Ness vs Shiek. How bad does Shiek have the advantage?

[Smashbros_7]

Do not forget that Sheik has needles to disrupt PK Thunder recovery. Sheik also is a much better edgehogger than Ness. Its up B grants it invincibility frames right before exploding, I think. This allows it to override PKT2.

If Sheik has Ness over the edge at a point where he needs PKT2 to recover, chances are he'll die from fair/nair.

What? That didn't make any sense. You said that the needles cancel out PKT (hard to hit PKT, since when airborne needles travel down. And since Sheik needs to jump to hit Ness PKT, SHE SHE SHE will miss. Not it.

Up B near PKT2 is not the easiest thing to do.
1. Tail whip Shiek
2. It's speed
3. Shiek could potentially die.

**** Raph, just main those 2 characters THEN give us feedback on them. Chances are, if you've had matches against them (if they were online...) you won't get the right amount of feedback.

 

[ADHD]

Sheik has the advantage!

She does against lucas too.

 

[Sudsy86_]

AND CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME THIS FTILT LOCK!

(Does it only affect Ness?)

Ftilt affects the majority of characters very similarly.

Also, I'm not sure Shiek has the advantage over my Ness--at least not how I play both characters. I know most view Ness as a slow-moving, PK Fire and grab-based character, but many don't seem to realize how fluidly Ness moves in all directions with his air dodges.

He's not as great as Shiek is in that way, but he moves fluidly has a HIGHLY effective air game, and has PK thunder which, when you chase opponents with it precisely, will automatically him them regardless of how fast they continuously tap the dodge buttons.

I don't see how Ness has a disadvantage here, considering he lives for a pretty long time, and since Shiek isn't very powerful, any misses by Shiek can result in bread and butter PK fire combos or back throws, depending on the space between characters.

 

[Sudsy86_]

What? That didn't make any sense. You said that the needles cancel out PKT (hard to hit PKT, since when airborne needles travel down. And since Sheik needs to jump to hit Ness PKT, SHE SHE SHE will miss. Not it.

I'm not sure if the needles affect the thunder, but if they do, she can needle his thunder right as he starts the partial circle, causing him to fall to his death.

That's a huge plus for Shiek if this is true.

 

[Earthbound360]

Please, needle gimping is hard to time and Ness can stall his fall with SPIM to prevent crap like that. Apparently I was adressed in the above posts. I'll get down to digesting the flames and comments when I feel like it.

 

[Brinzy]

People, I'm talking about using needles to hit NESS.

What? That didn't make any sense. You said that the needles cancel out PKT (hard to hit PKT, since when airborne needles travel down. And since Sheik needs to jump to hit Ness PKT, SHE SHE SHE will miss. Not it.

Up B near PKT2 is not the easiest thing to do.
1. Tail whip Shiek
2. It's speed
3. Shiek could potentially die.

**** Raph, just main those 2 characters THEN give us feedback on them. Chances are, if you've had matches against them (if they were online...) you won't get the right amount of feedback.

No I didn't say they cancel out PKT. IT can easily hit Ness, and he has to Up B again, but Sheik can just grab the ledge now.

Also, you're not getting what I mean by Up B. You wouldn't Up B "near" Ness, you'd up B near the end of PKT2.

Read everything in this thread before you start criticizing me for the umpteenth time.

 

[Dekar]

I play against a really good Shiek main every day, it aint easy. If he and i actually have something down on the match 7 times out of 10 i go with my other main, lucas =3. But him maining shiek in melee was why i had to pick up falco and stuff in the first place so.. go figure xD

 

[Brinzy]

Right, you go with Lucas for a reason. Name that reason.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I play against a really good Shiek main every day, it aint easy. If he and i actually have something down on the match 7 times out of 10 i go with my other main, lucas =3. But him maining shiek in melee was why i had to pick up falco and stuff in the first place so.. go figure xD

I can't understand what you wrote. Someone. RAPH, translate. Something about picking up Falco, and he mained Shiek. And switching to Lucas from Ness??? 7 times of 10 something happens?

 

[Brinzy]

"I play against a really good Sheik main everyday. It's not easy. If he and I actually have a bet on a match, 70% of the time I'll use Lucas instead. He used Sheik in Melee also, so I used Falco back then because there was no Lucas, so yeah, I don't like fighting Sheik with Ness."

 

[camzaman]

LOL at the needed translation. Well done.

 

[Nestec]

Wait, hold on, if Sheik grabbed the ledge, couldn't Ness sweetspot the ledge and hit her?

 

[imdavid]

sheik can tether the ledge causing ness to simply hit the ledge and bounce off ;p if that's too complicated, she can tether the edge and get the invincibility frames whenever she wants

sheik has hard time KO-ing, ness has probably best DI and is hard to kill
sheik can transform to zelda and, perhaps lets say said sheik player is a good zelda player, then said sheik player will get the kill

ness has good air game
sheik's air game has been partially nerfed, but is still considered to be "okay"
ness has slow air momentum
sheik has fast air momentum
ness has pkt which can screw sheik up
sheik can cancel a pkt with fair if timed right
etc etc

look at things whatever way you want

 

[Brinzy]

Wait, hold on, if Sheik grabbed the ledge, couldn't Ness sweetspot the ledge and hit her?

Yeah, like the above person said, the reason why Sheik is such a nasty edgeguarder is because it has needles to disrupt recovery AND it can tether. It's pretty irritating, especially since it can tether the edge at such a high speed.

 

[Nestec]

Ah, ok, so tethering can offer safe edgehogging? Hm, didn't know that. >_<

 

[Ztarfish]

If someone is tether edgehogging you, aim for them, it'll kill you, yeah, but they probably wont expect it and die themselves. Though of course the smartest thing for them to do would be to pull up as you hit yourself.

Sheik is a nasty ***** to Ness, mostly cause he's probably one of the easiest members of the cast for her to bair edgeguard to death. That being said I don't think it'd be wise to ever use PKT2 to recover unless it's absolutely necessary.

Also, the transform to Zelda thing is legit. And also a pain in the ***.

 

[Uffe]

This is still here? Zelda vs Ness = Neutral

 

[Ztarfish]

all Zelda has to do is land one kill move. She has plenty. Zelda vs. Ness might be neutral, but Sheik can rack up damage like a crazy mofo, and Zelda can kill like a crazy mofo. That's quite the combination.

 

[Uffe]

Technically this topic is Zelda vs Ness. I know Sheik is Zelda, but that doesn't show what advantages she has over Ness since it's Sheik, a character with a different moveset and speed. So if you're going to rely on Sheik and then transform into Zelda hoping to win, then you're pretty much saying that Zelda has no advantage.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I thought this thread was titled "Ness vs. Sheik", though...

 

[goodkid]

There is another topic for Zelda

 

[Uffe]

>< I hadn't noticed. I apologize.

 

[Nestec]

Hey, how do you guys feel about this being a 60-40 advantage for Sheik?

I'm thinking about submitting this thread to DanGR to help with his match-up project. We should do our part in the project to help, so the Ness mainers don't look like lazy bums! ^__^

If we're all okay with that here, I'm gonna go get the attention of the Sheik mainers, so they can approve.

 

[Zankoku]

I still say it's 70-30. If having the ability to bring Ness to 80% off of landing an attack with a 4-frame startup isn't a big advantage, I don't know what is. Sheik can kill people on edgeguard more effectively than some people are giving her credit for. Her ground speed is superb compared to Ness. If Transform is forbidden for the matchup, Sheik can just play a big game of "ftilt you to 80%, play a game of don't get hit until you're at 160%, and KO with fair or uair." She's not slow, after all.

Ness's options are his priority-loaded aerials and a pretty good projectile game, along with a killing throw.

Of course, there's like nobody who plays Sheik/Ness to an acceptable level and lives by someone who plays the other character to the same level, so...

 

[Uffe]

Yeeeah. Her f-tilt isn't exactly something to worry about. That's pretty easy to escape for Ness. He's not the lightest character, but he also isn't the heaviest. Also, transformation is forbidden in this match-up. Why? Because this is Ness vs Sheik, not Ness vs Zelda.

 

[Zankoku]

I've yet to hear of someone who's able to "easily escape" an ftilt lock, except for the characters who don't get locked (like Luigi, Mario, and Peach) and Marth (because of his invincible on frames 1-5 Up+B). Tell me how you're escaping this so easily.

 

[Uffe]

At the first kick all Ness has to do is shield. I only got 5 - 10% damage and that's in Training Mode. You can easily shield or you can just DI the direction Sheik is kicking. Heck my brother tried it on a level 3 CPU and it got out almost effortlessly. Sheik's f-tilt may be good on bigger opponents, but it really isn't the greatest attack on a character like Ness. Even Samus can get out of this and she's the fifth heaviest character in the game.

 

[Zankoku]

You're starting the ftilts waaaayyy too early of a %, and you're probably not getting the right timing for the IASA either. Start the % at around 20 and ftilts will work until around 70-80%. Size and weight don't have that much to do with how ftilt works - after all, it works just as well on Fox as it does on Wolf as it does on Meta Knight. Kirby can get ftilted three or four times into an upsmash.

DIing Sheik's ftilt away is actually the worst DI possible and kind of proves to me that you're doing it wrong. : \

Anyway, following is a list of characters that cannot get tiltlocked:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Samus
Marth (sorta... this is only because he can invulnerable Up+B to break out)
ROB
Sonic
Ice Climbers (sorta... this is more having to do with the two of them thing)
Jigglypuff

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, you have to DI towards Sheik to get out of it, but then a good Sheik will Up Smash when you get to that point. Ftilt lock IS dangerous, and it's very hard to escape. I agree with 70-30 for reasons I stated before.

 

[Uffe]

You're starting the ftilts waaaayyy too early of a %, and you're probably not getting the right timing for the IASA either. Start the % at around 20 and ftilts will work until around 70-80%. Size and weight don't have that much to do with how ftilt works - after all, it works just as well on Fox as it does on Wolf as it does on Meta Knight. Kirby can get ftilted three or four times into an upsmash.

DIing Sheik's ftilt away is actually the worst DI possible and kind of proves to me that you're doing it wrong. : \

Anyway, following is a list of characters that cannot get tiltlocked:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Samus
Marth (sorta... this is only because he can invulnerable Up+B to break out)
ROB
Sonic
Ice Climbers (sorta... this is more having to do with the two of them thing)
Jigglypuff

That's what they all say. I'm doing it wrong. I did it again. 20% this time, got hit once, perfect shielded the next time. 30% is when Ness has a harder time to escape. He can escape around 50%. But in a real match Sheik's f-tilt would decay and this is pretty useless against a Ness mainer who uses Ness' aerial game more than his ground game.

 

[Brinzy]

In a real match, decay IS what keeps Ness inside ftilt lock. It decays to 2 or 3%... that is, after you've taken a good 30% from it, and THEN you get Up Smashed, which can 1) kill Ness before 100% if just the first part of it hits, or 2) dish out nasty damage and put Ness in the 100% range anyway. It doesn't matter if Ness uses his aerial game more. He can't stay in the air forever, and Sheik can just shield -> ftilt lock in the same way you'd shield-grab. It is far from useless.

 

[Zankoku]

Hell, Sheik can shieldgrab -> grab release -> ftilt lock on Ness.

 

[Nestec]

Okay, so 70-30? And if we can't agree on that, then 65-35, lol. Either way, slight advantage for Sheik, assuming that DanGR is going with 75-25 as the break-off point for Large Advantage. Which makes more sense to me anyway. ;P

 

[Uffe]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be training with Sheik against someone who barely started playing as Ness and a person who knows how to play Ness really good. Both these people play Ness differently so I can try and get both styles together to see who really has the advantage. Okay? Okay.

 

[Gaussis]

I've yet to hear of someone who's able to "easily escape" an ftilt lock, except for the characters who don't get locked (like Luigi, Mario, and Peach) and Marth (because of his invincible on frames 1-5 Up+B). Tell me how you're escaping this so easily.

If Marth can escape even due to hitstun, wouldn't it mean that there is some time to react? Ness's nair comes to mind. Would nair break the lock? I'm kind of curious because you mentioned Marth's Up-B which to my knowledge cannot be done during hitstun.

 

[Levitas]

Nair doesn't break the lock. The best way is to SDI the hit up and towards sheik during the 6 frames of hitlag, then airdodge if appropriate to avoid the ftilt that will come to catch you in the other direction.

 

[Zankoku]

Marth's Up+B only works because he's invulnerable on frames 1-5. If you've got something that hits on frame 1 or becomes invulnerable, then go ahead.

 

[Levitas]

And we don't...

 

[Nestec]

Ok, so, Nessboarders? Are we at least agreeing on Small Disadvantage for Ness? I guess we can figure out numbers later.

 

[Levitas]

I'd agree w/ that.