ness discussion

[Peek~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkrU9DG3jH8&feature=feedu

doug usmash @30
the samus duck was a dtilt, my bad. but its at 12:05 anyway.

Funny moments

Not sure what I was doing against Falcon but against Samus I felt a Dair coming. I do CC alot vs Samus, messes them up

 

[weedwack]

i know knockback decreases throughout the duration of Nair. Does the priority decrease too? does the same hold for Fair?

 

[asianaussie]

Priority is a misused word.

The hitboxes of Ness' N-Air and F-Air don't change until they disappear at the end of the move.

 

[Infamous_Diablo]

Ness is so good his recovery is beast. 30% if I hit you so watch out (and please don't edgeguard me).

DJC combos are nice and easy to pull off once (if) you get the first hit. Plus you make fox/mario players hesitate slightly before using projectiles. His grab also finishes pretty nicely, and in teams it hits people around you.

Pretty much every character is easy to edgeguard, I don't know why people say that his slow recovery is such a bad thing (although it's worse than others).

His dair has a standard long hitbox with strong spiking power, and his uptilt is pretty good.

The only problem with Ness is that while he has some amazing moves, he also lots of bad moves to go with them, he's a characer of extremes.

i couldnt agree more except for the part where ness has lots of bad moves. every one of his smash attacks is good and his kickdown sets up combos like a champ. yea his b up move isnt so great but loike u said if used right as an attack it does thirty damage. anyone can edge guard any character but if ness gets you off the ledge your chances of coming back are slim to none

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

And if you get ness offstage, ness' chances of coming back are none.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

**** just got real.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

And if you get ness offstage, ness' chances of coming back are none.

^^^ LOL. This.

if ness gets you off the ledge your chances of coming back are slim to none

Yeah, but any high level player that gets an opponent out of stage, chances of comming back are near to none.

 

[dandan]

am i the only one really waiting for them to get online

 

[Sangoku]

I first thought that post of puu was ironic. If it were, Infamous Diablo would seem stupid. If it weren't, he would still seem stupid though.

 

[Rubbish]

^^^ LOL. This.


Yeah, but any high level player that gets an opponent out of stage, chances of comming back are near to none.

Pika and kirby say hi.

 

[asianaussie]

Kirby doesn't often get back.

Pika does.

 

[Battlecow]

People exaggerate when it comes to how hard it is to recover

Kirby recovers relatively often, especially if she's not hit far + low.

Even ness recovers once in a while with a freak sweetspot or something.

 

[asianaussie]

we're talking about 'high level play'

assume the cheapest edgeguards possible executed perfectly

 

[Battlecow]

MEH

so maybe never with ness

But most characters can recover a lot of the time, even at high levels. Even against Isai or Boom, a lot of people manage to throw out a mindgame and make it back even with falcon or fox. And yet people love to say that you can "never" recover with said characters or that they "should be dead" as soon as they go off. A majority of the time? Maybe. But not always by any means.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Question! you know how at the right distance ness' b up will leave you hanging on to the edge of highrule forexample. and other times your way to close and you kinda like bounce off and fall to your doom? is there anyway to perfect ness' b up so that you land hanging on the edge everytime? or is it a practice makes perfect kinda thing.

 

[ballin4life]

battlecow is right about people's exaggerations about edgeguards. Similarly people exaggerate about combos, saying stuff like "oh 1 hit and Jiggs will 0-death Pika" which is pretty situational. Not everything is 0-death AT ALL, for any character.

Kero, I think it has to do with the angle. If you're coming from far enough above, then you'll catch the ledge no matter the distance. I could be wrong that it's specifically the angle, but it's definitely not only the distance.

Also, why is it that on the left side of Hyrule if you hit the side going downwards with your upB slide you will pop back up? Does that happen in any other places?

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, it works on DL too (and I'm pretty sure any wall), Firo does it all the time. I have wet dreams about finishing a 30-hit ness combo with an Up-B that angles down into the tenthouse and shoots you straight up to intercept your flying opponent.

 

[ciaza]

When your trajectory changes after hitting the wall, sending you upwards, do you still have hitboxs though?

 

[KeroKeroppi]

i seeee, thanks balllin. and battlecow it works on the side of the tenttt too??

now that you mention it ciaza i dont recall ever hitting anyone with his kamehameha after going upwards from a down blastt.. maybee not?

 

[Peek~]

MEH

so maybe never with ness

But most characters can recover a lot of the time, even at high levels. Even against Isai or Boom, a lot of people manage to throw out a mindgame and make it back even with falcon or fox. And yet people love to say that you can "never" recover with said characters or that they "should be dead" as soon as they go off. A majority of the time? Maybe. But not always by any means.

Its impossible to recover with Ness against Boom

 

[ballin4life]

Yeah, it works on DL too (and I'm pretty sure any wall), Firo does it all the time. I have wet dreams about finishing a 30-hit ness combo with an Up-B that angles down into the tenthouse and shoots you straight up to intercept your flying opponent.

Uh, I always found that I could not do it on the right side of Hyrule. Also on DL I feel like I just smack the wall and die, but maybe I'm missing the target there since the stage is vertically smaller and inward sloping.

When your trajectory changes after hitting the wall, sending you upwards, do you still have hitboxs though?

Pretty sure yes, it looks to me like it just changes trajectory.

 

[The Star King]

I agree completely with ballin/Battlecow about the exaggeration

...WTF what are you guys plotting?

The Ness going up against a wall thing only works from the left

 

[Luco]

Man i loved that tenthouse. It was always too crowded though. Usually i'd use ness' grab because of that. Even so, it's the worst thing to be put up against that wall by fox's lazers. They used to give me nightmares...

 

[Infamous_Diablo]

understandable how people say with any good edgeguarder its near impossible to come back no matter what character your using. so then this shudnt put ness at any significant handicap. i got my online set up im just waiting for my adapter to come.

 

[Infamous_Diablo]

am i the only one really waiting for them to get online

i cant wait to get online either so i can use you as my puppet to prove ness' worth

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

understandable how people say with any good edgeguarder its near impossible to come back no matter what character your using. so then this shudnt put ness at any significant handicap.

That's taking the Rat out of the recovery punishment list.

And, it is true that you need to have certain skill level to get back to the platform in haigh lvl play with any other character, but with Ness... Just get online and you'll see what we mean.

[COLLAPSE=Infamous_Diablo Click]Avoid double post, just as an advice though, please don't take it the wrong way.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[dandan]

i cant wait to get online either so i can use you as my puppet to prove ness' worth

please do, i make a damn good puppet

 

[Surri-Sama]

i cant wait to get online either so i can use you as my puppet to prove ness' worth

NY is Closer to NFLD then most people in the USA, we should p2p when you get your stuff.

 

[Luco]

I seem to recall Yink or someone saying it was best to use ness' recovery when he was first hit out rather than waiting until you were effectively lower than the stage because it made it harder for people to come out and do that trick to edgeguard you.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I seem to recall Yink or someone saying it was best to use ness' recovery when he was first hit out rather than waiting until you were effectively lower than the stage because it made it harder for people to come out and do that trick to edgeguard you.

Maybe in another game, but for most of the cast if you are any where near the stage and you try to use PK thunder they'll either hit you back, spike, or just steal the bolt

Perhaps if you're hit out far enough away so that they cant reach you, but you can still recover ...but if this is the case chances are you're going to put your self in an easy spot to simple poke back off stage...or smash to death.

All in all if you cant sweet spot with ness you're in BETTER hands but that's pretty hard to do consistently.

Spoiler

When recovering with ness your BEST bet is to simply hit the foe with the pk thunder, they may not expect it and at least you'll get damage in before you die.

 

[Battlecow]

You actually want to recover from above when you can, as ness. Angle it down and you've got no landing lag, plus it makes it easier to sweetspot. go from below and you're gonna be hanging above the ledge for them to do w/e to you for a long time.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Your landing lag wont matter much since you're still using ness recovery.

Sweet spotting still isn't easy (Peeks the only ness i see constantly do it)

Sweet spotting from the bottom / coming really close isn't to hard compared to shooting your self at the stage (Which can kill you regardless of foe).

To be honest i wasn't specifically saying coming from the top is always bad, more so quickly attempting to do a recovery when you are hit off isn't THAT great of an idea MOST of the time.

 

[Luco]

Sorry, i phrased that wrong, but i do mean if you are far enough away do they won't immediately get to you.

If you're close enough just use his second jump. It's an awesome little (by little i mean big :-P ) jump.

 

[Peek~]

Before you even think about using Ness Missile you should try recovering without it(using your DJC).

Uair - Drops you fast, lasts a bit longer than you think and may have you miss the ledge, mainly used for tricking/fast recovering

Fair - Provides some front protection(wont beat out 95% of enemy attacks), somewhat stable, may miss ledge

Nair - Lasts a bit long, Clashes with more attacks more than Fair, not very reliable

Bair - You either grab the ledge after or drop like a rock, not reliable and try not to kill your forward momentum

Dair - Most stable, very quick ledge grab, very reliable

Fire - Drops you very fast, last long, very unreliable

Magnet - Drops you down and forward, kills forward momentum quickly, grabs the ledge instantly, you either grab it or you die

Thunder - Has some nice Forward momentum after 2nd jump, Sperm ball can be used as an attack while grabbing ledge(make sure the ball comes out before you are next to the ledge, use the forward momentum from your 2nd jump to take you to the ledge while the ball comes out), You stay in place for a while then grab ledge

 

[The Star King]

Speaking of which, why do I see nobody do that

When I saw Peek doing it, I felt dumb for not thinking of it myself and promptly stole it from him

And I expected everybody to do the same soon

But I see nobody else doing it

Although, I don't use different moves for different situations like he apparently does. I usually just dair because it has the least lag (I only use PSI magnet from below).

 

[B Link]

Nice list - it's something I'll play around with, now that I'm using ness more.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Practice mostly. You could memorize how much the distance is, but when you're offstage with NESS, I don't see how you can reliably space yourself(assuming you've already used your second jump) outside of mild DIing(and the more time you wait, it's more chances for your opponent to guess what you're doing and edgehog you for an instant KO.

 

[Keep~]

too lazy to go through my thread but is the general consensus that ness sucks?

 

[Sangoku]

Yes, it is.

 

[WOTG]

Anyone think using PK Fire on a Utilting Kirby can possibly be an effective strategy?