Ness vs. High Tiers discussion/Character Matchups

[Ademisk]

sage was talking about nairs against Foxes recovery. Everyone agrees that they're badass combo breakers.

Also, put Falco right after Sheik, cut out Jiggz, and put Marth at the top, and you've got my list.

 

[dan smith]

Nair edgeguard? Yeah...not so much. Bat for the win. Actually, lots of good options. Dtilt is funny if not always effective. Hang a yoyo even. But more likely, PK fire to bat, bat, or dair.

 

[Ademisk]

Dtilt is a mindgame edeguard, people never expect it, kinda like realizing you don't have a second jump and falling to your doom. Plus it's a good way to get a few extra %s on an enemy. For Fox it's gotta be the bat or tailwhip. I despise the dair personally...I always end up falling too far and having to recover with my PK Thunder...which isn't a good thing.


Though, I find the nair edgeguard to work well against Captain Falcon or Ganondorf at higher %s. It doesn't kill them as well as a bat, but it can get them into a position to be batted.

 

[Levitas]

Does Ness have any auto-combos on high tiers (other than obvious crap like DJC uair stuff). I ask because comboing at my best, Ness can chain like 3 hits before it's escapable by a tech or DI.

I'd also like to bring up the topic of stages. We all know that Corneria is amazing, but are there better stages when considering if the other player can infinite combo against a wall. Often people dismiss that stuff, but look at scotu's combo video, and you will see a fox that lives in the same room as me that can potentially pin me to a wall indefinately.

Also: general strategies. Do you find it to be advantageous to be campy, chase for pressure's sake, medium range (just out of PK fire range) or super close range? Does Ness like to stay close to the ground, or hang out at full jump height?

 

[GildedPunch]

Does Ness have any auto-combos on high tiers (other than obvious crap like DJC uair stuff). I ask because comboing at my best, Ness can chain like 3 hits before it's escapable by a tech or DI.

One thing that works fairly well against CF, are spammed really fast djc'd bairs.
DJC a bair ( this only works if they shield.) and then (since they shielded it.) run forward JUST a little bit so he isn't in range to grab you, then repeat. works really well and gets quite annoying for the Falcon player.
MAKE SURE YOU L-CANCEL!!
No L-Cancel = A grab combo by Captain Falcon.

Ness NOT sweetspotting is like the worst thing you can do. There's so much lag, if they're even half intelligent, they'll just step back and smash you when you land. At least if you sweetspot you can mindgame the ledge recovery. You can't mindgame people when you're coming at the stage in a straight line.

I meant when you grab the edge still but NOT sweetspotting it.
Like when you kind of ride the edge upwards just a little?

 

[Ademisk]

No, yeah, that's horrible. It happens most often on Final Destination, you just have to realize which angles you can recover from, and which you can't. (I believe that happens only on recovery from below the stage, best way to fix it is to recover on the stage itself. Or in the case of other stages, praying to god that you're not at a bad angle.)

 

[technomancer]

Ness's worst matchups are floaties because ness can't combo them unless have specifically bad DI, and has trouble edgeguarding their good recoveries, which basically means he has to land a B-air. Also Ness has major trouble with grabs against floaties that DI. A quick list of Ness's worst is:

Sheik
Peach
Marth
Jiggly
Fox
Falco
Luigi
CF

Shiek is higher, but if you're skilled in the matchup, would move below the floaties. Everyone else can be combo'd into stuff pretty well with faris, weak Nairs and dash attacks and grabs and such. This thread needs more debate.

 

[Winston]

Combos aren't everything though, right? With most floaties you can play the trading hits game, but falco's gonna combo the crap outta you. And you're not gonna combo him unless you're much better than him.

 

[thesage]

Luigi definetely isn't hard for Ness. It's even IMO. The only problem I have with him is his WD to d-smash. It's pretty easy to use pkt juggle rapage on him.

Ness can combo shiek, but it's just not with his usual stuff kinda... It's weird...

 

[GildedPunch]

No, yeah, that's horrible. It happens most often on Final Destination, you just have to realize which angles you can recover from, and which you can't. (I believe that happens only on recovery from below the stage, best way to fix it is to recover on the stage itself. Or in the case of other stages, praying to god that you're not at a bad angle.)

*sigh*
I'll record what i'm talking about sometime....

 

[Ademisk]

No, I know what you're talking about. And it's bad, you're right. It pops you up, and gives every character and his mother the chance to kill you with an even moderately well time smash.

 

[thesage]

It's only helpful when they're trying to edgehog you. Oh and Ness actually does have the best grab the edge range in the game. The only person close to him is Sheik after she teleports.

 

[Ademisk]

Really? The best? I knew it was big, but the best? Sweet.

 

[Wave⁂]

On my occasional read-slash-skim-through-all-the-char-guides-and-stuff days, I find the Bowser, Mewtwo, Zelda guides often say "Your opponent probably doesn't know how to fight a ____, so do ________ and use _______ to your advantage."

Not saying anything, just commenting....

EDIT: thesage, i noticed that you're 17... while I'm 15... just commenting, again...

 

[Ademisk]

I'm 19. Just commenting.

 

[Levitas]

I'm 19. Just commenting. No, really. In any event, I'm about to upload some vids of myself, if you guys would be willing to give me some advice on what to improve on, and tactics to be used.

 

[GildedPunch]

JUST COMMENTING!!!
I'm 16 in 2 months.

 

[Ademisk]

That's what Ness boards are for, Jman. That and horse porn. Don't tell anyone.

 

[tehSANDMAN]

?!! When did the Ness boards shift to bestiality? Last I checked it was just Ness on Ness action.

 

[Ademisk]

I think it was Dan Smith who opened the floodgates of sin on us all.

 

[Levitas]

sandman, I love your sig. that is all

 

[Wave⁂]

OK, guys, this is my thread, so please don't spam with those kind of messages. If it belongs in pm's *cough* jman *cough* do so.

 

[max32090]

ness ***** falco n fox

 

[tehSANDMAN]

Lol sorry annoying. I think im the only Ness player who thinks that he does decently against Peach. Fair out prioritizes most of her stuff. Lol pushing turnips back with fair is fun. If you get under her (heh) theres not a lot she can do about uairs and pkt's from hell. Oh, and falcos are tough as hell despite uair combos.

 

[Levitas]

Does the uair out-prioritize the steps? If not, she should be steps to nairing to end the juggle. But yeah, peach isn't nearly as tough as falco.

How does brinstar stand as a counterpick to space animals? It's definately a weak stage for them, and if you damage the zebites in the center, you can yyg off of them. In terms of recovery, the acid tends to help ness much more than the animals, and acid to bair works wonders against them. Any thoughts?

 

[tehSANDMAN]

Pretty sure uair kills steps. Heh, I've never really tried Brinstar as a counter pick just because I hate it so much. Lava helps, yea, but you can't sweetspot which WILL screw you over, regardless of other options. That is for another topic tho

 

[GildedPunch]

You can counter with brinstar??

 

[kenny10]

Yeah. I thought Brinstar was banned or something? But anyways, Peach can outprioritize Ness almost every single time (especially her fair and dsmash) and who can forget about float-cancelling. Ness can almost never shield-grab a good Peach. To me, Falco is an easier match-up than Peach once you can get around his lasers.

 

[max32090]

ness cant shield grab anyone

 

[kenny10]

That's not really true but oh well.

 

[Levitas]

More like even if the opportunity arises, why are you shielding with an enemy (presumably in lag of some kind) very close to you AND in front of you. And not being able to shield grab a good peach isn't a defecit, as that is the case with most characters. Peach's off stage game is so much better than Ness's that it isn't funny, but platforms seem to work in Ness's favor. I've seen some well-placed bairs wreck peach (even on dreamland).

Edit: and yes, you can counterpick brinstar

 

[Ademisk]

Peach is only tough because it's hellish hard to edgeguard her, and, well....I don't generally survive if I try to PK Thunder onto the ledge with a Peach nearby...>_>


Also, I have a bad shieldspamming habit now. First rolling, now this...when will it end...

 

[kenny10]

Against a Peach, it might be so much easier if you don't get knocked off the stage in the first place (easier said than done).

 

[dan smith]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread anymore than I have to, but there is one important thing that still needs to be cleared up.

Animorph sex is not beastiality. Because the Animorphs are actually people who transform into animals, the reality is that they are all human beings.

Seriously though, yeah, I'm going to retroactively demote Peach on my list. I'd much rather fight your average Peach than your average Jiggz or Samus. The problem is the above average Peaches...but they are definitely in the minority.

Also, Brinstar is legit, but Peaches kind of like it. They break the stage in half, hover above the acid, and chuck turnips. Rainbow Cruise is my favorite pick for the matchup. It's good to make the Peach to keep moving...Ness is better at fighting on the move...just keep the Fairs and Bairs flowing. (It's also just one of my favorite Ness levels)

...and I'm 19 years old! Whoo!! (I didn't understand why people were posting their ages)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

werent u 19 when i asked u your age like 3 years ago?

 

[Ademisk]

my #1 reason for blindly hating Peaches is that they destroy my precious Corneria guns. And I don't know why we started posting out ages either.

 

[Angrylobster]

Ness' hardest matches go in this order (imo of course)

Marth
Falco
Sheik
Fox

These are the main matches that give me a hard time atleast

 

[Ademisk]

....yeah, I'm cool with that list.

 

[thesage]

*insert tier list here take Ness out*

That's my order...

 

[Ademisk]

Nice order.