Ness and Lucas aren't screwed now.

[salaboB]

QED

By admitting that it is capable for a human to get out of, you admit that the technique has a counter.

Demonstrate it's the person escaping and not the user screwing up.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

QED

Not banned.

It's outside of human execution time though. I recall being told that anything that can't be done consistently by a human is impractical in fighting games (1-frame button sequences, etc.)

 

[orintemple]

Well, for the really bad ones, we can ban them, like we did the IC infinite. Or we could at least limit them to like 3 or something (like the De3 chain grab is being limited to 3 grabs in many tournaments). Ness and Lucas were well off without this (I was thinking they were high or top tier material, in all honesty),, so this can actually balance them out. Now to further balance Snake, Toon Link, Falco, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Marth, and Fox...

Defiintely another point for Heavy Brawl! >_>

This is a little beyond balance I think XD

I agree those others you mentioned need something against them too, except Fox... FOX!?
I realize this may SEEM a little biased from a Fox main to say he doesn't need any toning down but.. FOX?! Really?!

Fox isn't that good, he will be mid tier most likely. I am not sure what makes you think he is so godly.

Also, how is it ALMOST infinite. How can one get out of this, I see no way. The Marth one is just stupid. Maybe the others can be dealt with, but the ones that are truly infinite need bannage, like Marth's.

 

[munkus beaver]

Demonstrate it's the person escaping and not the user screwing up.

I'm not the one who made such claims.

 

[Cerozero]

There is no real reason this should be banned it's just unfortunate this kind of oversight made it to the final product. You could say that fooling around too much with the SSB engine like brawl has and something like this was bound to happen. Melee is the best balance of everything Smash.

Also I play Ness and something like this wont keep me from playing him.

 

[Mokai]

I find it strange how much apathy this issue seems to be generating. It reminds me of a real world situation in which one country is stricken with sickness and poverty. All the other countries look over and declare "That's horrible, it's totally wrong. I hate to see what's happening, but as long as it doesn't effect me I just don't care." and make no effort to offer relief.

I completely sympathize with NESSBOUNDER, I can feel his frustration in his posts. Much like myself, Ness is likely much more than a Smash Brothers character to him. I grew up on Earthbound. I played through it multiple times. When I fist played Smash Brothers 64 and discovered Ness I was filled with a feeling of euphoria and utter WTFness. There he was, in his 3D glory, a character I had known, and loved for several years and never expected to see again. That love continues to this day.

My argument on this matter has nothing to do with the technical aspects of Brawl; that's already been argued to heck and back and it will likely continue regardless. Some of you may choose to simply jump from main to main depending on whoever happens to be "Top Tier" at the time, but there's a large amount of us who choose our characters based on emotional ties to them.

It's those people with emotional ties I'm making an attempt to appeal to: It's not your character this time, but it could be your character next. That's right, perhaps you can't find it in your heart to give two hoots about Ness and Lucas players, but who knows what character-breaking bug is going to be found next? I strongly encourage the community to look at this issue objectively; look at it as if Ness or Lucas were your own and try to find a reasonable compromise to the situation.

To make the long story short (too late), the Smash Brothers scene is a community whether you choose to see it as such or not. While in-game we're competitive and against each other, outside of Brawl we're all people who have a common love for a wonderful game series. It's time we respect each other. It's time we give a ****.


.... Sorry for the rambling. A cookie to those who actually made it all the way through. ^^;

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It makes two characters utterly unplayable. And not unplayable in a bad/good character sense, just downright unplayable.

That's reason enough to ban it in my eyes.

And Mokai, thank you for your support. For me, it's not so much an emotional attachment to the characters (although that is a factor) more than how extremely wasteful it is to lose two perfectly good fighters and player options to something so trivial as this.

 

[dr0go]

i think the same thing as NESSBOUNDER.i have tested and it is almost impossible to get out.What would you prefer, ban a simple game error(**** sakurai) or render 2 good characters that many people use unplayable,useless,make them garbage,trash,crap,inferior etc.?
BAN IT!!!!

BTW CAN WOLF DO IT TOO?

 

[Mokai]

For me, it's not so much an emotional attachment to the characters (although that is a factor) more than how extremely wasteful it is to lose two perfectly good fighters and player options to something so trivial as this.

Ah. I shouldn't have spoken for you then, I'm really sorry. ^^;

I wish it were trivial though. I can understand both side's arguements, they're both very valid points. The part the concerns me is how the side not in favor of banning such tactics seems utterly unwilling to even consider talking about a solution (if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me! ^^; ). I'd like to say a compromise is very possible but that would require willingness work together on both ends.

 

[Levitas]

This is an unescapable technique. Absolutely ********.

Unintentional or not, Nintendo has been crapping on Earthbound for too long. Who tested this game? a five year old?

 

[orintemple]

Ah. I shouldn't have spoken for you then, I'm really sorry. ^^;

I wish it were trivial though. I can understand both side's arguements, they're both very valid points. The part the concerns me is how the side not in favor of banning such tactics seems utterly unwilling to even consider talking about a solution (if I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me! ^^; ). I'd like to say a compromise is very possible but that would require willingness work together on both ends.

As far as a comprimise, and a very possible conclusion, I would say that the most likely outcome would be the banning of the truly infinite ones, like Marth's and the others of that calibur, but keep the lesser ones that glide across the stage a lot and eventually end unbanned.

 

[Ztarfish]

No wolf cannot do it, i should know xD
I strongly believe that it should be banned outright. However practically banning it is nearly impossible because the people who abuse it will just overlook it, the people that are apathetic will just overlook it, and the lone Ness/Lucas player will be looked over as crying wolf.

Worst situation ever.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

As far as a comprimise, and a very possible conclusion, I would say that the most likely outcome would be the banning of the truly infinite ones, like Marth's and the others of that calibur, but keep the lesser ones that glide across the stage a lot and eventually end unbanned.

This is all we're asking for! The ones that aren't truly infinites are not the problem. We can live with those!

 

[Ztarfish]

What else is an infinite aside from what's under discussion?
D3's Infinite comes to mind but i thought it decayed after a while?

 

[orintemple]

This is all we're asking for! The ones that aren't truly infinites are not the problem. We can live with those!

Well I am pulling for you, man. I would like to see what I just said be the standard, and I feel like it has a good chance. There were things banned in Melee, like infinite wallshines, so why not ban something in Brawl. Just like wallshines only applied to Fox, this baning would reall only apply to the 4-5 characters that can do the true infinite anyway.


D3's infinite I bet will also be banned. I am going to guess that all wall infinites will be banned, and any truly infinite(not the ones that are just hard to get out of even if they go on forever if you are not good enough to get out) grabs. Either that or they will be capped, so one can only do it a certain amount of times before they must let go.

What i wonder about is how banning really works, is it just up to the tourney director, or is it something that SBR does universally to be the generally accepted standard?

 

[Man_With_Thooo]

Just think about it. Ness and Lucas are two very unique and popular characters. Nobody else in the game plays like them. If this stupid CG isn't banned, Lucas and Ness will end up being unplayable, eliminating two very unique characters from the roster and making the competitive scene less original. Besides, the Mother boys have many character-specific ATs which can't be done by anybody else. Other than that, not banning this bug will put to waste all the effort people put in to master these characters. It's only logical to ban this.

 

[AlexX]

I know all you guys want it banned, but please help an ignorant member here:
How can they ban it? How would a ban on the technique be any easier to enforce than a ban on the IC's chaingrab on everybody?

Rest assured I'm not asking this because I want to use it (I use Lucas frequently and Ike's grabs are useless in my eyes), but I don't understand what makes it easier to enforce.

Unintentional or not, Nintendo has been crapping on Earthbound for too long.

No offense, but that's a pretty indignant statment. While I agree those of us outside Japan have been shafted from getting two of the installments of a series I'll admit I love, it's hard to blame them for an honest mistake. Besides, it took us this long to discover it for ourselves, so it makes sense they wouldn't have noticed it in testing.

 

[Fletch]

What else is an infinite aside from what's under discussion?
D3's Infinite comes to mind but i thought it decayed after a while?

It decays, but you can tap A in between at higher percentages to keep infinites, I believe it works on Mario, Samus, Luigi, Bowser, and DK.

 

[Azuro]

Alex is right. If we're not going to ban IC's chaingrab...why ban this? It makes no sense to do so.

 

[AsherXII]

this would only bother me if EVERYONE i played chain grabbed. fortunately, a very small % of people i come across seem to chain grab, which I'm thankful for. this news is somewhat unsettling, but it doesn't really strike me as that big of a deal for now. (this is just from my experience) oh, and I use Lucas.

although, to be honest, and i mean this in the most respectful way possible. I personally dislike chain grabbing. I feel that it gives certain characters unfair advantages over other characters.
It wouldn't be so bad if ever character were equally capable of chain grabbing, but even then, people would just be running around and constantly using that over and over XD. Something like that doesn't seem that great or fun to me.

I don't mind chain grabbing if people use it in moderation. It only bothers me if someone goes overboard with it.

 

[orintemple]

I know all you guys want it banned, but please help an ignorant member here:
How can they ban it? How would a ban on the technique be any easier to enforce than a ban on the IC's chaingrab on everybody?

Rest assured I'm not asking this because I want to use it (I use Lucas frequently and Ike's grabs are useless in my eyes), but I don't understand what makes it easier to enforce.

No offense, but that's a pretty indignant statment. While I agree those of us outside Japan have been shafted from getting two of the installments of a series I'll admit I love, it's hard to blame them for an honest mistake. Besides, it took us this long to discover it for ourselves, so it makes sense they wouldn't have noticed it in testing.

It isn't particularly EASIER to enforce, but I don't recall the ICs infinite ever being decided upon to not be banned. Like I said before, I don't know how banning works exactly, but I wouldn't expect the community to get a general concensus about it(be it through the SBR or just general community) until the first tier list comes out at the earliest.

 

[salaboB]

I'm not the one who made such claims.

The person you quoted didn't say either way either, but you were more than ready to jump on that as evidence for your position.

 

[rob1out]

Ice climber's chain grab is considerably tougher than this chain grab.. All this requires to do is jab. and when they release. grab again. There is little skill in this, and is more accurately described as an exploit.

Definately not on par with the IC grab.

In order to save these two characters from going to the lowest tier, it should be banned.

 

[Looper]

doesn't matter

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Alex is right. If we're not going to ban IC's chaingrab...why ban this? It makes no sense to do so.

The ice climber's infinites take skill and they can't perform them unless they're together. It's really not that hard to separate the ice climbers, and often if they grab you early, you can break out of the hold before Nana gets into position.

This chain grab on Ness and Lucas though, can be done at any time, anywhere and under any condition. It also takes no skill to use, just repeated mashing of the Z button and the occasional step forwards.

 

[Man_With_Thooo]

Alex is right. If we're not going to ban IC's chaingrab...why ban this? It makes no sense to do so.

Because IC's chaingrab only works with IC, so players will only really have to worry about it when playing against an IC.

In this case, though, Ness and Lucas players will have to avoid grabs will fighting pretty much any character.

Besides, the fact that IC can chain grab almost anyone gives every character an unfair advantage.

In this case, however, only Ness and Lucas are given an unfair advantage. Against everyone. It's unfair. Seriously.

 

[Cliche-Guevara]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lag after being released from a grab some set value in the games code?
And if it is, who thought it was ok that Ness & Lucas had much higher values than the rest of the cast...


Something is just terribly wrong about someone who breaks from a grab having to wait longer than the one who's grab was just broken...

 

[DarkKnight077]

No offense, but that's a pretty indignant statment. While I agree those of us outside Japan have been shafted from getting two of the installments of a series I'll admit I love, it's hard to blame them for an honest mistake. Besides, it took us this long to discover it for ourselves, so it makes sense they wouldn't have noticed it in testing.

Actually it's true.

Nintendo kind of mocks that they don't have an Earthbound series.

They don't realize that it isn't always about Mario and Link.

F-Zero hasn't been big, Metroid has finally gained some popularity.

Basically Nintendo ignores the other franchises because they just want to ***** out the main guy and Link.

Why do you think both Zelda and Mario always the front cover of Nintendo?

Because the other series don't matter to them.

 

[Ztarfish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lag after being released from a grab some set value in the games code?
And if it is, who thought it was ok that Ness & Lucas had much higher values than the rest of the cast...


Something is just terribly wrong about someone who breaks from a grab having to wait longer than the one who's grab was just broken...

Tell that to the idiot who programmed it, I'm sure he'll have a brilliant response.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the lag after being released from a grab some set value in the games code?
And if it is, who thought it was ok that Ness & Lucas had much higher values than the rest of the cast...


Something is just terribly wrong about someone who breaks from a grab having to wait longer than the one who's grab was just broken...

My guess is that they wanted to add a small weakness to Ness and lucas to compensate for their buffs/strengths. However, I very much doubt that an exploit like this was intended, just negative frame data from a grab release.

 

[-Ran]

My guess is someone thought the animation was cool, left it in, and never bothered to really compare the differences. =p

 

[salaboB]

My guess is that they wanted to add a small weakness to Ness and lucas to compensate for their buffs/strengths. However, I very much doubt that an exploit like this was intended, just negative frame data from a grab release.

I'd guess it's more they had a certain animation they wanted them to go through, and didn't think of it much beyond that -- it's really not THAT much of a balancing point on characters: "To weaken them slightly, if they break out of a grab, they take longer to recover by a couple frames."

Edit: I see I was beaten to the punch!

 

[FrostByte]

Maybe that's why Lucas' jab comes out on the first frame?

 

[munkus beaver]

The person you quoted didn't say either way either.

Actually he did, chief.

, but you were more than ready to jump on that as evidence for your position

I was pointing out the logical implications of his statement.


Sheesh, some of you people need to brush up on the reading comprehension gauge.

 

[AlexX]

Actually it's true.

Nintendo kind of mocks that they don't have an Earthbound series.

They don't realize that it isn't always about Mario and Link.

But the Mother series has not been shafted in terms of representation in Brawl. 2 characters and 2 stages for a series with 3 total installments, only one of which left Japan, is pretty impressive. Even Fire Emblem, which has almost as many installments as the Zelda series, has only 2 characters and 1 stage to represent it. It doesn't make sense that they'd put a glitch like this in the game just to shaft them.

Besides, all your complaints should be with NoA for being reluctant to bring them over, not Nintendo as a whole. The actual development of the games doesn't have much to do with Nintendo itself aside from personal relations of the game's developers.

F-Zero hasn't been big, Metroid has finally gained some popularity.

So why aren't their fans complaining? And actually, yes, F-Zero does have a decent following.

Basically Nintendo ignores the other franchises because they just want to ***** out the main guy and Link.

Again: you're placing the blame where it doesn't belong.

Why do you think both Zelda and Mario always the front cover of Nintendo?

Because the other series don't matter to them.

Wrong, it's because they're the most popular franchises for the company and earn the most money. The Mother series is indeed popular, but cult followings aren't as notable compared to the overall crowd. Stop blaming Nintendo for giving focus to what is inarguably the most popular franchises.

Yes, we in the Mother fandom been screwed out of the franchise for the most part, but we're by far not the only ones to suffer from it.

EDIT: Wow, half my post didn't make any sense... I guess it just goes to show you what happens when you try to debate at 2 AM...

 

[Mokai]

We're steering a bit off topic here. Let's try to stay on the right track.

 

[Doom Squirrel]

(This is a repost of what I posted on the thread in the Lucas forum)

I think that this tactic should be banned.

Now before you start replying, listen to this. Why is stalling banned? As Sonic, I could attack my opponent enough to get a percentage lead, then jump under the stage and constantly neutral B over and over again until the time runs out and I win. Almost no other character can counter this (except ROB and a few others), so Sonic now has the advantage against almost every character in the game. But this is banned because, I assume, it makes the game less competitive. The game would be about who could score the first hit, and then running away until the time ran out. It would completely destroy whatever potential there was for Brawl to be competitive. This is also an enforceable ban. You see sonic constantly using his homing attack under a stage? Disqualification. It's that simple.

Now lets compare Sonic's stalling tactic to the infinite grab on Ness and Lucas. It destroys whatever competitive potential that Ness and Lucas. This tactic is so easy that pretty much anyone, when faced with a match against the mother boys, could pick Marth, constantly grab until Ness/Lucas is at a killable percent, and then fsmash. It would be an easy win for the marth player (who might not even main Marth) even though he may be the less skilled out of the two players. However, a ban on this tactic, like Sonic's stall, is easily enforceable. There just needs to be a rule that says "You cannot grab Ness and Lucas again immediately after they escape from a grab". This would ban the infinity aspect of the technique, but still keep its other less game-breaking properties such as attacking out of it. It would make it so that they were slightly worse than before this tactic was known, but at least they are playable.

I would like to say that I did not believe Wobbling should have been banned from melee. It didn't seem like a gamebreaking tactic that it was fessed up to be. In tournaments where it was allowed, the top 8 finishers were not all Ice Climbers. There were plenty of ways to avoid this: don't get grabbed, kill nana off, etc. But Brawl is a different game where grabbing is much more feasible, with dashing sheild grabs and less sheild stun. Ness and Lucas will eventually be grabbed and be infinited in a match.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I agree with this ^

Basically, if we ban the infinite but not the less game breaking tactics such as attacking out of it, Ness and Lucas will still have bad matchups vs. characters that could do someone who can get a good attack out of it, but it won't make them unplayable. To ban attacking out of it would be unenforceable, because it's too easy to do accidentally, and would require a ban on grabs (which is ********).

It doesn't truly effect me if the ban the infinite or not, since neither of the characters I play can infinite Ness or Lucas anyway. But I would like to see them playable.

 

[Tetsuro]

I agree with Doom Squirrel, the infinite grab takes out any skill or competitive spirit when fighting Ness or Lucas. The worst part is, not only does this not take skill, it doesn't even take a semi-competent player to do this. One could literally teach someone who has never played a video game to just push one button repeatedly with a set rhythm.

It is due to that fact that I believe the infinites should be banned.

 

[Psychoace]

I think this will just end up being another wobbling type thing. Some places will ban it some won't. Life moves on.