if you are running past the edge that means that you are either too high to do it or you are hitting yourself at the wrong angle
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Ness vs. High Tiers discussion/Character Matchups
- Thread starter Wave⁂
- Start date
Ademisk
Smash Champion
His problem sounds like a too high, I have that problem all the time. Just start it lower, BF is my big problem with curve recovery. I just...can't...do it! Also, I hate Sheik. But I love it when I get a PK Flash off on a Sheik.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
That's a tough question. Basically, Marth requires mindgames and super defensive Ness, that's about all I'm willing to say, because anymore requires going into a lot of detail. If you can't sweetspot your recovery, just give up.
GofG
Smash Champion
I would never pick Ness against a Marth. It's really, stupid, unless you are Simna.
However, I would pick Ness against a fox. Fox gets owned repeatedly in the face by grab > dthrow > sh bair. It can be pulled off into really high percentages even if the fox DI's. Falco to a certain extent also gets owned.
However, I would pick Ness against a fox. Fox gets owned repeatedly in the face by grab > dthrow > sh bair. It can be pulled off into really high percentages even if the fox DI's. Falco to a certain extent also gets owned.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Falco? Owned? By Ness? I mean, sure, Ness has some neato uthrow and uair combos against him, but for the most part, Falco can really beat the hell out of a Ness. Still, I use Ness for EVERYONE, I don't have a secondary, so I'll fight Marths, Falcos, Foxes, Sheiks, Peaches, Jiggs, whoever and whenever, and I'm hoping if I keep it up, I'll find out how to fight them with Ness.
that dthrow stuff on fox is completely escapable for fox, also as Fox is the hardest character to grab and ness has the 2nd shortest grab in the game grab combos are not gonna cut it alone
oh btw i played Ken's marth for the first time at 0C3...guess who won^_^
EDIT: Ken did
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Ooh, Simna. Getting our hopes up like that, for shame. I guess you're slipping.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Yeah, it does, but Marth shouldn't be in the air anyway.
Edit: If you really want to try to work on your Marth, just have a friend use Marth and try to hit you with his F-smash over and over. Make sure the friend knows how to use mindgames well so it won't just be a spamming motion. This way you can get used to dodging it and taking advantage of the lag.
Edit: If you really want to try to work on your Marth, just have a friend use Marth and try to hit you with his F-smash over and over. Make sure the friend knows how to use mindgames well so it won't just be a spamming motion. This way you can get used to dodging it and taking advantage of the lag.
GofG
Smash Champion
Erm... no, falco gets owned by the dthrow > sh bair combo. Falco most definitley doesn't get owned in general
<-------- Not stupid
I didn't know fox could avoid it. I've played some decent foxes who can DI, and they get hit by it until about 120%.
thesage
Smash Hero
d-throw combos are easily di-able for most (if not every) single character.
GofG
Smash Champion
No, I'm sure it can't be. It would be like teching Jiggly's dthrow.
Thesage, I'm sure dthrow > fair can't be DI'd out of easily without opening up an easy bair.
Thesage, I'm sure dthrow > fair can't be DI'd out of easily without opening up an easy bair.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
If someone DIs Ness's dthrow, wouldn't it just be easier and better to do a fair or a uair? I mean there's really no point following a dthrow with a bair unless they didn't DI. Using a fair or uair has better comboability than a bair.
GildedPunch
Smash Ace
Dude kenny! Your video archive was stickied!
alright man! Nice Job!
alright man! Nice Job!
thesage
Smash Hero
D-throw sets up for tech-chasing against people who have good DI (and don't tech away f0r s0me odd reas0n). Against good people (like at tourneys) d-throw sets at best a weak hit with fair, that has low stun and knockback... Guess what happens? *insert any form of high tier rapage here* Lets get back on topic about the high tiers now huh?
Ness vs. Falco anyone?
Lasers don't bother me that much in this matchup. What screws me is that I'm always grabbed and tech chased and his shine and his dair and his speed. It's hard for me to combo him cause I still don't djc fast enough (I'm faster than before, but I'm still slow...). It's hard for me to edgeguard him cause after I hit him off he falls so fast I can't find him with my eyes and when I do he's already on his way to the stage. You can cg him with u-throw...
How about Ness vs. Fox?
U-smash kills early, up-throw to uair kills early... I'm not getting involved with this one... You can cg him too
Ness vs. Peach
Can't edgeguard her, I don't think you can combo her, at least you have a better air game then her, but on the ground she ***** you... *sigh* Playing Ness makes me emo.
Ness vs. Sheik
You can combo her with uair... Needles are pretty easy to avoid unless you're recovering... If she plays defensively then her f-tilt is like a personal shield. DI up and towards her when she tries to cg you.
Can we please talk about Falco first? I really want/need help...
Ness vs. Falco anyone?
Lasers don't bother me that much in this matchup. What screws me is that I'm always grabbed and tech chased and his shine and his dair and his speed. It's hard for me to combo him cause I still don't djc fast enough (I'm faster than before, but I'm still slow...). It's hard for me to edgeguard him cause after I hit him off he falls so fast I can't find him with my eyes and when I do he's already on his way to the stage. You can cg him with u-throw...
How about Ness vs. Fox?
U-smash kills early, up-throw to uair kills early... I'm not getting involved with this one... You can cg him too
Ness vs. Peach
Can't edgeguard her, I don't think you can combo her, at least you have a better air game then her, but on the ground she ***** you... *sigh* Playing Ness makes me emo.
Ness vs. Sheik
You can combo her with uair... Needles are pretty easy to avoid unless you're recovering... If she plays defensively then her f-tilt is like a personal shield. DI up and towards her when she tries to cg you.
Can we please talk about Falco first? I really want/need help...
GildedPunch
Smash Ace
Alright falco.
I've had this idea for a while but never said anything and I don't know how well it would work but here goes.
Falco's spamming of lasers is obviously crouch avoidable right? Well, when he's close enough to actually dair shffl you, WD back and try to hit him with super fast DJC'd fair. (dunno if you're fast enough sage but work on it.) If it works, he should be on the ground instead of standing up. Go in for a yo yo glitch if you can.
If you don't feel like you can get a yo yo glitch in right there, tech chase him as best as you can with dashing sparkles. (hehe, dashing sparkles....) When you got a yo yo glitch equip a thunder jacket (or wahtever you want. thunder jacket for a kill ) and then drop the thunder jacket with a little help from his spamming lasers. Dunno if this just LOOKS cool or if it's actually useful.
I've had this idea for a while but never said anything and I don't know how well it would work but here goes.
Falco's spamming of lasers is obviously crouch avoidable right? Well, when he's close enough to actually dair shffl you, WD back and try to hit him with super fast DJC'd fair. (dunno if you're fast enough sage but work on it.) If it works, he should be on the ground instead of standing up. Go in for a yo yo glitch if you can.
If you don't feel like you can get a yo yo glitch in right there, tech chase him as best as you can with dashing sparkles. (hehe, dashing sparkles....) When you got a yo yo glitch equip a thunder jacket (or wahtever you want. thunder jacket for a kill ) and then drop the thunder jacket with a little help from his spamming lasers. Dunno if this just LOOKS cool or if it's actually useful.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
I used to have insane major problems against Falco, but I'm getting better against him, not sure why. I don't know if speed is the answer, high speed is rarely the correct way to counter high speed. As for edgeguarding him, don't get a perfect position check on him, just get an idea. If you think he can go for a vertical forward-B recovery, try to get near to the edge and time a PK fire or bat. If you think he'll be forced to use his up-b, there's multiple options open to you. I personally have been getting fond of PK Flash in those situations(even if it doesn't hit him, it makes him a little more afraid to approach the stage), but the bat(if he isn't in a position to sweetspot) or tailwhipping is always an option. Past that, I've been trying to shieldgrab his dair more, and that doesn't seem to be working out too horrible.
Of course, this is still the opinion of someone who isn't that great against Falco yet.
Of course, this is still the opinion of someone who isn't that great against Falco yet.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
Thx. Took a while to get it too.
It's kind of hard to sheildgrab a pillaring Falco if he's doing it right but it is possible. Lasers can sometimes be really annoying but not if you can get around it. I usually do a full hop into a fair or a DjC dair (works for me) but I'm not sure if you can do this on a higher level because the Falco's I play against really aren't that good.
Anyways, I have a question. I've been thinking about ledgeguard options against a Marth because that's who I've been having the most problems with. I was just wondering if it's a good idea to ledgeguard a Marth with a PK Fire. What I mean is thatif your standing on the ledge and if Marth is too low to bat and not close enough to dtilt him without him hitting you, would a shorthopped Pk fire be a good alternative. It's been bugging me for weeks because I haven't had a chance to test it out.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
It's possible, but it's also possible for Marth to get onto the ledge past a PK Fire if he's quick enough. It all comes down to reflexes.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I'm just thinking if you do the same edgeguard over and over again then all of a sudden through out a PK fire, I would want to make sure it would work first.
thesage
Smash Hero
Shut Up. Ap US History, Ap Latin 5, Ap Biology, Pre-Calc (which is easy as poo), French, and English. And I'm a Junoir. STFUPPERCUTBBQSAUCE.
You want to bat them annoying, or edgehog. It depends...
You want to bat them annoying, or edgehog. It depends...
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
lol. AP Spanish and AP Music Theory.
I would d-tilt. The bat wouldn't reach a sweet-spotting space animal using over-B. To me, the question is what to do with a space animal edgeguarding you.
I would d-tilt. The bat wouldn't reach a sweet-spotting space animal using over-B. To me, the question is what to do with a space animal edgeguarding you.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
It would reach the sweetspotting spot if you tipper it.
The only way to counter an edgeguarding space animal is to sweetspot perfectly in an incredibly odd way. Like do a straight vertical down recovery.
The only way to counter an edgeguarding space animal is to sweetspot perfectly in an incredibly odd way. Like do a straight vertical down recovery.
thesage
Smash Hero
Reverse PKT fake suicides ftw.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Reverse PKT only works if they come out after you.
GildedPunch
Smash Ace
thesage
Smash Hero
^^^^Lolz
@annoying: Oh, In sophmore year I took Honors Physics (more like AP lolz...) Ap European History, French 3, Latin 4. I'm not counting algebra and geometry cuz it's easy as poo as well (I'm good in math).
Look at the bright side at least there's nothing left to do in Senoir year!!! Except Ap Chemistry... and french 5...
@annoying: Oh, In sophmore year I took Honors Physics (more like AP lolz...) Ap European History, French 3, Latin 4. I'm not counting algebra and geometry cuz it's easy as poo as well (I'm good in math).
Look at the bright side at least there's nothing left to do in Senoir year!!! Except Ap Chemistry... and french 5...
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Actually, I've never managed to pull one off, I was just messing around. But above the stage recovery still works sometimes. It's tough though, Ness's recovery does NOT have a lot of options, as we all know. Sweetspotting is the key.
thesage
Smash Hero
Actually if you get good enough it does, but there are only 4 people who were ever good enough to do it... (no not me...)
Didja know that nair outprioritizes fox's and falco's up b? But Ness still takes some damage though...
Didja know that nair outprioritizes fox's and falco's up b? But Ness still takes some damage though...
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Nair isn't a killing move until high %s though, so unless you're trying to get them in a better position to edgeguard them from, better to go with other methods.
GildedPunch
Smash Ace
good enough to do what?
I still can't figure out what you're talking about.
thesage
Smash Hero
I was talking about how Ness' recovery does have more options if you're good enough. You just need to know when these happen. This takes years of experience to learn however...
GildedPunch
Smash Ace
wow.
That kinda makes me think of this one thing......
Do any of you play someone with your ness alot against one person and now they've learned how to edgeguard your many attempts to get back on the edge with pkt2?
Have you ever tried to mindgame them and do a pkt2 with a different timing that takes longer,
so they f smash too late?
Ness shouldn't sweetspot, and it takes longer to get to the edge, but they miss their first F smash which gives you another chance.
Works against my bro.............Me choca a Captain Falcon.
That kinda makes me think of this one thing......
Do any of you play someone with your ness alot against one person and now they've learned how to edgeguard your many attempts to get back on the edge with pkt2?
Have you ever tried to mindgame them and do a pkt2 with a different timing that takes longer,
so they f smash too late?
Ness shouldn't sweetspot, and it takes longer to get to the edge, but they miss their first F smash which gives you another chance.
Works against my bro.............Me choca a Captain Falcon.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Ness NOT sweetspotting is like the worst thing you can do. There's so much lag, if they're even half intelligent, they'll just step back and smash you when you land. At least if you sweetspot you can mindgame the ledge recovery. You can't mindgame people when you're coming at the stage in a straight line.
dan smith
Smash Champion
I guess I'll right a lil' critique of the matchups.
Marth: Fighting Marth is like...my specialty. Check out my vid in the video archive. I lose the fight, but that's how I fight Marth.
(The dair trick always works...even on really good players. Don't really know why...they never seem to figure it out?)
Space animals: Whoever mentioned the Nair is right. The Nair is a great combo breaker against space animals. Especially Fox. Counters an upthrow to uair combo approx 50% of the time. Falco is more annoying to fight, despite lacking shine spikes, because of the spammable blaster. Can really disrupt your style. All around, Falcos not too bad of a fight though...if you get used to him. I'd still rather fight a Fox.
Both Sheik and Falcon can chain grab pretty well...and that sucks. Pretty painful fights. Most Captains don't seem to know what to do though, and in this situation, you can do alright. Sheiks are rarely easy. Spammable projectile and...ninja moves...
Peach is a beast but if you know what you're doing you can at least work around the brutal downsmash enough to contend. Get good at grabbin turnips and sprinkle in some more power moves to help get KOs on the princess who always comes back. Fake out bats and lots of bairs.
Jiggz and Samus are two of my other least favorite matchups. For obvious reasons. Ness has trouble KOing and both of these ladies have staying power. Samus has missles and Jiggz can tear apart your recovery ability. Not too much to do here. Space Jiggz with sparkles and try to land Bairs. Avoid Samus' missles and try to stay close with aerial combos.
My ranking of worst matchups:
1. Sheik
2. Peach
3. Jiggz
4. Samus
5. Falco
I hate spammable projectiles.
Marth: Fighting Marth is like...my specialty. Check out my vid in the video archive. I lose the fight, but that's how I fight Marth.
(The dair trick always works...even on really good players. Don't really know why...they never seem to figure it out?)
Space animals: Whoever mentioned the Nair is right. The Nair is a great combo breaker against space animals. Especially Fox. Counters an upthrow to uair combo approx 50% of the time. Falco is more annoying to fight, despite lacking shine spikes, because of the spammable blaster. Can really disrupt your style. All around, Falcos not too bad of a fight though...if you get used to him. I'd still rather fight a Fox.
Both Sheik and Falcon can chain grab pretty well...and that sucks. Pretty painful fights. Most Captains don't seem to know what to do though, and in this situation, you can do alright. Sheiks are rarely easy. Spammable projectile and...ninja moves...
Peach is a beast but if you know what you're doing you can at least work around the brutal downsmash enough to contend. Get good at grabbin turnips and sprinkle in some more power moves to help get KOs on the princess who always comes back. Fake out bats and lots of bairs.
Jiggz and Samus are two of my other least favorite matchups. For obvious reasons. Ness has trouble KOing and both of these ladies have staying power. Samus has missles and Jiggz can tear apart your recovery ability. Not too much to do here. Space Jiggz with sparkles and try to land Bairs. Avoid Samus' missles and try to stay close with aerial combos.
My ranking of worst matchups:
1. Sheik
2. Peach
3. Jiggz
4. Samus
5. Falco
I hate spammable projectiles.