Ness vs. Snake MU Discussion.

[SuSa]

You'll always be famous in my heart Typh. <3


:leek:

 

[ViceGrip]

I'm So Cal Susa, we just happened to never go to the same tournaments. I beat Hall as recently as this January in tournament. I just recently played Jebus for the first time last month and he's an active tourney goer so it's not completely weird that we never met. It's odd how you were active and I was active but we missed each other due to overlapping periods of inactivity or something like that. In my opinion Ness is only slightly disadvantaged to snake. ness is like mk in a way in that once he gets snake in the air a smart Ness will do tons of damage (or gimp possibly) before letting snake back on stage. Also ness has the ability to outcamp snake if thunder and it's tail are utilized correctly. I don't see enough ness's outcamping snake though, Shaky does it but I dunno who else. 45/55 in snake's favor imo-it's one of Ness's best high tier matchups. Also i'm actually cen cal now but I was so cal for a looong time.

hi TYPH. TYPH TYPH TYPH. did you find your name? hi.

let's see who else name searches hrmmmm. hi Yink. hi choice. hi larry. hi shaky. hi smash64. hi dayjayman. hi bardull. hi junk. hi inui. hi nick riddle. hi mike haze. hi havok. lol

 

[1337-Zero]

if you play a low tier character susa is an unstoppable wall

take it from me

i have no idea what thread this is

I laughed so **** hard.

My experience with Snake:
-Don't ever get grabbed. I know it's been said before, but this is ridiculously important. If you're at low to mid you get f-tilted for 20 and high percents u-tilted OoG for the kill.
-When you want a grab, d-tilt once in case of spot dodge, then grab.
-Pk Fire is about as useless as Susa made it out to be. But it is extremely good when it hits so don't spam it like a doofus like I do.
-Nades should never be a problem ever. Bat, coupled with just picking up the **** thing, and whatever else you can think of. I've probably been blown up by grenades 0-3 times per match, it's not difficult to avoid/stop. Just grab him if he tries some close range defense crap.
-Best combo: ShNairOoS>follow and UairFF>U-tilt>(Uair, Utilt again, Bair, Nair, Fair)FH or Pivot PkFire>Whatever you think will hit him at this point. This combo is great because is gives a lot of variety, I use this all the time and it ***** when I get it off.
-You probably aren't gonna kill him off the top w/ PkT. I'm pretty sure if he Bairs his whole body will outprioritize it. That doesn't mean don't do it, but don't plan on getting a win that way

This is a tough battle, the particular Snake I fight I've never beaten in a set (that's because I'm not that great, but he's really good)
Matchup Ratio- Your ability to read the Snake player: The Snake's ability to read you

 

[lordhelmet]

Matchup Ratio- Your ability to read the Snake player: The Snake's ability to read you

Human characteristics have never been a part of MU ratios.

I just came in here because I was wondering what Snake could do to Ness OoG. If Falcon can CG him I would think Snake can, too.

 

[milesg2g]

Ness pretty much gets gayed out by GR's in general so a good Ness playing camping and not up close is a given.

But I'm glad Vice is here to make more of a reasoning w/ the MU.

 

[1337-Zero]

I just came in here because I was wondering what Snake could do to Ness OoG. If Falcon can CG him I would think Snake can, too.

He definitely can't grab again after a grab release, he really just gets the tech chase d-throw like all the others. The attacks out of shield are much worse than a re-grab though.

 

[milesg2g]

What? what do you mean Snake can't grab him OoS?

Also once Snake Grabs Ness he can Ftilt because of GR. I doubt any Snake knowing that would submit to throwing Ness in any direction once grabbed.

 

[1337-Zero]

What? what do you mean Snake can't grab him OoS?

Also once Snake Grabs Ness he can Ftilt because of GR. I doubt any Snake knowing that would submit to throwing Ness in any direction once grabbed.

Lol, mefail, I meant grab release XD. I'll edit

He can also u-tilt, that means any grab on Ness at 110% or higher is a kill when fresh w/o air release.

 

[milesg2g]

Lol, mefail, I meant grab release XD. I'll edit

He can also u-tilt, that means any grab on Ness at 110% or higher is a kill when fresh w/o air release.

Haha it's cool son as long as you know what you really meant xD.

But yeah that's def. right if you get grabbed @ high %'s you're basically out lol.

 

[Chuee]

Utilt isn't guaranteed out of GR.
You can break out of it's range.

 

[milesg2g]

Utilt isn't guaranteed out of GR.
You can break out of it's range.

This is true I hear but, I didn't say anything cuz I didn't know if it we're 100% accurate.

 

[1337-Zero]

Utilt isn't guaranteed out of GR.
You can break out of it's range.

I've been hit by approx. 65/65 GR u-tilts. I would sincerely appreciate it if you would tell me how to break out of its range

 

[Neon Ness]

Yeah, I was under the impression that GR utilt was inescapable.

I can't imagine there's anything Ness could possibly do to break away far enough to escape a Snake utilt. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

Is there some footage or something?

 

[Bartolon]

Guess not, but I've also done it several times lol

 

[SuSa]

Improper buffering of utilt could be a cause.... but I don't think you can ever break out far enough to avoid it without the Snake messing up.

:leek:

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Chuee, Ness doesn't go as far as Lucas. Ness can't break out if the Snake doesn't mess up.

 

[Eagleye893]

Never been able to break out..

Snake's pivot grab makes getting grabbed much more likely than other characters (it's range is huge!!!!)

 

[SuSa]

It's not THAT broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWll66BNE9o#t=00m30s

55+19 = 74 subscribers? Hm. Thought I'd have far less than that over my 2 different SSBB accounts...
:leek:

 

[Chuee]

Nah, I've seen Ness break out of utilt range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzjYaE5sQeI I think this is the one, if not then it's probably the third match.

 

[Neon Ness]

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5:25

Huh.

But I can't tell if FOW was just holding L/R to shield as soon as possible, and DSF was just a bit too late with the utilt.

I dunno anything about GR slide distance mechanics though, so.

 

[SuSa]

Was in match 3 at like 5m20s... this vid starts at 5 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8-wYj2AeuI#t=05m00s

Ness powershields the utilt due to DSF's non-existant buffering... he started REALLY late on that utilt

:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

NO!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH_UAQeBCzk#t=02m57s
Match 1 at 3:00

 

[SuSa]

Sttiiilllll looks like bad buffering by DSF.

:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

yeah... but it looks more like a WTF miss.

 

[Neon Ness]

Weird. Even if DSF didn't buffer, I've never seen Ness ground break from Snake's grab such a long distance away. Obviously FOW knows something I don't lol.

 

[SuSa]

That small distance has 3-4 frames of walking closer to you before the utilt. So even if I'm wrong about DSF's bad buffering.... a properly buffered utilt would still have enough time to close that almost non-existant gap between the hitbox+Ness and utilt.

Utilt comes out frame 6.

[And depending on your %, we could just choose to dtilt for the KO. As that comes out on frame 6 as well]

:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

Yup...

after watching those videos, I realized one thing that I like about FOW's ness: HE HAS FREAKING AMAZING DI!!! DID YOU SEE WHAT HE WAS DOING?!?!?!

yeah, off the topic of the GR > any tilt that snake has on us, I say we have a few strengths that turn the matchup just enough to have it at 55:45, or only slight advantage, for snake:

PSImag wind can cause snake to fall if he uses C4 recovery for a last ditch effort. Sure, the snake can be epic, tech the stage, and upb, but from that we are still given an advantage when snake is at low areas offstage (DAIR FTW!)
PKT can effectively stop a cypher-ing snake. As I saw you argue, SuSa, bair may be able to cancel out the head of PKT and ruin that plan... BUT! that is only if the ness main screws up; we can keep the PKT at a safe distance from the snake so that bair or other aerials (except nair, because that will hit it) can't cancel it, and if they decide to airdodge, the previous upward lift gives just plenty of time to loop back and hit the snake. Even without the snake airdodging to avoid the PKT (or try to avoid) or hitting the head, the time needed to react to us randomly turning the PKT at the snake doesn't give the snake player an adequate, humane amount of time to stop it with an aerial. If the snake goes high, PKT can chase, and because it hits snake out of the cypher, we can pick a time to attempt the off-top PKT kill OR just get damage whenever. If we fail in anything, our tailwhip allows at least a couple %, a PKT head hit, or just having PKT canceled before you reach the ground. NOTE: using this depends on the height and upward velocity of the snake. Using it when snake is able to nair out and hit us is suicide, so we can chase at a safe distance, fair for protection, or just wait while in midair (rising preferably) until snake gets to a reasonable height. If snake reacts to that, we should have done everything right so that we can just PKT2 away and grab the ledge on either side OR just get a safe distance away.
^The above requires practice, and seems like super theorycrafting, but in mastering it there is absolutely no way for snake to avoid getting damage done to him. If anybody disagrees, I'm gonna try going to a tournament soon (maybe Yink's Brainshock alpha? If my parents are okay with me driving to Iowa...) and go against some better players (AND NOT ON WIFI!) to give it more practice. (This technique stems off the same logic that I use with my double dtilt thing; it mentally limits the options of opponents and puts me in a position to mess with every one of my opponents.)
Nades aren't a huge deal... really. We have PKT, PKfire for random close cases, PKjump for the random off-guard snake cases (or punishing the nade pull-out animation), and can move around in the air well. Snake may feel the need to approach at one point, but that's only if we aren't forced to PKjump inward. (NOTE! PKjump IS A VIABLE APPROACH IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! You can allow a significant amount of time to airdodge to the ground wherever you want, uair before landing, get behind the opponent, etc.)
Random, but bat the snake's usmash stuff for epic mindgames. BAT THE DACUS AT AWESOME DISTANCE FTW!!!
Oh... even though a snake main knowing this other point would completely destroy us (If we are on the wrong side of the snake), we can PSImag wind the snake off the ledge if he over-shoots his DACUS, meaning that the small push, FROM EITHER SIDE OF SNAKE, will cause him to cancel his dash attack or upsmash and go into UNHARMED falling animation. A knowledgeable snake main can easily bair us, but being a reasonable distance away makes it so that bair doesn't hit, and the snake's only options would be fair (too slow and allows us to airdodge and nair you FTW), nair (falls too much and could be risky if we SDI well), uair (could kill us, but somewhat lengthy of an animation) or possibly dair (suicidal FF and also a long animation).

Snake's positives:
Snake's GR to Ftilt is obnoxious... his ability to kill is obnoxious... GR to dtilt and utilt makes everything mean... Nades CAN pressure well... Snake's range, strength, and damage racking ability makes him a huge threat for anyone...

But those don't seem too great above the rest of the cast.

Slight advantage in Snake's favor. Please argue this, or this will stand.

 

[SuSa]

Correct me if I am wrong.

PKT can only arc, and cannot double back on itself (EG: Heading left, it must arc/make a u-turn to go right. It cannot just go right)

Knowing this, the movement of PKT means it must be going within about.. 70 degrees of you to pose any real threat of heading towards you. Knowing this, you wouldn't bair/airdodge/uair unless the head has the possibility of arcing to you and hitting you. This leaves about 1/2 of the loop for PKT to be of a threat. Airdodging the tail is not an option because you can angle the PKT to hit us, or if it runs out - you can punish us harder.

Bair comes out extremely fast, and if the Snake is not already fastfalling it would be faster than you could react with with changing the direction of your PKT.

Factoring in B-reverses, which can change momentum faster than you can re-angle your PKT, it makes it even harder to theoretically juggle Snake.

So it comes down to conditioning your opponent or adapting to them. Not something we can really argue over. But a good Snake WON'T be getting juggled to death, especially not by PKT.

I also thought PKJump involved using PK Fire... PK Fire is not viable as anything but a read, to force a shield/dodge (which may get you punished), or to punish lag of an attack. But please correct me if my idea on PKT's frame data is wrong (as I haven't looked at it, but I know it to be relatively laggy)

Snake shouldn't be using DACUS that close to you, that's punishing an extremely stupid Snake. DACUS is not an approach, and is only used to retreat - to close a large amount of ground quickly (EG: you're offstage in the blast zone on the opposite side of the stage), or to punish lag (wee for frame data.. OoS dash attack/dacus is viable for Snake)

You also forgot Snake's ability to live. For a really long time. Did you see FOW throwing DSF at like 150% at the EDGE OF FD with a fresh bthrow? Yea... DSF lived through that.

EDIT:
If my theorycraft is seemingly "too strong" please let me know. I do keep it within reasonable levels, and I am not saying "hur hur Snake will NEVAR be juggled by pk thunder" but I am defending the fact that Snake shouldn't be being juggled to a great extent by it. It may happen, but it shouldn't happen often. It's more of a player's lack of knowledge that would allow you to juggle them so much than the actual character.

:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

I meant loop back, but ness' PKT has enough speed for that amount of time to seem negligible, if the ness main follows the snake up in the right way (slightly below and in front and following movement)

I wasn't aiming for the juggle, I just was saying PKT WILL hit. That can lead to other things, but not an assured juggle. The single hit up high is what causes the death, and often a snake will recover high to avoid the possibility of getting spiked or other things by ness.

PKjump... here's what it does:
Lunge forward with PKfire to lead ahead of you.
PKfire connects with shield a couple frames before ness reaches the same horizontal distance of the opponent or the point of pkfire connecting. To cancel lag, the ness can do all of these things while going down:
Uair (my favorite; fast, hits behind unexpectedly, kills some early, overall great at popping people up... little landing lag as well)
Nair (quick, only for use on taller characters if you want the sure sweetspot)
Fair (If you don't launch far or launch just short of your opponent... rarely happens)
Bair (Rare and requires great timing... can be done if PKjump is started at anything at or above the full height of short hop)
Airdodge (gets to ground and is a variant for the above options... only use to land behind opponent)

Assuming that the pkfire bolt hits the shield, we can get off a nair before punishment from basically anyone reacting to hit us (marth and MK with their upb excluded... haven't looked at snake, but I think utilt is JUST slow enough). Uair is just a little slower than, or possibly the same, starting speed as nair. Airdodge for any expected aerial followups or to just switch up... It's good. I just mess up a bit with it offline.
If PKfire bolt hits, WE GOT TONS OF STUFF ON EVERYONE! NO JOKE! Which is why I said for nade pullout punishment.... in fact, if snake is holding a grenade, we should be fine with just airdodging down... I'm not sure... Using an aerial means BOOM, so it needs to be perfect.

It's not CLOSE to you; even if he's far away, you can react, jump, and psimag to blow snake off the ledge.

I forgot that, but it's common knowledge.... like, if someone DOESN'T know that snake lives long, they are dumb.

 

[SuSa]

I can agree with the first paragraph.

I will agree with the second, but change "will hit" to "will likely hit"

Have a video for PKJump? =\ Still seems either punishable (OoS usmash, shield drop utilt) but depending how fast Ness closes that distance it may be a frame trap or something. I need a vid because 10~ months of memory isn't exactly perfectly reliable.

Snake's utilt hits on frame 6 and moves his hitbox slightly.

Alright, I'll believe that the PSIMag may be practical, but I wouldn't highly consider it... again.. you shouldn't be ANYWHERE CLOSE ENOUGH to be able to pull that off against Snake. If you are, the Snake isn't using DACUS properly... <_<

Agreed, but still. =P Was worth mentioning in that list.

[Wishes other Snakes' would get their ***** in here]

:leek:

 

[Neon Ness]

This is what PK Jump looks like.

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[SuSa]

Is that even the correct timing for it? Odesn't look safe at all if blocked.

:leek:

 

[milesg2g]

A pkf coming from the air w/ Ness is a lot safer than being on the ground. Simply because people can power shield and grab you. So an aerial pkf is much safer because you can position yourself somewhere safer.

 

[SuSa]

The angle at which the PK Fire hits and where you land leads me to believe they could powershield and grab you... even easier.

:leek:

 

[Neon Ness]

Is that even the correct timing for it? Odesn't look safe at all if blocked.

:leek:

Yeah, that video has the timing right.

I personally don't really think it's safe on block though, regardless of how well you try to space it. Especially against people with ridiculous grab ranges like Snake/D3. But... eh.

 

[SuSa]

It looks atrocious on block. The angle at which PK Fire travels while airborne, and the height and lag you suffer upon performing it is.... horrible.

A well spaced grounded PK Fire is extremely hard to be punished by Snake (actually, well/perfect spaced pk fires I think are unpunishable but leave the two at a stalemate.... I don't know if we can OoS DACUS/dash attack in time...)

:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

Better example of PKjump is in my matches with random people on wifi. xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whJrVJOssWY#t=00m21s

the other two times I messed up by landing too early.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Eagleye893#p/u/6/yLbyIIJ6iJg#t=02m05s

That's another example.... but not too great.


I swear i had better video examples of this stuff... Imma do something about that in the next day or two.

Oh... other videos make it look terrible on block because they don't use it from the right height... or airdodge to land. If you use it from the right height, you can bair, uair, nair, fair, and airdodge before you hit the ground.... PKT is unlikely, and PSImag is just absurd to end the PKjump. The first example shows the near ideal height for it (a little higher and you can bair before landing).

 

[SuSa]

First link was great, but bucket is REALLY laggy and he could had easily shielded then Up-B'd OoS to punish you.

Of course that's playing theorybrawl. (Although if he knew the matchup, he'd have done that if he heard an aeral pk fire... :s)

Your second link didn't work.

Although I did see you uair before landing, so I'll give you that much. It MAY not be punishable by OoS usmash/utilt. I don't have the means to test right now. =\

PS:
That was a nice PKT2 kill. I don't see enough runoff PKT2's.
:leek:

 

[Eagleye893]

Thanks dude!

I would provide an example of shield pressure with PKjump, but I need to play someone IRL.

That's why I'm pushing it; it helps provide at least one viable method of approach for MOST characters (like was said, marth, MK, GnW, and a couple other characters with fast enough upb's can get ness)

 

[ViceGrip]

I feel like I've posted many many paragraphs on the snake vs ness matchup and i'll post another for this if needed but i'd rather just play a credible snake main a few times and then discuss, much easier that way and both sides can see what they other is saying more easily. Like when i say that Ness is almost as good as metaknight as far as juggling snake in the air go, and that ness can outcamp snake most times I feel like it takes an in person match for someone to take my claims seriously. Smart pk fire and pk thunder is a godsend in this matchup, poor or mediocre use of pk fire and pk thunder = Ness loses hard.