Ness boarders, LISTEN UP! I need help with the matchup charts with Ness.

[Smashbros_7]

Since Raph and Yuna drilled into my head the Ness vs Zelda matchup, why don't we cover Ness false disadvantages. I mean so many mistakes.

Ness currently has over 20 disadvantages. We need to change that.

And if Raph wants to help... feel free. (doubt it) (Yes IM goading you)
Yuna too.



I say Neutral Ness with DK and Shiek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAokUZS4ISM&feature=related

 

[NukeNess]

Id be willing to say Sonic doesnt have an advantage over Ness. Is there anything Sonic does thats not stopped by a PK Fire or fair? A lot of time the speed sonic moves into a PK Fire makes him take close to the full blunt of it too easily setting up combos. Havent played any good DKs yet but just because of how easy it is to dair(not sure if u air has priority or not) his save you could make a case for neutral. Not sure about the other X's on the chart cause I dont know if my experiences are common or just due to some poor competition.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Sonic should be neutral. Check.

 

[Brinzy]

I asked the Pokemon Trainer board about Squirtle, even though their chart has it as netural anyway, so maybe we can just get that technicality out of the way.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Definetely. Why is it that squirtle have over Ness anyway? CG? DECONFIRMED!

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness has the advnatage over Sonic. Dtilt+yo-yo=No spin
Ness also is NOT at a disadvanatage to Squirtle. Range.
I gave up on that chart. Its totally wrong and I dont think it's gonna be fixed the right way. The happy happyh cult at All is Brawl has a matchups discussion.

 

[Brinzy]

The chart will be totally wrong so long as one person who sporadically visits is doing slow updates. At the very least, we should have our own full matchup thread completed.

 

[NKCell]

Ness has the advnatage over Sonic. Dtilt+yo-yo=No spin
Ness also is NOT at a disadvanatage to Squirtle. Range.
I gave up on that chart. Its totally wrong and I dont think it's gonna be fixed the right way. The happy happyh cult at All is Brawl has a matchups discussion.

I'm with EB360, this chart is bananas. I can't see Ness having a disadvantage against DK, Fox, (large disadvantage against G&W?), Ice Climbers (unless there's something about their grab), Link, Olimar, Sonic, Squirtle, Zamus.

Not sure about Sheik. Since I haven't played a good one, I'm currently trolling the Sheik forums and checking out what videos I can. I wouldn't be too dismissive of Sheik at the moment. He/she/it/potato has the same problem that Ness has at the moment; no one is playing he/she/it/potato at a high competitive level.

 

[Patsie]

The problem has ALWAYS been that people think their character is a bit better than they really are, mostly because they haven't faced high-quality players on the other side.

If you check all matchup threads against each other, very seldomly do they ever agree with each other. They're all way too subjective, leaning towards the character that the board is made for.

EDIT: For example, look at the Toon Link boards, they list every single character as even or less with the exception of MK/Rob/Squirtle. Yet TL never does well at tournaments despite (apparently) having the advantage in almost every matchup the game offers. Every board will think their character is better in most circumstances, and even when they admit a disadvantage it will be minimized. Ratings are overrated, npi, the most valuable part of matchups threads is understanding the metagame behind each character's moveset.

 

[NukeNess]

Well said Patsie, but a guy can hope for a check mark next to Snake cant he? lol Seriously tho if only snake was lighter i think the match up would be close to even.

 

[Brinzy]

The problem has ALWAYS been that people think their character is a bit better than they really are, mostly because they haven't faced high-quality players on the other side.

Exactly. Thank you for this. (Your whole post really, but mainly this.)

 

[NKCell]

The problem has ALWAYS been that people think their character is a bit better than they really are, mostly because they haven't faced high-quality players on the other side.

So, basically we should check out the matchup threads for every character and slap on about three extra disadvantage Xs?

But you are correct, sir.

 

[Tyr_03]

Seriously who really cares? Most matchup threads right now are complete BS. It's a waste of time to quibble over something so subjective anyway. Rather than arguing the finer points of a matchup you believe to be in your favour, why not give something actually useful to the community? If a matchup is good for one character or bad for another it will become obvious through tournament matches, not by just saying you think your main beats their main. Honestly, who has time for this nonsense?

 

[Uffe]

The problem has ALWAYS been that people think their character is a bit better than they really are, mostly because they haven't faced high-quality players on the other side.

That sounds almost like a person with hardly any idea about the game should go up against someone who knows a lot about the game. And if that's the case and the person with hardly any knowledge wins, does that mean the character they chose has an advantage? If that's teh case then skill really takes no part in the game and that match ups are just a waste of time.

Also, to keep the Ness vs Sonic foolproof, I pretty much gone up against a good Sonic player in a six minute match and I ended up getting six points in that six minutes while Sonic on the other hand never got any points. He only got me up to 207%. This happened because the barrage of PKF, the yo-yo, fairs, nairs, bairs and dairs. But than again it could just be because Sonic is very easy to read. Either way, Sonic's speed is his disadvantage and he really has no mindgames.

 

[PKSkyler]

I actually think Shiek maybe has an advantage over ness.....I got owned by a shiek pretty badly at OMG (mostly needles and the ftilt lock thingy)

But the pokemon triners I fought were easy wins really...vs DK I think ness actually has an advantage, PK Fire ownz that monkey badly, and PK Thunder and yo-yo can keep him away from you(other moves too, like fair and dash attack)
Watch out for a cargo hold spike though, cause Ness` recovery gets easily gimped by those...

and sonic...uh wtf?

 

[Fatmanonice]

That sounds almost like a person with hardly any idea about the game should go up against someone who knows a lot about the game. And if that's the case and the person with hardly any knowledge wins, does that mean the character they chose has an advantage? If that's teh case then skill really takes no part in the game and that match ups are just a waste of time.

Also, to keep the Ness vs Sonic foolproof, I pretty much gone up against a good Sonic player in a six minute match and I ended up getting six points in that six minutes while Sonic on the other hand never got any points. He only got me up to 207%. This happened because the barrage of PKF, the yo-yo, fairs, nairs, bairs and dairs. But than again it could just be because Sonic is very easy to read. Either way, Sonic's speed is his disadvantage and he really has no mindgames.

From what I've experienced playing against Sonic players, the best way to counter him is to simply jump. It pretty much forces him in the air and, because his aerial mobility is garbage, can easily be countered by most characters. This is one of the reasons why the Sonic vs Wario matchup is complete ****. I've also learned that you can grab him out of his rolls too but the timing is kind of difficult.

 

[Smashbros_7]

More. MORE!

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness should be neutral with Fox. I mean, Fox is really light, sucsceptipal to the back throw. His blaster got nerfed. He's a fast faller, so you can juggle him with aerials easily (and Up throw juggle too) killers are predicatable in Brawl (especially his forward smash) Fox got nerfed to the point of being equal to Ness.

I believe Falco and Ness should be neutral too, but I've never had a Falco vs Ness match.

 

[Earthbound360]

Fox is too easy to combo in the air, and his forward B recovery can be tailwhipped. Absorb lasers and cancel the magnet.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Hey EB, why don't you go the matchup chart topic and help (Link on first post) You can argue on the other matchups besides Zelda vs Ness

 

[Earthbound360]

Cuz I give up on that matchup chart. it's so wrong, I dont feel like fixing it. Its just ridiculous.

 

[Ref]

Seriously who really cares? Most matchup threads right now are complete BS. It's a waste of time to quibble over something so subjective anyway. Rather than arguing the finer points of a matchup you believe to be in your favour, why not give something actually useful to the community? If a matchup is good for one character or bad for another it will become obvious through tournament matches, not by just saying you think your main beats their main. Honestly, who has time for this nonsense?

Tyr raises an excellent point. So many of the match up discussions aren't what advantages or disadvantages characters have against each other. People are actually just trying to prove that their main is better than another.

A match up when someone has an advantage would be when one character can do something to that other character that they may not be able to counter.

Such as one disadvantage a character can have is being trapped in pk fire longer than others and have a harder time getting out than other characters.

However 1 advantage a character has on the other character does not make it have an advantage on the character. Usually because The other will have an advantage against that one as well. This is when you look to see if 1 advantage is better than the other.If you can't prove it settle for neutral.

Tourney results are the only Reasonable way to find out match ups. Half of the points some of these match up charts are discussing only have to do with MY Character is better than yours.

It's senseless. I agree with Tyr... He makes sense. If you do feel the Need to discuss this stuff, you should at least know the difference between an advantage and just saying my character is better than yours.

 

[Tenki]

Also, to keep the Ness vs Sonic foolproof, I pretty much gone up against a good Sonic player in a six minute match and I ended up getting six points in that six minutes while Sonic on the other hand never got any points. He only got me up to 207%. This happened because the barrage of PKF, the yo-yo, fairs, nairs, bairs and dairs. But than again it could just be because Sonic is very easy to read. Either way, Sonic's speed is his disadvantage and he really has no mindgames.

Your definition of good is skewed. What, did he have no control over his own dash? Did he run into your PKF without shielding? Did he run/spindash straight into yoyo? Fail to airdodge through a projected D-air spike after an up-B? Did he not use feints, cancel moves at all?

Hardly sounds "good" at all, unless you're comparing him relative to other people locally.

A friend of mine said he was the best among his friends with his Lucario and Ganondorf and wanted to try me when I used a certain character. I had had more experience with other people who had mained those characters, and on player patterns in general, so I 4stocked his Ganondorf (out of 5 stocks) and 3-stocked (out of 5) his Lucario. Did that mean that my character had an advantage over them? Heck no, especially not against Lucario. I just outplayed him and overwhelmed him with a character and style that he had never seen before.

Ness has the advnatage over Sonic. Dtilt+yo-yo=No spin
Ness also is NOT at a disadvanatage to Squirtle. Range.
I gave up on that chart. Its totally wrong and I dont think it's gonna be fixed the right way. The happy happyh cult at All is Brawl has a matchups discussion.

Of course, it's not like Sonic has aerial spin attacks or anything. No, he only uses ground spins.

From what I've experienced playing against Sonic players, the best way to counter him is to simply jump. It pretty much forces him in the air and, because his aerial mobility is garbage, can easily be countered by most characters. This is one of the reasons why the Sonic vs Wario matchup is complete ****. I've also learned that you can grab him out of his rolls too but the timing is kind of difficult.

It's not so much his aerial mobility that makes the Sonic vs Wario matchup so bad for Sonic, it's more of Wario's higher priority and (well timed/placed) bite.

==========

However, this is not to say that Ness doesn't really have an advantage over Sonic-

F-air and N-air give Sonic trouble because they are pretty high priority aerials, and PKT's ability to create disruptive walls of damage with the tail can make it a pain to try to attack Ness, depending on position. However, offstage, Sonic's spring [projectile] can be used to slow down PKT2 if dropped in front of it, or to stop the PKT1 altogether by blocking it. If Sonic is under Ness, he just has to aim himself and spring straight into the PKT1 before it reaches Ness.


PKF is escapable with some upward DI and spring, if not, spring by itself. It generally doesn't bother me unless I'm playing online and fail to pshield it.

Yoyo moves have certain openings (D-smash can be attacked through the air, and U-smash can be attacked/grabbed during the "round the world" motion) that can be taken advantage of, but they can stop grounded spindash, as previously stated. To a lesser extent, Ness's dash attack can be troublesome for Sonic, because of its disjointed hitbox, but it's less of a problem than F-air since it can be shieldgrabbed.

However, Simna pointed out in a discussion with me over this matchup, with correct DI, Ness shouldn't have to be in the situation that he's under the stage or 'ground level' off-stage.

 

[Uffe]

Your definition of good is skewed. What, did he have no control over his own dash? Did he run into your PKF without shielding? Did he run/spindash straight into yoyo? Fail to airdodge through a projected D-air spike after an up-B? Did he not use feints, cancel moves at all?

Hardly sounds "good" at all, unless you're comparing him relative to other people locally.

A friend of mine said he was the best among his friends with his Lucario and Ganondorf and wanted to try me when I used a certain character. I had had more experience with other people who had mained those characters, and on player patterns in general, so I 4stocked his Ganondorf (out of 5 stocks) and 3-stocked (out of 5) his Lucario. Did that mean that my character had an advantage over them? Heck no, especially not against Lucario. I just outplayed him and overwhelmed him with a character and style that he had never seen before.


Of course, it's not like Sonic has aerial spin attacks or anything. No, he only uses ground spins.



It's not so much his aerial mobility that makes the Sonic vs Wario matchup so bad for Sonic, it's more of Wario's higher priority and (well timed/placed) bite.

==========

However, this is not to say that Ness doesn't really have an advantage over Sonic-

F-air and N-air give Sonic trouble because they are pretty high priority aerials, and PKT's ability to create disruptive walls of damage with the tail can make it a pain to try to attack Ness, depending on position. However, offstage, Sonic's spring [projectile] can be used to slow down PKT2 if dropped in front of it, or to stop the PKT1 altogether by blocking it. If Sonic is under Ness, he just has to aim himself and spring straight into the PKT1 before it reaches Ness.


PKF is escapable with some upward DI and spring, if not, spring by itself. It generally doesn't bother me unless I'm playing online and fail to pshield it.

Yoyo moves have certain openings (D-smash can be attacked through the air, and U-smash can be attacked/grabbed during the "round the world" motion) that can be taken advantage of, but they can stop grounded spindash, as previously stated. To a lesser extent, Ness's dash attack can be troublesome for Sonic, because of its disjointed hitbox, but it's less of a problem than F-air since it can be shieldgrabbed.

However, Simna pointed out in a discussion with me over this matchup, with correct DI, Ness shouldn't have to be in the situation that he's under the stage or 'ground level' off-stage.

Well I'd like to point out that it's a common error for a player to run right into Ness' yo-yo. Also, Ness' yo-yo can stop Sonic's spin [grounded] and so yeah, Sonic is going to get hurt if he runs into it. Especially if the player, and most Sonic players do, use Sonic's spin attack. I also get a kick out of it when people try to approach me from behind and then get whacked by the yo-yo. Also fair and nair being able to counter Sonic, that's pretty much giving Ness a big advantage over Sonic if it out prioritizes Sonic's aerial game. Just so you know, we were on Halberd which would make Sonic's spring almost useless.

So while there I was pretty much staying under the platform. However when I was knocked off the stage and I was returning, he didn't use his spring. I've never seen any Sonic mainers do that and I can see it being useless unless it hits Ness' PKT which then would just make Ness die. I mean that is unless it'd hit the PKT and then Ness, then he's got another chance of returning. And yes, PKF is escapable. But due to rare Ness mainers a lot of people find themselves caught in it awaiting yet another punishment. Also, it's very vague when you wrote that Ness can be grabbed when he uses his fair. Is that approaching grounded, falling towards or jumping at? Because if Ness jumps at his opponent and uses his fair, he's got a better chance of getting behind the opponent. But yeah, most of the time if Ness uses his fair, he could possibly be grabbed. But if that's always the case, why not approach with some different?

Your last part on the discussion between you and Simna throws me off.

 

[Patsie]

That sounds almost like a person with hardly any idea about the game should go up against someone who knows a lot about the game. And if that's the case and the person with hardly any knowledge wins, does that mean the character they chose has an advantage? If that's teh case then skill really takes no part in the game and that match ups are just a waste of time.

I really can't understand what this means, can you clarify?

 

[IvanEva]

Ness currently has over 20 disadvantages. We need to change that.

That's a terrible attitude going in. You should have more of a mindset of "Is that correct? Why is that? If not, what is the correct outcome?". It's character fanboyism that makes making a match-up chart so difficult.

The chart will be totally wrong so long as one person who sporadically visits is doing slow updates. At the very least, we should have our own full matchup thread completed.

Totally wrong? Most of it seems to be correct, actually. Well, "correct". For all but the totally obvious ones, match-ups tend to be largely opinion. In MY opinion character X has an advantage against character Y in MY chart.

Yes, every character should have their own match-up thread. That's why I try to keep one for each character in the first post of my chart thread. However, there are sometimes several per character and worse yet a lot of the time they're more biased than Fox News. You've seen the Ness one, right? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176992 Zelda as one of Ness' easiest match-ups? Even a starving kid in Somalia that's half blind from malnutrition can tell that that's not right.

The problem has ALWAYS been that people think their character is a bit better than they really are, mostly because they haven't faced high-quality players on the other side.

If you check all matchup threads against each other, very seldomly do they ever agree with each other. They're all way too subjective, leaning towards the character that the board is made for.

Don't I know it. Sometimes I regret starting my match-up chart (although I did make it more for myself to keep track of things than anything else) because this is the absolute problem that plagues match-up discussions.

Seriously who really cares? Most matchup threads right now are complete BS. It's a waste of time to quibble over something so subjective anyway. Rather than arguing the finer points of a matchup you believe to be in your favour, why not give something actually useful to the community? If a matchup is good for one character or bad for another it will become obvious through tournament matches, not by just saying you think your main beats their main. Honestly, who has time for this nonsense?

You care if you're posting on this thread, let alone on Smash Boards. The idea isn't to be 'fighting' over which side is right, but rather sharing information and experiences so that people can come to a consensus on how something goes. I know, it rarely happens that way.

What exactly can somebody give that's "actually useful to the community"?

Cuz I give up on that matchup chart. it's so wrong, I dont feel like fixing it. Its just ridiculous.

Is it "so wrong" and only you can "fix it" or are you the wrong one and your match-up opinions are ill-founded? How would you be able to "prove" which one of us is correct regarding any match-up? The best you can do is to either make your own chart or match-up thread. I'm just guessing here, but based on your user name, avatar and little Brawl character symbol, what you find "wrong" with it is that some of the Mother characters are made to seem crappier than they "really are", right?

 

[Tenki]

Well I'd like to point out that it's a common error for a player to run right into Ness' yo-yo. Also, Ness' yo-yo can stop Sonic's spin [grounded] and so yeah, Sonic is going to get hurt if he runs into it. Especially if the player, and most Sonic players do, use Sonic's spin attack. I also get a kick out of it when people try to approach me from behind and then get whacked by the yo-yo. Also fair and nair being able to counter Sonic, that's pretty much giving Ness a big advantage over Sonic if it out prioritizes Sonic's aerial game. Just so you know, we were on Halberd which would make Sonic's spring almost useless.

So while there I was pretty much staying under the platform. However when I was knocked off the stage and I was returning, he didn't use his spring. I've never seen any Sonic mainers do that and I can see it being useless unless it hits Ness' PKT which then would just make Ness die. I mean that is unless it'd hit the PKT and then Ness, then he's got another chance of returning. And yes, PKF is escapable. But due to rare Ness mainers a lot of people find themselves caught in it awaiting yet another punishment. Also, it's very vague when you wrote that Ness can be grabbed when he uses his fair. Is that approaching grounded, falling towards or jumping at? Because if Ness jumps at his opponent and uses his fair, he's got a better chance of getting behind the opponent. But yeah, most of the time if Ness uses his fair, he could possibly be grabbed. But if that's always the case, why not approach with some different?

Your last part on the discussion between you and Simna throws me off.

Paragraph 1:
I think this goes to show that the Sonic player you were playing against didn't know how to control or cancel his spins.

=.=;

Keep in mind that Sonic's ground game consists of feints and grabs- with a strong pummel/U-throw and D-throw for techchase setups, whiffed moves can hurt. You'll want to keep in mind which of Ness's moves can be grabbed when missed, because once the momentum starts, you'll take at least 20-30 damage before you have an opening to try to reverse it.

I played with Simna over wifi and got to see an imperfect glimpse of his Ness. We talked about the gimp situations, and he said that the spring vs recovery situations I noted depended on situations where Ness was either under the stage or about "ground level" but off-stage, and that being knocked down to those areas could be avoided through proper DI.

Paragraph 2:
Don't rely on people's inexperience for matchup. I can say the same about people not expecting an ASC>grab with Sonic, but in a match where both players are aware of moves, PKF is escapable.

Also, I believe I said that dash attack gives similar effect to F-air, except it (dash attack) can be shieldgrabbed.

 

[Brinzy]

Totally wrong? Most of it seems to be correct, actually. Well, "correct". For all but the totally obvious ones, match-ups tend to be largely opinion. In MY opinion character X has an advantage against character Y in MY chart.

Yes, every character should have their own match-up thread. That's why I try to keep one for each character in the first post of my chart thread. However, there are sometimes several per character and worse yet a lot of the time they're more biased than Fox News. You've seen the Ness one, right? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176992 Zelda as one of Ness' easiest match-ups? Even a starving kid in Somalia that's half blind from malnutrition can tell that that's not right.

See, that's the thing. People who know these characters inside out give you this information, and you still ultimately decide based off of your opinion. Again, I can understand WHY you'd do it, but isn't that a hindrance in itself? I take back the whole "totally wrong" thing, as it isn't totally wrong... but rather, we need to find something that takes things a step further so we can actually get it even more accurate. I'm sure you know that the best way to do this is to take each character, get that character's strong points from his/her/its homeboard, go to the other board, debate said points, acknowledge what the other character can do and where their strengths lie, and see fights in action. Most people are not willing to do this.

Also, believe me, I was one of the few here who flat out rejected that thread. People with that attitude are why match-ups a pain in the ***.

 

[Uffe]

I really can't understand what this means, can you clarify?

Hm. Wow. I don't know how I made this sort of contradiction. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that if a casual player chose a character like Ness and defeated a pro who uses Sonic, then that would prove that the match-ups are worth making and that the character [Ness] does in fact have an advantage. And what I meant to say at that last phrase was that if the game takes no skill then learning techniques is a waste of time. Even if that is the case, then match-ups, again are worth making. Sorry for that mishap.

@ Tenki: It's not really that the person using Sonic purposely runs into an open attack. I know a lot of players run into Ness' yo-yo as I stated before. The thing is is that if they decide to use Sonic's spin attack and get in range, Ness can use his yo-yo to stop Sonic. Simple as that. You'll have to tell me what you mean by feints. And if Sonic is going to rely on grabs, good luck. Grabbing your opponent isn't exactly the easiest thing to do in the game. In my experience I've come across many Sonic players, and I know most people say WiFi doesn't count because of "lag". Lag isn't always present anyway. However whenever I came across these Sonic players I would always win against them.

I'd also like to point out that if cancels, DI and other stuff are necessary in a match-up, then a person who knows nothing about canceling and DI makes them at even more of a disadvantage. Oh and I hope you don't think I'm taking sides just because I main Ness.

 

[Nestec]

I thought grabbing was actually pretty easy in this game... o.O?

 

[Brinzy]

It is. That's why posts like "Don't get grabbed" are basically common knowledge and aren't really helping with anything. It's virtually impossible to NOT get grabbed at all, no matter who you use.

 

[Uffe]

Apparently I'm doing something wrong to have gotten grabbed that much. That had to be the crappiest I've ever done.

 

[Tenki]

yeah... you ... missed yoyos. and I grabbed them.


`.` also, I powershield.

and pressure.

 

[Uffe]

Powershielding isn't something I do so often. As you can see I spotdodge more than I should. >< I also need to be less nervous. It's sad that when someone wants to play me I get really nervous, but when it's someone elses friend who joins the game I'm not nervous at all.

 

[Crystanium]

Powershielding isn't something I do so often. As you can see I spotdodge more than I should. >< I also need to be less nervous. It's sad that when someone wants to play me I get really nervous, but when it's someone elses friend who joins the game I'm not nervous at all.

Fear is what you want to put into your opponent. It messes with them and makes them lose their confidence in winning. For example, I've been winning just about every match in Basic Brawl. Everyone has left. I'm so frightening to my opponents that one has left without even brawling with me. Hehe. (I'm joking about that one. Well, except for the part where the person left. There was probably another reason.)

 

[Tenki]

But than again it could just be because Sonic is very easy to read. Either way, Sonic's speed is his disadvantage and he really has no mindgames.

ohya, since we've actually played now and I guess both of us have sort of an understanding of how certain strategies work out:

- the speed is a disadvantage online, sometimes. ~.~; I'd run in and predict a yoyo and try to do a sliding (power)shield but get hit instead, but as you saw, it's not so much of a disadvantage when the player knows how to control it (saw the baited yoyo's that got grabbed/spindashcombo'd? ;D)
- you saw the mindgames, feints, and cancels.
- Also, pressure and momentum (player based, not so much character-based. Maybe.)

In the PM's you mentioned that it looked like I was outprioritizing your aerials, but I really wasn't. I was attacking either during the 'lower priority'/'misslag' on your aerials or attacking in a direction that your attack box wasn't covering. However, there were many times when I wouldn't and you'd outprioritize me instead.

And I also learned after a bit that a well-timed spindash can attack in between the multiple 'sparks' on Ness's dash attack.

Really, I think I overwhelmed you with pressure because you may never have seen Sonic played before whereas I had experience fighting a competent Ness (Simna, but I believe his main game of PKT attacks, which was still amazing, was severely gimped by lag), but I still believe that the matchup may be slightly in Ness's favor, if you commit to a more defensive rather than offensive playstyle and are familiar with Sonic's moves/how to beat them.

 

[Uffe]

ohya, since we've actually played now and I guess both of us have sort of an understanding of how certain strategies work out:

- the speed is a disadvantage online, sometimes. ~.~; I'd run in and predict a yoyo and try to do a sliding (power)shield but get hit instead, but as you saw, it's not so much of a disadvantage when the player knows how to control it (saw the baited yoyo's that got grabbed/spindashcombo'd? ;D)
- you saw the mindgames, feints, and cancels.
- Also, pressure and momentum (player based, not so much character-based. Maybe.)

In the PM's you mentioned that it looked like I was outprioritizing your aerials, but I really wasn't. I was attacking either during the 'lower priority'/'misslag' on your aerials or attacking in a direction that your attack box wasn't covering. However, there were many times when I wouldn't and you'd outprioritize me instead.

And I also learned after a bit that a well-timed spindash can attack in between the multiple 'sparks' on Ness's dash attack.

Really, I think I overwhelmed you with pressure because you may never have seen Sonic played before whereas I had experience fighting a competent Ness (Simna, but I believe his main game of PKT attacks, which was still amazing, was severely gimped by lag), but I still believe that the matchup may be slightly in Ness's favor, if you commit to a more defensive rather than offensive playstyle and are familiar with Sonic's moves/how to beat them.

Well that battle pretty much changed my mind about Sonic in Brawl. I was just thinking that tonight, too. I remember writing that and I don't know whether or not I should regret that. Sonic in fact does have mind games, you just know how to use it and you did it. Should we just say Ness vs Sonic is neutral then?

 

[Jtails]

I think wolf is a really hard match up for ness cause its really hard to get in. wolfs back air spacing, then d-smash or f-smash. you need to Perfect shield if not your taking unnecessary damage. one + is absorb the shot. which most wolf users do out of habit.

Marth is another tough one because of his overall spacing and priority. that infinite grab can be really annoying too if players are willing to go that far for the win. his edge game is bad for ness too =/

MK is another tough one. if they stay close and wait for you to recover, as soon as the pk thunder comes out your are getting gimped. he also limits Ness' aerial game.

DDD and DK i find are good match ups. as long as ness stays close. just watch out for u-tilt and d-smashes.
backthrow when they come back works well if you dont deteriorate it. just keep spacing with them.

if anyone agrees or disagrees please let me know.

 

[Earthbound360]

I agree with jtails 100%

 

[thesage]

Why do you care about the matchup chart? Nobody good actually references it. Smashbros 8 go to a tournament and stop just posting on swf.