New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[EdgeTheLucas]

No offense to Metal Gear, but putting in a second Metal Gear rep over somebody from Advance Wars would be pretty awful. AW has had rough enough treatment in Smash as is.

I don't think anybody expecting newcomers to be nigh-exact clones is giving the PMBR enough credit.

Even if Sami did end up playing very similarly to Snake, as Banjodorf observed a moveset similar to Snake's actually makes a great deal of sense for Sami.

I'm not against Advance Wars at all. And I addressed that I understand where fans are coming from, I'd like an Advance Wars character myself. I'd just have a hard time replacing one of the other three Nintendo characters to make room for an MGS character to have Andy / Sami unique, which is what I'd like him / her to be.

I only brought this all up because of Knuckles, remember.

 

[JediLink]

I like playing Ganon. I don't want Ganon with a different moveset. The most influential incarnation of Ganon to me as a player is his incarnation in Smash. Would it be fair to me, being a Smash Bros. fan, if someone changed his moveset based on games I don't care about? The popular argument is it's not fair to Zelda fans, but would it be fair to Smash fans like me?

Son, you need to get some Ocarina of Time in your life immediately.

 

[arcticfox8]

Son, you need to get some Ocarina of Time in your life immediately.

I like the "2D" Zeldas, but none of them have Ganondorf in them. I'm trying to play Wind Waker, though. Not into it so far.

MOTHER BRAIN FOR CLONE ENGINE

 

[Bleck]

Would it be fair to me, being a Smash Bros. fan, if someone changed his moveset based on games I don't care about? The popular argument is it's not fair to Zelda fans, but would it be fair to Smash fans like me?

Yes.

 

[arcticfox8]

Well when you put it like that

 

[PsionicSabreur]

No, but you have to take into account that he didn't have a lot to work with since he spent all his time in a car, so he had to be reimagined for Smash. Ganondorf DID have a lot to work with though, which is what baffled so many Zelda fans who played him. So much imagination could've been implemented into his character, and he wound up a clone of Captain Falcon.

I know your stance on this issue, so I'll just present my point as is and leave it at that.

P.S. plus if people want to get really liberal with the "But Ganondorf is shown using his fists in the Zelda games sometimes" argument, okay, fine, but I'll just ask you this: why give him a punch like a Falcon Punch as his neutral-B specifically? Why give him a kick that functions pretty darn similarly to a Falcon Kick as his down-B? Just, if he's such a great fistfighter and kickboxer, why isn't he his OWN fistfighter and kickboxer?

So yeah, those arguments bug me, along with the"Triforce of Power" argument.

I really don't want to start a war here, but just to be clear, I think these arguments are not made to defend Smash Ganon's adherence to canon, but rather why the Black Shadow/Ganondorf idea is not a necessary step in correcting it.
First off, C. Falcon was given a moveset based on stylized, yet generic martial arts, probably carried over from the early stages of Smash Bros when they hadn't slapped Mario's face on it yet. I'm fairly sure Falcon does not have a claim to all flying kicks and punches when they're not even from his canon in the first place (also, see that gun he always keeps holstered?). If Sami off of Snake is not such a crime against nature because generic military weaponry, why would it be to leave Ganondorf as a clone of generic martial arts and then modify him into his own style from there? Even now, Ganon has a lot of moves that feel like they belong to him (note: not to Black Shadow) such as jab, ftilt, dtilt, side-b, fair, dair, etc. and there's nothing stopping that list from being improved upon.

If Ganon were turned into a pure sword character, for example, I think I'd be disappointed. He'd have the same slashes and jabs that the other sword characters had, and frankly this would accurately represent a boring pool of sword techniques from the games, too. Same goes for magic (although I'd love to see his trusty electric volleyball, he portrays few other iconic abilities that would translate well to Project M's engine), Ganondorf is a lot more than your typical evil sorceror. He commands tremendous strength in everything he does, rather than just conjuring curses and the like to deal with his foes, and I think he is at his most interesting when this shows in his character.
Not to mention, his use of blades has nearly always been out of his own sense of ceremony or ego (and, really, the sole purpose of his swordsmanship is to act as a foil to Link's for that one showdown, both as part of his arrogant nature and in a literary sense from the writers). I wouldn't argue this myself, but if someone liked that he reserves his blade for such attempts to strike down Link, in a sense, I'd actually respect that opinion, to an extent.
This idealogy could even translate to Smash quite well. Ganon's sword use is inconsistent, but he tends to view it almost as an execution tool, rather than a truly preferred method of fighting. Even in TP he often charges in and elbows or kicks Link to open him up to the intended sword strike. If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense for Smash Ganondorf to strike with faster physical attacks to open up his opponents to the more devastating finishers? Sword attacks could easily be worked into Ganon's movepool in this way; it fits right in with how he plays already, and it would prevent the scenario of having a lack of canon sword techniques to draw an entire arsenal from, or worse, a Ganon that sits back and pokes all day. Swordplay doesn't have to be added in great volume as the backbone of Ganon's neutral play to accurately represent how he uses it in-game, although a few spacing moves could still make use of the sword (nair in particular would be nice to have a sword equivalent of).
Look at some other characters, too; Ness quite obviously prefers to use a bat, yet he didn't need a whole set of bat swings to represent that, all it took was fsmash. Samus using kick attacks and arm cannon punches isn't canon, either. Mewtwo doesn't have so many tail attacks, Zelda doesn't kick things, Peach prefers weapons in Super Mario RPG, Olimar doesn't use Pikmin swords, Kirby doesn't use extensive kickboxing, Lucario's existence in general, off the top of my head. Yet, they all manage to feel canon because there are references to their canon appearances worked into a style that is designed to work well in a fighting game. How different is Ganondorf from these to deserve getting his current design scrapped?

And yes, Ganon Punch is a thing in the first place because Sakurai was painfully insensitive to Zelda canon. Same with Wizard's Foot. That doesn't mean the potential for improved design should be denied as a whole because it's too difficult to look past the faults of the character. The fact remains that a heavy reliance on brute strength makes sense as a basis for Ganondorf. In fact, it really captures a feeling of power that the other fighting styles would likely fail to recreate. Now all it takes are the details to make him his own character.
So please, if these arguments are going to bother you, don't misrepresent them, is all. I do believe I've written more than enough on several occasions to stop arguing on this subject, but I would really prefer not to fall silent on a misunderstanding, so, I hope these arguments aren't as obnoxious given the context.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ike doesn't telekinetically propel himself into people's faces but you don't hear me complaining about that

 

[Banjodorf]

Ike doesn't telekinetically propel himself into people's faces but you don't hear me complaining about that

Yeah, still not entirely sure where the hell Quick Draw came from.

Oh well. At least he's got Aether. I'm not even sure what a Dolphin Slash is.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, still not entirely sure where the hell Quick Draw came from.

Oh well. At least he's got Aether. I'm not even sure what a Dolphin Slash is.

There is a critical hit animation similar to it ... that more closely resembles FTilt.

So yeah, Idk, Sakurai just woke up one day and was like "I read a Superman comic once, Ike has a red cape. Seems legit."

I do complain about Eruption, though. It makes no sense and Ike was going to have his Ragnell Sword Beam before Sakurai took it out of Brawl for balance reasons. Even though he wouldn't know balance if he was assaulted by the flaming scales of divine justice themselves.

 

[Crixler]

I like the "2D" Zeldas, but none of them have Ganondorf in them.

Four Swords Adventures. Though that's not actually the same Ganondorf as the one that appeared in OoT, WW, and TP.

 

[Banjodorf]

I do complain about Eruption, though. It makes no sense and Ike was going to have his Ragnell Sword Beam before Sakurai took it out of Brawl for balance reasons. Even though he wouldn't know balance if he was assaulted by the flaming scales of divine justice themselves.

And now I'm pretty upset.

...Maybe he'll get it this time?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I really don't want to start a war here, but just to be clear, I think these arguments are not made to defend Smash Ganon's adherence to canon, but rather why the Black Shadow/Ganondorf idea is not a necessary step in correcting it.
First off, C. Falcon was given a moveset based on stylized, yet generic martial arts, probably carried over from the early stages of Smash Bros when they hadn't slapped Mario's face on it yet. I'm fairly sure Falcon does not have a claim to all flying kicks and punches when they're not even from his canon in the first place (also, see that gun he always keeps holstered?). If Sami off of Snake is not such a crime against nature because generic military weaponry, why would it be to leave Ganondorf as a clone of generic martial arts and then modify him into his own style from there? Even now, Ganon has a lot of moves that feel like they belong to him (note: not to Black Shadow) such as jab, ftilt, dtilt, side-b, fair, dair, etc. and there's nothing stopping that list from being improved upon.

If Ganon were turned into a pure sword character, for example, I think I'd be disappointed. He'd have the same slashes and jabs that the other sword characters had, and frankly this would accurately represent a boring pool of sword techniques from the games, too. Same goes for magic (although I'd love to see his trusty electric volleyball, he portrays few other iconic abilities that would translate well to Project M's engine), Ganondorf is a lot more than your typical evil sorceror. He commands tremendous strength in everything he does, rather than just conjuring curses and the like to deal with his foes, and I think he is at his most interesting when this shows in his character.
Not to mention, his use of blades has nearly always been out of his own sense of ceremony or ego (and, really, the sole purpose of his swordsmanship is to act as a foil to Link's for that one showdown, both as part of his arrogant nature and in a literary sense from the writers). I wouldn't argue this myself, but if someone liked that he reserves his blade for such attempts to strike down Link, in a sense, I'd actually respect that opinion, to an extent.
This idealogy could even translate to Smash quite well. Ganon's sword use is inconsistent, but he tends to view it almost as an execution tool, rather than a truly preferred method of fighting. Even in TP he often charges in and elbows or kicks Link to open him up to the intended sword strike. If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense for Smash Ganondorf to strike with faster physical attacks to open up his opponents to the more devastating finishers? Sword attacks could easily be worked into Ganon's movepool in this way; it fits right in with how he plays already, and it would prevent the scenario of having a lack of canon sword techniques to draw an entire arsenal from, or worse, a Ganon that sits back and pokes all day. Swordplay doesn't have to be added in great volume as the backbone of Ganon's neutral play to accurately represent how he uses it in-game, although a few spacing moves could still make use of the sword (nair in particular would be nice to have a sword equivalent of).
Look at some other characters, too; Ness quite obviously prefers to use a bat, yet he didn't need a whole set of bat swings to represent that, all it took was fsmash. Samus using kick attacks and arm cannon punches isn't canon, either. Mewtwo doesn't have so many tail attacks, Zelda doesn't kick things, Peach prefers weapons in Super Mario RPG, Olimar doesn't use Pikmin swords, Kirby doesn't use extensive kickboxing, Lucario's existence in general, off the top of my head. Yet, they all manage to feel canon because there are references to their canon appearances worked into a style that is designed to work well in a fighting game. How different is Ganondorf from these to deserve getting his current design scrapped?

And yes, Ganon Punch is a thing in the first place because Sakurai was painfully insensitive to Zelda canon. Same with Wizard's Foot. That doesn't mean the potential for improved design should be denied as a whole because it's too difficult to look past the faults of the character. The fact remains that a heavy reliance on brute strength makes sense as a basis for Ganondorf. In fact, it really captures a feeling of power that the other fighting styles would likely fail to recreate. Now all it takes are the details to make him his own character.
So please, if these arguments are going to bother you, don't misrepresent them, is all. I do believe I've written more than enough on several occasions to stop arguing on this subject, but I would really prefer not to fall silent on a misunderstanding, so, I hope these arguments aren't as obnoxious given the context.

What I get from this is that Ganon fans would rather like to see every move of Ganon's that isn't a copy of Falcon's (essentially neutral-B, down-B, up-B, u-tilt, f-smash, d-smash, u-smash, dash attack, d-air, n-air, b-air, u-air) changed to be more unique to him instead of completely decloning him and skinning him as Black Shadow, right?

Well, look at ALL the moves you'd have to change, I listed them up there. As for down air, it's just like Captain Falcon's visually and functionally, but stronger, it doesn't feel like it's a move that could be exclusive to Ganon. Other than that, isn't the amount of change comparable to a decloning anyway, even though you think it's unnecessary? Those non-Ganon moves, if we leave out grabs and throws, still constitute 12/23 of his moves. That's a little over half already.

From my point of view, if Ganon is going to keep having so little unique moves to "feel like Ganon"--a fighter that's all about power, judging by the way you present him (which I understand, I DO play him and enjoy doing so because of how delicious every connected attack feels)--I'm still not going to be able to picture him as anyone but Black Shadow wearing a Ganondorf suit. If the hypothetical (but yeah, most likely there are some that think this) Ganon fans are so opposed to the idea of Black Shadow because they don't feel it's necessary to make him more unique, they have to ask themselves exactly how much of his current moveset they really want changed if he's so "unique" already. I'm sure that, after seeing just how much they'd have to change, then they'll realize that they still don't want Ganon changed at all, to keep him as a clone. They'll realize that they like the moveset more than the character itself, and might not see Black Shadow as all that drastic after all.

Unless, of course, a lot of fans of his DO want his non-unique moves made more unique, either with completely new moves or a new way of animating them (using the sword for the latter). I think we can all agree that Warlock Punch just needs to go, or at least made better or more unique. Otherwise, more of Ganon's moveset can be copypasted onto a Black Shadow model and no one would really go "Hey, Black Shadow feels more like a Zelda character to me than an F-Zero one. Weird..."

As for Sami, I wouldn't be as offended with her being a Snake clone as I was with Ganon being a Falcon clone. I see, like everyone else does, how that does make a lot of sense. I just sense that the Advance Wars franchise has more to offer than Snake clones. Because if realistically Liquid or Raiden can fill those roles better, then does the Advance Wars franchise really have much to offer if Snake clones are all they've got going for them? Probably not, but that's hypothetical, since we all know there's a good, creative way to implement an Advance Wars character that FEELS like an Advance Wars character, while simultaneously not feeling like Snake.

I'll close with that it's late and I'm tired, and I spent an hour replying to this not because I want to start a war (I'm actually very peaceful around these forums), but because I just wanted to tell you, hey, great that you and lots of other Falcondorf fans think that way, I understand that's different from what I originally thought, but it won't really make me see Ganondorf as Ganondorf; as I said, right now Black Shadow is running around in a Ganondorf suit because people won't accept the way he looks otherwise, which, to me, is kind of sad. He's really trying to fit in, but he's waiting for the real Ganondorf to come along so he can take the suit off, so they can go out for a drink and joke about how long he had to wear that stuffy, disfitting old thing for over a dozen years before finally coming out to the world.

 

[dezeray112]

For those who are interested, here are the most recent stats for the supposedly leaked 5, after 240 votes:

Isaac: 126 full votes, 23 half votes, 10 anti votes. Total score: 127.5. 93.7% support.

Lyn: 80 full votes, 24 half votes, 22 anti votes. Total score: 70. 82.5% support

Skull Kid: 26 full votes, 27 half votes, 14 anti votes. Total score: 30. 91.3% support. Late entry

Sami: 32 full votes, 14 half votes, 17 anti votes. Total score: 22. 73.0% support.

Knuckles: 15 full votes, 9 half votes, 48 anti votes. Total score: -28.5. 33.3% support.

So are these the top 5 choices? If so then, I am pretty satisfied with this.

 

[Arteen]

I'm not against Advance Wars at all. And I addressed that I understand where fans are coming from, I'd like an Advance Wars character myself. I'd just have a hard time replacing one of the other three Nintendo characters to make room for an MGS character to have Andy / Sami unique, which is what I'd like him / her to be.

I only brought this all up because of Knuckles, remember.

I don't mean to knock Metal Gear, but that series already has way more representation than it deserves, and Snake is lucky to even be in. Metal Gear has almost no Nintendo history at all.

The Sonic franchise is a much different beast. Sonic has had a longtime history with Nintendo. First he had a historic rivalry with Mario, then Sega went third-party and Sonic had a bunch of Nintendo-exclusive titles, not to mention Sega and Nintendo's current partnership. I'm a lot more comfortable with Sonic getting another rep (who has appeared in a ton of Nintendo games himself) than Metal Gear getting more characters.

Smash is a celebration of Nintendo history and characters. If another third-party character makes it in, I'd prefer it to be one with more Nintendo history.

 

[Spire]

IF the PMBR chose these five characters, what if they approached our poll with the mindset of, "let's choose two from the top, two from the middle, and one from the bottom," for sake of diversity and unpredictability. Isaac and Lyn are from A Tier, Sami and Skull Kid are from C Tier, and Knuckles is from the bottom (Sonic Tier). IF this was their selection method, then the only characters directly in competition with these chosen five are:

• Ridley
• Paper Mario
• Tom Nook
• Dixie Kong
• Samurai Goroh
• Andy
• Tails
• Shadow

I'd say we got a really strong five characters then! They may have opted against Ridley, K. Rool, and Ganondorf/Black Shadow for any or all of these three reasons:

1. The PMBR simply wasn't interested.
2. The PMBR suspects these characters may be in Smash 4.
3. The PMBR prefer a more unpredictable group of newcomers.

This is all conjecture for the truth may be wildly different.

 

[Anti Guy]

So are these the top 5 choices? If so then, I am pretty satisfied with this.

They aren't the top 5 choices... Knuckles is way down towards the tail end of the poll. They are the 5 that were leaked to be chosen though

 

[Arteen]

My guess is that there selection criteria is this, in order of importance:
1) Who's feasible?
2) Who do we like?
3) Who's popular?

I doubt that they put much weight into the poll. The characters they want are always going to take priority over the characters anyone else wants.

 

[dezeray112]

They aren't the top 5 choices... Knuckles is way down towards the tail end of the poll. They are the 5 that were leaked to be chosen though

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Empyrean]

MOTHER BRAIN FOR CLONE ENGINE

Damn, I was gonna say that as soon as I saw it this morning! Got ninja'd by 7 hours, I guess...

 

[Rasgar]

Damn, I was gonna say that as soon as I saw it this morning! Got ninja'd by 7 hours, I guess...

I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but is your avatar the Rail Tracer?

 

[TheTuninator]

I'm not against Advance Wars at all. And I addressed that I understand where fans are coming from, I'd like an Advance Wars character myself. I'd just have a hard time replacing one of the other three Nintendo characters to make room for an MGS character to have Andy / Sami unique, which is what I'd like him / her to be.

I only brought this all up because of Knuckles, remember.

Oh, I know! I'd like them to be unique too. I'm just saying that if the only way to include an AW character is as a semi-clone of Snake, that moveset works well enough as a Sami moveset that her inclusion makes sense.

 

[Empyrean]

I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but is your avatar the Rail Tracer?

shhhhhh...no one is supposed to know!

So, ahem, Pichu for clone engine?

 

[The_NZA]

Son, you need to get some Ocarina of TimeWind Waker HD in your life immediately.

Fix'd.

Best version of ganon in any game.

 

[Empyrean]

Fix'd.

Best version of ganon in any game.

The objectively best version of Ganon in any game is Brawl Ganon. Can't deny facts, son.

 

[Freduardo]

Four Swords Adventures Ganon was my favourite. Giant and needed four links to beat him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why the hell is everyone worried about Sami not being unique

Look how similar Mewtwo and Lucario are for f's sake

I'm pretty certain every clone engine character will get similar treatment. These are not characters being shoehorned in to pad the roster, each is a labor of love by the PMBR. You can be danged certain that if they choose to include someone, they will put in work on them.

 

[Deviljho]

Sorry, but who would Sami be based off of? I don't know Advanced Wars. I'm guessing... Snake?

 

[Banjodorf]

Why the hell is everyone worried about Sami not being unique

Look how similar Mewtwo and Lucario are for f's sake

I'm pretty certain every clone engine character will get similar treatment. These are not characters being shoehorned in to pad the roster, each is a labor of love by the PMBR. You can be danged certain that if they choose to include someone, they will put in work on them.

Well, to be fair, it's alot more plausible for some characters to be more similar to Marth/Roy than Mewtwo/Lucario.

Since Mewtwo was built from Lucario as a wholly original character, while Marth shares tons of animations with Roy. I expect some characters are going to be a bit more unique than others.

 

[arcticfox8]

Fix'd.

Best version of ganon in any game.

I actually have that game, but it's not really doing it for me right now. Like I said, I'm not really into 3D Zeldas, but maybe it gets better.

 

[Banjodorf]

What kind of monster could dislike 3D Zelda?

That said, I think this has been getting a little off topic.

 

[Saito]

I actually have that game, but it's not really doing it for me right now. Like I said, I'm not really into 3D Zeldas, but maybe it gets better.

How far are you.

 

[arcticfox8]

How far are you.

I just got on Tetra's ship lol. And I did that obstacle course thing for that short guy. But yeah, it's just the gameplay, but I might get used to it.

 

[Saito]

I just got on Tetra's ship

I was going to say drop the game because it's not for you, but you are right at the beginning still.

It gets sweeter as you go along.

And I hope you're ready for these spoilers

Spoiler

You'll understand soon enough.

 

[AnOkayDM]

shhhhhh...no one is supposed to know!

OH MY GOD

I've been seeing your avatar for a while and I guess I never read the "I like trains" part, but even if I had, I doubt it would've clicked that that's a weird drawing of Vino.

I approve. Like/10.

 

[Rasgar]

OH MY GOD

I've been seeing your avatar for a while and I guess I never read the "I like trains" part, but even if I had, I doubt it would've clicked that that's a weird drawing of Vino.

I approve. Like/10.

That's exactly what happened to me. I suddenly realized that there was text on the picture and I was like, "Oh, THAT's who it is!"

Weird conicidence for me because I just met his English voice actor last week.

 

[AnOkayDM]

That's exactly what happened to me. I suddenly realized that there was text on the picture and I was like, "Oh, THAT's who it is!"

Weird conicidence for me because I just met his English voice actor last week.

Heh, my girlfriend who introduced me to the show met and has autographs from him, J. Michael Tatum, and Firo's voice actor. Anyway, she has their autographs on her Baccano! box, each of them on their character.

...

Isaac and Miria for Clone Engine?

 

[CardiganBoy]

While i don't believe in the leak that much (still amazed by Sami's model), i think i rather wait untill the SSB4 complete roster is confirmed, to see new characters for P:M, that said, i don't want them to put characters they believe aren't going to appear in Smash4, but rather add the top characters that didn't make it in SSB4.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I believe Warchamp mentioned on Reddit that they've already begun and will deal if a Clone Character happens to be included in SSB4.

Also @ the Snake video: I don't remember the name of the actual island anymore, I just call it Shadow Moses Island.

 

[Roy of Pharae]

i'd be pissed if knuckles or any other sonic rep got in. we need characters like isaac, who are under represented.

 

[splat]

i'd be pissed if knuckles or any other sonic rep got in. we need characters like isaac, who are under represented.

You are aware that both characters are in the list, right?