ness discussion

[The Star King]

ciaza and co are just mad because im still matching them with my inferior controls

They're silly then. Being good on keyboard doesn't mean you'll be much better on controller.

Pretend he's using a controller, kids. It doesn't make a difference.

 

[ciaza]

Are you trying to argue that keyboards are just as good as controllers when it comes to this game then?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Yeah, we are.

GET AT ME

 

[The Star King]

Are you trying to argue that keyboards are just as good as controllers when it comes to this game then?

No.

But the difference isn't hugely significant.

 

[ciaza]

Yeah, we are.

GET AT ME

I've already seen the debate happen before. Basically keyboards allow for better DI. Contrrollers allow you take full advantage of the games mechanics such as more than 8 directions for fox's recovery, better Pikachu recovery and basically everything that a joystick can offer over arrow keys.

No.

But the difference isn't hugely significant.

Maybe not, but over the time I've known aa I haven't seen him improve much whereas people who have switched to controller (myself, rom and more) have improved significantly. However, there may be another factor with him I don't know about.

 

[The Star King]

I use keyboard, and I've improved faster than pretty much anyone else I've ever seen (except maybe th3kuzinator, who also uses keyboard).

 

[th3kuzinator]

granted we dont have the 8 directional thing, which of course hinders us.

Im not even referencing the DI, cuz isai slide DI is just as nuts. Only those turbo keyboard things REALLY make a difference. And those are just homo.

I was being fairly sarcastic there, but yeah the only thing I can see is fox's recovery and pika's recovery being hindered.

Everything else is just per normal.

I have a better yoshi than the majority of good controller players.

Star king and sheer are the two that I can think of who are beastier. Them and prince.

 

[ciaza]

I use keyboard, and I've improved faster than pretty much anyone else I've ever seen (except maybe th3kuzinator, who also uses keyboard).

Fair enough, I haven't witnessed most NA's development for obvious reasons, so with aa I went with the most obvious difference between him and the rest of the players I know.

 

[Olikus]

I use keyboard, and I've improved faster than pretty much anyone else I've ever seen (except maybe th3kuzinator, who also uses keyboard).

I would guess thats more because of your talent/skill or/and amount of training rather than that you use keyboard, but what do I know.

 

[The Star King]

I would guess thats more because of your talent/skill or/and amount of training rather than that you use keyboard, but what do I know.

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying keyboard players improve faster or something dumb like that, lol

 

[th3kuzinator]

I just actually practiced the **** outta the game, doubt it had anything to do with kb.

Regardless, kb is beast, just sayin

 

[Peek~]

Not ness discussion

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

hey you non ness keyboard ***s, get out of peek's ness discussion!

 

[asianaussie]

just saying, i picked up a controller today for the first time in a year and a bit and i can instantly do tech things like NESS DJC SHIELD BREAKS AND EXTENDED HORIZONTAL DJC AND WEIRD PK THUNDER TRICKS perfectly

but i can't on keyboard after like 3/4 years of constant play

i guess ill main ness and fox on controller

this post is relevant

 

[blaze3927]

i lol'd dan

ciaza and co are just mad because im still matching them with my inferior controls

my brother wants to invest in a controller for his fifa so i might get on and use that

AA: I use Keyboard
Ciaza and Co: FUUU buy a controller
AA: nah i like being a jew
Ciaza and co: (facepalm)
AA: (trollface)
Robsta: I'm hosting a console smash tourney at couch warriors.
AA: Where ps2 port for my keyboard on N64 console?
Ciaza and co: (smugface)
AA: D:

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Ness Discussion = Keyboard/Controller Discussion
When did that happened?

 

[blaze3927]

your right, this game is for the nintendo 64, and this is the ness thread
no questions regarding keyboard input please, forward to www.microsoft.com

its most likely because theres not much to talk about with ness.
i have a question.
Does anybody else use offensive pk thunder 2 when edgeguarding?
for example on the left of hyrule)
Bthrow (enter character here) off stage at about %60
ledge cancel a 1 or 2 pk thunders to rack up some damage
drop down a fair distance, but enough so that you can hit (enter character here) with pk thunder2
then pkthunder 2 up the side of hyrule's wall.
if timed well hit (enter character here)

its a strong move, and pretty reliable unless your playing a pikachu who can quick attack past the giant moving hitbox, or worse, intercept your pkthunder with quick attack.

 

[asianaussie]

btw the next tourney im going to is running smash on a tv and a laptop, and im demanding all my matches be played on laptop

nobody but you and that simna guy from melee uses pk thunder 2 to edgeguard outside friendlies

 

[The Star King]

btw the next tourney im going to is running smash on a tv and a laptop, and im demanding all my matches be played on laptop

nobody but you and that simna guy from melee uses pk thunder 2 to edgeguard outside friendlies

I was about to rage until I saw PK Thunder TWO.

That was a close one.

 

[Peek~]

Does anybody else use offensive pk thunder 2 when edgeguarding?

Yes

I prefer coming from on top and aiming downwards. I aim it right above the edge.

I also like using it after spike. Ive only been doing it against spikes that force teching, but the mindgames that come with the opponent jumping are fun

 

[wiscompton]

sup guys, first post

i've never met an opponent i couldn't take down with ness, aside from kirby and pika once in a while, and i've played "the best" every collegiate town in WI has to offer...but i recently realized how much i blow compared to Isai and such.

i've picked up on the quick double jump to allow for dair, bair etc... right above the ground, but i feel like there's something i'm still missing.

it seems like every tournament video i watch ness is moving so fast and dashing into and out of every move with an insignificant amount of lag...how can i do this?

are there certain things i can do like z-canceling right before the ground? i've spent time in training and training with friends (50-stock) but for some reason i just can't seem to get rid of this landing lag and after-move lag.

i'm aware of the whole frame-rate thing...am i just not hitting z in the exact right frame?

haha, sorry for the lengthy post... just really trying to take my ness game to the next level.

 

[asianaussie]

There's a very wide frame for hitting Z - about a third of a second, if I recall correctly. It's just a matter of practice. Ness is one of two characters possessing moves with zero ending lag - his U-Air and D-Air don't need to be cancelled.

Many of Ness's moves have hefty lag, especially if they miss. This can't really be avoided in the case of smashes and tilts, but aerials can be sped up a bit with some practice in cancelling and learning timing.

 

[The Star King]

You also may not be DJCing as fast as you could. Try sliding your thumb across the down and right c-buttons to A.

 

[wiscompton]

You also may not be DJCing as fast as you could. Try sliding your thumb across the down and right c-buttons to A.

DJC = double jump canceling, correct? (just so i'm on the same page)

i've just been hammering the down-c twice, but that makes a lot more sense. i've tried it before but couldn't seem to get it every time. practice makes perfect though, i suppose.

i'd like to see a simul-shot of isai (or someone of high skill) with one camera on the screen and another on the controller. is there anything out there like that?

 

[asianaussie]

There isn't, but even people who aren't good with Ness usually just slide from right-c to down-c to A because it's a straight line, and is therefore the logical choice for fastest.

If you're too fast you won't even get the aerial out before you cancel into the ground though, so timing is something you need to learn.

 

[wiscompton]

i think i've been playing with sub-par people too long.

my technique for the people i play with most is just molest them with Dair and Uair then one toss off the map...to put it in perspective.

i'm really impressed with how promptly you guys responded, btw. haha, i love this forum.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Using up and a C button works as well.

 

[wiscompton]

Using up and a C button works as well.

i actually experimented with that, but found little success. i think the c to c suits my style of play/grip.

 

[dandan]

you really do need good opponents if you are to improve, at least improve quickly.

my best advice is to find out if someone good is living near you, and start playing online.

 

[Sempiternity]

I think Isai once said that he just presses a C-button twice to do DJC. Work on those fast fingers, I guess.

 

[th3kuzinator]

thats how I do all my yoshi djcs.

 

[Sempiternity]

I think Yoshi DJCs are easier, though, since Yoshi sorta goes back down after the second jump before looping up, so you can afford to press the second jump button later and still get minimal distance from the ground. You can't actually press the buttons as fast as you would for Ness, or you'd just make an awesome, cute sound and stay on the ground in a cloud of smoke/dust.

With Ness, the faster the better.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I think Isai once said that he just presses a C-button twice to do DJC. Work on those fast fingers, I guess.

nope

Using up and a C button works as well.

this ^

 

[ballin4life]

Yoshi DJCs are way harder because you can't button slide.

Boom, isn't it hard to do fast DJC dairs if you have to press up?

 

[Peek~]

Up + C is too awesome, DJCing Fairs and Bairs back and foward is insanely fun

Pressing jump twice is hard ;_;

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

yeah djc dairs are a bit harder this way but everything else gets tons easier.

 

[sharksquail]

how do you do the djc acceleration. i try to do it by djc'ing without doing the areal at the end, but i feel like i'm not staying close enough to the ground or moving fast enough.

 

[Pacifist60000]

Hey everyone, found this place a little while ago, great discussion, really wish there was more of this out there. I don't mean to brag, especially on my first post, but I have been practicing the DJC for several years now and I feel as if I have some sort of mastery of it. At first, I could only do DJC + d-air because I was not jumping twice fast enough. D-air is more forgiving because you attack down afterwards (obviously, it’s d-air), so even if you don’t perfect the timing of the DJ, you are forgiven because Ness’ d-air has enough range where you can be moderately elevated and the hitbox still touches at least the opponent’s head (it is also forgiving because of the lack of cancelling). After I started getting the hang of this, I began to learn DJC + f & b air. B-air is extremely valuable because of its long range, relative to the short range of Ness’ other air moves, especially f-air and n-air, in which the hitbox barely extends past Ness’ torso. Pressing (C + C + joystick L or R + R + air move direction) allows you to slide across the level a certain distance, while extending the distance with further with the range of the b-air. If perfected this can be more effective than Ness’ dash A, which also covers horizontal distance but has delay afterwards. Once you begin to get the hang of DJC, which is essentially just C + C + R + direction of your choice, you can begin to try DJC n-air and u-air. N-air is difficult because the hitbox has such poor range that you must use it immediately after jumping to hit an opponent, and it needs to be well timed because the opponent must be close. Obviously all the DJCs are easier on taller characters such as Samus or DK; to hit Kirby or Jiggly with a DJC n-air is difficult. Maybe it’s best to practice on the tall characters first, although I do not remember doing this specifically. DJC + n-air is also very valuable for tight spaces, such as next to the steeple (or whatever it is) in hyrule. Ness benefits from the all-encompassing hitbox in close quarters. The most difficult though, is of course DJC u-air, for several reasons. One, the hitbox is ABOVE Ness, so you must be in the air while still being below or at least eye level with the opponent. Also difficult, you must press up on the joystick to perform u-air. Therefore, if the timing of pressing the buttons is not correct, you will float upwards more than you want, as pressing up for and intended u-air with the wrong timing, can become a jump instead. This is not the case with DJC d-air, as pressing down at the wrong time won’t change the outcome as heavily.

Combos; The DJC + u-air is valuable because it can initiate juggling combos that are impossible to escape if the opponent is at a low percent or heavy. DJC + d-air is a great combo too, but it can easily be rolled out of. The best way to use DJC + d-air, in my experience, is on a small platform, where the opponent can only roll away to the sides of the platform (ie, the central elevated platforms in hyrule). You can reach the side of the platform at the same time that your opponent does, and initiate another DJC + d-air before they can escape, leading to huge combos. This is theoretically possible on any surface if you can immediately predict which way your opponent is going to roll after the initial DJC + d-air. If you can dash over to that area with Ness first, and reach the location where the roll ends at least at the same time as the opponent, you can initiate the next DJC + d-air. I hope this makes sense, I do not profess to be exceptional at this game because I haven’t played a wide variety of people, perhaps there are strategies that I am unaware of to escape or heavily counter the techniques that I am describing.

 

[asianaussie]

I would argue DJC U-Air is the easiest, because you can use a c-button and stick jump for incredibly fast DJC. Works even better on keyboard.

DJC D-Air isn't a combo at all, but techchasing a bunch is a pseudo-combo. In 64 combos are essentially inescapable, whereas melee combos might include techchases or a string of attacks that may not connect 100% of the time, so the term is forgiven.

It's probably better to come into forums with the intent of learning rather than teaching, and it would also be good if you formatted the text a bit...walls of text are painful, and I'm even on a widescreen monitor...

 

[Sempiternity]

DJC D-Air isn't a combo at all, but techchasing a bunch is a pseudo-combo. In 64 combos are essentially inescapable, whereas melee combos might include techchases or a string of attacks that may not connect 100% of the time, so the term is forgiven.

And Brawl?