Ness vs. Snake MU Discussion.

[milesg2g]

The next MU the Ness boards will be discussing is the Snake MU.

Current MU: 60-40 Snake.


Pros:

Easy Gimp and/or Spike

Can be juggled

PKT stops nades and mines

PKF stop mines

PKF stops DACUS approaches.


Cons:

Grab Release (GR)

Tilts

Heavy Character


Racks damage fast









Notable Matches:


MIB vs. Fatal

MIB wins Ness vs Snake


Shaky vs. Bizkit

Shaky wins Ness vs Snake


Shaky vs. Greenhalberd

Shaky wins Ness vs Snake

 

[milesg2g]

Reserved post.

 

[Chuee]

greenhalberd?
wut

 

[milesg2g]

He's a snake main I know. He's Redhalberds bro.


Enough of that lets discuss the MU people.

 

[Dajayman]

Who is MIB?

 

[milesg2g]

A PA Wario/Ness main.

 

[Neon Ness]

Lol @ how this entire thread so far has been "Wtf who is x player?"

miles, you might just want to start going in further depth on some mu things you listed, and see where that goes.

 

[milesg2g]

Yeah thanks Neon, I don't too much make threads on MU I need you alls help that's why! lol.

 

[Chuee]

Pretty sure MIB goes full Wario now but on topic.
You can break out of his utilt range from the GR.

 

[PSI.kick]

pwn that reptile up with pkt yo!

Ok so i don't know much about this MU, so ill be brief about it.
-Use common sense (seriously, when would you not?)
-watch out for nades, you can stop them with pkt
-Mmmmm pkfire is a wonderful thing, for all you guys that can pk jump, im pretty sure that's a good approach against snake, especially when he's got a nade in his hand (if what's happening in my brain happens in real the game, his nade should explode right?)
-more pkt
-Juggle
-stay in the air mostly, harder for him to get you with nades.
-keep track of his mines/c4, don't get caught in a stupid trap.

more random stuff to discuss
-DEATH RANGE pkt swell surprise, i think that info would be useful in this thread
-PUNISHING
-snake's moveset
-aerials (pretty much everything)
-Priority (both his and ours)
-our kill moves/percents
-his kill moves/percents
-gimping him (ledgehogging, grab gimping, etc)
-not getting gimped
-making this MU a 50-50, it really isn't that bad...
-anything else i didn't mention

Main point: i honestly don't think this is that bad of an MU, snake is pretty slow compared to ness. space your fairs, do a lot of aerials, pkt, pkfire, space things as well as you can, and keep track of what he's doing, I don't quite understand why this is a 60-40.

Most important thing for any MU, don't be stupid.
<< this guy learning from experience.

 

[Eagleye893]

A couple things to note after playing brawl with snake mains for a while:

Dtilt twice... It works, I swear.
Pkt nades only if you are really good at aiming the pkt. For standard approach on the nade barrage, I say use either FHpkFire, PKjump, or just FH towards him. You want to keep some height off the ground, because you don't want to explode or have your opponent throw nades at you when you're pkt'ing and get hurt. Overall, get near him, which seems odd enough when talking about snake.
I REALLY LIKE THE GROUND AGAINST SNAKE... there is so much more you can do. I've said before, dtilt. It is insane. Get behind him, use it twice, and you've got at least a jab combo on him... If not, you messed up in execution. NOTE: you must followup with something immediately, or else you put yourself into a bad position. Ftilt can be used to punish the laggy stuff he uses at close range. Dash attack has range, can potentially set off nades, and is fairly quick, so you can also use it for punishing. Utilt is for airdodging down or immediately after landing a uair. Jab combo sucks... The smashes have range, so you can use those if you place them well. You want to get snake grabbed, and if you don't get to the ground eventually, you can't grab him.
Pkt is insane for stopping his cypher recovery when he is too high to dair or whatever. If he goes up enough, we get a free kill. If he stays lower, we get at least 8%. if you don't believe me, try a different approach to how you use your pkt against snake. Every match, I've gotten at least 30% onto my opponent because of him using cypher. You just need to time it and make it follow him in a way so that if he does airdodge, all you need to do is loop around to follow him. You can also hit him out of the cypher with pkt, so do that if you need to.
If you get your shield utilted, don't drop it... If anything, roll someplace. Don't EVER just drop the shield. Your options are: roll, jump OoS backwards fully, SH fair/nair OoS full forward. The latter 2 depend on position. I say the first of the latter only if you are very near the outer edge of the hitbox. The last is if you were initially very close to the snake.


Possibly more coming. These are my gimmicks/strategies that help me to overcome snake. There are lots, but I'm tired.

 

[Bartolon]

Snake can punish fh PKF with dash attack

 

[milesg2g]

Dash attack can be punished w/ PKF as well though. If timed right. So can Dacus

 

[Eagleye893]

DACUS can be punished with PSImag if you know what you are doing... If they slide to far and go near a ledge, you can wind them off and it will SOMETIMES end in a gimp... most of the time when playing against good players, all you get is a bair to the face.

on that note, so can dash attack.

our dash attack is SOOOO cool though...


I don't like grounded pkfire for that reason though... it's too punishable for me. I only use crazy breversed FHpkFire or PKjump... otherwise, I get punished for the fire.

 

[PSI.kick]

Here's the death range info for snake
Snake 41.87 %

just figured it would be useful
honestly i think we should put this info for every MU discussion

 

[Uffe]

I'm not really sure what the match-up here is, but I can say that PKT is good against Grenades. Also, if you take him to a stage such as Brinstar, then he's not going to do as good there. At least I wouldn't think so. Keep an eye out on where he places his bombs, use the platforms and jump your PKT against him, and you're set. His Snakedashing is practically useless there, too.

 

[SuSa]

Much like MK, Snake doesn't really have stages he does "horrible" on.... just stages his opponens do stupidly well on. (EG: Wario/MK on Brinstar, can time us out rather easily once they get the lead)

Snake has a grab release-->Ftilt on you guys, which is a free 20%+ every time we grab you, although Ness is pretty hard to grab. (Except our Pivot Grab outranges everything you have when spaced perfectly... I thiiiiinnnk we can grab you out of fair but it's really hard)

PKT won't do **** against grenades, it's too slow. In fact - grenades can gimp your recovery if you aren't too careful with how fast you loop that PKT. I've managed to get a few gimps off chucking a grenade at your thunder. It's juuust far away sometimes to not hit you.

PK Fire is slow enough that once you hear "pk f-" the Snake should be shielding. The only reason you should land a PK fire (that isn't a punish off one of our moves) is because the Snake has a sloooow reaction speed, or you were about point blank with the move (risky for you)

That being said, snake is heavy and being caught in a PK fire sucks.

Your spike coupled with your jump is like.. the best in the game. Period... but the Snake should be recovering high and out of your reach.

We kill you... a lot sooner than you kill us.
We outrange you, except when you space fair.

If the Snake doesn't know the matchup, you should win. Period. I'm not talking "hur dur I don't know this matchup at all" but "Okay.. I'm pretty inexperience with this matchup"

Most Snake don't seem to know any matchup below high tier... haha

:leek:

 

[milesg2g]

Susa I'm gonna have to disagree.


1. PKT shouldn't be used against the snake in terms of recovering. The moment the Match starts out there's a good enough distance for Ness to use his options. If Snake approaches w/ Dacus Pkf. If he decides to use Nades THEN you use PKT because the object isn't hitting the Snake it's to stop/make a wall that the grenades can't pass through which is very easy for Ness to perform. This makes nade camping a problem for Snake.

2. As far as out ranging and grabbing Ness. Again a good Ness player will not be grabbed easily. This MU can come down to 2 players simply camping each other out. Ness like any other character should only approach once he has a safe chance to punish snakes missed tilts.(Ftilt or Utilt).



3. When it comes to recovering high Ness simply doesn't have to chase @ it. We too have to recovery in bad situations. All we have to do is wait for an opportunity to chase you w/ PKT in the air off that High recovery to juggle you.

 

[SuSa]

1) Only bad Snake's approach with DACUS. It's a punishing move, or to quickly get to the other side of the field to follow up (EG: After a high % ftilt)

PKT also leaves Ness open to a DACUS punish if we can shield/rid of your PKT.

2) I already stated that, but Snake's pivot grab (and moreso his boosted pivot grab) is stupidly broken. Have you seen that things range?

3) Snake's bair cancels out PKT (the head) IIRC. All we have to do is cancel it out, also B-reversing allows us to avoid it when you try to loop PKT. (Also PKT doesn't last a large amount of time if you have to make it go so high up, unless you jump beforehand)

:leek:

 

[milesg2g]

Again I think you're underestimating the use of PKT and the MU. Just Bair'ing it assuming we're directly under or right next to you makes no sense because you too will also be open to anything after the landed bair depending on how close you are too the ground. Predicting a Bair is so easy to do because of what it can do to a pkt. All that requires is a flick of the joystick, and it'll wrap around snake if you control it right. Snakes so tall that he gets the worse out of PKT's wrap around's because of his height. Falling w/ bair is so predictable and easy to punish you can simply grab Snake throw him w/ Fthrow or Uthrow and repeat this depending on how well the Snake gets out of pkt each time.

 

[Eagleye893]

Actually, you can probably use pkjump as ness near the beginning of a match to hit snake as he does stuff with nades.

As in any match, jump to start. You can still pkt, you only need to land to get your pkfire, but it's safe.

Assume that snake took ness to BF. BF is better for snake than ness... IMO. Now we are restricted in using pkt and pkjump, because the platforms are detrimental to those two things. The only plus from the platforms is an easier time juggling. To approach... You're in trouble. Your options include:
Fair (approaching? Bah!)
Dash attack (the distance is huge, but nobody sees it)
FH nair (SH can be punished by nearly everything and your hitbox will detonate the nades a lot of the time)
FH dair onto platform (I think snake is tall enough for us to hit, but I don't know for sure.)
FH bair (same reason as nair for the FH)
Airdodge behind them (use an aerial before for safety. This leads to the possibility of double-dtilt madness, but I say it's safer just for ftilt or utilt)

More later.
Basically any open stage is a HUGE help to ness, because pkjump allows you to get behind snake, avoid the utilt with height, and pressure shield. Once pkfire connects, the opponent has a few options:
Utilt (If we pkjump right, free uair to utilt or nair, basically)
Shield and continue doing so (we get behind you and can dtilt spam your shield to no end until you pit it down, where we can dtilt twice past and grab or nair)
Shield and OoS bair (we can airdodge, but I still feel that we'll get hit)
Shield and OoS dair (we can fair to avoid dair hitboxes)
Shield and OoS nair (best response by snake)

 

[SuSa]

Why is snake approaching?

The only character in this game that can feasibly outcamp Snake is Olimar, and maaaybbbeee Toon Link... but that ones debatable (given damage outputs, etc.)

Ness's PKFire is entirely dodgeable on reaction (except again, maybe at point-blank range? I forget your guys' frame data.. it's been a while)

You guys aren't stupid enough to use PKT unless you know you're safe (or think you'll be safe) so no point in arguing how slow that comes out. It doesn't matter because we shouldn't be punishing you (unless, again, we cancel your PKT at specific distances)

Ness is practically forced to approach with only fair. Everything else is completely and utterly outranged by Utilt. If you're front is facing us, it's safe you'll try to bair, dair (?), or B-reverse PK fire, or just fakeout approach. Given how your 2nd jump works however a fakeout into double jump won't do you much good if we just utilt you.

Given new information about Snake, I found out we are one of the only characters (read: I think we are the only one) who can refresh our own moveset, using our own moves. Regardless of stage. This means we can be far more leniant on using our KO move (utilt) to rack damage and counter aerial attacks. Then we can slowly work on freshening it up, play keep away and camp a bit, then go for the kill.

Old knews, but utilt is underrated in some ways - and overrated in others. Truth is, it sucks against a lot of ground approaches (it's punishable by most characters at all but possibly perfect spacing), but its GREAT against aerial approaches that don't have a large disjoint (read: Marth's fair, Ike's fair, etc.)

The fact that we no longer need to be wary about using it (to get our kills) means it should become a far larger part of our defensive game. Nobody really has an answer for it, but most boards (including Snake) have never discussed it's uses because its our kill move. It was our "don't use this til _____ or under like 30%" move. Now it's so much more than that, and many characters simply don't have an answer for it.

By this, I don't mean utilt completely shuts down Ness (totally making it sound like it aren't I?) but I'm not ignorant of the fact that Ness, DOES have answers to it and has the mobility to bait and punish it, and blah blah blah.

Point being is I didn't see you list it as an option, or any of your answers to it.

:leek:

 

[milesg2g]

Dude no, lol


Ness doesn't have to approach Snake @ all. He just simply doesn't. He can stay still and avoid Nades like EVERY OTHER CHARACTER CAN and still use PKT when able to stop nades. I've yet to be punished for using PKT on nades vs a snake.

 

[Eagleye893]

I didn't say snake is approaching. I said WE are approaching, because I know there are several instances in which ness just simply CAN'T out-camp snake.

it's not like it's even... it's not super in favor of snake either, and he sure as heck isn't a counter to ness.

 

[Chuee]

Dude no, lol


Ness doesn't have to approach Snake @ all. He just simply doesn't. He can stay still and avoid Nades like EVERY OTHER CHARACTER CAN and still use PKT when able to stop nades. I've yet to be punished for using PKT on nades vs a snake.

If snake has a lead he forces you to approach, only way Ness can force an approach is with a stock lead.

 

[Kole]

Ness doesn't have to approach Snake @ all. He just simply doesn't. He can stay still and avoid Nades like EVERY OTHER CHARACTER CAN and still use PKT when able to stop nades.

stop theorycrafting PLEASE

 

[SuSa]

I didn't say snake is approaching. I said WE are approaching, because I know there are several instances in which ness just simply CAN'T out-camp snake.

it's not like it's even... it's not super in favor of snake either, and he sure as heck isn't a counter to ness.

I wouldn't put it past 60-40 if we REALLY had to put a ratio on it. I ****ing hate ratios.

Ness is at a disadvantage, that's as far as that discussion needs to go. But it's nowhere near unwinnable, it's just hard.

Also since Snake's can spam utilt more it may be harder.

:leek:

 

[milesg2g]

stop theorycrafting PLEASE

I'm not, this is something that happens when I play Ness vs Snake

I wouldn't put it past 60-40 if we REALLY had to put a ratio on it. I ****ing hate ratios.

Ness is at a disadvantage, that's as far as that discussion needs to go. But it's nowhere near unwinnable, it's just hard.

Also since Snake's can spam utilt more it may be harder.

:leek:

No I don't believe that. What notable Ness mains do you play?

 

[Chuee]

^ What notable Snake mains do you play?

 

[Eagleye893]

BOOM!!! both people got owned.

Nobody has played my ness in a year or so... That may end up bringing some useful stuff back to us ness mains, because I've been perfecting my ness while away from tourneys.

If we want ratios, 55:45, 60:40 whatevs.
General, ness has disadvantage, but not by much. Ness still is completely capable of winning.

 

[milesg2g]

^ What notable Snake mains do you play?

I've played Billy 3rd best in AL and beaten notable people.

 

[SuSa]

I've played Billy 3rd best in AL and beaten notable people.

Played and? And who were these notable people?

I admit, I haven't played anyone. There are 0 Ness mains in CA. That doesn't stop this game from being (fairly) theorycrafted.

There are ranges of attacks - you cannot change this.
There are speeds of said attacks - you cannot change this.
There are character movesets - you cannot change this.
There are basic fundamentals to characters (Olimar's Pikmin, Tether recoveries, etc.) - You cannot change this.

Once you learn the pure basics of this game, add in a few "average" human standards (Reaction speed being 12 frames, etc.) you can theorycraft somewhat fairly.

Back when I was in the scene, I spent my time (hours upon hours) theorycrafting the lower-end matchups, and playing WiFi against the mains of said matchups if I could. Many times, I couldn't find a Peach player, or a Fox main, etc. But when it came tourney time, against SoCal's top players of certain lower characters, I wouldn't drop a set. I beat Champ's Fox/Sheik. I beat Edreese's Peach. I beat Raz's Peach. I beat Typh's Pokemon Trainer. But I've never played the matchups before, and I know these players are on my level or better. (Using Inui logic if Typh can beat _____ but I can't... haha)

Why is this?

I studied the matchups. I learned their characters. I learned their gimiks, their options, their AT's. I knew what to expect. I applied this knowledge in tournament, and it worked.

Before I quit the Smash Scene, I was losing to very few people that weren't MK mains. If I lost a game, I was being outplayed or didn't know the matchup well enough. (A jack of all trades is a king of none. While I knew most every matchup in the game, I didn't know some WELL enough or ON PAR to play against players such as Tyrant, DSF, MikeHaze, etc. Whom knew the Snake matchup really well)

That's my history. What's it matter?

Player experience can provide a backing, but it doesn't change the fundamental basics of a matchup. You may have beaten certain players, but is that to say they knew the matchup? Are they on the same player level as you? How are you certain of this? Are you beating them often because you are outplaying them or they don't know the matchup? Is it because your character choice you are winning?

See where bringing in player information gets fuzzy? You need to provide examples from high levels of play that are consistant. Just because Richbrown and Brood both beat M2K does that mean Olimar > MK? Or is it because M2K doesn't know the matchup yet? What answer do you expect if you asked Olimar mains themselves?

Extreme theorycraft:
MK's dtilt > all of Sonic's options (this is obviously false and stupid)

Strong Theorycraft:
All of Ganon's moves (save I think 3? Grab, jab, and 1 more..) are slower than 14~ frames and are shieldable on reaction. By not doing anything, but rather reacting to what Ganon does - you should theoretically beat a Ganon without getting hit often. [While this is some pretty severe theorycraft, it actually is true and I've seen it happen. I've JV 4'd Ganon's whom go even or beat me with other characters. These people are better players than me, but their character holds them back.

Medium-level Theorycraft:
This is the kind I try to stick to. I factor in human elements (like Strong Theorycraft) but I add a little leeway and the human elements of baiting, etc. While my arguments do seem to heavily favor one character - I don't spout out both sides arguments in my replies. I do this in my head, and post my characters side. If you read through my past posts, you'll see I mostly only point Snake's options and answers to your character, but I don't really list yours. I know you have options that do exist, and I expect you to know that. When you look at the ratio I gave, I didn't go "lol 80:20 we shut down everything and have answers to everything" I gave it a Disadvantage to Ness. (I avoid numbers, but I gave it a 60:40 Snake)

Would you consider my end rating of the matchup fair? I may have posted some theorycraft that you disagree with, but you have to take that I don't list every option you have to beat our option to some things. I list possibilities (such as cancelling your PKT with bair) but I don't state you have ways around that, nor did I say we'd do it everytime. I stated it was an option, and I was trying to prove a point that Ness mains would not be able to super-juggle Snake using PKT. Ness lacks the moveset and options to do so. He may be able to juggle Snake a little, but it isn't lol-stock-gone. I saw your side was using a strong-theorycraft basis for juggling Snake. In reality you would have to deal with B-reverses and aerials that cancel PKT and how PKT stales and Cypher Armour would save Snake, etc.

There are many options in any given moment in this game, listing them all would be too much for one person and unrealistic in reality, only in theory.

I may be wrong in spots of my theorycraft. I don't use my statements as an end all, even if I state some like facts. Everything anyone posts that is not backed with data is an opinion. Which means everything I say is my opinion, I shouldn't need to say "IMO" at the end of every sentence. It should be simply understood. Unless I state "Ness jumps faster than Snake, Snake has the slowest jump in game at 11 rames" (which is fact), it's my opinion.

tl;dr
Read it all *****es, ALL OF IT. If you only read a part we'll have a misunderstanding.

:leek:

 

[Chuee]

^ SuSa didn't you play FOW a long time ago?

 

[Yink]

I admit, I haven't played anyone. There are 0 Ness mains in CA. That doesn't stop this game from being (fairly) theorycrafted.

:leek:

Actually this is incorrect. ViceGrip is in California...and he's a good Ness.

As for the rest of your post:

Honestly, I actually agree with a lot of it. But yeah as for ratios, I hate giving them because during a match I'm not going to care, I'm going to want to know WHAT to do. If I absolutely had to give this a ratio it'd be 55:45 or 60:40, nothing higher (even though 5 is just...not worth arguing or getting mad over).

 

[SuSa]

^ SuSa didn't you play FOW a long time ago?

This was at the turning point of my Smash career. It was at Active Gamers, which coincidentally was when I nearly lost to a Falcon in pools. That was the moment I decided learning every matchup, not just top/high tiers was important.

I think I fought FOW in a friendly than MM'd SK92... I can't really remember... was like a year ago... I just know AG was when I started focusing on the lower-end matchups due to said Falcon main. (I 2-0'd the Falcon, but it was last stock on both games IIRC.)

I don't want to drop a game, especially not a set, because I wasn't prepared. I want to be outplayed every match.

Actually this is incorrect. ViceGrip is in California...and he's a good Ness.

As for the rest of your post:

Honestly, I actually agree with a lot of it. But yeah as for ratios, I hate giving them because during a match I'm not going to care, I'm going to want to know WHAT to do. If I absolutely had to give this a ratio it'd be 55:45 or 60:40, nothing higher (even though 5 is just...not worth arguing or getting mad over).

Isn't Vicegrip NorCal? I seriously don't remember any Ness's in any of the tournaments I've attended here in SoCal... =\

Those 5 points AREN'T worth arguing over (I used to think they were, and I LOL at that former self) - which is why I believe in using a "scale" measurement:

Unwinnable - Strong Disadvantage - Disadvantage - Neutral - Advantage - Strong Advantage - Free Win

That being said, the two ends arguably don't exist (least for Brawl)

There are no numbers in this, because all that matters is "You are at a disadvantage" not "the matchup is 55:45 or 60:40 or maybe even 62:48 because we're the Pika boards"

:leek:

 

[Yink]

Isn't Vicegrip NorCal? I seriously don't remember any Ness's in any of the tournaments I've attended here in SoCal... =\

Those 5 points AREN'T worth arguing over (I used to think they were, and I LOL at that former self) - which is why I believe in using a "scale" measurement:

Unwinnable - Strong Disadvantage - Disadvantage - Neutral - Advantage - Strong Advantage - Free Win

That being said, the two ends arguably don't exist (least for Brawl)

There are no numbers in this, because all that matters is "You are at a disadvantage" not "the matchup is 55:45 or 60:40 or maybe even 62:48 because we're the Pika boards"

:leek:

Ah, you didn't say what part of CA. You just said CA so, my bad.

I agree, I'd say then he's at a Disadvantage. I mean I'd say more but everybody's said most of the stuff I usually say.

 

[SuSa]

That was my bad, typo then. I don't attend NorCal tourneys, and AFAIK have only ever played like 1-2 NorCal players (which was at Active Gamers... haha.. Me+DSF teaming agains Ally+#1 NorCal MK at the time).... that was one of them... could've sworn I fought against another. Meh..

:leek:

 

[typh]

if you play a low tier character susa is an unstoppable wall

take it from me

i have no idea what thread this is

 

[SuSa]

if you play a low tier character susa is an unstoppable wall

take it from me

i have no idea what thread this is

Do you stalk me sometimes?

We need to take a picture together at Havok's tourney so people can see exactly how much we look alike... haha

:leek:

 

[typh]

i name search like 6 times a day even though i'm not famous any more