Ness vs. D3: (-3) Matchup Discussion

[Eagleye893]

Here we have D3. He's a *****. We all hate how he can out-range us and grab us to the point where we cry. Here are some general ideas of advantages/disadvantages for this MU:

+++POS+++
--PK Fire pillar can be set up on waddle-dee/doos. Also, slightly easier to shield-poke him due to how fat he is.
--due to D3 having relatively slow attacks, we can poke in and go ahead with move strings connecting relatively well.
--Offstage isn't nearly as bad as against some characters.
--Heal from waddle-doo's. You can assure this by either throwing him or just being mean with PK Fire while not hitting the lil' guy who's trying to help you out.
--Kill moves are relatively easy to see coming. Use this to your advantage by staying out of range of the two quick moves that can kill (BAir and UTilt) while making approaches.
--D3 is floatier when not FF'ing, so UAir is ballin'

----NEG----
--The chaingrab.
--He has a BAir... and a UTilt... And every move other than that is ranged insanely.
--His DTilt can put you into a place where you have no hope to survive.
--OH LOOK AT HOW MUCH DAMAGE I JUST ACCUMULATED FROM ONE OR TWO HITS! AND I DIE QUICKER TOO! xD
--BThrow for you will kill so late...
--BAir for you will be both relatively difficult to land due to D3's BAir having more speed and range (I believe), and even if you do land it it won't kill reliably. DOES DO DAMAGE THOUGH! xD
--You have nearly no way to approach him when he's on the ground in a good spot, like under BF's platforms or under SV's moving platform.
--His waddle-dee/doos and gordos can camp further out than you.


Here's a quick idea of what I can squeeze out of the matchup. I don't really prefer to play against D3s, but they're better than both Marth and Falco.

Okay, so basically you can't get in too close or else you get grabbed or utilted or BAir'd. You can't stay out too far or else you just... do nothing... So you will need to put yourself in a mid-ranged location a majority of the game in order to avoid the quick close-range attacks that D3 has while poking in to sieze opportunities. The only problem with doing that is even if you do try to poke in, he can shield grab most of your options and be perfectly fine.

The ideal positioning is in front of him just outside of standing grab range and DTilt range (maybe slightly further). If I could get an image, I would show it, but I can't. FTilt is slow enough to shield on reaction, but if you're landing around him, take that into account. His forward attacks besides FTilt and DTilt are all relatively slow, meaning his quickest movement is to turnaround and bair you.

Now that's when he's on the ground. When he's in the air, same situation... he can turn around in the air though, so you have to be careful. I say keep just slightly diagonally below him in front. This allows for rising UAirs or FAirs on your end, since both are relatively long ranged.


Now in terms of overall stuff, your main aims are to keep him from being able to UTilt or Grab you. In other words, Pop him up and gain control of the ground or just be on a different platform/level than him. Since he's got plenty of range, you need to either counter that with your more ranged things, such as Yoyos, FAir, UAir, PK Fire (only if you are certain to hit), or you can just say "I DON'T CARE!" and just hope to rush in with something quick and do SOME damage. NAirs are nice if you land them the right way, because you can do more stuff more quickly. Land a BAir if you can. You need to rack damage on this guy as much as possible, and seeing as BAir shouldn't kill too quickly and UAir and BThrow will be your main ways of killing here.

DThrow is slightly more reliable than in other matchups because D3 doesn't move as far away and doesn't have quick forward options. Don't rely on it though.

Uthrow is not as nice as it may seem. D3 Fast-falling onto you is scary.

And IDK What else I had to say...




There aren't many vids of Ness v. D3, but I could've sworn that there was 1 of Shaky v Seibrik... It sorta disappeared though.

Video Examples:

http://youtu.be/xYAdSSezSiY
http://youtu.be/YUgLlDXlTyk
http://youtu.be/sXF3iOrpnuo
http://www.twitch.tv/teamcustomcombo/b/311260347 --- (at 2:23:45)

As you can tell, these are relatively old. If anyone has some footage, it'll help.

 

[baconator25]

Well, I can't say I'm a top-level player or that I've played any top-level Dedede's, but I do play the match up nearly every day so I guess I can share my experiences with it.

Approaching Dedede can be pretty scary mostly due to his enormous grab range. However, we're pretty much forced to approach in this match up since Dedede out camps us as well. I agree that mid range is probably the best position for us to be in.

This match up is also extremely frustrating in how easily damage is racked up on both sides. I've had numerous occasions where I think I finally have some momentum going and a decent percentage lead and the next thing I know, I'm chaingrabbed off the stage and at a percent disadvantage.

If the Dedede likes to throw out waddle dee's from long range, dtilt works very well for refreshing our moves. If he's throwing them from far enough away, Gordo can be batted on reaction (even though I'm not sure how many high level Dedede's would do a waddle dee toss from 3/4's screen) Nair can also go through gordo's if you're in a situation where you're just about to land and air-dodging won't last long enough. And waddle Doo's are cool because they're all like Hey, let me heal you.

From my experiences, if you can read that a Dedede is going to land with Inhale, it can be punished by PKT2. This also applies to Super Dedede Jump, but again, I'm not quite sure if this still applies at higher level play.

I do have some footage of myself playing against my friend's Dedede in tournament, but I'm not sure how much can be taken from it since there's a lotttttttttt of mistakes on both sides and we were both extremely nervous and it definitely shows. But here it is anyway http://www.twitch.tv/teamcustomcombo/b/311260347

From 2:23:45 to 2:39:20

Also, Dedede's bair is stupid.

 

[Lukingordex]

D3...

Man this match sux for Ness...

 

[Yink]

Disregard me. It's -3, but you can make it a -2 if you work around him. By that I mean do what Eagle said and also watch offstage work. After about 2 jumps he needs to really start thinking about how to recover (up B is coming, do something about it).

 

[TOPIX]

Before I start, I've only been using Ness for about 2 months competitively, and there-after only have used him in two tournaments so far, so I am no high-level player. So before I get criticized, take this into account please and thank you...

To be honest, this matchup is bad to the extent you should have a pocket-character for it. His OoS (Out of Shield) game works really effectively on us in this matchup. Not to mention DDD also has a grab release on us (although he could use chain grab as an alternative). I could be mistaken, but grab release > dtilt works if I'm not mistaken. Which at high percents can produce some kills. Which is bad since essentially he can kill us relatively way earlier than we can kill him (I believe the earliest we can kill him with Bthrow is in about the 150 - 160 range if I'm not mistaken).

What I like to personally do in this matchup is bait approaches with Bair and punish any approaches with PK Fire. Approaching with Nair obviously gets punished fairly easily in this matchup, so I poke his shield with Fair and then react accordingly there after. But I just feel like when he shields, your options are very limited as far as you can do without getting punished and gaining a lot of percent from a CG or a grab release or something. I say whiffing around the stage and punishing where ever there are openings are the best option.

 

[Lukingordex]

Before I start, I've only been using Ness for about 2 months competitively, and there-after only have used him in two tournaments so far, so I am high-level player. So before I get criticized, take this into account please and thank you...

To be honest, this matchup is bad to the extent you should have a pocket-character for it. His OoS (Out of Shield) game works really effectively on us in this matchup. Not to mention DDD also has a grab release on us (although he could use chain grab as an alternative). I could be mistaken, but grab release > dtilt works if I'm not mistaken. Which at high percents can produce some kills. Which is bad since essentially he can kill us relatively way earlier than we can kill him (I believe the earliest we can kill him with Bthrow is in about the 150 - 160 range if I'm not mistaken).

What I like to personally do in this matchup is bait approaches with Bair and punish any approaches with PK Fire. Approaching with Nair obviously gets punished fairly easily in this matchup, so I poke his shield with Fair and then react accordingly there after. But I just feel like when he shields, your options are very limited as far as you can do without getting punished and gaining a lot of percent from a CG or a grab release or something. I say whiffing around the stage and punishing where ever there are openings are the best option.

Ness´ PK fire have some lag and if you use it every time when Dedede approachs,he will read that and punish you. Also is not a bad idea if you try giving a Pk fire in the air,but it can be punished if you use a lot of times.

Also don´t forgot: When a PK fire hits D3,its your chance to punish him with all your atributes.

 

[TOPIX]

Ness´ PK fire have some lag and if you use it every time when Dedede approachs,he will read that and punish you. Also is not a bad idea if you try giving a Pk fire in the air,but it can be punished if you use a lot of times.

Also don´t forgot: When a PK fire hits D3,its your chance to punish him with all your atributes.

Maybe I should've been more clear. I bait DDD to shield with retreating Bairs and then punish any approach OoS (When he begins his dash) with a PK Fire. Although grounded PK Fires aren't favorable in the matchup, I don't think it's a bad strat.

 

[Lukingordex]

Maybe I should've been more clear. I bait DDD to shield with retreating Bairs and then punish any approach OoS (When he begins his dash) with a PK Fire. Although grounded PK Fires aren't favorable in the matchup, I don't think it's a bad strat.

Not that all bad strategy,but if the D3 player read this,you will get in a serious trouble.
(a D3´s shield grab already can kill this strategy)

Try using Lucas on this MU,is not that bad than Ness.

 

[Eagleye893]

Approaching Dedede can be pretty scary mostly due to his enormous grab range. However, we're pretty much forced to approach in this match up since Dedede out camps us as well. I agree that mid range is probably the best position for us to be in.

If the Dedede likes to throw out waddle dee's from long range, dtilt works very well for refreshing our moves. If he's throwing them from far enough away, Gordo can be batted on reaction (even though I'm not sure how many high level Dedede's would do a waddle dee toss from 3/4's screen) Nair can also go through gordo's if you're in a situation where you're just about to land and air-dodging won't last long enough. And waddle Doo's are cool because they're all like Hey, let me heal you.

From my experiences, if you can read that a Dedede is going to land with Inhale, it can be punished by PKT2. This also applies to Super Dedede Jump, but again, I'm not quite sure if this still applies at higher level play.

...

Also, Dedede's bair is stupid.

His OoS (Out of Shield) game works really effectively on us in this matchup. Not to mention DDD also has a grab release on us (although he could use chain grab as an alternative). I could be mistaken, but grab release > dtilt works if I'm not mistaken. Which at high percents can produce some kills. Which is bad since essentially he can kill us relatively way earlier than we can kill him (I believe the earliest we can kill him with Bthrow is in about the 150 - 160 range if I'm not mistaken).

What I like to personally do in this matchup is bait approaches with Bair and punish any approaches with PK Fire. Approaching with Nair obviously gets punished fairly easily in this matchup, so I poke his shield with Fair and then react accordingly there after. But I just feel like when he shields, your options are very limited as far as you can do without getting punished and gaining a lot of percent from a CG or a grab release or something.

Ness´ PK fire have some lag and if you use it every time when Dedede approachs,he will read that and punish you. Also is not a bad idea if you try giving a Pk fire in the air,but it can be punished if you use a lot of times.

Also don´t forgot: When a PK fire hits D3,its your chance to punish him with all your atributes.

Good things to note are bolded.

in terms of "out-camps us," also out-spaces us.

 

[Doc King]

Matchup is hard for Ness. Although the PK Fire really helps out because it gives Ness the advantage with the minions D3 camps with. The PK Fire is probably the only main strength Ness has on D3. D3 can outspace, chaingrab, edge guarding, killing advantage, and even a grab release infinite where you dash dance forward and back from your opponent into a pivot grab. Dedede also has the grab release to down tilt and dash grab release stand regrabs.

I would agree -3 for Ness.

 

[bubbaking]

Hey, I'm a Dedede main and my friend, baconator, asked me to give my opinion on this MU so I'm here to say a word or two on the issue. Now, I'm no top-level D3 player, but I'd like to think I know what I'm doing when I play, so take what you will from my upcoming statements.

D3 literally only needs three moves to win this MU, tbh: dthrow, bair, and dtilt. You already know that our grabs mean big damage for you on top of you being sent offstage, so I'm not gonna talk about that. However, I am gonna mention now that D3's pummel release guarantees him a dtilt on Ness. D3's pummel isn't really that fast, so it's somewhat hard for him to actually get a pummel release when he wants, but if he gets it and you're still on-stage, you can count on getting hit by dtilt. This is a major problem since our dtilt is a semi-KO move which will put you in a very bad position, assuming you're not KO'd.

If you don't have to go close to DDD, then don't do it. Not only do you have to worry about grabs and bairs, but our swallow is a decent mixup as well when we're harassing your shield. Our dtilt randomly trips too. Your camping is superior to ours with with PK fire and thunder, but you have to ensure your safety when you commit to it. It's easy to figure out that you can use our Waddles against us by setting up PK fire 'walls' to protect yourselves and exert some form of stage control.

Do NOT become too aggressive when you're trying to follow up with your hits on D3. We outrange you in nearly every direction, whether it be on the air or in the ground. If we're above you, our dair will hit through your uair. If we're below you, our uair will hit through your dair. Both of these moves are semi-KO moves. Dair in particular can combo into more things. From experience, I can tell you that if you hit me up into the air and try to chase me, I will simply dair right through you to the ground so I can resume my ground game.

You must be very careful when recovering. I will usually try to bair and utilt you all day until you die. You already know to NOT upB too close to the ledge. If it's close enough, I will let go for the quick bair offstage and I really don't mind getting hit by PK thunder 2 to gimp your recovery due to my weight. If you try to muscle in above me, you might end up getting utilted (especially if I PS your aerial). Definitely make sure you watch how you use your DJ offstage. I try to bair Ness when he's offstage, but sometimes, I try to catch his DJ with my ftilt, dtilt, or grab so that he's in a really bad position.

I don't know if it's just me, but for some reason I have trouble dealing with Ness's fair. I don't know if it's transcendent or not, but I can never really get my bair to trade properly with it. As for D3 camping, it's not really that effective, but I like to let my Waddle Doos walk around to try to create some setups with them, especially against Ness. If you try to PSI Magnet them, you will get grabbed or maybe even fsmashed (which kills you at 40% most of the time). Even if you try to end the Magnet early, you'll end up getting hit by the rest of the Doo's lightning.

Umm, stages....I'm not sure where you would want to use your bans, but you probably want to strike Siege, FD, and PS1. In that case, you'd probably end up going to SV, cuz I want my maximized ground game and CG space. More on stages in a future post.

D3 is one of the flowchartiest chars in the game, but it's a flowchart that works effectively. However, if you remember how the flowchart works, you can attempt to fight it or work around it. I'd definitely say this is a -3 for Ness.

 

[Lukingordex]

Hey, I'm a Dedede main and my friend, baconator, asked me to give my opinion on this MU so I'm here to say a word or two on the issue. Now, I'm no top-level D3 player, but I'd like to think I know what I'm doing when I play, so take what you will from my upcoming statements.

D3 literally only needs three moves to win this MU, tbh: dthrow, bair, and dtilt. You already know that our grabs mean big damage for you on top of you being sent offstage, so I'm not gonna talk about that. However, I am gonna mention now that D3's pummel release guarantees him a dtilt on Ness. D3's pummel isn't really that fast, so it's somewhat hard for him to actually get a pummel release when he wants, but if he gets it and you're still on-stage, you can count on getting hit by dtilt. This is a major problem since our dtilt is a semi-KO move which will put you in a very bad position, assuming you're not KO'd.

If you don't have to go close to DDD, then don't do it. Not only do you have to worry about grabs and bairs, but our swallow is a decent mixup as well when we're harassing your shield. Our dtilt randomly trips too. Your camping is superior to ours with with PK fire and thunder, but you have to ensure your safety when you commit to it. It's easy to figure out that you can use our Waddles against us by setting up PK fire 'walls' to protect yourselves and exert some form of stage control.

Do NOT become too aggressive when you're trying to follow up with your hits on D3. We outrange you in nearly every direction, whether it be on the air or in the ground. If we're above you, our dair will hit through your uair. If we're below you, our uair will hit through your dair. Both of these moves are semi-KO moves. Dair in particular can combo into more things. From experience, I can tell you that if you hit me up into the air and try to chase me, I will simply dair right through you to the ground so I can resume my ground game.

You must be very careful when recovering. I will usually try to bair and utilt you all day until you die. You already know to NOT upB too close to the ledge. If it's close enough, I will let go for the quick bair offstage and I really don't mind getting hit by PK thunder 2 to gimp your recovery due to my weight. If you try to muscle in above me, you might end up getting utilted (especially if I PS your aerial). Definitely make sure you watch how you use your DJ offstage. I try to bair Ness when he's offstage, but sometimes, I try to catch his DJ with my ftilt, dtilt, or grab so that he's in a really bad position.

I don't know if it's just me, but for some reason I have trouble dealing with Ness's fair. I don't know if it's transcendent or not, but I can never really get my bair to trade properly with it. As for D3 camping, it's not really that effective, but I like to let my Waddle Doos walk around to try to create some setups with them, especially against Ness. If you try to PSI Magnet them, you will get grabbed or maybe even fsmashed (which kills you at 40% most of the time). Even if you try to end the Magnet early, you'll end up getting hit by the rest of the Doo's lightning.

Umm, stages....I'm not sure where you would want to use your bans, but you probably want to strike Siege, FD, and PS1. In that case, you'd probably end up going to SV, cuz I want my maximized ground game and CG space. More on stages in a future post.

D3 is one of the flowchartiest chars in the game, but it's a flowchart that works effectively. However, if you remember how the flowchart works, you can attempt to fight it or work around it. I'd definitely say this is a -3 for Ness.

You said everything.

I only disagree with one thing: Siege is not good to faces D3 with Ness.

 

[Dexident]

Just a thought - Can we absorb his up-b landing stars? GW can bucket them so I assume Ness can also absorb them?

 

[baconator25]

Ness can absorb them, but it's not very practical. He's a lot better off punishing the up-B with an uair or PKT2 if you read it than trying to absorb the stars for a small amount of HP. The spacing is also pretty weird on it.

Also, about absorbing the waddle doo's, you obviously don't want to pull out Magnet when Dedede is standing RIGHT THERE waiting for it. If you can throw Dedede far enough away or something, you should have adequate time to heal.

 

[Coney]

I'm a former DDD main that recently switched to main Ness.

This matchup sucks!

 

[Jamwa]

Is Pk Jump, wave-bounced Pk Jump or lag cancelled Pk Fire being considered? I know its hard to pull off in a match, but it might be something you need to learn for this match-up

 

[TOPIX]

You said everything.

I only disagree with one thing: Siege is not good to faces D3 with Ness.

Lol, are you serious, it's relatively easy for DDD to grab Ness, this is one of the number 1 stages I would want to avoid on him.

Aside from that, anyone have any good counterpicks/stages that would work effectively against DDD, which I think is one aspect being left OPEN for discussion that hasn't been talked about yet. Since I'm relatively new to Ness, I don't really know many of the stages that Ness is strong on. I know from past experience he doesn't do too bad on most neutrals like Smashville & Battlefield, and then stages like Lylatt & Yoshi Island are far from desireable but I don't know really any good CPs for him, especially for this matchup. Anyone have any opinions or input on this.

 

[Jamwa]

why is YI bad? u can use shyguys for pillars and the recovery isnt bad at all, u just have to get use to it. if u stay at the edges you can pk fire easily and the platforms kinda work with d-throw or hitting them off into the jab lock animation if ur good enough to pull it off, which i am not for i always forget

lylat works very well against D3 since he cant chaingrab also

 

[Jiffyboob]

I don't post here often and when I do it's usually ignored but.... D3 excels at being under large platforms like the one on YI and Halberd. It's almost impossible to approach and he can just camp there safely.

 

[Lukingordex]

why is YI bad? u can use shyguys for pillars and the recovery isnt bad at all, u just have to get use to it. if u stay at the edges you can pk fire easily and the platforms kinda work with d-throw or hitting them off into the jab lock animation if ur good enough to pull it off, which i am not for i always forget

lylat works very well against D3 since he cant chaingrab also

YI is bad for Ness in a lot of MUs.

 

[bubbaking]

Siege - I'm pretty sure Siege is really, really bad for Ness in this MU. Ok, so you already know that on the second form of the stage and during each transition, I can simply CG you to death on the walk-offs. Now consider this: during the transitions, when there isn't much time left before the transition ends, I will continue to CG you, knowing I won't make it to the blastzone in time. Why? Because you will probably end up offstage when the next form (assuming it's not the statue form) appears, meaning all I have to do now is utilize my multiple aerial jumps and gimp you. Strike this stage, and consider banning it.

FD - Not really much to say here. It's a big, flat no-man's land. CG paradise. Everytime you're in the air, I know you have to land somewhere, so I can easily try to punish you with a grab or something. I feel like Ness should probably camp on or near the ledge if they're forced to play here. If you happen to get grabbed, the damage output isn't nearly as severe. Still, you should probably strike this stage for the first game. Probably not ban-worthy, though.

PS1 - Lot of flat space for CG's. Infinites against the tree and mountain. Because of the overhang at both ledges, D3 can kinda shark here, so be wary if you're gonna be standing somewhat close to the ledge. This is one of my CP's of choice. If you get grabbed at any point, it equals either big damage to you, you offstage, you infinited to death, or all three. Strike this stage, along with the previous two mentioned, and you might even wanna consider banning it as well.

BF - I know aerial-based chars love this stage, so Ness shouldn't be much of an exception. Not much room for you to get CG'd on and the platforms help you stay out of grab range. They also offer a good avenue of escape when you're looking to recover or get off the ledge. Just be wary of D3's utilt, usmash, bair, fair, nair, rising dair, and uair (dang, that's almost everything isn't it) if you're gonna be hangin' out on them. Also, Ness can hit a Dedede standing under a platform with dair. If it hits him up onto the platform you're standing on, you get a free jab-lock. If you make sure to follow D3 when he falls off the platform during the jab-lock, you get to continue it to the edge of the stage. Oh, both Ness and D3 are chars that must hit the ground if they're knocked into their tumble animation from shielding on the platforms. You can set up jab-locks on D3 in this way. I will strike this stage, but I don't think D3 minds it so much as to ban it.

Lylat - The tilts on this stage can only help. If they're tilted downwards in the direction that I'm CGing you, then you can expect to be released at some point soon. If D3 tries to force the CG, then you can punish him. This goes for any downwards slope (like the slope in the first form of Siege and the stage tilts in the third form of Siege). D3 can semi-shark, so be wary of that. Just like on BF, be very careful about being on platforms when D3 is nearby. The stage-tilts also shorten D3's waddle throws if the stage is tilted upwards, which is both a blessing and a curse. You don't have to worry as much about getting hit by the direct throw, but it also means that my Waddle is now more effective at helping me control the stage. Of course, you can always use this against me with PK fire. Personally, I hate this stage cuz its tilts totally screw me up in more ways than one, so I end up striking it AND banning it. I don't think D3 minds it too much though, so your final choice may just end up being between this and SV.

Yoshi's - D3 actually does not mind this stage either. Sure, he'd prefer a little more room to CG you guys, and those slopes can help and/or hinder at times, but in the end, there isn't really anything 'bad' for us here. That platform in the middle is actually quite useful for us. CG's aside (cuz we get 'em up there), you don't really wanna use that platform too much as an avenue of escape. At the low points of the tilts and while the platform is horizontally flat, you can get hit by utilt or usmash. Definitely something that you'll want to keep in mind. Basically, it's really hard to approach a Dedede that's standing under a platform, and that loooong platform on Yoshi's suits our purposes just fine. This isn't a bad stage for you guys in this MU, but it's definitely not that bad of a stage for us either. You might also end up with this in your last pick for stage striking.

SV - Ahhh, good ol' Smashville. We all love SV, right, cuz this will probably be one of the two stages you're left with at the end of striking. Use the platform...WISELY! If you don't, this stage becomes almost no different from FD; in fact, it becomes better for D3 than FD, cuz we can just use the platform to aid our own approach. When the platform is at the edge of the stage, you can PK fire/thunder safely a lot of the time, and I'm left wondering how I'm gonna get out there and hit you for your troubles. Once the platform starts coming back, however, it's time to abandon ship, cuz I'm gonna have a fun time utilting/usmashing/aerial'ing you off of that thing. Make sure to utiltize it as mixup when you're recovering too. Of course, you know to NOT GET GRABBED when I'm facing the direction that the platform is moving; I'll have a temporary infinite on you that ends with you being usmashed (if you're not hanging off the platform) or fthrown near the blastzone. Oh, something to keep in mind. You guys have a killing bthrow, right? Well, Dedede gets one, too, if his back is facing the nearest blastzone while on the platform (if it's near the edge of its travel trajectory). Definitely make sure to avoid getting grabbed ON the platform, but also make sure to utilize that platform well.

I'll talk about CPs at a later time. I hope my meager knowledge helped you guys out at least a little.

 

[DellSmashman]

What can you say? DDD's grab range alone makes Ness unable to really do anything safe. Maybe a well spaced Fair can avoid punishment, but even then, Ness can't force an approach, which is something DDD doesn't need to be doing anyway, but unfortunately, Ness will. Ness has the ability to juggle to some extent, but all of that is very likely to end when DDD FF's to airdodge, unless you read the landing. One of the biggest troubles in this MU for Ness is landing back on stage after he has been send in some manner, even after he gets CG'd offstage. Ness may try to use Fair on his DJ, or AD after his DJ, both of which are quite simple for DDD to bait. Bair also works really well on the edgeguarding fashion. As for killing, DDD's weight makes matters pretty tough. Bthrow shouldn't be KOing until about 160%+ or so. DDD will probably be shielding a lot in this MU, so you can actually get a few grabs. Don't get greedy, as it can lead to getting punished by Sidestep to Grab, putting you in a very bad position.

Not too sure on CP's, but I feel that the best stages for Ness in this MU are BF and Brinstar. DDD has like, so many CP's to name about, sooooo yeah.

 

[Eagleye893]

Is Pk Jump, wave-bounced Pk Jump or lag cancelled Pk Fire being considered? I know its hard to pull off in a match, but it might be something you need to learn for this match-up

I can pull those off every game flawlessly, and I must say it's not worth it. I'll start with lag-cancel.

Even if you do land laglessly near D3, he has enough range and control of the ground to destroy you. The only way in which this would make sense is if you PK Fire him from a very safe distance and he gets hit by the pillar. If he shields the pillar, we get grabbed at the very least. He can shield-dash without any punishment. Only bother with lagless pkfire if you can get the pillar up on a waddle dee/doo OR if he's airdodging to ground and your pkfire bolt travels at about the same rate as him.

PK Jump always depends on the situation... Most of the time it's not worth it because a good player can shield on reaction. It's mainly used to move around and juke, OR Jump at someone after a small amount of knockback to continue pressure.

 

[bubbaking]

Ness's uair kills D3, but not until a pretty high percent. Not really much earlier than bair, it seems. Be aware that D3's status as the fastest faller and 4th heaviest char in the game mean that he is the absolute hardest char to kill off the top.

As for killing, DDD's weight makes matters pretty tough. Bthrow shouldn't be KOing until about 160%+ or so.

I'm pretty sure Ness's bthrow will be killing D3 around 120% most of the time, unless you're, like, on one side of FD and you're being thrown the other way, lolz!

--Kill moves are relatively easy to see coming. Use this to your advantage by staying out of range of the two quick moves that can kill (BAir and UTilt) while making approaches.

Don't forget about dtilt. A lot of people never see dtilt coming and it comes out fast and kills. I also use this move to gimp Ness when he comes up too high on his DJ when recovering.

I don't really prefer to play against D3s, but they're better than both Marth and Falco.

Are they really? Marth and D3 are both -3 MUs for you, but Falco is only a -2. All three get CG's on you, but Falco's don't last forever like Marth's and D3's do.

Sorry for the double post...

I'm gonna talk about CPs now. Hey, don't forget that I'm not a top-level Dedede. I'm simply giving you my opinions on this MU, but surely players like Coney, 4God, and Technical_Chase would have much more meaningful insight for you to appreciate. Anyway, here goes:

Halberd - I both love and hate this stage against Ness. Watch the footage that baconator provided and you'll see part of why I have naturally come to dislike it. Do NOT get grabbed at the beginning of the match. The main part of the stage stays ground for about 11 seconds before rising into the air, and if I know that, then there are definitely some other D3 mains out there who also know this. If you get grabbed within a reasonable amount of time near the blastzones, you can say goodbye to your first stock. If you get grabbed while in the pit below the main platform, you get infinited until Dedede decides to release you, and if he plays it smart, he can get you killed while he survives the stage rising. After the platform has risen, we can move on to the next part of this stage, probably the best part for Ness. Remember what I said about continuing CG's along down-angled slopes; it's not possible, so don't let it happen to you. Of course, this does not apply to up-angled slopes. Same as on BF and Yoshi's, that huge platform in the middle really helps D3 out, since he can punish nearly all of your attempts for landing on it. However, due to the 'transparency' of the stage, you can somewhat plank/shark here with fairs and such. D3 can too, but his aerial mobility is crap (even though he has multiple jumps) so it's not too much to worry about. Of course, you also get more options for your recovery here, so it's much harder for me to gimp you. Once you get to the last transformation, it gets much better for DDD. Nothing short of the random obstacles stops his CG and the platform is still there to aid his camping and approaching. Don't forget to set up fire pillars on my Waddles and try to take advantage of the stage attacks since they can probably kill me earlier than you can. The low ceiling means you get to kill me with uair and bthrow earlier, but it also means you die to usmash and utilt faster too. Baconator loves this CP, especially against me, so you should probably consider it.

Brinstar - Possibly your best CP against Dedede, imo. Nearly nothing goes right for me here. CG's are messed up. You get to set up fire pillars all over the place. The one thing I have going for me is that one grab equates to you pretty much offstage, so I can attempt to gimp you. However, you can always go through the stage in the event that I take the ledge, so you can still find ways around me. I like to randomly throw out smashes here, since I know the "tentacle pillars" and weird capsule things extend the duration of my hitboxes, so make sure not to run into them. If you split the stage, you can safely camp with PK thunder and fire. You shouldn't really worry about my Waddle camping here. If anything, you can just stay behind a tentacle to avoid getting hit by Gordos and just come out to heal up using my Waddle Doos. I will probably just wait for the stage to come back together, cuz until then, approaching means I will have to do so in the air, and you can truly contest me then. If I have to turn around to bair, I can't fully commit to approaching and will have to probably retreat before I take some big damage. Your fair is a really good tool for repelling attempts on my part to approach. Just be aware that I can also shark on this stage and you should be fine. Of course, don't be on the platforms above me as well. Oh, and make use of lava combos. They are legit and your spike probably does a really good job of capitalizing on them.

Delfino - Possibly MY best CP, but maybe not against Ness. Alright, just by looking at the stage, you can see certain problems that would make you want to ban this stage outright. There are at least three points (probably more) on this stage with walk-offs for quick CG deaths. There are at least 5 walls (probably way more) for me to use to infinite you into utilt or usmash. I can shark while the stage is moving around. There are low platforms for me to use against you. If you use your ban on this stage, then so be it. If not, you will have to learn to fight on this stage. This is the stage where you might have to camp the hardest. While the stage is moving, you can shark. You can also utilize the platforms (namely the high ones and the ones quite far to the side) to try to stay away from me. While on the beaches, make sure to remember that I can't CG down slopes, only up them. Stay in the water if you have to. I'm not gonna go in it just to get you. I'm too afraid of your ridiculous spike for that. While at the point with the three pillars and water in between, use the pillars to camp. I'm forced to approach aerially, so use that against me. For all other points of the stage, avoid my grab like the plague! Go everywhere I am not. Use the umbrellas and tarps wisely cuz they are easily attacked through. I will CP you here if I am feeling confident in my ability to grab you here.

PS2 - Baconator can tell you I personally HATE this stage, but my reasons have almost no basis in this MU. On the ground transformation, I have a wall to CG-infinite>utilt/usmash you. Camp on the side I am not on. On the ice transformation, I get easy CG's and a true dthrow>usmash combo. Don't get grabbed. Also make sure to be wary of moving dsmashes, moving ftilts, etc. On the electric transformation, I get easy CG's and dthrow>usmash again. This form isn't so bad, though, cuz those treadmills really bring all things, good or bad, to an end pretty soon. If I'm in the middle, take to the treadmills and ledges. If I'm on those, take to the middle and make sure I don't ever make it back to the middle. Telling you to never go on the platforms would be giving you bad advice, but definitley don't stay on them too long. I like to smash randomly on the treadmills cuz...lolz...moving attacks with lag that is cancelled by falling off... Now, we get to the flying transformation. You'd think that Ness would excel here, cuz he already has a great aerial game, but lo and behold, D3 gets some nice benefits here, too. I think our CG is messed up by the extended air time, but dthrow>ftilt still works for D3 here and I think so does pummel release>dtilt. The increased upwards momentum and floatiness means we can chase you with bairs and uairs more. It seems hard, but I've definitely killed people by chasing them with uairs here before. Finally, we talk about the neutral form of this stage. IMO, this is the best form of this stage for you. I don't get dumb CG things outside of the regular stuff, and there are only the two platforms near the sides.

Rainbow Cruise - I don't know how to feel about this stage. It's clearly aerial-based, but there are so many awkward areas that I don't even know if it benefits Ness that much. There are four walls for CG infinites: one on the ship, and three along the top of the stage. Along the top, for a time, there are also walk-offs on both sides. Along the top, the platforms are much easier for you to use to move around while avoiding me than they are on other stages. This stage calls for a lot of preemptive movement from both sides, mainly to claim a good position before it's lost. You want to remain below me at all times, if possible. On the ship, you may have to camp on the right side for a while. It's not safe, and I can definitely force you off, but it's your best bet to avoid an infinite. Once the ship crashes and you get past me (cuz believe me, I will try to keep you on that thing for as long as possible so I can get an early gimp), start working on maintaining a position below me. The platforms are awkwardly placed for Dedede. I hate 'em. They always take at least two jumps for him to reach, so you can always use them as a safe avenue to escape. If I go on the platform you're on, you can take another one. Try to punish my moving around while remaining relatively safe. When I make moves to switch platforms, take the chance to tack on some damage, then retreat to another part of the stage. When I get on a carpet, try to take a carpet that's below the one I'm currently on. SH if you must to delay the carpet's travel so you don't get too close to me. Consider using multiple carpets at once to keep your options open. Once we hit the top part of the stage, a LOT of preemptive action begins to take place. Now, the whole time we've been moving around since we got off the ship, my life has been miserable, so I'm gonna make moves to end it as fast as possible by heading to the area to the right of the big pendulum. You must try to get there before me if possible. Why? Cuz whoever gets there first effectively controls half the stage for a good thirty seconds, more or less. If I get there first, I will be waiting to catch your landing with a grab or aerial. If I can, I will infinite you against the second of the four walls while the blastzone moves close to us so I have an option between utilt, usmash, and bthrow to kill you. If you get there first, you must be ready to continue making my life as hard as possible. Try to catch my landing with aerials or even a grab to net a quick kill (if I'm at high %'s). It's probably best to move to the lower platform once it appears, so that you can effectively cover both of my options once I finally decide to leave the pendulum area. Once I've finally gotten my feet on firm ground, it's time for you to retreat (again). Get on the right side of the wall and take the lower platform. Again, I will be forced to approach aerially, and you can take great advantage of this. Just make sure you don't get infinited against the third wall (just the other side of the block from the second wall). Once the stage has moved on, play very tactfully. My greatest desire is to CG towards either of the walk-offs so I can kill you. At this point, the platforms become much more viable as an option for you to use to traverse the stage without being utterly destroyed. Again, D3's aerial mobility sucks, so if I try to go up there, retreat or punish accordingly and move on. When we finally, get to the end, DO NOT get infinited against the fourth wall. I wouldn't even stay by it if I were you. Stay on the platform above or under it in a safe position from which you cannot be punished easily. Stage resets. Rinse and repeat. Also, when the stage completes a cycle, you can stay on the platform right under the fourth wall for a pretty long time. Potentially useful for stalling Dedede out. I really think this stage could be one of Ness's more viable CP's against Dedede, despite everyone saying this is such a great D3 stage.

Frigate - Again, there are good things, and there are bad things. There are slopes. If used correctly, they can be good for you (CGs are impossible on down-angled slopes). On the first form, we can get you on that left platform, so be careful. You should probably stick to the second platform on the right. Play it safe and you can get some PK attacks while on here. If not played safe, you can end up infinited against the wall or thrown off the stage to the right for a quick gimp or devastating punish. You know there is no ledge there, and so do I. If you are forced to recover there, be sure that D3 will make sure to maximum advantage of the chance you have given him (prepare to be fsmashed). On the second form, things get more interesting. Now the slopes come into play, and there is also that big platform in the middle. What's possibly more interesting are those platforms that pop in on the sides. They can be a blessing since they can suddenly give you more options on your recovery, but I can quickly turn them into curses. If you get grabbed on those platforms, you're probably dead. If I'm facing the right way, CG into fthrow at the right will almost always mean that you're KO'd and I'm not. Even if I'm facing the wrong way, I can just bthrow you and act accordingly. If the Platform was moving back out when I bthrew you, then you're probably dead. If not, then I will continue to pressure you until the platform moves back. You are now left in a bad position offstage against a Dedede who still has ALL his jumps and is ready to bair you to oblivion. Of course, make sure you don't get grabbed and put in a position that could kill you when the stage is rotating. I really don't think you should be CPing D3 to this stage when you still have options like Brinstar, BF, RC, SV, and Lylat. There seem to be simply too many things that can lead to you being gimped, either by Dedede or by the stage.

Edit: I feel like I should elaborate on something that I probably mentioned before but didn't talk a lot about. It's true that when Dedede is standing under a platform, he is in a really strong position that makes it nigh impossible to approach him. However, it is also true that if you can manage to catch something with a PK fire, like a Waddle, you can exert a strong form of stage control. One of the best places for you to place this fire pillar is directly under a platform. A PK fire pillar under a platform is really hard for D3 to get past, cuz he's gonna have to roll past it (you can punish rolls forward pretty easily with a grab or smash or something) or jump over it (and probably land on the platform). You're the "aerial-based character" here. If I'm forced to land on the platform, you can definitely punish that with something good. If I feel like throwing Waddles out under platforms for some reason, then definitely make sure to set up fire pillars on them if the conditions are right. Don't just let me stand/camp/approach under platforms. Try to turn the situation to your favor. Remember that and make sure to utilize fire pillars under platforms on every stage that has low platforms. If you can do that consistently, I feel like you could transform this nearly impossible MU into something more along the lines of a -2, cuz it's SUPER, SUPER hard for D3 to get past that stuff without getting punished pretty hard. Well, that's it.

 

[P.I.E.]

Definitely a -3, imo. If i ever manage to win, the timer's usually past 1:30..... playing extremely spacey and praying to god a gordo doesn't get you on your last stock is literally the only way to win... at least for me ^^' only way it's easier, is if a d3 isn't very good. there's plenty of offensive options, but i personally think staying on the offense vs. d3 is terrible. you can gimp if you tail whip his up b below the stage though, and pk fire is good. You can refresh your moves dtilting his minions as well. A well spaced countered to a d3's up-b (landing on the stage) is a free pkt2 if you can manage to trap him in the tail.

 

[Lukingordex]

A well spaced countered to a d3's up-b (landing on the stage) is a free pkt2 if you can manage to trap him in the tail.

I thought I was the only person who does it.

 

[Eagleye893]

The reason I say this matchup is better than playing against falco is we literally can't do anything to a good falco. Falco is basically the same "oh, You can't approach me" type thing as D3, but he's faster and has lasers. Sure he dies quicker, but we die quickly as well.

 

[bubbaking]

you can gimp if you tail whip his up b below the stage though, and pk fire is good. You can refresh your moves dtilting his minions as well. A well spaced countered to a d3's up-b (landing on the stage) is a free pkt2 if you can manage to trap him in the tail.

Do you have to trap him in the tail? I thought you simply had to PKT2 yourself into D3 wherever he was landing. You can even aim for him in the air. Also, PK fire can be pretty good for gimping D3. If you catch them with it and act quickly enough, it can be a free spike. It also catches D3 if he's hanging on the edge w/out invincibility. That situation is really good for you, cuz I just fall slowly straight down from the ledge with the pillar and it's pretty much an easy dair spike.

The reason I say this matchup is better than playing against falco is we literally can't do anything to a good falco. Falco is basically the same "oh, You can't approach me" type thing as D3, but he's faster and has lasers. Sure he dies quicker, but we die quickly as well.

Well, that's true, but at least you can heal off the lasers whenever he decides to hardcore camp you.

 

[R e d X]

Unfortunately don't have the time to go into depth (damn the uni exams!) but I agree with -3, I REALLY REALLY hate this MU, perhaps even more than Marth tbh, just really bugs me. I'd really recommend a secondary for this one, and that's sayin somethin as I'm incredibly stubborn and always go solo Ness no matter who I'm up against XD

Also Ness' b-throw defs doesn't kill around 120% lol, unless you're at the very edge of the stage or have atrocious DI. I would say around 150% is the right number from my experiences. Also Halberd and Cruise are both REALLY bad picks for Ness in this MU as well as CS and Delfino to a lesser extent. Obvs avoid FD as well if you can, it's not the first thing I ban against a D3 but defs something to strike for game 1.

Defs planing to contribute more to this project once my exams are over cause I love advancing Ness' meta-game! :D

 

[bubbaking]

Ahhh, finally, a high-level player's advice. A secondary is probably Ness's best bet on this one. I can see how RC, Siege, and Delfino can potentially be really bad for Ness against D3, but how is Halberd that bad? Also, I did feel like 120% may have been a bit too low for D3 to be dying to bthrow, but I think at 130-140%, he'll be dying as long as you aren't on the opposite side of the stage unless it's Final D or something.

 

[P.I.E.]

Do you have to trap him in the tail? I thought you simply had to PKT2 yourself into D3 wherever he was landing.

If he's coming down on the stage witout canceling, pkt2 probably wont beat it in terms of priority unless you're RIGHT next to him and time it rigt when he lands, which is a bit more difficult to do than simply playing it safe and stunning him with the tail.

 

[bubbaking]

If he's at kill %'s, couldn't you shield the landing and bthrow/bair oos him?

 

[baconator25]

If he's at kill percents, it'd probably be better to just uair him before he lands unless it's on a stage with a ridiculously high ceiling, in which case bthrow OoS would probably be best.

 

[bubbaking]

Uair D3 before he lands? You risk getting spiked/killed. You could just shield the impact and uair oos, imho.

 

[Jamwa]

Uair D3 before he lands? You risk getting spiked/killed. You could just shield the impact and uair oos, imho.

its quite easy to pull off, and getting him before he lands means hes higher to dying from the top

 

[bubbaking]

I see... Always have to watch out for the recovery cancel mixup, of course.

 

[Jamwa]

I see... Always have to watch out for the recovery cancel mixup, of course.

Punish the free fall by using the windbox of Psi Magnet to push D3 away from ledge and watch him fall to his doom. to actually pull that off would be cool

 

[bubbaking]

Thank goodness for us it's not a water gun.

 

[R e d X]

Alrighty, time for a bit of speculation on this MU.

General Things:

Spacing is really really important in this MU (obviously), and approaching safely can be quite a challenge with D3's enormous grab range and u-tilt while he's grounded and u-air, d-air and b-air while he's in the air. My personal way of dealing with this MU is to play very defensively and never over commit to anything unless D3's made a mistake or you've baited him to commit and read it properly. Usually I do this with very carefully spaced f-airs and perhaps a b-air or n-air if the opportunity presents itself, but I don't like to rely on these as much. Given the the consequences of getting grabbed and the other out-spacing options D3 has on Ness in nearly all situations, Ness has no choice but to go fully defensive against any good D3 imo. Tbh I play this matchup differently against each D3 and I usually do this one on the fly with no solidly defined gameplay style in mind as a result. Imo it takes a lot of adaptation to overcome this MU, but with patience and precision it can be done.


Good Moves in this MU (imo): F-air, B-air, N-air B-throw

F-air is just a great spacing tool in general, and though it doesn't help out as much against D3 as against others, I still find it a good option. B-air I find favourable due to D3's poor horizontal DI and can be a good KO move with good reads. B-throw can also be difficult to DI if the release trajectory is horizontal and is good for similar reasons to b-air, though getting in a grab before D3 grabs you can be tough. N-air I find useful as pressure in the air when you're in D3's face as after an air dodge n-air is easy to land on D3 (as he's so big) and just generally the way I find this MU works in the air, n-air is frequently a good option for punishing a bait when you can't find the time or place for a b-air


Stages to strike: YiB, Siege, PS1/FD

PS1 is arguably worse for Ness due to the many opportunities for wall infinites and such, but personally I prefer it to FD, which offers virtually no variety in terms of approach and makes for a very difficult time of trying to find openings vs a good D3. Siege hes walkoffs, and I just generally find the layout unhelpful for maneuvering around vs D3. YiB sucks for Ness (as I'm sure we all know) and I find that the middle platform hinders our approach.


Stage to ban: Halberd

Though one could arguably ban Cruise due the ship having a wall infinite and Delfino for the walkoffs and walls, I still prefer them both to Halberd which has a low ceiling (early u-tilt KOs) and the middle platform which I find makes it difficult to approach. Delfino and Cruise both offer at least a little bit more versatility in terms of approaching.


Stage to CP: Brinstar

We all know that Ness is great here, and despite the boundaries being small on this stage I still favour it as I feel that the type of pressure we can apply here given the stage's layout and ability to rise through the floor allow Ness to be slightly more versatile while still remaining safe. Some spots also allow for Ness to spawn pillars of fire with PK fire (much like what can be done with D3's side-b), but much like D3's side-b, this is not something that should really be all that relied upon too heavily.


Secondaries?

I'd recommend one for this one. It sucks. Alot. Other than MK (who works pretty much everywhere), Oli works well as a second and I find him rather effective against D3. But hey, if you like being stubborn to the point of foolishness (like myself) this matchup IS winnable, so go for it


Overall MU Spread: -3

I really agree with -3. Not much else to say here.

 

[bubbaking]

Stage to ban: Halberd

Though one could arguably ban Cruise due the ship having a wall infinite and Delfino for the walkoffs and walls, I still prefer them both to Halberd which has a low ceiling (early u-tilt KOs) and the middle platform which I find makes it difficult to approach. Delfino and Cruise both offer at least a little bit more versatility in terms of approaching.

You really think Halberd is worse for Ness than RC? Not only does RC have several walls for infinites (not only the one on the ship) but the moving nature of the stage means D3 will get many chances to gimp Ness before it can get to the top. Besides, a low ceiling means Ness can kill D3 earlier w/ a clutch uair or a bthrow if DDD manages to DI upwards. However, I still think Cruise might actually be a legit CP option for Ness if he's on top of his game. If I were Ness, my ban would probably be Delfino. You might want to refer to my post stating my opinons on all the CPs in this MU (although, of course, your opinion as a high-level player is probably more informed and educated). For convenience, I'll quote the parts about Halberd, Delfino, and RC below

Halberd - I both love and hate this stage against Ness. Watch the [scrubby] footage that baconator provided and you'll see part of why I have naturally come to dislike it. Do NOT get grabbed at the beginning of the match. The main part of the stage stays ground for about 11 seconds before rising into the air, and if I know that, then there are definitely some other D3 mains out there who also know this. If you get grabbed within a reasonable amount of time near the blastzones, you can say goodbye to your first stock. If you get grabbed while in the pit below the main platform, you get infinited until Dedede decides to release you, and if he plays it smart, he can get you killed while he survives the stage rising. After the platform has risen, we can move on to the next part of this stage, probably the best part for Ness. Remember what I said about continuing CG's along down-angled slopes; it's not possible, so don't let it happen to you. Of course, this does not apply to up-angled slopes. Same as on BF and Yoshi's, that huge platform in the middle really helps D3 out, since he can punish nearly all of your attempts for landing on it. However, due to the 'transparency' of the stage, you can somewhat plank/shark here with fairs and such. D3 can too, but his aerial mobility is crap (even though he has multiple jumps) so it's not too much to worry about. Of course, you also get more options for your recovery here, so it's much harder for me to gimp you. Once you get to the last transformation, it gets much better for DDD. Nothing short of the random obstacles stops his CG and the platform is still there to aid his camping and approaching. Don't forget to set up fire pillars on my Waddles and try to take advantage of the stage attacks since they can probably kill me earlier than you can. The low ceiling means you get to kill me with uair and bthrow earlier, but it also means you die to usmash and utilt faster too. Baconator loves this CP, especially against me, so you should probably consider it.

Delfino - Possibly MY best CP, but maybe not against Ness. Alright, just by looking at the stage, you can see certain problems that would make you want to ban this stage outright. There are at least three points (probably more) on this stage with walk-offs for quick CG deaths. There are at least 5 walls (probably way more) for me to use to infinite you into utilt or usmash. I can shark while the stage is moving around. There are low platforms for me to use against you. If you use your ban on this stage, then so be it. If not, you will have to learn to fight on this stage. This is the stage where you might have to camp the hardest. While the stage is moving, you can shark. You can also utilize the platforms (namely the high ones and the ones quite far to the side) to try to stay away from me. While on the beaches, make sure to remember that I can't CG down slopes, only up them. Stay in the water if you have to. I'm not gonna go in it just to get you. I'm too afraid of your ridiculous spike for that. While at the point with the three pillars and water in between, use the pillars to camp. I'm forced to approach aerially, so use that against me. For all other points of the stage, avoid my grab like the plague! Go everywhere I am not. Use the umbrellas and tarps wisely cuz they are easily attacked through. I will CP you here if I am feeling confident in my ability to grab you here.

Rainbow Cruise - I don't know how to feel about this stage. It's clearly aerial-based, but there are so many awkward areas that I don't even know if it benefits Ness that much. There are four walls for CG infinites: one on the ship, and three along the top of the stage. Along the top, for a time, there are also walk-offs on both sides. Along the top, the platforms are much easier for you to use to move around while avoiding me than they are on other stages. This stage calls for a lot of preemptive movement from both sides, mainly to claim a good position before it's lost. You want to remain below me at all times, if possible. On the ship, you may have to camp on the right side for a while. It's not safe, and I can definitely force you off, but it's your best bet to avoid an infinite. Once the ship crashes and you get past me (cuz believe me, I will try to keep you on that thing for as long as possible so I can get an early gimp), start working on maintaining a position below me. The platforms are awkwardly placed for Dedede. I hate 'em. They always take at least two jumps for him to reach, so you can always use them as a safe avenue to escape. If I go on the platform you're on, you can take another one. Try to punish my moving around while remaining relatively safe. When I make moves to switch platforms, take the chance to tack on some damage, then retreat to another part of the stage. When I get on a carpet, try to take a carpet that's below the one I'm currently on. SH if you must to delay the carpet's travel so you don't get too close to me. Consider using multiple carpets at once to keep your options open. Once we hit the top part of the stage, a LOT of preemptive action begins to take place. Now, the whole time we've been moving around since we got off the ship, my life has been miserable, so I'm gonna make moves to end it as fast as possible by heading to the area to the right of the big pendulum. You must try to get there before me if possible. Why? Cuz whoever gets there first effectively controls half the stage for a good thirty seconds, more or less. If I get there first, I will be waiting to catch your landing with a grab or aerial. If I can, I will infinite you against the second of the four walls while the blastzone moves close to us so I have an option between utilt, usmash, and bthrow to kill you. If you get there first, you must be ready to continue making my life as hard as possible. Try to catch my landing with aerials or even a grab to net a quick kill (if I'm at high %'s). It's probably best to move to the lower platform once it appears, so that you can effectively cover both of my options once I finally decide to leave the pendulum area. Once I've finally gotten my feet on firm ground, it's time for you to retreat (again). Get on the right side of the wall and take the lower platform. Again, I will be forced to approach aerially, and you can take great advantage of this. Just make sure you don't get infinited against the third wall (just the other side of the block from the second wall). Once the stage has moved on, play very tactfully. My greatest desire is to CG towards either of the walk-offs so I can kill you. At this point, the platforms become much more viable as an option for you to use to traverse the stage without being utterly destroyed. Again, D3's aerial mobility sucks, so if I try to go up there, retreat or punish accordingly and move on. When we finally, get to the end, DO NOT get infinited against the fourth wall. I wouldn't even stay by it if I were you. Stay on the platform above or under it in a safe position from which you cannot be punished easily. Stage resets. Rinse and repeat. Also, when the stage completes a cycle, you can stay on the platform right under the fourth wall for a pretty long time. Potentially useful for stalling Dedede out. I really think this stage could be one of Ness's more viable CP's against Dedede, despite everyone saying this is such a great D3 stage.

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