Ness vs. Jigglypuff

[T-block]

Whoa whoa... that sounds a lot like what Squirtle can do.

How big is the slide?

 

[Eagleye893]

Not even. It's basically a usmash, but you pivot and jump like you would to prepare for a rar, but you jumpcancel a usmash. Tapjump on would make it easier. The usmash helps to cover the rear as well and can serve for mindgames when reversed like that.

 

[T-block]

There's no slide? That's lame.

So if I were to run to the right, then quickly quarter circle from left to up and then hit A, that would be the correct inputs, right?

If you make those inputs as Squirtle, you slide the length of FD while doing a u-smash =P

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah I know... I just use a slightly more sensible version of saying that. And its not AERIAL, but more just RRJCUsmash. or RJCUSR

Actually, it is aerial, because it's a jump cancel. You can't jump cancel something that isn't aerial. Albeit I dislike the term RAR overall and would rather it be a pivot jump or something like that.

@T-block: those inputs sound correct.

 

[Eagleye893]

Tapjump off you need to throw in a jump before you press a, but you need to be pushing up as you press a. It is very strictly timed with tapjump off, but what you just described is tapjump on. The thing is that you have to execute it the instant you pivot for any effect.

 

[Uffe]

What are you guys talking about? I've never heard of this RARJCU. Is that just a reversed Hyphen Smash?

 

[T-block]

Not really... you're pivoting, cancelling your pivot with a jump, and then cancelling your jump with an u-smash.

Go try it with Squirtle. You'll know you do it right when you slide far, fast.

 

[Eagleye893]

THATS WHAT I WAS SAYING, but rPSI disagrees.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That's what I was saying. I just said the technical name.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I can't believe you guys think ness' f-air is actually good in this match-up it truly isn't. Jigglypuff has one of the best aerial speed, that combined with how light she is makes it extremely easy for her to DI out of Ness F-air. She can potentially even punish it if she DI's properly, with Nair and Fair. Nair is by far a better aerial to use against her, however have fun trying to hit her through a pound or bair.

Ness has a difficult time with Jiggz, the only reason this match-up would be 55- 45 Ness rather than even is because Ness can RELIABLY kill jigglypuff early. Otherwise this match-up is even.

 

[Delta-cod]

I can't believe you guys think ness' f-air is actually good in this match-up it truly isn't. Jigglypuff has one of the best aerial speed, that combined with how light she is makes it extremely easy for her to DI out of Ness F-air. She can potentially even punish it if she DI's properly, with Nair and Fair. Nair is by far a better aerial to use against her, however have fun trying to hit her through a pound or bair.

Ness has a difficult time with Jiggz, the only reason this match-up would be 55- 45 Ness rather than even is because Ness can RELIABLY kill jigglypuff early. Otherwise this match-up is even.

I actually believe most of us think Fair is iffy against Jiggs for exactly that reason, although it is still a tool and usable, it should not be spammed/walled.

 

[Uffe]

Not really... you're pivoting, cancelling your pivot with a jump, and then cancelling your jump with an u-smash.

Go try it with Squirtle. You'll know you do it right when you slide far, fast.

I would try it. But I'm not going to play Brawl today or even bother asking my brother to use it. I'll just go with what you're saying. If that doesn't allow Ness to slide, then you're just better off doing a reversed Hyphen Smash. At least that moves you somewhat.

 

[PK-ow!]

FAir's only use is against shield, and some flawed characters that it just brutally ***** in air-to-air. Everywhere it looks like it works, is because people still aren't SDIing this move.

So, translated for Jigglypuff, Ness' FAir is as good as the opponent is bad. Who shields with Jigglypuff?

Indeed, think about cutting this from your play vs. Jiggs entirely, and see what you can do with NAir, or vertical spacing. Puff's DAir has your FAir's problems, and UAir is not instantaneous.


Since this can't be stressed enough: Play super cautious, and make Jiggs break you open, because if you're put offstage, you're gone. You cannot afford to make it that easy for Puff. Play gay and ignore seemingly obvious or free opportunities. Do not let Jiggs have a chance at that gimp.
However, ignore this early on, since Jiggs has unsafe-on-hit moves before your damage goes up enough. >_> Play recklessly and get that damage lead.

 

[Eagleye893]

Hey, PK-ow... Didn't you used to main ness too? Idk.

IMO, fair isn't that good for shield pressure either (grab or good OoS options beat it outright), so I use it to vary my attack; I often go in with nair or bair or grounded options which are slightly more shortranged, so I switch up by using fair outside the distance that I would be punished for using the nair or bair or dtilt. Also, fair out of dtilt is normal to get away if I fail with it.

But that isn't specifically jiggz. For jiggz specific, get at her from the front and don't let her bair you. Her bair is quick and can (I'm pretty sure) beat a ness bair and most likely be planned correctly to outspace ness' nair. Since that isn't going to happen all the time, approach somewhat safely and if you feel like you're going to get hit, shield and OoS fair if the attack is super well spaced or OoS nair for nearer attempts at hitting you. I like ness' OoS options and overall ground>air possibilities, so I often just wait it out safely and if I feel a well spaced approach, I just shield and react.

Again with the issue of fair, it is meant as a switchup now instead of your main attack. If a character can get through your fair, lean away from using it the most and instead go for the more safe nair and bair. Or even a general grounded strategy.

 

[Waael]

I played another Jiggs today, Fair is unusable most of the time against Jiggs, but I remember when me and Yink were talking on AIM one day, and she told me just to use Nair more often, and Nair works great. Lol The matches I did with that Jigglypuff was epic, especially on Smashville. I Spiked her with Dair and it killed her, she was on the Moving Ledge, and when I did Dair, she tried to get off the ledge by pressing down, and instead of her getting under it, it pushed her down through it and spiked her.

 

[Maniclysane]

I'm still firm on the idea that Jiggz speed and spacing gives her the upper hand in this fight. I think this matchup can go either way though, and the better player will almost always win, so I would still call this matchup 60:40 Jiggz, only because I think Ness has to work harder than the Jiggly player.

This is your matchup discussion though, so you guys can put down whatever you want.

 

[_clinton]

The idea of Jiggs speed and spacing being enough to give her a 6:4 would work better for an argument if Ness was "Ganondorf slow" and didn't have any good spacing moves as well.

 

[Waael]

I'm still firm on the idea that Jiggz speed and spacing gives her the upper hand in this fight. I think this matchup can go either way though, and the better player will almost always win, so I would still call this matchup 60:40 Jiggz, only because I think Ness has to work harder than the Jiggly player.

This is your matchup discussion though, so you guys can put down whatever you want.

I agree with you, Jigg's can easily edge game Ness most of the time.

 

[Eagleye893]

...

No... Just no. Ness never needs to work hard to win against jiggz. Seriously. WTF is this?!?!

The only characters that ness truly has a difficult time with are falco, snake, DDD, Marth, and MK. Wario is Meh; diddy is okay because we Get the djc banana and have a fairly easy time getting control of nannerz; pika is lol gimme health; GnW is a bit hard, but not as hard as some characters; I could go off listing stuff, but jiggz DEFINITELY DOESN'T beat ness. jiggz always needs to work hard for the win due to the light weight and fairly predictable other stuff.

EDIT: CHRONO?!?!? what?

Ugh... You people and your inconsistent edge knowledge... Trust me, ness isn't dead offstage unless you move wrong. You can get gimped by dsmash or a funny sourspot hit, but if you are playing right you will never be below the stage offstage or without your dj before arriving near the stage.

 

[Uffe]

Just go with what the majority says here. I don't mean to just ignore everything Maniclysane said, either. I'm saying that if there are more Jigglypuff mains agreeing that the match up is even or 55:45, whoever, then just go with that. Everything said in here from both sides should be taken under consideration and compiled into a summary.

 

[PK-ow!]

Just go with what the majority says here. I don't mean to just ignore everything Maniclysane said, either. I'm saying that if there are more Jigglypuff mains agreeing that the match up is even or 55:45, whoever, then just go with that. Everything said in here from both sides should be taken under consideration and compiled into a summary.

We can most of us or all of us be wrong.

Truth isn't a democracy.

Spoiler

A shame it's not an oligarchy, either; Ness would be escaping more Marth grabs right now.

*~*~*~

It's not that Jiggs has to work harder, full stop. Certainly, to tap into the full benefits of Jigg aerial ****, the Jiggs has to have good drift control and spacing. This requires a fine technique, which, pro or not, is a large enough tax of your opponent's resources. "Large enough" in the following sense (unless he plays Jiggs in his sleep):

In any case, though, it means that small movements from you are how you fight the process. In general, Ness' NAir shouldn't work against Jiggs because her BAir is still massively disjointed and fast (the bubble even appears before she kicks). But if you walk around or do small drifts here and there, you can create problems faster than the other guy can solve on reaction. You create large changes in what is correct for him to do via small changes of your own. (The essence of all MUs, I guess.) This is how you confront Jiggs.


I can't stress vertical spacing hard enough either. BAir can hit below Ness. His other aerials have great reach in the nonobvious areas. Jiggs meanwhile has huge aerials, yes, but try her out (or take a look at the .pac visible bubbles craze) and they miss areas just a little out of the way, up or down.

On this point, I'm theory crafting. I didn't consciously think of this until... when I wrote that other post. (There's no regular Jiggs main here.) I have played Jiggs with Ness, and I do think what I'm saying here makes sense with my recollection of games I've played.
So, I know Jiggs can fine tune her position in an air-to-air with multijumps, and you don't have that but you do have Ness jump. However, I trust this because I can't think of how else Ness could fight Jiggs. When I think about the data it seems too easy once you've just got natural Jiggs control down. When you air-to-air, use that vertical misalignment. I think I implicitly did this until now. Now I'll try manipulating it consciously.

 

[_clinton]

jiggz always needs to work hard for the win due to the light weight and fairly predictable other stuff.

Well that and there is no 100% way to set up a KO with Jiggs. Plus Ness has (way) better KO moves overall, making Jiggs come to him, and has more range to work with to a point.

Of course on that note, I can see we all have some difficult matches we just don't like then huh? (My least favorite character to fight with Ness and Lucas is "all of them" when they are really good with them ^_^, and I've fought "everyone")

 

[Yink]

Alright, I think this has gone on long enough. I'm going to lock the thread and use some helpful posts as write-ups for a summary. I thank everyone for joining in this discussion and very much appreciate it.

Good job guys!