New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll just let my attorney do the talking...

EDIT: That probably didn't help. I guess I'll just summarize. In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

 

[Darkmask]

So, as far as Isaac goes, a lot of people consider him a shoo-in for P:M and even SM4SH due to unrepped series, creativity of original game moves, and public demand, but there's what I am curious about, what is Isaac going to be gameplay-wise in P:M? His AT is based on the Psyenergy of Move, which, truth be told, is really not a very good representation of Isaac's potential, it's just a rudimentary puzzle solving move used on the world map (which is why I still used it in my moveset but underplayed it as a Throw along with Force, the punching version of Move).

So, what role will Isaac be? My idea again was centered around weak moves that could be charged, in the same vein of a level-based RPG character, where low level moves get stronger over time. All of Isaac's specials would be charged in three tiers from weak to moderate to strong. But that's just my idea.

Anyone else have an idea of what could make Isaac stand out, what would his schtik be? I mean we do have a character here that has no basis with anyone else already in Brawl or Melee due to being a character from a completely unrepped series, add to that although he's a sword fighter, he's much more of a mage knight, part powerful magic spells and part sword attack.

 

[MLGF]

TBH, I want to see what the PMBR does with absolute creative license, with the only requirement is to appease fans of the franchise, with a character.
Isaac is perfect for this. But I do think Isaac will get some charge moves.

Being positive that Isaac will be playable is setting myself up for disappointment, just like during Brawl days.

 

[arcticfox8]

I think Isaac should be PM's Little Mac. God Tier ground game, terribad air game.

 

[Banjodorf]

I feel like a character with terrible air game just would end up as a joke in the PM environment. All the top tier characters have amazing air games, and he'd just get wrecked like a boss! Especially since FD is the only flat stage.

I'm not saying they can't do it, just as long as it isn't as bad as Sm4sh Mac is looking in the air. I'm sure he'll be relatively balanced overall, but man, that air game doesn't hype me at all. Isaac deserves better than that.

 

[Solbliminal]

I think Isaac should be PM's Little Mac. God Tier ground game, terribad air game.

And Ray should be PMs Mega Man. Mad range tactics and swag areal combos.

I feel like a character with terrible air game just would end up as a joke in the PM environment. All the top tier characters have amazing air games, and he'd just get wrecked like a boss! Especially since FD is the only flat stage.

I'm not saying they can't do it, just as long as it isn't as bad as Sm4sh Mac is looking in the air. I'm sure he'll be relatively balanced overall, but man, that air game doesn't hype me at all. Isaac deserves better than that.

I don't think he was implying that Isaac would have absolutely garbage recovery. I think he was just making a relation to an existing character just for an idea of Isaac's metagame.

 

[Banjodorf]

And Ray should be PMs Mega Man. Mad range tactics and swag areal combos.



I don't think he was implying that Isaac would have absolutely garbage recovery. I think he was just making a relation to an existing character just for an idea of Isaac's metagame.

Alright then. Yeah, it's perfectly fine for him to have a much better ground than air game. It certainly makes sense what with the "Earth" powers and all.

I'm down.

 

[arcticfox8]

His aerials can be average/used to ground opponents.
I can see his up special being a vine tether that slams people into the ground, where Isaac will proceed to swag.

I think Isaac should keep the hand projectile in some form just so he can have an edgeguarding option.

 

[Sour Supreme]

From and earlier post of mine which you all seem to have ignored.


/discussion
Unless anyone wants to challenge me on my intentions.

I apologize if you thought I was pointing fun at you. It wasn't as much referencing what you said, as I understand what you meant. I just laugh at the idea that Sakurai controls everything Smash, which is far from what you meant to say.

 

[Solbliminal]

I'm down.

...where Isaac will proceed to swag.

But nobody can get down and swag better than...

He is your Eddy Gordo of Smash. You want to talk about ground game? He controls the dance floor.

 

[Cool Blue]

But nobody can get down and swag better than...



He is your Eddy Gordo of Smash. You want to talk about ground game? He controls the dance floor.

If you like him so much, then could you make a moveset for him?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I refuse to buy this 'terrible air game' bs on a fastfaller from a guy who rated Meta Knight a 6/10 in the Brawl strategy guide.

 

[Solbliminal]

If you like him so much, then could you make a moveset for him?

That depends on if anyone cares enough for me to make one. I mean honestly I wouldn't mind doing movesets for Jimmy, Ashley, Daroach, or Dixie. Which reminds me that I have free time today to work on that Ray moveset. So otherwise, just let me know what you guys want to see. I'll see what I can do.

 

[NisforSmash]

Legitimacy =/= professionalism. I would argue that PMBR are just as professional as any actual gaming corporation, even though they are not legitimate insofar as their game is a mod. Taking inspiration from someone is one thing, but making a decision just because they also made the same decision shows an unwillingness or inability to decide for yourself what is best.

The whole legitimacy =/= professionalism bit is valid however I'm not suggesting they make the same decision as him just because. I'm saying for them to look at the decision he made. Look at WHY he didn't include dark samus as a playable character. Look at the issue they're currently faced with (the ability to include 5 more characters but what characters should be chosen) and see if a similar decision can be made based on a similar reasoning.

And again, if PMBR just looked at all of Sakurai's design decisions, Project M would just be Brawl. Nothing more, nothing less. Because every decision Sakurai made led to Brawl. Every decision, then, regarding Smash could be applied to Project M. If you want the game Sakurai designed, then play the game Sakurai designed. I want to play the game PMBR designed, with the decisions PMBR made. While Sakurai's decisions created the base of the game, PMBR have taken it their own way. As such, they should continue to do things their way and make their own decisions.

I'm saying they definitely should take it their own way. But take inspiration from the reasoning in why sakurai made the decisions that he made.

No, it wasn't a jab at Brawl, it was a statement of fact. If PMBR made every decision just as Sakurai made it, the result would be Brawl. That isn't what they want, nor it should it be. They should do what they think is best for the game, not what Sakurai thinks is best. That's not to say there's something wrong with Brawl, but Project M is their take on the game and it should reflect their decisions, not Sakurai's.

Oh okay. I thought there was some malicious intent in that post. My mistake.

I stopped reading at this.

Look, just because the PMBR hasn't had a hand in developing every single SSB game / worked with SSB since the beginning doesn't mean their current attitude of going about with this mod is in any way unprofessional. Being involved with an official product doesn't automatically mean you know what's best or appropriate for it--Sakurai probably wouldn't know what extra 7 characters to add as DLC to Brawl any better than the Project M Backroom would.

Whatever they end up doing--considering the rest of their tireless efforts on stages, graphics (the new menu, etc.), and, most crucially, balance--we can be rest assured that, even if it doesn't satisfy everyone, will still be as sufficient as a "professional" developer's efforts, perhaps, dare I say, even more professional.

Yea I see where i goofed up in my previous statement with the professionalism bit. I concede in that regard.

Look man. I honestly believe you have no idea what you are talking about. To claim PMBR should make any decisions that other professionals do, is to claim they have no sense of professionalism themselves. If we are going to go about this your way, PMBR's first mistake was making a mod instead of their own game. Be gracious this mod even exists the way it does, because it took a very professional mindset to even make it possible. The PMBR has already dictated what will decide the character they choose, assuming they decide to make another character, and that is the overall popularity and demand of a character. And I'm pretty sure I don't have to break out the rule book to tell you what characters are eligible. Live with it and pick the characters you want to support instead of complicating such a simple matter.

I'm not so sure about your first statement. You can definitely be professional and make a similar decision to other professionals.

Quote from the Clone Engine Blogpost:

"Beyond legal restrictions, characters are chosen based on how popular they are as well as the unique gameplay and personality elements they can bring to the roster."

Although popularity is a factor I'm fairly certain that a lot of discussion goes on behind the scenes determining whether a character has the unique gameplay and personality elements to go with it.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

Also in the logical fallacy link.

"Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding"

I'm not going to make the claim that you don't have enough understanding to make a roster but it isn't fair either to disregard the reasoning behind sakurai's exclusion of certain characters being playable.

I apologize if you thought I was pointing fun at you. It wasn't as much referencing what you said, as I understand what you meant. I just laugh at the idea that Sakurai controls everything Smash, which is far from what you meant to say.

It's all good man. I'm just trying to defend myself.

 

[Solbliminal]

I'm not so sure about your first statement. You can definitely be professional and make a similar decision to other professionals.

Quote from the Clone Engine Blogpost:

"Beyond legal restrictions, characters are chosen based on how popular they are as well as the unique gameplay and personality elements they can bring to the roster."

Although popularity is a factor I'm fairly certain that a lot of discussion goes on behind the scenes determining whether a character has the unique gameplay and personality elements to go with it.

First off, there is absolutely no need to quote the PMBR to me. I've read that Clone Engine Blogpost forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside-down. I've been far more active about the Clone Engine discussion then you have. So there is literally no point in quoting anything they've said, unless it is new info to this entire thread.

Second, gameplay is something that should go without saying. But if you want to bring it up... The biggest reason Dark Samus was voted on was because she is an alternative to Ridley if the PMBR is unwilling to put in the workload, or is incapable of building the character. So yes, I'm well aware uniqueness is a factor, but so is time and resources:

"Bear in mind that we aren't actually making a character from scratch in the same manner that Nintendo did – instead, we begin with a clone of an existing character and then modify it from there. We also still lack the ability to create new projectiles and other independent items (known as "articles") from scratch. Luckily, with a lot of extensive work, the behavior and appearance of these articles can usually be edited enough to look new. Beyond article restrictions, we are also limited in our ability to add new special move properties, such as grabbing or homing. So we must always begin by identifying an existing character with roughly the right articles and special attacks for the job."

"We've estimated that creating all new animations for a character that live up to our quality standards would take at least 700 hours. This is why clones or partial clones are so appealing – by limiting the number of new animations created it cuts down the amount of time required substantially. That's not to say that new characters are entirely off limits, but the most viable proposals often start off of the base of another character. Think of Luigi – he shares many similar moves and animations with Mario, his base, but over time has been given more unique traits. Furthermore, his unique physics instantly shift his entire play style. Creating new play experiences in a polished manner as efficiently as possible is really the name of the game."

 

[Shin F.]

I'm saying they definitely should take it their own way. But take inspiration from the reasoning in why sakurai made the decisions that he made.

And that's the biggest flaw of your argument, really. We don't know Sakurai's reasoning behind making Dark Samus an Assist Trophy. Perhaps it was because she hasn't had so many appearances. Perhaps it's because there's already another, unrevealed Metroid rep like Ridley. Perhaps it's because he doesn't think she'd be popular. Perhaps it's because people would accuse her of being a clone no matter what he does with her. Perhaps it's because he just doesn't like her. We can't know his reasoning, therefore we cannot take it into account.

 

[Cool Blue]

That depends on if anyone cares enough for me to make one. I mean honestly I wouldn't mind doing movesets for Jimmy, Ashley, Daroach, or Dixie. Which reminds me that I have free time today to work on that Ray moveset. So otherwise, just let me know what you guys want to see. I'll see what I can do.

I, for one, would be down for movesets of any of the characters you mentioned.

 

[Solbliminal]

I, for one, would be down for movesets of any of the characters you mentioned.

Sounds great. Going to take a break from discussion thread though. I seriously need it. Hopefully when I come back, I'll have something to share.

 

[Bleck]

And that's the biggest flaw of your argument, really. We don't know Sakurai's reasoning behind making Dark Samus an Assist Trophy. Perhaps it was because she hasn't had so many appearances. Perhaps it's because there's already another, unrevealed Metroid rep like Ridley. Perhaps it's because he doesn't think she'd be popular. Perhaps it's because people would accuse her of being a clone no matter what he does with her. Perhaps it's because he just doesn't like her. We can't know his reasoning, therefore we cannot take it into account.

though to be fair all of those reasons are good enough

 

[Darkmask]

We do have to remember, the Metroid games are only super popular here in the US, in Japan, they're only meh.

 

[UltimateWario]

I'm just going to say this here because people still got it twisted.

The PMBR does not have representation on its list of criteria.
The idea of specific game representation is probably far less important than characters that can bring unique elements of play to the table. Popularity alone does have an effect though.

Which is why they have "Too much representation" as a negative point for characters from big franchises, and "Another Metroid rep" for Dark Samus and Ridley, right?

With that being said, Ridley has a lot of potential for a moveset, but a lot of that potential has probably been placed into charizard already..

So because they're both dragons, they can't be unique...?

 

[PlateProp]

So because they're both dragons, they can't be unique...?

For shame! Everyone knows Charizard is a Fire/Flying type!

I dont think PMBR will do Ridley just because his awkward proportions. Sure you can make the arguement that there are big characters, but seriously. Look at the proportion of Ridley's face to his actual body! Or his wings! Hitboxes would be a nightmare

 

[TrillyTroy]

Has anyone ever considered knuckles? I'd love to see him playable

 

[Cool Blue]

Has anyone ever considered knuckles? I'd love to see him playable

Check the OP. It says that third party characters are highly unlikely.

 

[Saito]

Which is why they have "Too much representation" as a negative point for characters from big franchises, and "Another Metroid rep" for Dark Samus and Ridley, right?

If by they, you mean the people in the clone engine thread then yes.

 

[NisforSmash]

First off, there is absolutely no need to quote the PMBR to me. I've read that Clone Engine Blogpost forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside-down. I've been far more active about the Clone Engine discussion then you have. So there is literally no point in quoting anything they've said, unless it is new info to this entire thread.

Second, gameplay is something that should go without saying. But if you want to bring it up... The biggest reason Dark Samus was voted on was because she is an alternative to Ridley if the PMBR is unwilling to put in the workload, or is incapable of building the character. So yes, I'm well aware uniqueness is a factor, but so is time and resources:

I only quoted it because it was a direct counter argument to a claim you presented earlier. While you may have been more active and have read the blogpost numerous times (both of which are somewhat irrelevant to the discussion), a comment you made wasn't in complete accordance with what your claiming.

The second part i can agree to.

And that's the biggest flaw of your argument, really. We don't know Sakurai's reasoning behind making Dark Samus an Assist Trophy. Perhaps it was because she hasn't had so many appearances. Perhaps it's because there's already another, unrevealed Metroid rep like Ridley. Perhaps it's because he doesn't think she'd be popular. Perhaps it's because people would accuse her of being a clone no matter what he does with her. Perhaps it's because he just doesn't like her. We can't know his reasoning, therefore we cannot take it into account.

I agree that we don't know his reasoning. But just because we don't know what it is specifically doesn't mean we cannot take into account that it was good enough to warrant his decision which is the biggest flaw with your argument whereas the biggest one with mine is not taking into account that we don't know the exact reasoning.

If this sounds about right let's end the argument and get back to discussing characters. Otherwise I'd be glad to talk about anything else you want to address.

 

[Shin F.]

I agree that we don't know his reasoning. But just because we don't know what it is specifically doesn't mean we cannot take into account that it was good enough to warrant his decision which is the biggest flaw with your argument whereas the biggest one with mine is not taking into account that we don't know the exact reasoning.

To take into account his reasoning when we don't actually know what it is would be to just follow him blindly. Are you really okay with that? Just following what other people do without really questioning why? For all we know, his reason was stupid as ****. His reason for not adding Villager in Brawl was that he wasn't a fighter. You know what? Even Sakurai has decided that he was wrong about Villager's potential. Sakurai's mysterious, unknown "reasoning" isn't good enough for me. It never will be. PMBR are not Sakurai.

 

[NisforSmash]

To take into account his reasoning when we don't actually know what it is would be to just follow him blindly. Are you really okay with that? Just following what other people do without really questioning why? For all we know, his reason was stupid as ****. His reason for not adding Villager in Brawl was that he wasn't a fighter. You know what? Even Sakurai has decided that he was wrong about Villager's potential. Sakurai's mysterious, unknown "reasoning" isn't good enough for me. It never will be. PMBR are not Sakurai.

You previously listed possibilities for what his reasoning might be. I'll give you that we can't know for certain what his reasoning was exactly but all of the reasons you listed are possibilities that we can assume might have been taken to account. I don't want to blindly follow him but you shouldn't blindly assume that his reasoning isn't valid just because you don't know what it is.

 

[MLGF]

So it seems only the A tier characters, checking out the old clone request list, are the only ones that are popular without controversy.
Most other characters have a lot of mixed reaction (Black Shadow) or no large pool of votes (Masked Man). Generally I think it'd be best to choose characters based off of such a small/broken pool

The five slots are quite nice. They have enough room to put in some heavy requests, and who the PM:BR wants as well.

I'm not trying demerit anything, but I don't think the votes in this topic hold any merit, unless you were voting for someone everyone is also voting for (Ridley)

 

[Sour Supreme]

I don't expect Masked Man to make it in the Clone Engine. Even so, I will cry if he doesn't. My imagination has created too much hype for my body to handle.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

To take into account his reasoning when we don't actually know what it is would be to just follow him blindly. Are you really okay with that? Just following what other people do without really questioning why? For all we know, his reason was stupid as ****. His reason for not adding Villager in Brawl was that he wasn't a fighter. You know what? Even Sakurai has decided that he was wrong about Villager's potential. Sakurai's mysterious, unknown "reasoning" isn't good enough for me. It never will be. PMBR are not Sakurai.

Okay, look. His point was specifically that we should question Sakurai's choices, so that they could be analyzed and something could be gleaned from them. Also, taking something into account definitely does not mean following, much less in a blind manner. This is quite clearly misrepresentation his argument.
You are assuming a specific intent from our defendant here and it's allowing this argument to drag on far longer than it should. Not to mention it is alienating a particular member who has expressed willingness to put the argument aside several times and contribute to other, more useful discussion.

I do sympathize with your side of the argument and would like to assure you that I think you contribute plenty of good discussion to this topic as a whole. Maybe it's time to raise the truce flag on this one? It's hardly an argument anymore so much a perpetual series of misinterpretation and misunderstandings.
If not for the purpose of avoiding an internet dogpile, then think of the strawmen, okay?
They had families.
And now their lives were cut short by the merciless edge of your rhetoric, mere collateral in a greater conflict.
Such is the internet in times of war.

 

[arcticfox8]

Here's the thing tho
The only characters we can get are the characters Sakurai doesn't pick
So we can't really judge a character because Sakurai didn't pick them
The PMBR will come to it's own conclusions

 

[Solbliminal]

Okay, look. His point was specifically that we should question Sakurai's choices, so that they could be analyzed and something could be gleaned from them. Also, taking something into account definitely does not mean following, much less in a blind manner. This is quite clearly misrepresentation his argument.
You are assuming a specific intent from our defendant here and it's allowing this argument to drag on far longer than it should. Not to mention it is alienating a particular member who has expressed willingness to put the argument aside several times and contribute to other, more useful discussion.

I do sympathize with your side of the argument and would like to assure you that I think you contribute plenty of good discussion to this topic as a whole. Maybe it's time to raise the truce flag on this one? It's hardly an argument anymore so much a perpetual series of misinterpretation and misunderstandings.
If not for the purpose of avoiding an internet dogpile, then think of the strawmen, okay?
They had families.
And now their lives were cut short by the merciless edge of your rhetoric, mere collateral in a greater conflict.
Such is the internet in times of war.

TLDR; Difference in opinion. Stop arguing. It's going nowhere.

I only quoted it because it was a direct counter argument to a claim you presented earlier. While you may have been more active and have read the blogpost numerous times (both of which are somewhat irrelevant to the discussion), a comment you made wasn't in complete accordance with what your claiming.

The second part i can agree to..

Mmkay.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Here's the thing tho
The only characters we can get are the characters Sakurai doesn't pick
So we can't really judge a character because Sakurai didn't pick them
The PMBR will come to it's own conclusions

Yep. Don't recall saying anything indicating I disagreed.
Here's what's also the thing; as much as we identify with PM, which is great, it is an excellent game, we are not the PMBR.
Sakurai's goal was to make a fighting game with content important to Nintendo's history, with major characters from important series/franchises taking the coveted spot as playable fighter. Isn't PM following in those footsteps, in order to be both a worthy successor and an improvement in overall game design? Seeing as both teams of developers have a common goal in mind, it isn't unreasonable to speculate that they might make similar decisions. The criteria each uses for deeming importance may be slightly different, but they are still relate-able processes.
NisforSmash never said that the PMBR should make the same decision as Sakurai, just that he expected they would, maybe even assumed (gasp!). Based on what was written in response, what he said was taken the wrong way in general. Even after attempting to revise his viewpoint, people are repeatedly imposing their original interpretation onto the new argument and refusing to adapt it.

 

[Darkmask]

For shame! Everyone knows Charizard is a Fire/Flying type!

I dont think PMBR will do Ridley just because his awkward proportions. Sure you can make the arguement that there are big characters, but seriously. Look at the proportion of Ridley's face to his actual body! Or his wings! Hitboxes would be a nightmare

I don't think that would be a problem for them, in fact they may even invite the challenge. Don't forget, Mewtwo also has a funky proportion, and they had to rebuild him completely from scratch and figure out his odd hitboxes as well.

 

[Solbliminal]

For shame! Everyone knows Charizard is a Fire/Flying type!

I dont think PMBR will do Ridley just because his awkward proportions. Sure you can make the arguement that there are big characters, but seriously. Look at the proportion of Ridley's face to his actual body! Or his wings! Hitboxes would be a nightmare

The trade off is that he would also have a lot of uncovered hurtboxes. There is really nothing ridiculous about Ridley. His advantage is just as easily a disadvantage.

 

[UltimateWario]

Heh, if they have decided to do Ridley, they'll certainly have their work cut out for them. Though, having a competitively-viable, excellent-looking Ridley would be quite the amazing addition to the PMBR's resume.

We'll see in time if they'll undertake the challenge or not. Honestly, I don't care about Metroid representation (much as I love the series), I just want to play as Ridley. If they decide not to do him, I'd rather they didn't do Dark Samus as some sort of "apology".

But, again, I like Dark Samus and would probably play her anyway.

 

[NisforSmash]

Just out of curiousity which Ridley model do you think they'd use for inspiration in their design?
Personally i think the Melee intro Ridley would work best.

 

[Giygacoal]

Just out of curiousity which Ridley model do you think they'd use for inspiration in their design?
Personally i think the Melee intro Ridley would work best.

Definitely that one for the model itself. The blue swap could be from the old Metroid 1 drawing, and the red swap would have to be the one from the cover of Super Metroid. On the topic of palette swaps, I think there should also be a black Alien one.

 

[NisforSmash]

Definitely that one for the model itself. The blue swap could be from the old Metroid 1 drawing, and the red swap would have to be the one from the cover of Super Metroid. On the topic of palette swaps, I think there should also be a black Alien one.

The one thing that i can't get over about any Ridley model is his eyes. This might be strange but part of what allows me to connect with a character is their eyes and Ridley's i just can't connect with. Maybe if they were redesigned to be more like a combination of Mewtwos and Charizards....