New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[DayLaMike]

H'ooooooooooooooooh boy, where were you for the Ganondorf talk?

I might have been under a rock.

 

[Fortress]

-Wavedashing, L-Cancelling, and lots of other good things didn't make it into Brawl. What's your point?

That Pichu's a bad character at heart. Pichu's not a good thing. He was a ****ty character. Wavedashing and L-Cancelling were good mechanics.

-People want him back because they played as him in Melee and enjoyed it.

"Muh nostalgia" is what I was calling earlier. I never saw any serious professional Pichu scene. Ever. I've never heard of such a thing. Because Pichu's a bad character.

That's like saying people only wanted Mewtwo or Roy or, hell, Samus and the rest of the cast back because 'muh maylay'.

No, it's like saying "Pichu was a ****ty character that nobody played seriously and was present for one game", where Mewtwo, Samus, and Roy were slightly more viable characters (Roy moreso, in my opinion) that people actually gave a damn about, where Samus has been around since Smash64 and of course she'll be coming back.

It doesn't matter if the reason they like the character is how he played in Melee, we still liked playing as Pichu in Melee and want him back.

He can be in or not for all I care, but my point is that I feel other characters deserve a spot even more; ones who weren't steaming garbage.

-Mewtwo, Kirby, Roy, and Bowser are garbage too, but that didn't stop people from playing as them in Melee and Brawl and didn't stop people for being excited to play as them in Project M.

Mewtwo, Kirby, Roy (sort of), and Bowser weren't bad clones that nobody played in a competitive scene. Okay, maybe nobody played Kirby seriously, and you had to be ballsy to try Bowser, but, come on, man. Pichu.

I just hate Pichu, I guess that's all there really is to it. I simply hate him. Maybe I'm more than a little biased against him, but I'm just being more vocal about it than I feel others are. Pichu's just plain bad. He's stupid.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Ridley: Too big and probably an awkward moveset

...oh, you're serious.

No.

 

[DayLaMike]

I just hate Pichu, I guess that's all there really is to it. I simply hate him. Maybe I'm more than a little biased against him, but I'm just being more vocal about it than I feel others are. Pichu's just plain bad. He's stupid.

When you say you hate something I don't think you can classify yourself as "maybe more than a little biased". Doesn't get worse than that lol.

 

[Fortress]

When you say you hate something I don't think you can classify yourself as "maybe more than a little biased". Doesn't get worse than that lol.

>that'sthejoke.jpg

But, really. I just plain don't like the thing, bless its tiny little heart.

 

[DayLaMike]

>that'sthejoke.jpg

But, really. I just plain don't like the thing, bless its tiny little heart.

I-I...I knew that ha ha

 

[XStarWarriorX]

-This isn't an official release "representation" is Sakurai's job for Smash 4. PM isn't obligated to properly show off Nintendo's history.
-Wavedashing, L-Cancelling, and lots of other good things didn't make it into Brawl. What's your point?
-People want him back because they played as him in Melee and enjoyed it. That's like saying people only wanted Mewtwo or Roy or, hell, Samus and the rest of the cast back because 'muh maylay'. It doesn't matter if the reason they like the character is how he played in Melee, we still liked playing as Pichu in Melee and want him back.
-Mewtwo, Kirby, Roy, and Bowser are garbage too, but that didn't stop people from playing as them in Melee and Brawl and didn't stop people for being excited to play as them in Project M.

As a Kirby main, he is definitely not garbage in brawl. in melee he sucks, but he's manageable in low tier tourneys. Sorry for the OT but I had to defend mah main. Here's hoping he'll be a 64-esque beast in PM, too bad he'll be the last one in...

@Forretress Hey I play kirby seriously in all versions, tho i secondary marth for tier reasons.
the T!mmy/chudat/and some guy from germany forgot his tag, play kirby seriously as well

I don't like pichu either, but there's no doubt that he's going to be in sorry.

 

[Eisen]

Oh hey things happened in a thread while I was gone.

rampage

very angry

Please calm yourself.

butthurt

something that hasn't even been confirmed.

I like when people contrive sentiment that's not there. It wasn't like my blood was boiling with lava or something when I talked about how I don't like Pichu. I just... really strongly think he shouldn't be included?? And I have reasons? Is that not okay? Or are you only allowed to have opinions on something if they're positive and unsupported, unwavering schlong-stroking adoration? Also, if you read my posts, like, at all, you'd see a bajillion instances of "if" in regards to "if" the PMBR puts in Pichu and "if" certain conditions go along with it.

I'm simply under the opinion that Pokemon consisting of almost 1/6th of the roster when there's 17 or so other franchises splitting the other 4/5ths like a family of hobos splitting a cheeseburger is a little stupid, and in spite of this people want to make it even worse to more like a 1/5th share. If that opinion seems out of line, then... that's like, your opinion, man. /ref

I'm not going to debate on Pichu anymore or even pay attention to more counter-arguments because I've already said I'm done. I just wanted to defend myself as being not some bloodlusting psycho who needs to "calm down".

It's also embarrassing how badly people recognize sarcasm or trying to lighten the mood. The comment on Pichu getting a name change in my game was facetious; why would I waste my time editing a character I don't really care about? lol

Edit: Also Fortress your avatar makes your post infinitely hilarious lmfao. I am just imagining classic Link smugly adoring Pichu like a pet.

 

[Xinc]

...oh, you're serious.

No.

I apologize. I just cannot seem to imagine a Ridley that's toned down. Ridley would be able to fly and might act as like the boss in SSE. I cannot imagine Ridley otherwise. I am sorry.

Also, an addition to my Lyn reasoning: Lyn can use a bow for a neutral B move, which would make sense since she could as a blade lord. Only Link, Tlink, and Pit have access to Bows.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

...Watch the dude from Urban Champion end up getting into P:M over ALL of the characters that have been mentioned thus far in this thread.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

What would Pichu benefit from being an addition anyway, from both P:M, and the fanbase? To me people want him to be the Tink to Pikachu which again seems rather far-off considering why he was added at the first place in Melee. (And remember, I wasn't too high on Roy either because he's still quite a clone).
Or they just want to add him for nostalgia. By this logic Doc should have also been one of the proposed characters for the Clone Engine slot but as we already got to see him as an Alt. which means that it wouldn't be a problem for Pichu to be same without taking a spot for substantially more better and unique character addition.

At the end, Pichu's best left as the nostalgic novelty character from Melee instead of brought to the game to imitate other characters even more than it should over adding new characters that would feel original. Why can't people settle on him being an Alt?

You can also play Melee SD Remix for your better-made Pichu too

 

[B.W.]

I just want to say that I thought it would be a cool idea for a Primid to be a character since before Brawl was released.

It'd be neat to have a character that's born from Smash.

 

[trojanpooh]

What would Pichu benefit from being an addition anyway, from both P:M, and the fanbase? To me people want him to be the Tink to Pikachu which again seems rather far-off considering why he was added at the first place in Melee. (And remember, I wasn't too high on Roy either because he's still quite a clone).
Or they just want to add him for nostalgia. By this logic Doc should have also been one of the proposed characters for the Clone Engine slot but as we already got to see him as an Alt. which means that it wouldn't be a problem for Pichu to be same without taking a spot for substantially more better and unique character addition.

At the end, Pichu's best left as the nostalgic novelty character from Melee instead of brought to the game to imitate other characters even more than it should over adding new characters that would feel original. Why can't people settle on him being an Alt?

You can also play Melee SD Remix for your better-made Pichu too

He can't be an alt. The rules dictate that alts are only costumes, not different characters. Unless the alt was Pikachu wearing a Pichu hat it doesn't pass the test. I don't see how people think it's okay to write off other peoples mains as "nostalgia", it's complete bull and entirely self centered. Also the SD remix of Pichu sucks, they took away his self damage mechanic rather than balancing around it. That whole hack is ridden with this poor mindset, fixing characters by removing weakness rather than buffing strengths. Personally I don't see what arguments people have for characters like Isaac or Shadow other than nostalgia for their respective games (not really, but it's the same damn argument that everyone is making against Pichu and, whadaya know, it doesn't hold water)

 

[Fortress]

Personally I don't see what arguments people have for characters like Isaac or Shadow other than nostalgia for their respective games (not really, but it's the same damn argument that everyone is making against Pichu and, whadaya know, it doesn't hold water)

Pichu: Tripe

Issac: Not tripe.

What's not to love? Besides, who mained Pichu. In the history of, like, ever?

I think it's only fair enough that I ask, since I'm not exactly giving you a chance to really explain; but what would you do to Pichu to really sell him to somebody like me? What are some of the tweaks that it could improve with?

 

[trojanpooh]

Pichu: Tripe

Issac: Not tripe.

What's not to love? Besides, who mained Pichu. In the history of, like, ever?

I think it's only fair enough that I ask, since I'm not exactly giving you a chance to really explain; but what would you do to Pichu to really sell him to somebody like me? What are some of the tweaks that it could improve with?

Opinions. Personally I like Pichu and, while I enjoy Golden Sun, thought Isaac was a terribly boring character. Besides, given the restrictions of the clone engine there's no way they could do him justice. I'd rather not see him at all than see him done poorly.

As for Pichu, frankly loads of potential directions for Pichu have been mentioned multiple times throughout the history of this thread. I wouldn't bother trying to sell him to someone like you because you're already too set in your ways to change your mind. All I'm going to say is the PMBR has shown time and time again that they can balance characters well while making them fun to play as and retaining what made them special in the original game. If you're genuinely interested in hearing something more specific then just go back and read the rest of this thread.

 

[UberAndrew]

If Doc isn't returning as a separate character do you reall think Pichu will? Pichu is such a clone (and a bad one at that) that the most sensible thing to do is just mix the positive aspects of Pichu with Pikachu.
Like many people have already said, the Pokémon series is already over represented, just because he was in Melee does not mean he should return. He had a boring moveset (just Pikachus with slightly different stats) and is just a generally uninteresting character.

Pichu has to be the cloniest clone that has ever cloned. At least Falco is a different character than Fox, Pichu is literally just an inferior Pikachu. He's a joke character that has barely any legitimate appeal. For him to be any interesting or viable they'd have to completely rehaul him, and at that point they might as well just make him a new character, because very few people want to play Pichu because he's Pichu.

The whole "they were in Melee" argument is really flawed. As hard as it for some people to hear, Melee was NOT a perfect game, it had some shortcomings of it's own. Granted Melee is better than Brawl, but that doesn't mean the PMBR should transfer over the shortcomings to PM just because they were in Melee, they should, and most likely will realize what should and shouldn't return.

If they left the additional characters at just Roy and Mewtwo I'd be completely happy, but if they are to add anyone else it should be a new interesting character that brings something to the fight, not an inferior clone for nostalgia purposes.

When considering what to add to a game the decision making process shouldn't be composed of "they're cool" or "they were or weren't in this game", it should be whether or not they add depth and something interesting to the game. A character can be cool or interesting conceptually but lame or boring in execution. Nostalgia and personal bias should rank low when suggesting a character.

But when it comes down to everything, it's the PMBR that makes all the important decisions, and I have full confidence they'll do the right thing and make an end product everyone can enjoy. They're the professionals, they know what is and isn't a good idea.

 

[trojanpooh]

If Doc isn't returning as a separate character do you reall think Pichu will? Pichu is such a clone (and a bad one at that) that the most sensible thing to do is just mix the positive aspects of Pichu with Pikachu.
Like many people have already said, the Pokémon series is already over represented, just because he was in Melee does not mean he should return. He had a boring moveset (just Pikachus with slightly different stats) and is just a generally uninteresting character.

Pichu has to be the cloniest clone that has ever cloned. At least Falco is a different character than Fox, Pichu is literally just an inferior Pikachu. He's a joke character that has barely any legitimate appeal. For him to be any interesting or viable they'd have to completely rehaul him, and at that point they might as well just make him a new character, because very few people want to play Pichu because he's Pichu.

The whole "they were in Melee" argument is really flawed. As hard as it for some people to hear, Melee was NOT a perfect game, it had some shortcomings of it's own. Granted Melee is better than Brawl, but that doesn't mean the PMBR should transfer over the shortcomings to PM just because they were in Melee, they should, and most likely will realize what should and shouldn't return.

If they left the additional characters at just Roy and Mewtwo I'd be completely happy, but if they are to add anyone else it should be a new interesting character that brings something to the fight, not an inferior clone for nostalgia purposes.

When considering what to add to a game the decision making process shouldn't be composed of "they're cool" or "they were or weren't in this game", it should be whether or not they add depth and something interesting to the game. A character can be cool or interesting conceptually but lame or boring in execution. Nostalgia and personal bias should rank low when suggesting a character.

But when it comes down to everything, it's the PMBR that makes all the important decisions, and I have full confidence they'll do the right thing and make an end product everyone can enjoy. They're the professionals, they know what is and isn't a good idea.

You've clearly never played much as Pichu if you believe anything that you said about how he plays.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Where's Insane Crazy Guy when you need him?


And did people seriously not get the memo that the easiest way for the PMBR to add someone is to use a base character? So characters like Pichu, Dark Samus, Claus, make more sense from a technical standpoint because they have characers to work of of, Pikachu, Samus and Lucas.

It the same reason Sakurai added "clones" because it is waaaaaaay easier to create a character based off another then from complete scratch.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

I don't want to see Pichu again because 1) we don't need more pokemon especially one that is a clone of another and SUPER especially because he is a bad clone, 2) I'd rather see a new character, even if they are a clone, and 3) Pichu was a joke character when they added him in Melee, so why is everyone taking him so serious?

 

[Anti Guy]

Regarding all the comments saying "The PMBR could make Pichu's moveset good"... I think that's a terrible argument. They can make anyone's moveset good.

 

[Chzrm3]

When considering what to add to a game the decision making process shouldn't be composed of "they're cool" or "they were or weren't in this game", it should be whether or not they add depth and something interesting to the game. A character can be cool or interesting conceptually but lame or boring in execution. Nostalgia and personal bias should rank low when suggesting a character.

I think a light-weight character with a self-damaging mechanic and a "glass cannon" playstyle is really interesting, actually. There's no character in the game that has a mechanic like that right now, so at the very least I'd like to see that return, and while it'd be entirely possible for them to add Dixie or Lyn and give them self damaging mechanics, that would be pretty weird and would kind of run against what fans of those characters would probably want.

Pichu's the natural fit to cover that kind of fighting style, because he's already had it. If you guys want to throw around some ideas for other characters that could also have a self-damaging mechanic, go for it. I'm curious to see who else fits that mold. (I'll still always love Pichu, tho. : >)

As an aside (this isn't directed just at you, but at all of the anti-Pichu people), I think it's a little unfair that us Pichu supporters keep getting pegged as only wanting him in because he was in Melee, or because of nostalgia. I don't think I've seen a single person in this thread cite "because Melee" as his only reason for wanting Pichu. There's a ton of reasons that we want him - as I've said, there are also a lot of valid reasons to not include him. Naturally, if he wasn't in Melee, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the same held true for Roy, and now he's back.

In the same way that Roy offers an interesting spin on Marth's gameplay, and the PMBR has done work to make sure Roy will be much better than he was in Melee so that his variation on Marth's playstyle is actually valid, Pichu can have the same overhaul. He'll bring a high-risk, high-reward playstyle to PM with his self-damaging mechanic, he'll offer people a crazy and unique variation on Pikachu's classic moveset, and he'll make fans of the original character pretty happy when he comes back.... all for a fraction of the time and energy it'd take the PMBR to satisfyingly implement Isaac, Ridley, etc.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Real Talk? I'm only salty because of this thread being composed of haters. That being said, who are you to say Sonic doesn't deserve rep?

I think people may be misunderstanding what people who are Sonic "haters" are trying to say. I don't know about anyone else, I can only speak for myself when I say this, but if you agree like this post.. I don't HATE Sonic or any characters in Sonic. I wouldn't mind if they added a character from a sonic game. I'm simply looking at it from the position of (1) how many 3rd party characters should be acceptable, and (2) how many 3rd parties from the same franchise should be acceptable.

For my first point, If we're talking about NINTENDO making a game, I would love them to add maybe another 2-3 third party characters (from different franchises). Project M however can only pick from characters represented in Brawl in some way already, so that isn't even an option, and we don't have to go into any deeper discussion for this.

As for my second point, yes characters like Shadow and Knuckles are in Brawl in some way.. But lets go back to if Nintendo was making the game. I think it would be unfair to other 3rd parties (Snake) if Sonic got another rep but Metal Gear didn't. I feel like the game should have an equal distribution of 3rd party reps. We cant start putting in more and more reps from a particular franchise.. its not Nintendo vs Sonic. So in the end I think if the PMBR has a choice between lets say (these are random pics, not all my top pics) - Sukapon, Dark Samus, Little Mac, Lyn and Isaak OR Shadow, taking the place of any of those 1st party spaces, I don't think Shadow should be considered.

I know Sonic lovers will probably still disagree, but that's just how I see it. Again, if Shadow was put in I wouldn't complain, cause all additions will be cool, but I think there are more important first parties that should be considered.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I apologize. I just cannot seem to imagine a Ridley that's toned down. Ridley would be able to fly and might act as like the boss in SSE. I cannot imagine Ridley otherwise. I am sorry.

If Ridley plays like the boss version of himself, then I'll be pissed. That wasn't Ridley. It wasn't a good boss or a good representation of Ridley at all.

Ridley could easily be scaled down. Honestly, in a world where Olimar is bigger than Kirby, I can't fathom why anyone thinks size actually matters when considering a character.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

What would Pichu benefit from being an addition anyway, from both P:M, and the fanbase? To me people want him to be the Tink to Pikachu which again seems rather far-off considering why he was added at the first place in Melee. (And remember, I wasn't too high on Roy either because he's still quite a clone).
Or they just want to add him for nostalgia. By this logic Doc should have also been one of the proposed characters for the Clone Engine slot but as we already got to see him as an Alt. which means that it wouldn't be a problem for Pichu to be same without taking a spot for substantially more better and unique character addition.

At the end, Pichu's best left as the nostalgic novelty character from Melee instead of brought to the game to imitate other characters even more than it should over adding new characters that would feel original. Why can't people settle on him being an Alt?

You can also play Melee SD Remix for your better-made Pichu too

I don't want to play Melee, I want to play Project M. Pichu got me through matchups that I couldn't with particular characters because I figured out how he worked and the people I was playing with didn't know how to combat a tiny, fast moving target with hard(er in comparison to Pikachu) hitting moves. As of 3.0 Pichu is the only Melee character without representation that isn't confirmed either to be coming back or not. Young Link has already been tweaked and merged into what we now have as Toon Link. With Mewtwo, Doctor Mario, and Roy also returning in some form it just seems odd to leave out Pichu on the basis that he's a weak clone when that's exactly what Roy was to Marth. Furthermore, Pichu is too small to just be placed over Pikachu. Even without mentioning the animation differences between Pikachu and Pichu. It just wouldn't be as natural as a port as Dr Mario over Mario.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'm just curious.. I haven't seen people talk about this and how it would work, but if they chose to add Ridley, would it actually be possible for the PMBR to use Ridleys animations from SSE? And furthermore, would they be able to transfer his attacks into PSA? I was always thinking, K they would just use Charizard as a base and do what they can from there, but would they be able to take GFX, articles or anything like that from SSE?

 

[Fortress]

I know Sonic lovers will probably still disagree, but that's just how I see it. Again, if Shadow was put in I wouldn't complain, cause all additions will be cool, but I think there are more important first parties that should be considered.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm just wanting to use your point to help my own, which is the same.

Sanic's third party, a guest; guest characters never get more than one slot for representation. That's just how it goes. In any fighter. You didn't see Ganondorf. Giriham, and Anju in Soul Calibur II, because Link was a guest. You didn't see Leonardo in Soul Calibur V, because Ezio was a guest.

Besides, Original the Animal (Trademark, don't steal)'s fanbase has a large portion of outright crazyfolk that can't even agree on which of the series' characters is their favorite. If one Sonic character got in over another, you can bet there'd be a goddamned meltdown from somebody over it/

 

[Fortress]

I'm just curious.. I haven't seen people talk about this and how it would work, but if they chose to add Ridley, would it actually be possible for the PMBR to use Ridleys animations from SSE? And furthermore, would they be able to transfer his attacks into PSA? I was always thinking, K they would just use Charizard as a base and do what they can from there, but would they be able to take GFX, articles or anything like that from SSE?

Somebody mentioned at one point in the thread that something from SSE wouldn't transfer over. I don't remember if that was articles and their properties, but there was something.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Besides, Original the Animal (Trademark, don't steal)'s fanbase has a large portion of outright crazyfolk that can't even agree on which of the series' characters is their favorite. If one Sonic character got in over another, you can bet there'd be a goddamned meltdown from somebody over it/

People are going to have objections over any character added to P:M, regardless of the franchise. If any additional characters from any franchise are added you can bet there'd be a "goddamned meltdown" from somebody over it. This thread proved that rather quickly.

I don't understand why hate on the Sonic franchise or its fanbase seems to be seen as valid reasoning against their inclusion. Guest characters should probably not be considered before Nintendo characters, I agree, and there are likely better characters to add before a Sonic/Metal Gear character, but that's the only objective reasoning I've really seen in this thread. Everything else seems to amount to a personal distaste for Sonic fans or the franchise itself.

We can be better than that.

 

[AnOkayDM]

My reasons for not wanting another Sonic or MGS character:
-Guest franchises should get one character.
-There are more important characters even if they weren't guests.

That's it. And those reasons are good enough for me, and seem plenty legitimate.

 

[Rick Rockmann]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this thread, but I'd really like to see Peppy Hare. The idea of having more space animals in the game is probably controversial, but I want to see the PMBR try to make a heavy variation on the formula, and Peppy would be perfect. He could have a super-defensive shine, a rocket launcher or some other heavy gun instead of the blaster, and a big ol' rabbit hop instead of Fire Fox.

 

[UberAndrew]

You've clearly never played much as Pichu if you believe anything that you said about how he plays.

I definitely have played Pichu enough to know he'd be better off mixed in with Pichu. He was fun enough to play a few times in Melee, but not fun enough to continue playing in Brawl.

 

[trojanpooh]

I definitely have played Pichu enough to know he'd be better off mixed in with Pichu. He was fun enough to play a few times in Melee, but not fun enough to continue playing in Brawl.

I definitely have played Falco enough to know he'd be better off mixed in with Fox. He was fun enough to play a few times in Melee, but not enough to continue playing in Brawl.

See? I can state my opinions as fact too!

 

[Deleted member]

To everyone saying that Pichu can be made good, please bear in mind that PM, being Project MELEE, will likely make Pichu and incarnation of his Melee self in Brawl.

Aka, a joke character who sucks.

So please, stop with the debates, Pichu is a waste of a slot and if Doc is any indication, we will likely not see him.


Also, what's going on ITT, so much rage.

One thing I do gotta comment on, is the "representation" argument. Really people?

This is a fanmod whose main focus is gameplay. Representation never mattered to Sakurai in the first place, what makes you think it's gonna matter to the PM team? We can have 10 characters of one franchise if they can all be made into intersting fighters. Representation has been a bad argument since Brawl and Smash 4, and it's an even worse one for PM. So yes, Pichu IS viable in the terms that it doesn't matter that he's a Pokemon. Pichu isn't viable in the regard that he's a ****ty character. As for Lyn though... I don't see why people get their panties in a knot over "ZOMG 4 FE CHARACTRER MUH REPRESENTATION." C'mon guys...

 

[UberAndrew]

But the difference between Falco and Pichu is that Falco is already in Brawl, it wouldn't make much sense to just remove characters, but going out of way to add them is a different story.

If they are to add him they most certainly need to tweak his moveset and attributes around. And knowing the PMBR they could probably do a good job at that, but after everything I feel he'd be too much a Pikachu clone than he already is, unless they were to change his moveset.

How I, and a lot of other people see it is that if they're not going to fill every character slot, then fine, add Pichu. we're not losing anything. But if they do plan to fill them up with characters like Dixie or whoever, than Pichu should have low priority. They isn't too many people that'd choose Pichu over someone like Dixie or Ridley.

 

[Deleted member]

But the difference between Falco and Pichu is that Falco is already in Brawl, it wouldn't make much sense to just remove characters, but going out of way to add them is a different story.

If they are to add him they most certainly need to tweak his moveset and attributes around. And knowing the PMBR they could probably do a good job at that, but after everything I feel he'd be too much a Pikachu clone than he already is, unless they were to change his moveset.

How I, and a lot of other people see it is that if they're not going to fill every character slot, then fine, add Pichu. we're not losing anything. But if they do plan to fill them up with characters like Dixie or whoever, than Pichu should have low priority. They isn't too many people that'd choose Pichu over someone like Dixie or Ridley.

Problem with that is that adding Pichu = 700 hours of work.

You people need to start thinking in terms of time investment and returns for said investment. It's not just "but the fans want this so... might as well." And with Pichu, please note that the fans DON'T want him.

Those 700 hours could go to a better character.


Anyway, since this is a specualtion thread, lets change the pace a little...

IF we get a new character, who do you guys think will be the first one to be revealed?

 

[ChronoBound]

IF we get a new character, who do you guys think will be the first one to be revealed?

I bet on Isaac or Lyn. Isaac is particularly good because of the sheer amount of people asking for him, and because there is basically no objections to him.

 

[MLGF]

By god, the idea of Isaac being playable is pretty hype worthy.
Hopefully it's in the realm of practicality.

 

[Anti Guy]

To everyone saying that Pichu can be made good, please bear in mind that PM, being Project MELEE, will likely make Pichu and incarnation of his Melee self in Brawl.

Aka, a joke character who sucks.

So please, stop with the debates, Pichu is a waste of a slot and if Doc is any indication, we will likely not see him.


Also, what's going on ITT, so much rage.

One thing I do gotta comment on, is the "representation" argument. Really people?

This is a fanmod whose main focus is gameplay. Representation never mattered to Sakurai in the first place, what makes you think it's gonna matter to the PM team? We can have 10 characters of one franchise if they can all be made into intersting fighters. Representation has been a bad argument since Brawl and Smash 4, and it's an even worse one for PM. So yes, Pichu IS viable in the terms that it doesn't matter that he's a Pokemon. Pichu isn't viable in the regard that he's a ****ty character. As for Lyn though... I don't see why people get their panties in a knot over "ZOMG 4 FE CHARACTRER MUH REPRESENTATION." C'mon guys...

I agree with your point on Pichu, but I don't see where your "representation" argument holds ground. What evidence do you have that Sakurai does NOT compare about representation? I only see evidence that he does. For example, in Brawl, he gave both Pichu and Mewtwo the boot after adding PT and Lucario -- while I can understand Pichu, he didn't need to get rid of Mewtwo. Same goes for adding Ike and dropping Roy. He also added Wii Fit Trainer and Villager for SSB4, representative of two big franchises. From a financial standpoint, he's trying to promote different games, increase exposure, and consequently generate more revenue for Nintendo, which was very successful for Fire Emblem via Marth + Roy and from a fan perspective, Earthbound. And like I said, there was also evidence of him keeping number of characters under control per franchise by his selective omissions from Pokemon and Fire Emblem.

Next, does representation matter to the fans, both the ones playing this mod and the ones making it? We have a little more insight into this, and probably aside from you, the answer seems to be a strong yes for the ones playing the mod. If so many people care about representation, then it probably should matter to the PM team.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with your point on Pichu, but I don't see where your "representation" argument holds ground. What evidence do you have that Sakurai does NOT compare about representation? I only see evidence that he does. For example, in Brawl, he gave both Pichu and Mewtwo the boot after adding PT and Lucario -- while I can understand Pichu, he didn't need to get rid of Mewtwo. Same goes for adding Ike and dropping Roy. He also added Wii Fit Trainer and Villager for SSB4, representative of two big franchises. From a financial standpoint, he's trying to promote different games, increase exposure, and consequently generate more revenue for Nintendo, which was very successful for Fire Emblem via Marth + Roy and from a fan perspective, Earthbound. And like I said, there was also evidence of him keeping number of characters under control per franchise by his selective omissions from Pokemon and Fire Emblem.

Next, does representation matter to the fans, both the ones playing this mod and the ones making it? We have a little more insight into this, and probably aside from you, the answer seems to be a strong yes for the ones playing the mod. If so many people care about representation, then it probably should matter to the PM team.

He dropped Mewtwo and Roy due to time constraints the fact that their data can be found in Brawl's disk is evidence of this, Young Link was reskinned and redone as Toon Link as a last minute low priority addition as well as Wolf and Jiggs. Doc and Pichu were dropped because they were clones and thus very low priority characters, and clones already were seen in poor light by the fans, and Sakurai knew this.

Point is, Sakurai never meant to drop Roy and Mewtwo, they were meant to be in the final version of Brawl, however, a lot of Brawl's development went into SSE, and thus, other aspects of the game suffered because of it, gameplay balancing, and roster included. If Sakurai gave two ****s about "representation" Smash Melee and 64 would have seen the likes of Rareware characters such as Banjo and Diddy Kong. In fact, I'd say that the fact that DK, who is one of Nintendo's most iconic faces, and certainly was so during the 5th gen, only had ONE rep up until Diddy Kong was added in Brawl, while Star Fox and Fire Emblem which were much more obscure got two, says a WHOLE lot. Likewise, if Sakurai cared about representation, C.Falcon, Ness, IC, G&W, and ROB, would never had appeared in this "all-star fighter."

In addition, don't forget that Dedede, Wolf, and a few others were planned for Melee. Meaning SF, would have gotten THREE reps during Melee. In fact, Dorf was a last minute clone addition for Melee, so technically, we could have gotten three SF characters, and three Zelda characters, meaning that if you're right, then Zelda and SF are equally important.

As for WFT and Villager, Sakurai himself stated that he added those characters because (WFT mostly cause she was unpredictable - his curveball) of the gameplay potential they added to the roster. "Something unique that is has not been seen in SSB before." So really, you're proving y point with that in that gameplay should be and is a priority in this franchise.

The only thing I agree on is that Sakurai looks at obscure franchises to increase their exposure, but once again, he makes the picks in those franchises based no what he can do with said characters. Ergo, why IC got over Balloon Fighter.


As for that last bit. Nice projection and generalization. But no, representation really doesn't matter to most of the fanbase, especially considering PM is a competitive mod geared to please the competitive side of the Smash Bros. community. Same one that likes "cheap mechanics" such as wavedashing, ACTUALLY notices the subtle differences in clone characters, and doesn't give a rat's ass about "proportionately representing" Nintendo's franchises. Honestly, I don't understand when and how this became a thing, because honestly, I see it in the Smash 4 forums, and it's really really stupid, it's honestly the reason I stopped going there.

The evidence is stacked against you, Sakurai doesn't care about representation, and if you take a quick browse of the Melee and PM forums, you'll notice that the people who sink their teeth into the competitive aspects of the franchise, don't care about representation. Those people care about gameplay, first and foremost. Thus, which characters are the most interesting to them?

Well:

By god, the idea of Isaac being playable is pretty hype worthy.
Hopefully it's in the realm of practicality.

And I don't mean him, but look at the top 5 on here.

 

[Chzrm3]

To everyone saying that Pichu can be made good, please bear in mind that PM, being Project MELEE, will likely make Pichu and incarnation of his Melee self in Brawl.

Aka, a joke character who sucks.

They didn't leave Roy as "a bad version of Marth", even though that's what he was in Melee - they tweaked his moves and made him a viable option. Pichu could get that same love. : >

Problem with that is that adding Pichu = 700 hours of work.

You people need to start thinking in terms of time investment and returns for said investment. It's not just "but the fans want this so... might as well." And with Pichu, please note that the fans DON'T want him.

Those 700 hours could go to a better character.

Actually, they clarified in the original clone engine thread that Roy was ~300 hours, and Mewtwo was the one who was 700. Roy's got a few brand new moves, as well as some crazy stuff going on with his side-B, so that's probably where a majority of that time was spent.

It's entirely possible that Pichu would take even less time than that, since I don't think it'd be necessary to give him any new moves. Just make his payoff more rewarding and speed him up a bit, so that he really feels like a glass cannon and not a joke. We're still talking a significant time investment, but now you're comparing 700+ hours for a new character to less than 300 for a returning veteran.

It's fine if you still think Pichu isn't worth it, I'd never tell you how to feel - but at least in that context, you can see where some of us are coming from. =)

IF we get a new character, who do you guys think will be the first one to be revealed?

I'd guess Dixie. I think there's a lot of love for the DK crew in the PMBR, and there's so many interesting directions to take that character. I'd love to see the PMBR take a shot at a Tekken-styled "clone", where half of the moves come from one character, and half come from another. Dixie with some of DK's stuff, some of Diddy's stuff, and a couple new moves coming from her. That could be pretty sick, and open up the door for a bunch of hybridized new characters.

Edit: And ofc, Dixie as a brand new character would be hype too. :D