Ness after 1.0.4 patch

[neomadgic]

I'm surprised that I couldn't find a topic for this. What have we learned about the patch so far?

The most obvious is that our dthrow has been nerfed. Doing 9% before to now only doing 7%.

Any other changes? Someone mentioned that our pk fire does more damage, but reduced hit boxes. But I can't confirm that.

 

[Hukuzo]

PK Thunder, both the attack on its own and PKT2 or Cannonball or whatever you call it, seem to have severely less knockback now.

 

[Uffe]

Disregard this. I thought I found something.

 

[Zemaskedman]

You are wrong on the forward smash and the downsmash, the only thing I noticed is the down throw. F-smash always had the tipper.

 

[Unkie Mike]

Would love to see some info on his custom moves. PK Freeze and Spirit Bomb (green PK Thunder thing) need some buffs.

Got up-aired off the stage by a Zelda at 90-100% or so, is this normal? Haven't fought enough decent Zeldas to know for sure, but it sure surprised me.

 

[Noa.]

Ness's fsmash had a tipper hitbox before this update. In fact the damage scales upward with the point at which you hit them with the bat.

 

[Pryze]

PK Thunder, both the attack on its own and PKT2 or Cannonball or whatever you call it, seem to have severely less knockback now.

Has this been confirmed? Because I just KO'd a Sonic at ~40ish percent, doesn't seem much lower to me.

 

[Uffe]

I've never seen the tipper. I remember that was the first thing I tried when I got Ness. I felt like there wasn't a tipper. If you guys say it was there, then it must be true.

 

[Noa.]

I would practice hitting the sandbag with the tipper hitbox before my matches started. Fully charged fmash does anywhere from like 26 to 31 at the very very tip.

 

[Snerp]

PKT is the same afaik. Bat has always had a sweetspot.

 

[Vyledust]

Maybe it is me, but it seems like pk fire is a bit more reluctant to come out when needed. Had a few misfires.

 

[Uffe]

EDIT: Corrections

Luco, Shaky, MegaMarioMan9, 291C, and I decided to figure out the changes with Ness v.1.0.4. I'll color code the before and after. Knock back wasn't recorded.

Dash Attack - 10% All Sparks; 4% Last remaining Spark.
Jab - 2-2% - 4%

Up Tilt - 7%
Forward Tilt - 9% (10% diagonally up and down)
Down Tilt - 4%

Up Smash - 9% Uncharged; 12% Charged
Up Smash Behind - 13% Uncharged; 18% Charged (9% Uncharged; 12% Charged)
Forward Smash - 18% Reg. Uncharged; 25% Reg. Charged, 22% Tipped Uncharged; 30-31% Tipped Charged
Down Smash - 15-16% Uncharged; 18% Charged (12% Uncharged; 16% Charged)
Down Smash Front - 12% Uncharged; 15% Charged (12% Uncharged; 16% Charge Opponent in front of you.)

Up Air - 13%
Forward Air - 7%
Neutral Air - 11%
Down Air - 12% Sweet Spot; 10% Sour Spot

Up Throw - 10%
Forward Throw - 11%
Back Throw - 9%
Down Throw - 9% (7%, Said to be easier to follow up with forward air. Shaky heard this from NAKAT. Lesser PK Fire damage on Mr. Game & Watch has been fixed.)

PK Thunder - 8%
PK Thunder Tail - +1%
PK Thunder 2 - 25% Close; 21% Far
PK Fire - +2%
PK Flash - 37% Charged

 

[Pryze]

And thus, Ness' USmash gets even worse than it already was.

Edit: Nvm, I misread

 

[Noa.]

Interesting. Confirmed nerfs on his dsmash and usmash. Thankfully they're not too essential to Ness's gameplan.

 

[Uffe]

Interesting. Confirmed nerfs on his dsmash and usmash. Thankfully they're not too essential to Ness's gameplan.

Actually, they're good. Well, they were before being nerfed. I've killed quite a few with his d-smash.

 

[Pryze]

Actually, they're good. Well, they were before being nerfed. I've killed quite a few with his d-smash.

His D-Smash is still good for punishing rolls and edge guarding, they just do less damage.

 

[Uffe]

His D-Smash is still good for punishing rolls and edge guarding, they just do less damage.

If the knock back remains, that's all I care about.

 

[Earthbound360]

Why does Nintendo hate this character? -_-

 

[Noa.]

I just think that in comparison to the nerfs that other good characters like yoshi, sheik, and Rosalina received, Ness is pretty well off.

 

[Earthbound360]

I just think that in comparison to the nerfs that other good characters like yoshi, sheik, and Rosalina received, Ness is pretty well off.

Except that he didn't need to be nerfed at all though. He wasn't even on the same level as those characters. It's like there's some sort of law within Nintendo that Ness can NOT be a good character.

 

[Luco]

Except that he didn't need to be nerfed at all though. He wasn't even on the same level as those characters. It's like there's some sort of law within Nintendo that Ness can NOT be a good character.

Actually, Ness is looking to be an even more likely candidate for top tier than he was before. The nerf is kinda sad on it's own, but take it in context. Sheik and Rosalina, two of his worst match-ups, have been neutered and significantly nerfed (respectively). Ness likely has an even more reliable combo game than before and he still has all of his normal kill moves (Bair, Uair, Bthrow, etc etc). Ness is almost definitely top 10 now. Shaya's initial impressions post-patch actually put him at no. 3 on the list.

Ness is godlike this iteration, and if you don't see it it's because you're not looking at the broader picture, which is that everyone around him has taken serious blows to the gut and he's one of the ones left standing relatively unharmed.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Hmm... Is there a possibility that Ness' PSI Magnet has changed? In other words, if it restores more/less health from certain attacks, magnet cancelling is gone/changed somehow, etc. Unless this has already been figured out, but I'm just curious.

 

[Tikao]

this is actually pretty great for Ness, a lot of good charakters got nerfed (specially rosaluma) while Ness remains nearly the same (usmash/dsmash are more like a mixup, and the 2% less on dthrow is way better than most other toptier charakters got smited with). this Patch is actually pretty great for Ness

I still dislike the idea of those patches, a meta has to evolve first, this is no game where constantly patching will be a good thing, everything that's nice and not intended (looking at you DACUS) will be removed, even if it was a good aspect

Let's hope those patches will stop with the release of the WiiU version, or else Ness will be the next charakter, who will be nerfed pretty hard, on paper he definitely seems like a top5 charakter to me now

 

[Noa.]

Ness is very clearly high tier and maybe possibly top tier in this game. I kind of doubt top tier but it's certainly possible.

I'm afraid to admit it but Ness is probably a little bit overtuned in this game and could use with the smallest of nerfs if they wanted to balance the game further. These nerfs on Ness honestly don't even affect him really. The dthrow nerf hurts because of how often we us it, but usmash and dsmash? How often are those actually used in the middle of a match? I use each one about once every two stocks. They're just so incredibly niche tools that a slight damage reduction on them is not noticeable. Ness's strengths are so great in this game. One of the best grab games out of the whole cast, easy access to KOs with bthrow and uair, good aerial mobility and aerials, great juggling with uair and pk thunder, and having a lot of options that are difficult to punish because of how little recovery they have. Ness's only weaknesses are a susceptible recovery and a problem dealing with big disjointed hitboxes. That's it really! He's so strong in this game.

 

[Tainic]

Ness still is very good in that game, as long as his BnB combo (D-Throw-Triple Fair) still does a decent amount of damages (How much is it now ? 28% ?) he'll be fine imo, he wasn't really hurt by the nerf that much.

Our boy's gonna be top tier.

 

[Ranias]

Can anyone test if PSI Magnet cancelling still works?
I'm worried about it because of all the bug fixes.
I want to save my replays before patching.

 

[Hukster]

Can anyone test if PSI Magnet cancelling still works?
I'm worried about it because of all the bug fixes.
I want to save my replays before patching.

Magnet Cancelling is still there. Don't worry.

 

[Thinkaman]

I can confirm (side-by-side 3DSs) that there are no changes to u-smash or d-smash. Only 2% off d-throw.

 

[Uffe]

I can confirm (side-by-side 3DSs) that there are no changes to u-smash or d-smash. Only 2% off d-throw.

Are you sure? Because I did a comparison with those who didn't have their games updated. You tested this on Mario, correct? I'll have to see what the others tested it on, because I know the heavier the character, the more damage is given. At least it appears that way.

 

[Ranias]

Nerfing Up Smash and Down Smash would be really weird if it was true.

I expect Nintendo to only nerf things that are obviously broken. I don't see many high level players utilizing Up Smash and Down Smash a whole lot.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes, side-by side, 2 3DSs.

 

[Earthbound360]

Actually, Ness is looking to be an even more likely candidate for top tier than he was before. The nerf is kinda sad on it's own, but take it in context. Sheik and Rosalina, two of his worst match-ups, have been neutered and significantly nerfed (respectively). Ness likely has an even more reliable combo game than before and he still has all of his normal kill moves (Bair, Uair, Bthrow, etc etc). Ness is almost definitely top 10 now. Shaya's initial impressions post-patch actually put him at no. 3 on the list.

Ness is godlike this iteration, and if you don't see it it's because you're not looking at the broader picture, which is that everyone around him has taken serious blows to the gut and he's one of the ones left standing relatively unharmed.

But in addition to this, characters that would normally give him trouble have been buffed as well, namely sword characters. Once Ike, Shulk, and MK players start gaining tournament momentum, it's going to hurt Ness.

To be brutally honest, I'm VERY unimpressed with Ness in this game. Once the 21st rolls by I'm going to put a full on analysis my thoughts of him down on paper, and probably post it here for teh lulz. He got some buffs yes, but you've got to be aware of the significant nerfs he received as well (such as dair and fair).
In addition tothis, he's going to be subject to what I have dubbed the "Ness effect." This is how everyone thinks he's high tier within the early release of Smash, then he slowly drops lower and lower on the tier list until he's low tier (happened every game except for Melee).

 

[Ranias]

But in addition to this, characters that would normally give him trouble have been buffed as well, namely sword characters. Once Ike, Shulk, and MK players start gaining tournament momentum, it's going to hurt Ness.

To be brutally honest, I'm VERY unimpressed with Ness in this game. Once the 21st rolls by I'm going to put a full on analysis my thoughts of him down on paper, and probably post it here for teh lulz. He got some buffs yes, but you've got to be aware of the significant nerfs he received as well (such as dair and fair).
In addition tothis, he's going to be subject to what I have dubbed the "Ness effect." This is how everyone thinks he's high tier within the early release of Smash, then he slowly drops lower and lower on the tier list until he's low tier (happened every game except for Melee).

I don't think sword characters will become too much of a problem because Ness has strong zoning and juggling capabilities with his projectiles.

 

[Uffe]

Yes, side-by side, 2 3DSs.

I kind of feel bad now for throwing out falsified information which I thought were to be true. If it was done on Mario, which I'm going to take that yes as an answer to everything, then I'll take your word for it. Sorry about this, everybody.

 

[Ranias]

I kind of feel bad now for throwing out falsified information which I thought were to be true. If it was done on Mario, which I'm going to take that yes as an answer to everything, then I'll take your word for it. Sorry about this, everybody.

I understand the difficulty with such a move. Multi-hit and everything.

Let's just blame Sakurai for not releasing patch notes.

 

[Thinkaman]

There were some moves that were really confusing that I messed up on too. Me and AA were convinced for awhile that Sonic u-smash had changed, because it has such weird hitboxes (slightly different KB, same damage) when this wasn't true.

 

[Noa.]

It's easy to mess up with some moves. Meh at least it was corrected rather quickly.

 

[Ranias]

Yo guys. I just heard of something else that isn't updated in the patch notes thread.

o-p-n-i-e-u-w on tumblr found out that we no longer have to attack out of short hopped air dodges to cancel the landing lag.

He said he posted it in the patch notes thread, but I guess it hasn't caught on yet.

EDIT: I just patched and can confirm that Ness indeed does not get any airdodge landing lag after short hop airdodging.

 

[Luco]

But in addition to this, characters that would normally give him trouble have been buffed as well, namely sword characters. Once Ike, Shulk, and MK players start gaining tournament momentum, it's going to hurt Ness.

To be brutally honest, I'm VERY unimpressed with Ness in this game. Once the 21st rolls by I'm going to put a full on analysis my thoughts of him down on paper, and probably post it here for teh lulz. He got some buffs yes, but you've got to be aware of the significant nerfs he received as well (such as dair and fair).
In addition tothis, he's going to be subject to what I have dubbed the "Ness effect." This is how everyone thinks he's high tier within the early release of Smash, then he slowly drops lower and lower on the tier list until he's low tier (happened every game except for Melee).

We outrange Marth now; and MK isn't that amazing against us beyond edge-guarding if we're in a bad position (with PKT's buffs I don't think he's going to be that much of a problem anyway). If anything, most of the sword-users have been nerfed while Ness still has range. Fair has been nerfed, but everybody's range has been nerfed and in this game, Ness beats out the vast majority of the cast in terms of range. His Dair nerf is being over-rated and I don't think will have a significant impact on his meta either.

In addition, he has an incredible combo game that does sooooo much damage and now that vectoring has been removed, Bthrow kills at ludicrous percents. I am aware of those nerfs and i'm calling it now that they're not his issue.

On the subject of previous games, Ness (and Lucas) in Brawl were in Low tier on the very first tier list, so i'm not sure exactly where you're coming from with the 'ness effect', because they certainly weren't considered as good as Ness is in this game.

Seriously though, he'll have some annoying match-ups but I don't think he's low tier and right now, Ness mains both in my continent and America are getting results and seem like they will continue to do so, at least for the present.

 

[Earthbound360]

We outrange Marth now; and MK isn't that amazing against us beyond edge-guarding if we're in a bad position (with PKT's buffs I don't think he's going to be that much of a problem anyway). If anything, most of the sword-users have been nerfed while Ness still has range. Fair has been nerfed, but everybody's range has been nerfed and in this game, Ness beats out the vast majority of the cast in terms of range. His Dair nerf is being over-rated and I don't think will have a significant impact on his meta either.

In addition, he has an incredible combo game that does sooooo much damage and now that vectoring has been removed, Bthrow kills at ludicrous percents. I am aware of those nerfs and i'm calling it now that they're not his issue.

On the subject of previous games, Ness (and Lucas) in Brawl were in Low tier on the very first tier list, so i'm not sure exactly where you're coming from with the 'ness effect', because they certainly weren't considered as good as Ness is in this game.

Seriously though, he'll have some annoying match-ups but I don't think he's low tier and right now, Ness mains both in my continent and America are getting results and seem like they will continue to do so, at least for the present.

Ness doesn't really have a lot of range in this game. There's still a mess of characters that outrange him on a regular basis. And this has been one of his longest struggles since like Melee.
Fair nerf is freakin huge. Not only in terms of range, but damage. What the hell is the point of a combo move that does such pitiful damage now? 7% come on man...
I mean, it could be used for the neutral game because of its lingering hitbox and range... if that didn't get nerfed too >_>
Retreating fair defensively has never been so... bad. At least, not since Smash 64.
Dair nerf makes the move like useless on stage. I used to think it was one of the best dairs in Brawl. Now I think it's one of the worst. You can't use the vertical knockback as a combo tool like... ever anymore, and the hitbox is finnicky as all hell.

His combo game is alright, would be better if fair did **** for damage. And dthrow got nerfed in damage too, our main combo starter, that helps tons. Bthrow kills at "okay" percents. Ludicrous is pushing it. It actually kills at later percents than in Brawl. "Ludicrous" is Bowser's Down B move, or PKT2. Bthrow really just kills at the same percentage most other kills moves do (130%+).

Ness was considered to have a promising future in Brawl at first due to his straight buffs from Melee. This was before the first official tier lists came out with him around mid I think. Just like we're discussing how well he'll do right now, before the first official tier list is out. But instead of straight buffs, he's recieved a plethora of nerfs to accompany them.

His matchups are already looking bad as is, struggling with a lot of considered top tiers like Sheik and Rosalina. I haven't been keeping up with tournament results enough, but I haven't heard of him taking 1st at any noteworthy tournaments yet.