Ness vs. Jigglypuff

[Yink]

Ness Match-Up Rediscussion #4

Jigglypuff vs. Ness​

Absorbable Projectiles: No
Normal Projectiles: No
Grab Release on Ness: No

• Or if there is, do tell.

The Jigglypuff Board Match-Up Discussion: Click Me!
Jigglypuff's Frame Data: Click Me!


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Terminology:

Spoiler

PKF = PK Fire
PKFL (PKFl) = PK Flash
PKT = PK Thunder (as the ball and tail itself)
PKT2 = PK Thunder 2 (where the ball has hit Ness, sending him flying)
PSIM - PSI Magnet
DAS = Double Aerial Shuffle...a technique used by Ness
AC = Auto-Cancel
SHAD = Short Hop Air Dodge
SH = Short Hop
FS = Footstool

Any other ones, like nair (Neutral Air) will not be explained, seeing as most people know what they mean. If you however don't know, just ask.

Summary:

Spoiler

Jigglypuff:

Ness:

• Old: 60:40 Jiggs

• New: 50:50 or 55:45 Ness

*NOTE*: The purpose of this is to get a ratio as an approximation. The discussion for this thread is for the purpose of learning the match-up and what both sides can do or can't...it is not a thread for arguing if a ratio is 5 off or anything trivial.


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Please keep yourselves on track and do not flame or troll. Be civil and let's have a good discussion men (and women).

 

[Meccs]

Gah, I hate fighting Jiggs.
Jiggs outranges Ness in the air and can out-approach him.
Jiggs bair/fair > Ness' fair?
Pound stops PKT head.
Like Kirby, has an easier time gimping cause of the multiple jumps.
Though Jiggs is a lightweight so is killed earlier. Probably around 90% for bthrow?
I don't know a lot about Jiggs but Id assume she has a lot more trouble killing Ness does than Ness does killing her.
I'd say 55-45 Jiggs.
...
(hopes he's right)

 

[Chuee]

Gah, I hate fighting Jiggs.
Jiggs outranges Ness in the air and can out-approach him.
False
Jiggs bair/fair > Ness' fair?
False
Pound stops PKT head.
True
Like Kirby, has an easier time gimping cause of the multiple jumps.
True
Though Jiggs is a lightweight so is killed earlier. Probably around 90% for bthrow?
Ehh I wouldn't say 90, maybe around 100 or so.
I don't know a lot about Jiggs but Id assume she has a lot more trouble killing Ness does than Ness does killing her.
True
I'd say 55-45 Jiggs.
False
...
(hopes he's right)

Probably 50-50 - 55-45 slight Ness, because he can outspace Jiggz with Fair and kill her a lot earlier than she can kill him if she doesn't get a gimp.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Jiggler has a huge advantage off-stage. Ness has very few recovery options and they are all easily gimped. Ness has a superior ground game and can hold his own in the air as well.

Her high air speed makes her somewhat difficult to spike, plus this puts you in a very bad position if you miss, so be careful if you attempt one. Stay far from the edges and bait Jiggler to the center of the stage. If she tries to camp off-stage, don't take the bait, and use PK Thunder.

This matchup can go either way, but I think a smart Ness may have an advantage.
50-50?

 

[Chuee]

don't take the bait, and use PK Thunder.

Pound
10Pounds

 

[#HBC | J]

uhm hi Ness' ;D

i'd say this MU is about even but ill input/write something up later ^_^

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, how is everyone assuming the absolute stupidest situation. Ness OBVIOUSLY has an advantage over jiggz. Really. I don't understand how he DOESN'T have an advantage. Sure, there aren't many people who know much of the Jiggz matchup, but that certainly doesn't affect a matchup.

If I'm right, a matchup is meant to encompass 2 players (one of each character) playing with all the knowledge of their respective character and estimating the amount of times one character will win/lose to another out of 100.

Now that I've got that, we all know little about Jiggz. NEARLY NOBODY plays jiggz. Really. That's a safe statement to claim. But we can't assume that will mean an automatic favoring of jiggz.

Now to go into actual matchup stuff... here's what we've got as ness mains.

--Fair outranges much of Jiggz's stuff.
--Lightweight opponent = much easier time killing with bthrow/utilt/usmash/etc.
--Dtilt is always a good option, even in the tougher ness matchups.
--Dash attack is well ranged and can get opponents caught off guard.
--PKFire is good at keeping distanced pressure.
--PKT mindgames (what i'm geting at here is that while pound CAN cancel pkt, it has a slow enough startup time for most ness mains to read it and readjust so that you can hit with the head or tail)
--PSImagnet (there's nothing to absorb, but a majority of attacks can be pushed back just enough by the wind because of how short-ranged/non-disjointed Jiggz' attacks are)
--Ftilt (it can stop marth's Fsmash if done correctly, so I'd assume it can stop jiggz' Fsmash or just punish as usual)
--Utilt (can't juggle, but earlier kills... also, mindgames)
--Usmash/Dsmash (further launch on both, thus more useful... dsmash is less reliable though, because it can be DI'd out of much more easily than usmash can)
--Fsmash (ours isn't that great...)
--Bair (it's not like it CAN'T go through. It's still useful)
--Fair (main defensive attack)
--Uair (more viable for killing)
--Nair (still quick, meaning still able to use OoS or otherwise)
--Dair (meh)
--Fthrow (meh in this match)
--Dthrow (meh as well, but I've got lots of mindgames with it)
--Uthrow (okay enough... easy enough to chase a floaty with pkt)
--Bthrow (kill)
.... I've covered basically every useful attack I don't like jab or pkflash in any situation, but I use it if needed.

Jiggz has...
--Good bair... it's like kirby bair, but so weirder-looking and slightly faster.
--Good fair: kills if done right. Having multiple jumps helps for getting those offstage kills with fair.
--Multiple jumps: possible gimps are given with this... But honestly, I don't see how anyone can outsmart me.... I can screw up in my mindgame recovery, but If you try to gimp me... You just jump right into a pkt2 AND I get the ledge...
--Rest: ok, sure it can get the kill on us quickly if we screw up... My advice: don't screw up. If you do, just shield and you get a free Fsmash to jiggz' face.
--Ground options: I agree with someone, ftilt for jiggz is so bad... I haven't seen it... utilt is hella good. Probably better than kirby's ftilt in some cases (although i doubt that is the case EVER)... dtilt is meh. It's okay. Fsmash can get you if you are careless. Dsmash is okay for jiggz actually, considering it puts us in a bad situation for recovery. Usmash is okay... you've got your DACUS and your other thing... A good jiggz can get this in quickly and get a ness who failed with his lagless PKFire. Dash attack is fairly good.... jab is quick, like everyone's jab.... don't know much great about jiggz' jab though.
--Air options: Bair is good for spacing and is really quick. Nair can be like kirby's nair, but I'd assume with slightly more knockback. Fair is good for killing. Uair can catch some people offguard. Dair can lead to a rest if done right, but also just pressure your shield and other things.
--Rollout: okay... I think it's stupid that this is even thought of as a good option for jiggz... really. Even psi magnet can kill this... I'm serious! just push the jiggz off the ledge, they go low, you get dair or footstool or pkfire or percent. Sure, they can avoid ledges (as I'd assume they'll do)... but even then, you get a fairly good option of OoS FH nair, then follow to get the punish. Grab OoS if you time it perfectly (not recommended). Usmash or Dsmash at the right time (OoS usmash, bitte). PKfire at the perfect place. Sure they can mindgame you, but If you place yourself right in how you set up to deal with it, it's useless. PKT tailwhip can stop it outright... BOOM roasted!
--Sing: Wasted UpB... we keep distance and pkfire if it's even though of as using on ledge (time it right, ness mains!) off-ledge is suicide, essentially.
--Rest: good, but not great. Can save a jiggz at times... but so can our PKT2!!!!!!!!
--Pound: I HATE THE PRIORITY ON THIS THING!!! JIGGZ CAN BOAST THIS MOVE ALL THEY WANT, AND I WON'T FIGHT 'EM ABOUT IT!!! REALLY! This is deadly if used right. Keep distance with fair, Perfect shield, Shield and OoS nair/grab... But really, there is a lot to help a jiggz main out with this. It stops our aerials if we aren't careful.

I don't understand you guys... Sure, jiggz has some powerful options, but overall there isn't much that can overpower ness as can any of ness' other bad MUs.... In theory (both players playing to the best of their abilities with their characters and what is available), ness should win a lot of the time.

55:45 or even 60:40 Ness. It's in no way even. You guys be forgetting your PSImag and dtilt madness! xD

 

[Meccs]

So, baisically, Jiggs' only advantage is offstage?

 

[Eagleye893]

So, baisically, Jiggs' only advantage is offstage?

No... not what i was saying....

I hate giving stuff on MUs.... There is too much that goes on during a match to actually narrow it down to a specific percent. ANYTHING can happen. ANYONE can find an opening in any other opponent's flaws. The quickness of jiggz' bair and other ground options give much viability onstage for him as well as offstage, but fair can outrange the bair. Sure, Fair leaves us open to other things as well.... There are too many chains of events and different scenarios for me to cover in a few minutes to get all the juice out of a matchup, but That's where I stand... It should be ness' advantage, but not by an extraordinary amount. Jiggz can catch us in several ways, but ness can catch jiggz in slightly more/almost as many ways AND can kill earlier.

I don't know much about jiggz' grabs TBH. All I know is that they are fairly quick or its that one thing where jiggz rolls on top of you.

 

[_clinton]

Yeah, I don't know why everyone is saying it is equal or even in Jiggs favor as well, WTF is up with that people? Fun fact though, Jiggs has a very nice running grab and can perform 2 Bairs or Fairs (or a bair/fair to Nair) in one short hop, and overall I'm sure a fresh Fair could smack us if we have to air grab release (not 100% sure though).

Jiggs Dthrow is the best **** ever as well (not because of it putting you into a bad position, but rather because of how much fun it is to "taunt" with it).

Personally though, I hate Jiggs 1st jump.

Oh and remember, if Jiggs hits you with rollout, it puts her into a freefalling stat.

 

[Jayford]

REPOSTED!!!!

Hi my name is Jayford and I am pretty much the best Puff main ever. Here is how you don’t lose to bads that play Puff.


Bair: This is pretty much Puff’s main approach. There is a common misconception that it is easy to punish with fair, but that isn’t the case. Puff can jump in the middle of the bair and arc above you right about you after a bair hits. So you can just jump OoS and fair her. If she does arc above you and doesn’t go high enough you can uair OoS and hit her.

Nair: It seems like I’m the only Puff that uses this move, but omg it’s pretty broken. If Puff auto cancels it and you shield it then she has a ton of options. If you stay in shield after it hits she can just grab you. If you drop shield she can just uptilt you and if you try and roll she can fsmash or rest you out of the roll. So look out for this move and try and mix up your response to it. Also, it seems like it retained a bit of its priority from Melee.

Dair: I never approach with it because bair is better for approaching. The only time I use it is when I need to hit someone recovering low, or when I am returning to the stage to protect myself. Also, I guess I sometimes use it for shield pressure and to poke.

Uair: It’s nothing really to amazing. You can get a few juggles off with it at lower percents and it can kill you if you’re really high. So don’t worry about this move.

Fair: The **** movie :D. If you sweet spot it and it’s fresh it can kill you at like 90%. Look out for this move and be ready to DI it. I’ll talk about it more when I talk about being off stage.

Ftilt: It’s a bad move, don’t worry about it.

Dilt: I guess it has ok range and can shield poke, but a good Puff probably won’t be using this.

Utilt: Puff’s best tilt imo. It can protect you if you auto cancel aerials and can combo at low percents look out for it.

Fmash: Her best smash. It has ok killing power and decent range. It’s got a decent amount of lag so you can punish it pretty easy. Most Puff players won’t be spaming this so you don’t have to worry about it to much. Just out for it when you roll, or when Puff auto cancel’s a nair.

Dmash: This move sucks.

Usmash: This move sucks, even if you DACUS it. If the Puff is dumb enough to use it just bat, bair, or grab them when they do it.

Pound: I think it beats all of Ness’s moves. Maybe a spaced fair will beat it. It also ****’s your shield. It’s got a lot of lag tho so if you predict it you can punish it pretty hard. This is one of my main approaches as Puff, but I space it really well, but there are a lot of bads who think they can play Puff and will not space this move right. So you can nair, fair, and maybe uair it oos. And if they do it by the edge dair them LOL.

Rest: This moves is pretty bad lmao so don’t worry about it that much. I only use it when I am trying to style on my opponent or when they have some super laggy move like Samus’s or ZSS’s grab. She really only has three opportunities to rest you in this match up.
1.) When you are falling from after a PKT2.
2.) If they predict a roll.
3.) If you tech or mistech on a platform. (I’ll talk about this more later.)

Sing: I like to use this move against bads looool. You can ledge cancel it so don’t **** around by the ledge to much. Other then that you shouldn’t ever get hit by it >.>. I know in melee if you get a ledge cancel sing off and you’re winning you can do it over and over until you win the match. I dunno if it works in Brawl because I’ve never tried it, but I would probably get DQed anyway because of the ledge grab rule lmao.

Rollout: My favorite move. I like to read for air dodges and hit with roll out. Also, it’s probably not always the best idea to punish it. Because if you mess up you can get rocked pretty hard. Also, Puff can mix up the timing on the rolls and stuff to mess up your punish. Play it safe and just shield or jump on a platform where she can’t get you.

Off Stage

The most important thing to remember when off stage is that Puff has a really slow vertical movement speed. So if you get knocked off the stage and she is flying towards you fast fall down and try and PKT2 yourself to the stage ASAP, because Puff’s are super scared of the move. It kills us at like 40% 0_0.

The other important thing to remember is to not get to predictable with air dodges. That is how Puff will get a lot of her kills is to read air dodges then fair. So don’t get predictable.

Random Important Stuff

1.) Don’t spam roll. I get a lot of my damage by predicting rolls and doing double bairs when people roll. Or you can get styled on and get rested out of roll.

2.) Don’t ever tech / miss tech on a platform. If you do Puff doesn’t even have to predict what you are going to do. If their reaction time isn’t awful they can rest you, uair, bair or nair just by reacting. So always DI away from platforms.

3.) Puff is top tier just no one realizes it yet :D.


Follow this advice and you should **** bad Puffs. Now you only have to fear awesome Puffs like me <3.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Reposting as well.

Okay, did a handful of matches with my friend, who *has yet to repost his report.

I was Jiggs, and he was Ness, but knowing a good amount about Ness, I can make a report for this character board (so far my favorite character board).

First things first, Jiggs may be known for her aerial gameplay, but I admit, Ness has the upper-hand, his nair I rarely saw, but his fair does indeed stop Jiggs SO LONG as it is done before she gets within aerial range, otherwise, her fair, and nair, outspeed the frames of Ness' fair. Rule: Keep Jiggs in the air, strangely she is not as much of an aerial diva as Ness is.

However, do not think that because she is in the air, you have full advantage, Jiggs has some strangely effective means of getting to ground if you do not get in the air as well. Your usmash(uncharged) will be stopped DEAD if you fight a clever Jiggs, because Jiggs can cancel your usmash(uncharged) with a properly timed fair or nair, those two moves are Jiggs' trump cards for aerial combat if you didn't already know.

Next we get onto advantage points, since we are so close to the topic:
Jiggs: Air/Ness: Ground
Contrary to popular belief, Jiggs surprisingly is the defensive one in this point, but her defense is stellar if you cannot manuever your tactics to your will. If Jiggs comes from up-top, and she's not clever enough, surprise her with a shortchage PK Flash, PK Flash will help greatly when defending Jiggs, as she is all CQC, also, if you fight a Jiggs that recovers with Rollout, and you mastered your PK Flash, you can tactically time a PK Flash that will be lethal to any minorly damaged Jiggs. (This being if you have superpowers, but surprisingly to me the odds for succeeding at this are quite decent if done right.) On a final note for this part, don't forget to shieldgrab and do your back-throw of death!

Jiggs: Ground/Ness: Ground
Okay, this is stalemate zone because Jiggs will most likely counter whatever you do with Pound, or it will be a dodge-grabfest. Most likely this will also rarely happen, as Jiggs users tend to take to the skies, so be prepared for the above, as Jiggs will attempt short-hop tilts to her advantage, be warned that she also speeds up in the air, and also will attempt short-hop pounds, which are MUCH faster than on the ground.

Jiggs: Ground/Ness: Air
Careful here, Jiggs has dangerous hitbubbles for all of Ness's aerial moves, your nair will help, but a smart Jiggs may outpredict and shield into a grab. Grabs are something that you need to be careful with, Jiggs may die from shieldbreak, but will most certainly not be afraid of shielding.

Jiggs: Air/Ness: Air

Hoo! You guys are lucky! Ness has the advantage in this match-up! Take to the skies, focus on basic A moves! PK moves have no use on Jiggs unless she's picking her nonexistant nose! And that goes for ground OR air! HOWEVER, be wary! Jiggs can still give you a fatal pound as she goes to the ground to defend her position! Do not take her lightly!

Final stance: Jiggs is a verily aggressive opponent, but you have a few moves to give yourself the upper hand. I say a good 55/45 Ness' advantage in my report.

Stages of choice:
In some tournaments, Norfair is allowed, LOVE NORFAIR, IT WILL CUDDLE YOU AT NIGHT WITH ITS PROPERLY PLACED PLATFORMS THAT ENABLE MORE CENTRAL AIR-PLAY.

Avoid stages that have centered platforms, Final Destination is your friend if you aren't at counterpicks.

Kray Z. Guy signing out! *unplugs self*

 

[Levitas]

Does jiggs still AC Dair > rest, or is there a better set up for it now?

This is one of those matches where the better player tends to win, btw. Even isn't quite right, it's more like advantage: person who knows what they should be doing and is better at it.

 

[#HBC | J]

This MU is actually fun =P.

--Fair outranges much of Jiggz's stuff.
--Lightweight opponent = much easier time killing with bthrow/utilt/usmash/etc.
--Dtilt is always a good option, even in the tougher ness matchups.
--Dash attack is well ranged and can get opponents caught off guard.
--PKFire is good at keeping distanced pressure.
--PKT mindgames (what i'm geting at here is that while pound CAN cancel pkt, it has a slow enough startup time for most ness mains to read it and readjust so that you can hit with the head or tail)
--PSImagnet (there's nothing to absorb, but a majority of attacks can be pushed back just enough by the wind because of how short-ranged/non-disjointed Jiggz' attacks are)
--Ftilt (it can stop marth's Fsmash if done correctly, so I'd assume it can stop jiggz' Fsmash or just punish as usual)
--Utilt (can't juggle, but earlier kills... also, mindgames)
--Usmash/Dsmash (further launch on both, thus more useful... dsmash is less reliable though, because it can be DI'd out of much more easily than usmash can)
--Fsmash (ours isn't that great...)
--Bair (it's not like it CAN'T go through. It's still useful)
--Fair (main defensive attack)
--Uair (more viable for killing)
--Nair (still quick, meaning still able to use OoS or otherwise)
--Dair (meh)
--Fthrow (meh in this match)
--Dthrow (meh as well, but I've got lots of mindgames with it)
--Uthrow (okay enough... easy enough to chase a floaty with pkt)
--Bthrow (kill)
.... I've covered basically every useful attack I don't like jab or pkflash in any situation, but I use it if needed.

Jiggz has...
--Good bair... it's like kirby bair, but so weirder-looking and slightly faster.
--Good fair: kills if done right. Having multiple jumps helps for getting those offstage kills with fair.
--Multiple jumps: possible gimps are given with this... But honestly, I don't see how anyone can outsmart me.... I can screw up in my mindgame recovery, but If you try to gimp me... You just jump right into a pkt2 AND I get the ledge...
--Rest: ok, sure it can get the kill on us quickly if we screw up... My advice: don't screw up. If you do, just shield and you get a free Fsmash to jiggz' face.
--Ground options: I agree with someone, ftilt for jiggz is so bad... I haven't seen it... utilt is hella good. Probably better than kirby's ftilt in some cases (although i doubt that is the case EVER)... dtilt is meh. It's okay. Fsmash can get you if you are careless. Dsmash is okay for jiggz actually, considering it puts us in a bad situation for recovery. Usmash is okay... you've got your DACUS and your other thing... A good jiggz can get this in quickly and get a ness who failed with his lagless PKFire. Dash attack is fairly good.... jab is quick, like everyone's jab.... don't know much great about jiggz' jab though.
--Air options: Bair is good for spacing and is really quick. Nair can be like kirby's nair, but I'd assume with slightly more knockback. Fair is good for killing. Uair can catch some people offguard. Dair can lead to a rest if done right, but also just pressure your shield and other things.
--Rollout: okay... I think it's stupid that this is even thought of as a good option for jiggz... really. Even psi magnet can kill this... I'm serious! just push the jiggz off the ledge, they go low, you get dair or footstool or pkfire or percent. Sure, they can avoid ledges (as I'd assume they'll do)... but even then, you get a fairly good option of OoS FH nair, then follow to get the punish. Grab OoS if you time it perfectly (not recommended). Usmash or Dsmash at the right time (OoS usmash, bitte). PKfire at the perfect place. Sure they can mindgame you, but If you place yourself right in how you set up to deal with it, it's useless. PKT tailwhip can stop it outright... BOOM roasted!
--Sing: Wasted UpB... we keep distance and pkfire if it's even though of as using on ledge (time it right, ness mains!) off-ledge is suicide, essentially.
--Rest: good, but not great. Can save a jiggz at times... but so can our PKT2!!!!!!!!
--Pound: I HATE THE PRIORITY ON THIS THING!!! JIGGZ CAN BOAST THIS MOVE ALL THEY WANT, AND I WON'T FIGHT 'EM ABOUT IT!!! REALLY! This is deadly if used right. Keep distance with fair, Perfect shield, Shield and OoS nair/grab... But really, there is a lot to help a jiggz main out with this. It stops our aerials if we aren't careful.

I don't understand you guys... Sure, jiggz has some powerful options, but overall there isn't much that can overpower ness as can any of ness' other bad MUs.... In theory (both players playing to the best of their abilities with their characters and what is available), ness should win a lot of the time.

55:45 or even 60:40 Ness. It's in no way even. You guys be forgetting your PSImag and dtilt madness! xD

Ima just go off of this if it's alright. Uhmmm Let's see why are you comparing Kirby/Jiggs so much? How is Jiggz Nair like Kirby's?

--PSImagnet (there's nothing to absorb, but a majority of attacks can be pushed back just enough by the wind because of how short-ranged/non-disjointed Jiggz' attacks are)

uhm have you seen Bair for Jiggs?
DJBrowny actually showed how her Bair is disjointed.

But PSIM shouldn't really be being used unless Jiggz is on one of her last jumps offstage then she will pitifully fall to her death ;____; (it is sooo sad to be gimped that way)

Bair carrying for Jiggs on Ness is a godsend. She can get him in the worst possible position which is offstage in this MU. Still it's not that big and can be messed up easily.

--Multiple jumps: possible gimps are given with this... But honestly, I don't see how anyone can outsmart me.... I can screw up in my mindgame recovery, but If you try to gimp me... You just jump right into a pkt2 AND I get the ledge...

This is kindof opininated instead of true facts. Jigglypuff can/will be able to gimp Ness actually really well. She can get hit by PKT, Nair PKT, Push Ness far enough away. Just be a wonderful puffball of "joy" to him >;3 I know a good Ness is really good at recovering but it's a nuisance for him. Try and stay onstage.

--Ground options: I agree with someone, ftilt for jiggz is so bad... I haven't seen it... utilt is hella good. Probably better than kirby's ftilt in some cases (although i doubt that is the case EVER)... dtilt is meh. It's okay. Fsmash can get you if you are careless. Dsmash is okay for jiggz actually, considering it puts us in a bad situation for recovery. Usmash is okay... you've got your DACUS and your other thing... A good jiggz can get this in quickly and get a ness who failed with his lagless PKFire. Dash attack is fairly good.... jab is quick, like everyone's jab.... don't know much great about jiggz' jab though.

Jiggz tilts>Jab besides Jiggz Jab lock. Dsmash is NOT okay for Jiggz, it has like no uses besides either a.) taunting or b.) edgegaurding maybe. Usmash is good when she gets a predicted AD or a roll DA. Fsmash is also a good smash when it's not sheilded (lol you should see it coming but can be a good punisher, imo I prefer DA)

--Air options: Bair is good for spacing and is really quick. Nair can be like kirby's nair, but I'd assume with slightly more knockback. Fair is good for killing. Uair can catch some people offguard. Dair can lead to a rest if done right, but also just pressure your shield and other things.

Uair can juggle at low percents though it would hurt to get spiked back to the stage .-. Dair only leads to rest if you trip (iirc). Bair is a good spacer/carrier.

Alright im done nitpicking =P

But in the end it is either even or slight advantage like Levitas said to the better player. It could go either way but it is in no way 60:40 :s

It's gonna be an air Battle between the two ^_^ Neither have a stellar ground game, Jiggly wins offstage, where Ness probably wins in the air.

 

[Eagleye893]

Comparison to Kirby b/c I second him. Lots of things seem similar, but kirby's bair keeps the hitbox there for longer.

I know bair is disjointed. I meant a majority for a reason. Lots of moves, but bair is an obvious exception.

It's all peoples assumptions that ness is easy to gimp. On the contrary, if the ness is smart (any actually higher up ness main), they can easily make everything play out to their advantage. Ness' dj allows plenty of crazy stuff to happen. If you are offstage directly above me, drop a lil bit more and dj with an airdodge. I get to stage. If not, I position a pkt2 at the perfect spot so I can get the ledge or stage even if you decide to edgehog. Rising fair pushes you back and is used in situations where we know we outrange you. Rising dair to catch you offguard. Rising bair means we get to the stage if done right.. I could argue forever about this and nobody will agree. If the ness keeps his positioning perfect, he CAN'T be gimped. I often do that, but wifi screws me up.

Okay, the next few things essentially agree with my opinion. I knew that. What do you use nair with though?

Also, taking the aggressive option pulls out the aggressive response. I played this card to try and bait out a good argument. If needed, people will argue their butt off to disprove a blind idiot. In reality, it should be 55:45 ness. I didn't think i shouldve put the 60:40, but it brought up the discussion and more jiggz mains are (hopefully) coming in. Thanks! I appreciate your input. xD in some instances, it could be dead even, but I believe there is enough of favor to ness to give the 55.

 

[Meccs]

Lol I always screw up trying to gimp Ness (If I'm Ness, Kirby, whoever). It's a lot harder than everyone thinks. And then I get dominated by PKT2

 

[Thebest1pj]

50:50 MU

why? Because there even in the aiir

 

[Eagleye893]

Lol I always screw up trying to gimp Ness (If I'm Ness, Kirby, whoever). It's a lot harder than everyone thinks. And then I get dominated by PKT2

I remember this with our wifi fwiendwies.... I think I ended up killing myself more often though with my kirby... I kept jumping right into your dair...

 

[Delta-cod]

Super theorycraft time go!

Although Fair can beat all of Jigg's aerials, she has the air mobility to sort of weave in and out of that and hit you anyways. Don't get predictable with your Fair walling. Personally, I'd stay grounded and try to punish things OoS, with whatever options are the best in the situation.

Note that although Jigglypuff is light, she can play very safe, which makes it hard to kill her. Make sure you don't get impatient when going for the kill and stay with smart options. Even if you're down a stock, don't get impatient. Try not to be down a stock in the first place, because Jigglypuff can be tricky to kill.

If you're getting Bair walled offstage, SDI down and through her into the stage, or SDI down and away. Don't get caught using your jump unless there's an opening for it. Getting caught offstage without your second jump is very bad, and will result in you getting gimped or taking a LOT of damage. Another approach to the Bair wall is to DI up to allow for an easier recovery, although this gives Jiggs an easier time to continue jumping at you and Bairing. I'd personally try to go down.

 

[Eagleye893]

Deltacod... I fully agree with Fair being a bad option overall. OoS is always extremely safe for ness.

I = smart. BOOM! Jiggz is done. xD. Smart ppl keep smart options.

Offstage? I can outsmart many crazy stuff like what a mario can do when we're offstage!
I only got gimped by a MK one year ago when I was supah dumb with everything. Now, I know basically every option that every character will use to try and exploit a ness' "bad recovery," and most of the options that an opponent has to counter us have big enough holes in them to have at least one way back to the stage. Notice the Italicizing of At Least. Sometimes you might get more percent on you, but that's less often.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Don't bother with PKT Jiggz can always d-air or pound through it. Your just setting yourself up for punishment if you use it.

 

[oOTjayOo]

I think probably 55 45 or 60 40 Ness because the only way jigglypuff looks like she could kill us is with fresh air moves or gimping. Ness has 2 good ways to kill jigglypuff at like 100-120%

 

[Man of Popsicle]

When I fight Jigglypuff I do one thing.
over.
and over.


I Uthrow.

Jiggs falls so slow, and her Dair isn't exactly great for covering herself, you can get in that PK Thunder, amongst other things. And if you're in the middle of the stage (small size) she almost can't rollout without dying.

 

[Chuee]

Pound and Dair > PKT

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Pound does not cover jiggs bottom.
You know, we don't have to PKT straight, and if you do Dair we can probably punish with Uair/Nair.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hah, you gave Chuee a serious response.

PKT juggling has potential use against Jiggs due to her light weight, as long as you make sure to loop properly to prevent the head from being hit.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Hah, how unbecoming of me.

But I swear, it's almost like you can aerial chaingrab Jiggs with some smooth shield and dash grabbing.

And then the Bthrow.

 

[Chuee]

Uhh Jiggz Dairs if you PKT not just every time you're below her.
Not to mention Jiggz has one of the top two air speeds in the game (can't remember if it's her or Yoshi who has the fastest), which means she can move back and force the PKT to come towards her in which case she can pound.
EDIT: Oh, and thats only if you grab jiggz lol.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Jiggs is easy to grab.
Plus doesn't PKT move faster than Jigglypuff?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi has the top air speed, and I don't believe PKT can keep up with him going horizontally. Jiggs might be similar. Of course, she's also trying to land.

 

[Chuee]

Jiggs is easy to grab.
Plus doesn't PKT move faster than Jigglypuff?

Jiggz has 5 jumps.

Yoshi has the top air speed, and I don't believe PKT can keep up with him going horizontally. Jiggs might be similar. Of course, she's also trying to land.

Or ya know she can go to the ledge. Then again if you're using PKT she shouldn't have problems landing.

 

[Delta-cod]

If you've forced Jiggs to the ledge, you're being successful in putting her into a generally bad position.

I like how you make statements that you don't explain and that are generally disagreeable.

 

[Chuee]

Then again if Ness is using PKT, Jiggz should have no problem with landing.

 

[Levitas]

when jiggs is on the edge, you lost your ability to continue using PKT to pressure her.

PKT can trap jiggs, but it's not all that great. In order to cover himself, he needs to have it aimed at where jiggs will fall to, curling down and back so if she jumps you can catch her before she gets to you. The problem with that is that if she instead jumps and retreats, she's got a free pass to the edge or the stage, depending where she is.

Uthrow sets up for a chance to try to PKT her, and nothing more as a general rule. PKT hit sets up for another try. If you're good at it and they're bad at avoiding it, it's useful. Otherwise, it's good.

 

[Delta-cod]

When Jiggs is on the ledge, she's also in a much more limited position. ;D

 

[Eagleye893]

Pound and Dair > PKT

Flawed argument is flawed. Nothing beats PKT tailwhip except reflections and absorptions... GG.

We predict it and we move around to get the hit no matter how we want to.



Also, against a lot of chars, dthrow to PKT has seemed fairly viable in that some people might airdodge or use a slow enough attack for it to hit themselves. Will this work in jiggz case, but instead of hit with PKT just go mindgame to PKT2?

 

[Uffe]

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. I know it's only three pages, but the other pages give pretty good info if you ask me. I had the honor of playing a Jigglypuff today, and I can say that I lost the first match not really expecting her to be a threat. I took her on the second and third match and won. But you know, when you're recovering, she's got a nice wall of pain. It's even good if she can land it more than once while you're on the stage, as that's exactly what had happened to me. I'd say she has some pretty decent kill moves and she's quite underrated.

 

[_clinton]

I'd still say that the only actual really good kill move she has is Fair, which overall it is pretty good, it is even pretty easy to save (It has almost as much power as our Bair but not as much priority, although it does come out like 2 frames faster).

 

[Delta-cod]

Jiggs' Fair is a very good move, though. With her air speed, it's actually decently threatening.

I still say a mainly grounded Ness is superior than trying to play all aerially in this match up. Learn how to DI the WoP efficiently so you don't eat a stock's worth of damage trying to recover.

 

[Uffe]

I agree with being grounded. Her aerials are fairly difficult for me to get around. That Pound especially. Talk about annoying.