New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Cool Blue]

I spy Saito. Waiting on that Shadow moveset bro. You got me anxious.

Yeah I am waiting to see what he comes up with too.

 

[Darkmask]

I like it a lot! Fantastic side special idea. I believe there's actually a PSA that uses Gaia like that as Isaac's down-b, so great job coming up with that.

And although unintentional, by using Gaia as Isaac's Special, it makes for a perfect move for Kirby to copy, since it won't include any projectiles, or any additional items (issues that plagued Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Roy's sword).

I would like to see Punji used as well though, was thinking perhaps it could acts as Isaac's dash attack ...

Dash Attack: Punji, when Isaac dashes he leaves a trail of bamboo offshoots around him and behind him that quickly retract back into the ground.

I could even see Punji being Isaac's Up Attack, in addition to the sword skills, Isaac can summon a few sharp bamboo chutes that spring straight up.

 

[Saito]

I spy Saito. Waiting on that Shadow moveset bro. You got me anxious.

Yeah I am waiting to see what he comes up with too.

UGHHHHHH

Why does it feel like I'm doing an assignment lol.

Since im about to start. I gotta put in my copy of sonic battle and relook at all of shadow's moves.

 

[Solbliminal]

UGHHHHHH

Why does it feel like I'm doing an assignment lol.

Since im about to start. I gotta put in my copy of sonic battle and relook at all of shadow's moves.

Well take your time. I was just poking fun at you. I mean it isn't like I've had the time to post my Ray moveset either. No pressure man.

 

[Cool Blue]

UGHHHHHH

Why does it feel like I'm doing an assignment lol.

Since im about to start. I gotta put in my copy of sonic battle and relook at all of shadow's moves.

It is OK. No pressure.
Edit- I'm thinking of making a potential moveset for Dark Samus. Oh the possibilities.

 

[TheNotSoShyGuy]

UGHHHHHH

Why does it feel like I'm doing an assignment lol.

Since im about to start. I gotta put in my copy of sonic battle and relook at all of shadow's moves.

Don't go insane like I did for when you create your moveset. When I created my version of Waluigi's moveset, I pretty much went insane trying to perfect it. I guess in the end I was pleased with the first draft, but it is never finished until it is finished. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

 

[Saito]

Shadow The Hedgehog

Anything you say about him is invalid because he is an Edgemaster.
​

Ah yes, Shadow the hedgehog. One of the most controversial characters to even consider as an addition to smash brothers. A lot of people hate the sonic fanbase, hate the new sonic games, and definitely hate this guy right here. It's probably because he was immensely popular at a time. Then Sonic went downhill to most people and Shadow got to star in his own game which pretty much overdid everything that he stood for. Sonic adventure 2 Shadow was probably when he was at his best and the only real reasons to not like him was either that you hated antagonists that were serious, or you didn't like the fact that he was another hedgehog. That's for another time though...

While he shares many similarities with sonic in terms of appearance, and height, his fighting style tends to differ greatly (where they actually have fighting )
While sonic's moves can be interpreted as mainly a brawler, Shadow's can be seen as having much more finesse, but having a kick focus. Other than being amazing at kicking, second only to Chun Li, Shadow also tends to imbue his attacks with Chaos Energy. It's kind of what puts him over sonic to be blunt. Nonetheless, it makes him even more fearsome,

Rambling aside, let's get into these moves.
​

• Jab : AA : Head kick followed by a kick inwards towards the stomach.
  
  Second and third hit of the image. Faster though.
• Ftilt : Spinning kick inwards. Preceded by a step forward.
• Utilt : Two upward kicks. Similar to vBrawl sonic's Utilt. two kicks instead of three. Good for juggling.
• Dtilt : Dash slide past the enemy. Enemy sent flying similarly to DK's dash attack. Relatively long start up time.
• Fsmash : Throws out balled fist with Chaos energy imbued. Sends enemies straight upwards.
• Usmash : Back flip kick. Similar to fox, but not nearly as powerful.
• Dsmash :
  
  4th hit of the image. Very powerful but long start up like in the image.
• Nair : Sonic's Nair, Sends enemies upwards instead of away.
• Fair : Snap's finger's and a small burst of chaos energy attacks a set distance away from Shadow. Good knockback. Spacing is key. Short ending lag
• Dair : Dive kick like Sonic's but does not force Shadow downwards. Extremely powerful spike when hit with sweetspot. Pushes enemies away when hit at any other point.
• Bair : A backwards kick most similar to Fox's vBrawl Bair. Faster start up, slightly less power. Sends enemies away at a nasty horizontal angle curving downwards.
• Uair : Backflip kick. Only hits in front to right above shadow's head. Relatively powerful.
• Nspecial : Chaos spear. Chargeable. Shoots straight forward on the ground. Shoots at a 45 degree angle downward's in mid air.
• Fspecial (Ground) : A dash on the ground. Has a start up but relatively fast when used on the ground. Propels shadow forward at a speed slightly slower than sonic's max running speed. Able to start a dash from it near the starting frames. Later frames would be similar to changing directions during a full speed run. Turning during the later frames of this move can hit the enemy similar to Squirtle's Dash turn attack. Functions similarly to a dash. Can crouch/dash attack/jump during it.
• Fspecial (Air) : Air dash straight forward. does no damage, but can be hit during it. Cancel's aerial momentum. Able to act after the distance of the air dash has been covered. Distance similar to that of Fox/Falco Illusion.
• Uspecial : Chaos control : Literally mewtwo's teleport but without all the acting out of it.
• Dspecial : Chaos blast : Ball of energy surrounds Shadow. pull's enemies inwards then pushes on final blow. Can be charged. Charge cannot be stored. Stronger with charge. Super armor during usage.
• Fgrab : put's palm on the enemy's stomach (or face in shorter character's case) and pushes them away with a blast of chaos energy.
• Dgrab : put's enemy on the ground then essentially does the Fgrab downwards. Bounces enemy.
• Ugrab : Essentially the same as Fgrab and Dgrab but upwards.
• Bgrab : Throws enemy behind him and roundhouse kicks enemy.

Shadow traits.

• Slow Acceleration
• Max speed almost as fast as sonic
• Similar grab range to sonic
• Very good wavedash

My name is Shadow. I'm the world's ultimate life form.
There's no time for games. Farewell!
​

Uhhh, I don't know how to finish up this post this time.
Just consider it though.

I do not condone the events in "Shadow the Hedgehog"​

 

[heroscott]

Do we have a final count reveal yet??? =/

 

[Bleck]

This drivel is all I'm getting out of your post.

Yeah, it's way more likely that I'm just talking out of my ass than the genre that's widely considered critically to be by far the most stagnant and repetitive of all possibly has elements that are, well, stagnant and repetitive.

I can't recall the cliche "Power of Friendship" thing playing any role in either Xenoblade or Golden Sun.

Note that I also said "or whatever" - I could provide an exhaustive list of every boring anime trope that pervades both games (which, I should note, are some of the few JRPGs I consider to be good), but I don't think it'd matter to somebody who clearly isn't already bored to tears by this junk.

So they use swords. So what? So does Link, so does Marth, so does Pit and Meta Knight and more.

yeah look at all those swordguys it would totally be a shame if Sakurai (/PMBR) didn't cram another one into Smash 4 (/Project M)

A lot of people hate the sonic fanbase, hate the new sonic games, and definitely hate this guy right here.​

Yes.

 

[ThreeSided]

Why are we talking about Shadow? He literally got the bottom spot in the vote. <.<

Shouldn't we be discussing move sets for characters toward the top?

 

[Bleck]

I don't care if people post movesets and stuff 'cause it's a fun thing for people but can you just not post enormous pictures of the character in said posts please I mean yes I know who Shadow The Hedgehog is thank you no sir I don't need to know what he looks like

 

[Saito]

I don't care if people post movesets and stuff 'cause it's a fun thing for people but can you just not post enormous pictures of the character in said posts please I mean yes I know who Shadow The Hedgehog is thank you no sir I don't need to know what he looks like

Presentation.

So no.

Why are we talking about Shadow? He literally got the bottom spot in the vote. <.<

Shouldn't we be discussing move sets for characters toward the top?

We're free to discuss candidates for the clone engine.

He is a candidate. Lowest on the list, but a candidate nonetheless.

 

[Shin F.]

Yeah, it's way more likely that I'm just talking out of my *** than the genre that's widely considered critically to be by far the most stagnant and repetitive of all possibly has elements that are, well, stagnant and repetitive.

I agree, it's far more likely that you're talking out of your ass.

Note that I also said "or whatever" - I could provide an exhaustive list of every boring anime trope that pervades both games (which, I should note, are some of the few JRPGs I consider to be good), but I don't think it'd matter to somebody who clearly isn't already bored to tears by this junk.

Tropes aren't bad. What you find boring, others might find entertaining.

yeah look at all those swordguys it would totally be a shame if Sakurai (/PMBR) didn't cram another one into Smash 4 (/Project M)

There are far more characters who use their fists or feet. I guess we should discount any more characters who can punch or kick.

 

[Bleck]

Tropes aren't bad.

whatever you say bub

There are far more characters who use their fists or feet. I guess we should discount any more characters who can punch or kick.

Yes! Unless they do so in a way that isn't more or less the same as a character that already exists except faster/slower and weaker/stronger with different knockbacks and whatever.

Note how Mario and Little Mac both punch dudes, but aren't at all similar to each other. Now, note how Marth and Ike are basically the same character with differing speed and strength. What does Shulk have to separate him from this trend?

 

[Shin F.]

Now, note how Marth and Ike are basically the same character with differing speed and strength.

....
..........


That is the most outright stupid comparison between Smash characters I have ever seen, bar none.

Marth and Ike? The same? Far from it! At least if you'd said Marth and Roy, I could see how you could come to the conclusion, but Marth and Ike?

Oh, my. This argument isn't even worth it with you.

 

[arcticfox8]

Note how Mario and Little Mac both punch dudes, but aren't at all similar to each other. Now, note how Marth and Ike are basically the same character with differing speed and strength. What does Shulk have to separate him from this trend?

GG

 

[Bleck]

That is the most outright stupid comparison between Smash characters I have ever seen, bar none.

How so?

 

[Shin F.]

How so?

Marth and Ike are nothing alike in how they use their weapons. About the only attack that is pretty much the same is Counter. And one move does not a similar character make. (See: Mario and Luigi)

In a similar fashion, a few such players assume Marth and Ike to be clones or semi-clones as well, due to them both being swordsmen, having similar appearances, hailing from the same universe, and having a mostly identical down special move in Counter, as well as having neutral special moves that both involve charging up to unleash a strong blow. However, Counter is the only move that these characters truly share (and even that has different animations), and the two have different animations for every single one of their other moves, along with radically different physics.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, marth and ike are pretty much chalk and cheese.

 

[Darkmask]

Have an idea for a Final Smash for Isaac!

Planetary!

The concept of this Final Smash is actually quite similar to that of Ganondorf's own Final Smash, as Isaac combines the powers of Earth and Heaven. Isaac starts with a powerful Gaia, that will cause any opponent currently in front of him to be sucked into the ground, before Isaac casts Planetary, although instead of like Ganon which goes vertically, Issac's comes diagonally from the sky, giving the illusion of a dragon of holy fire descending from the heavens.

 

[Bleck]

Marth and Ike are nothing alike in how they use their weapons.

Forward tilt is a horizontal swipe. Forward smash is an overhead downward slash. Up tilt is a vertical swipe upwards. Neutral air involves a circular slash around them. Forward air is a downward slash. Back air is a quick turn-around followed by a slash. Down air is a downwards vertical slash. Down Special is the same. Up Special looks different for both of them, but are conceptually the same (the sword goes up and whoosh so do they), though Ike's also has the downward portion.

Not all of their moves are the same, and from a gameplay perspective they play very differently, but the fact of the matter is that Marth and Ike share a large portion of their moveset.

 

[ThreeSided]

Punching and kicking is sort of "basic". It's not the punch or kick that's interesting, it's how they use it. On the other hand, swords just feel like swords. It's the same general idea: I have a long weapon to hit you with from far away that moves in an arch. Sure, there are different sword styles, but it's the general sentiment and it just gets a little old. There are a lot more things you can do with a punch or kick than there are with swords. You can swing a sword, and you can poke with a sword. Granted, not many pokers are out there, so I would be ok with a character with a rapier sort of style, but I don't know if there are any that would do that. If you think the pool to pull from for sword attacks isn't small, just take a look at all the sword moves in the game. Ike literally looks like Nintendo struggling to make original sword moves.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Forward tilt is a horizontal swipe. Forward smash is an overhead downward slash. Up tilt is a vertical swipe upwards. Neutral air involves a circular slash around them. Forward air is a downward slash. Back air is a quick turn-around followed by a slash. Down air is a downwards vertical slash. Down Special is the same. Up Special looks different for both of them, but are conceptually the same (the sword goes up and whoosh so do they), though Ike's also has the downward portion.

Not all of their moves are the same, and from a gameplay perspective they play very differently, but the fact of the matter is that Marth and Ike share a large portion of their moveset.

I agree

Ike and bowser both have hair, link also shares same colour hair as pikachu's body. Mario is pretty much Luigi's clone too, they just wear different hats.

These clones should all be removed imo

 

[Bleck]

Wow, you're really good at sarcasm! That sure showed me how wrong I was about those facts that I presented.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wow, you're really good at sarcasm! That sure showed me how wrong I was about those facts that I presented.

Good sir, you are being unreasonable.

Of the moves that you listed, only Counter and MAYBE forward smash are anything similar.

Not to mention that both characters play completely differently.

Next you'll be trying to tell us that Side B is the same...

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Forward tilt is a horizontal swipe. Forward smash is an overhead downward slash. Up tilt is a vertical swipe upwards. Neutral air involves a circular slash around them. Forward air is a downward slash. Back air is a quick turn-around followed by a slash. Down air is a downwards vertical slash. Down Special is the same. Up Special looks different for both of them, but are conceptually the same (the sword goes up and whoosh so do they), though Ike's also has the downward portion.

Not all of their moves are the same, and from a gameplay perspective they play very differently, but the fact of the matter is that Marth and Ike share a large portion of their moveset.

I get what you're getting at, but you really are asking for people to turn this into a sarcastic semantics/wording battle here. Nair, bair, ftilt, and dair aren't even in the same plane of motion, for example. That's a big deal in a 2D fighter. Proclaiming them the same by using extremely generalized language fails to prove much. If you'd care to provide an example that could be closely analyzed (i.e. not Little Mac, given that he hasn't been released yet) I'm reasonably confident similar parallels could be drawn between two swordless characters (should I be getting bored of straight jabs and flip kicks by now?)

 

[Shin F.]

Forward tilt is a horizontal swipe. Forward smash is an overhead downward slash. Up tilt is a vertical swipe upwards. Neutral air involves a circular slash around them. Forward air is a downward slash. Back air is a quick turn-around followed by a slash. Down air is a downwards vertical slash. Down Special is the same. Up Special looks different for both of them, but are conceptually the same (the sword goes up and whoosh so do they), though Ike's also has the downward portion.

Not all of their moves are the same, and from a gameplay perspective they play very differently, but the fact of the matter is that Marth and Ike share a large portion of their moveset.

The fact is, that this is a game, and thus, the most important aspect of it is - ya know - the gameplay. Those little differences like range, speed and power are more than enough to consider them separate moves, even if the purely cosmetic animations are the same (you'll note that they are not, in fact, the same in even that way.) Let me just quote PMBR on this.

Think of Luigi – he shares many similar moves and animations with Mario, his base, but over time has been given more unique traits. Furthermore, his unique physics instantly shift his entire play style.

The animations themselves mean very little.

 

[ThreeSided]

Good sir, you are being unreasonable.

Of the moves that you listed, only Counter and MAYBE forward smash are anything similar.

Not to mention that both characters play completely differently.

Next you'll be trying to tell us that Side B is the same...

It's not all about play, a lot of it is about flavor and visuals. Swinging swords, it's just the same stuff. You can tell that Nintendo struggled to make Ike different. His brawl incarnation plays quite differently than he did in his actual games. We was one of the fastest characters in the game, and did some fancy, quick sword maneuvers. In brawl they went so far as to give Ike an incredibly unrealistic sound to his sword hitting to make him seem different. Even his moves don't all seem quite right, like Uair, Usmash and Dsmash. That thing is hardly even a sword anymore. It's a club.

 

[Bleck]

Of the moves that you listed, only Counter and MAYBE forward smash are anything similar.

The fact is, that this is a game, and thus, the most important aspect of it is - ya know - the gameplay. Those little differences like range, speed and power are more than enough to consider them separate moves, even if the purely cosmetic animations are the same (you'll note that they are not, in fact, the same in even that way.)

Keep in mind that I'm talking physically, here - Marth and Ike's forward airs are completely different in terms of strength, speed and knockback, but physically, they're essentially the same move.

What I'm getting at here is that how a character acts and moves is, despite what people seem to be implying, pretty important to how a game feels when you're playing it. I'm not saying that Marth and Ike play similarly - but imagine if Smash Bros was forty different variations of Mario. Like, every single character is Mario, except Mario 3 attacks more slowly and has a longer reach, Mario 17 has really fast moves with no reach, and Mario 39 has attacks that take three seconds to get to the hitbox but are all OHKOs. Are you saying that this game would still be interesting to play?

I posit that not only would nobody like this game, but that Sakurai's also reached the same conclusion - which is why he's stated that he'd be focusing on more unique characters in Smash 4 instead of a larger number of characters that are visually similar (even if, again, they play differently).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's not all about play, a lot of it is about flavor and visuals. Swinging swords, it's just the same stuff. You can tell that Nintendo struggled to make Ike different. His brawl incarnation plays quite differently than he did in his actual games. We was one of the fastest characters in the game, and did some fancy, quick sword maneuvers. In brawl they went so far as to give Ike an incredibly unrealistic sound to his sword hitting to make him seem different. Even his moves don't all seem quite right, like Uair, Usmash and Dsmash. That thing is hardly even a sword anymore. It's a club.

Nevertheless they are different. To say that ftilt, utilt and down air etc are the same between Marth and Ike is absurd.

Swords are boring, like you said, swinging swords; it's all the same stuff especially when you have a realistic character doing the swinging (MK's sword swinging is significantly more cartoony, Ike or Marth can't twist their bodies that way or they'd look stupid.)

 

[ThreeSided]

Nevertheless they are different. To say that ftilt, utilt and down air etc are the same between Marth and Ike is absurd.

Swords are boring, like you said, swinging swords; it's all the same stuff especially when you have a realistic character doing the swinging (MK's sword swinging is significantly more cartoony, Ike or Marth can't twist their bodies that way or they'd look stupid.)

MK gets a pass because of how unique he is. Links get a pass because projectiles are a huge part of their game. But when you get into relatively realistic sword users, it's not so easy to make things significantly different.

 

[Bleck]

Nevertheless they are different. To say that ftilt, utilt and down air etc are the same between Marth and Ike is absurd.

Explain to me how Marth swinging his sword horizontally is meaningfully different from Ike swinging his sword horizontally.

Swords are boring, like you said, swinging swords; it's all the same stuff especially when you have a realistic character doing the swinging (MK's sword swinging is significantly more cartoony, Ike or Marth can't twist their bodies that way or they'd look stupid.)

Note that the original topic of discussion was me claiming that it'd be more or less a waste of time to include Shulk in Smash Bros. since his moveset would be ever-so-slightly different rehashes of Marth/Ike/Roy attacks.

 

[Shin F.]

No, they are not physically the same moves. Not even in their animation, for the most part. The only way they can be seen as similar is by describing them verbally as sword swings, which you know is insufficient to truly describe the movements.

 

[Bleck]

Saying that they aren't similar doesn't count as an explanation as to how they aren't similar. Please try again.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Explain to me how Marth swinging his sword horizontally is meaningfully different from Ike swinging his sword horizontally.

if you call this horizontal one more time I will murder you

Edit: I won't actually murder you

Edit 2: Probably

 

[Shin F.]

Saying that they aren't similar doesn't count as an explanation as to how they aren't similar. Please try again.

Saying that they are doesn't suffice, either. One need only look at the animations to see that they're different. It's not my job to help you use your eyes. If you can't manage that on your own, there's no help for you.

 

[Saito]

Just depends on how you want to look at it all to be honest.

There are many ways you can punch a person. But in the end, it's still just a punch. Whether or not it's twisting or curving or whatever, it's still a punch.

That's essentially the sword's differences when it comes to the angles it's swung at, the power that's put into it or whatever.

The only difference is that you can see the difference in the punch, whereas the difference in the sword is really only noticeable to the person using it, and the person getting hit by an attack they thought they could block.

 

[Bleck]

One need only look at the animations to see that they're different.

Saying that the answer to my question exists, but not actually explaining what it is, doesn't count either. Please try again.

if you call this horizontal one more time I will murder you

I guess that's more vertical than I was picturing in my head, but it doesn't really matter.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Do you guys play this game?
The evidence is right there, but you guys just insist.
"They're swinging swords around, so they are clearly the same."
It doesn't take a genius.

 

[Bleck]

I'm not saying that they're the literally exactly the same - I'm saying that the distinction between the moves that are similar aren't visually meaningful enough to support the idea that it's worth including another character who would likely function along the same paradigms.