Nerfs apparent in 3.5

[woopyfrood]

It's actually not that bad. It does take a couple of minutes to adjust with spacing of his shortened tail. Regardless his tilts are still good especially his d-tilt which is great for starting combos

I'm sure, it's just a design thing, you know? Mewtwo has a pretty long tail in all other portrayals.

Anyway, it's still currently longer than his Melee tail, right?

 

[InfinityCollision]

^ Large conclusions after one day eh?

Bold perhaps, but I believe my assertions are well founded.

Mewtwo only enjoyed any success at low to mid levels of competitive play in 3.02 because the competition at that level struggled to deal with his range and telehovernair/fair. If a player at that level could exert sufficient pressure on Mewtwo or correctly anticipate his teleport approaches, he wasn't terribly overpowered. The players in this category are hit hardest by the changes to Mewtwo because their crutches are all gone. They'll have to adapt to playing traditional(ish) footsies with occasional teleports, but that's not something that will come easily for a character such as this because of the particulars of his moveset.

At higher levels players brought most of his kit to bear, and they'll adapt well enough to the new Mewtwo. While I may disagree with some specifics on execution, I think they're basically in the right ballpark here when looking solely at his power level. Props for that much.

At levels well beyond current Mewtwo play we'd see tech like teleport autocancels really take off in usage, increasing his overall mobility and threat level further. Thing is that this is still really ****ing hard to do consistently, which is why nobody ever managed to fully exploit it in 3.02. Your angles have to be incredibly precise and usage is dynamic. The penalty for errors in autocancel tech were already high if you ended up in the grounded landing animation (this hasn't changed), but now there's a more noticeable discrepancy between an autocancel and an aerial ending. While this is an anticipated change per loss of hover out of teleport, it's more heavily felt now that it might actually make a significant difference in his tier placement.

 

[Mischief]

Yes but the rest of the cast has also received considerable changes. Mewtwo still has, I believe, one now the best offstage presences in the entire game, and that now matters a lot more now that not all characters have that presence.

Who knows, time will tell

 

[proxibomb]

His weight isn't really a nerf to me, but a buff. His weight allows me to complete combos better, and I can easily DI out of spacies.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All this paranoia....

I'll sum up my thoughts, the real big nerf to Mewtwo is his approach atm, everything else is okay still, tail, while reduced, is still effective, and he gets more reward off of basically anything compared to Melee. Dtilt got even better and is scoops city, his other options are still potent, and I'm going to argue that his offstage is even better because of the castwide recovery nerfs. Really the most difficult hurdle now is getting in but once you've set up he can do a lot of things.

Just IMO though.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Well, I actually really enjoyed the Teleport>Hover thing. I look so badass whenever I do it.

I suppose, now I could just play like Tai, mixed with a little bit of hovering and longer tailplay?

 

[EmuKiller]

The big thing for me is the new skill ceiling. Up-B to the ledge from the stage is like... super easy to mess up. especially if you throw in jankier ledges. and then sometimes you clip the stage instead of going to the ledge right away and have vulnerability. So I'm definitely going to have to adjust to not SD as much.

I'm going to put in work to try and step up my float combos. IMO every mewtwo needs to have a shoulder or Z button set to jump now. Some way to be able to move in one direction and c-stick in the other while maintaining hover. Didn't feel like it mattered as much in 3.0 but with the lack of up-tilt at low% and with the new hover it feels necessary.

I'll be going to a big tournament Saturday and a small one Wednesday (I think) so there will be videos of me playing offline soon.

 

[IronChar]

looking forward to your results emukiller

 

[TTTTTsd]

The big thing for me is the new skill ceiling. Up-B to the ledge from the stage is like... super easy to mess up. especially if you throw in jankier ledges. and then sometimes you clip the stage instead of going to the ledge right away and have vulnerability. So I'm definitely going to have to adjust to not SD as much.

I'm going to put in work to try and step up my float combos. IMO every mewtwo needs to have a shoulder or Z button set to jump now. Some way to be able to move in one direction and c-stick in the other while maintaining hover. Didn't feel like it mattered as much in 3.0 but with the lack of up-tilt at low% and with the new hover it feels necessary.

I'll be going to a big tournament Saturday and a small one Wednesday (I think) so there will be videos of me playing offline soon.

What about our grab, or wavedash OoS? This is gonna severely limit our options just because Hover is a weird input. If it was an input like Ganon's(I.e. you input a command of any kind one, and you toggle it by inputting it again, basically Down+Jump and then Down+Jump again to unhover) I'd probably be more down, but I gotta sacrifice an option for this....

 

[EmuKiller]

Right now I use standard melee controls but with R set to jump. I use L to wavedash/everything else and Z is untouched just whatever shoulder you don't use for shield/wavedash I recommend making jump for otherwise impossible hover stuff. It's seriously like playing without a c-stick.

yeah grab and wavedash oos are both good. Grab is pretty situational cause at high levels of play people are going to be safe on block, so you have to get a perfect shield to really get a grab.

Also I made a quick video about ledge cancelling up-B to get hover back (shoutouts to frozen and DARKcpu0). I MIGHT BE WRONG but I think you can ledge cancel up-B, get hover, and NOT get an up-B back to use again. So pretty easy to mess up if you don't know which ledge cancel you got. I think this is a cool option for getting offstage in hover quickly, but I dunno if you'll see me using it in tournament until like.. 3-4 months from now when I can really utilize it consistently. Right now I'm focusing my lab time on stealing the ledge with up-B without clipping the stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVJVa4GQ_8I

EDIT: So yep talked to frozen. We both think it's the difference between sliding off the stage after up-B, and getting the weird "lucario/wolf" ledge glitch that you might be used to from 3.0 where you just appear next to the ledge. Sliding off naturally means you can up-B again, getting the glitch means no up-B.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yo check out Frozen on free saltines. He not only makes 3.5 Mewtwo look hella powerful but also swag and cool and fun to use and most of all, fair. Good shtuff.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Well, I actually really enjoyed the Teleport>Hover thing. I look so badass whenever I do it.

I suppose, now I could just play like Tai, mixed with a little bit of hovering and longer tailplay?

Pretty much, yeah.

What about our grab, or wavedash OoS? This is gonna severely limit our options just because Hover is a weird input. If it was an input like Ganon's(I.e. you input a command of any kind one, and you toggle it by inputting it again, basically Down+Jump and then Down+Jump again to unhover) I'd probably be more down, but I gotta sacrifice an option for this....

Z jump Y grab is good ****, highly recommend it.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I used to set my C-Stick to Specials so I didn't mess up my teleports.

Well, I don't teleport as much now after th eupdate. I wonder if I should change it back.

 

[ArcDawn]

actually I just saw in salty highlights mewtwo can still teleport from stage to ledge? How is this done? And I've tried the old method but it just gives me ledge hover cancel or auto death from overshooting.

 

[Darkoness21]

actually I just saw in salty highlights mewtwo can still teleport from stage to ledge? How is this done? And I've tried the old method but it just gives me ledge hover cancel or auto death from overshooting.

Are you talking about like snapping onto the ledge when you teleport?

 

[ArcDawn]

Are you talking about like snapping onto the ledge when you teleport?

yeah from stage though

 

[Darkoness21]

Yeah in 3.5 it really emphasizes on precision to do it consistently now. You would have to short hop and angle your teleport to where it snaps you on the ledge.

 

[ArcDawn]

Yeah in 3.5 it really emphasizes on precision to do it consistently now. You would have to short hop and angle your teleport to where it snaps you on the ledge.

does it auto turn around too? or how would I do it?

 

[EmuKiller]

Guys I'm the mewtwo in salty highlights! And yes I REALLY AM that bad.

ArcDawn I talk about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji6xRFZw7DU

But yeah I manually do a turnaround at the end of up-B in case I slide off. I have no idea if this is correct or not. You don't HAVE to do the turn around, and keeping the input as simple as possible might help reduce the number of SDs.

 

[InfinityCollision]

lol git gud skrub

Are there any other interactions that the physics change on teleport would affect? I haven't noticed any, but I also haven't played much Mewtwo since uh... September, actually.

 

[proxibomb]

Right now I use standard melee controls but with R set to jump. I use L to wavedash/everything else and Z is untouched just whatever shoulder you don't use for shield/wavedash I recommend making jump for otherwise impossible hover stuff. It's seriously like playing without a c-stick.

yeah grab and wavedash oos are both good. Grab is pretty situational cause at high levels of play people are going to be safe on block, so you have to get a perfect shield to really get a grab.

Also I made a quick video about ledge cancelling up-B to get hover back (shoutouts to frozen and DARKcpu0). I MIGHT BE WRONG but I think you can ledge cancel up-B, get hover, and NOT get an up-B back to use again. So pretty easy to mess up if you don't know which ledge cancel you got. I think this is a cool option for getting offstage in hover quickly, but I dunno if you'll see me using it in tournament until like.. 3-4 months from now when I can really utilize it consistently. Right now I'm focusing my lab time on stealing the ledge with up-B without clipping the stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVJVa4GQ_8I

EDIT: So yep talked to frozen. We both think it's the difference between sliding off the stage after up-B, and getting the weird "lucario/wolf" ledge glitch that you might be used to from 3.0 where you just appear next to the ledge. Sliding off naturally means you can up-B again, getting the glitch means no up-B.

Am I that one weird guy that's fine with using Y to hover, because I can perform aerials perfectly fine while Y hovering.

Guys I'm the mewtwo in salty highlights! And yes I REALLY AM that bad.

ArcDawn I talk about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji6xRFZw7DU

But yeah I manually do a turnaround at the end of up-B in case I slide off. I have no idea if this is correct or not. You don't HAVE to do the turn around, and keeping the input as simple as possible might help reduce the number of SDs.

L-cancel your moves with Mewtwo, unless you already are and I don't notice it.

 

[Darkoness21]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe hover cancelled aerials already halves the ending lag of your moves.

 

[Scatz]

L-cancel flash doesn't show up properly when debug hitbox collisions are on.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe hover cancelled aerials already halves the ending lag of your moves.

HC aerials have their landing lag reduced to a fixed value - I believe it's 5 frames now?

 

[ChKn]

I'm finding it easier to be in motion and have Mewtwo's tail facing the edge before going for a teleport snap than to be still and then go for the snap. I mess up so much more on the latter and have no clue why. I'm using the same visual clues (i.e on GHZ, I put M2 near the totem then go for the snap), but I can't get the consistency down on the standing still part.

Also, quick question, would we be able to pseudo-stall on ledge if we can drop of the ledge, then jump to line M2 up and directly teleport into the ledge? I know we only have 5 regrabs, but I feel like I can utilize that in some way to buy some time before attempting to get back on stage.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Also, quick question, would we be able to pseudo-stall on ledge if we can drop of the ledge, then jump to line M2 up and directly teleport into the ledge? I know we only have 5 regrabs, but I feel like I can utilize that in some way to buy some time before attempting to get back on stage.

Stalling is still a thing, it's just harder to get an airtight ledgestall and autocanceling teleport onstage is a bit slower now. I press back to release, jump, and roll my stick forward in a half circle while inputting the teleport. Tap jumpers won't notice much difference I think.

...okay, new trick I just found: you can ledge cancel teleport while coming up from the ledge. It's tricky, but it's possible to get it so you clip the edge and just barely drift onto the stage rather than reappearing further away onstage (autocanceled), in the air, or regrabbing the ledge. Could be an interesting mixup when getting back onstage since it's basically an autocancel in place. Your opponent can't cover the ledge cancel and the onstage autocancel simultaneously.

(clarification edit: This is new to PM Mewtwo, but it was a thing in Melee.)

Yes but the rest of the cast has also received considerable changes. Mewtwo still has, I believe, one now the best offstage presences in the entire game, and that now matters a lot more now that not all characters have that presence.

Who knows, time will tell

Forgot to reply to this. While true, Mewtwo's neutral game is kind of bad now that he's back to being Wavedash into Dtilt: The Character. Weaker players will struggle with his poor mobility, leading to fewer situations in which they can harness his gimping prowess and killing power (plus they'll have more trouble racking damage/setting up edgeguard situations). Skilled players will get substantially better mileage out of his kit in all areas. Again, autocancels will play a factor in this and nobody with their name out there is fully utilizing them right now.

 

[EmuKiller]

As a heads up, I pretty much approve of all of InfinityCollision's posts

 

[ArcDawn]

Recently I've been putting a lot of reverse teleport into my game (where I teleport past them and crossup with a turnaround fair or teleport escape to shadowball) I think this type of approach is safe against grabs and can help w/ mixing up the opponent but I'd like some opinions on that because I see very little of this

 

[Plebiscuit]

Crossup tele bair/fair/Confusion/SB are less likely to get you shieldgrabbed than non-crossup, but, like anything out of tele, don't get predictable; fast/lingering hitboxes stuff those approaches on reaction (which is much easier for the opponent since we're visible on reappearance 4-5 frames earlier than we were in 3.02, yay). Use it as a mixup, not as your go-to approach, and you're golden.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It can work as a mixup if used with care, but generally speaking aerial teleport's main strength in neutral now is the ability to shut down laggy options at midrange.

The thing about crossup teleport (and teleport in general) is that it requires a particular spacing. If your opponent understands Mewtwo's spacing, they might be able to anticipate the crossup and move forward on reaction to teleport. This mitigates the threat of crossup fair or confusion and gives them ample time to deal with the possibility of a shadow ball, especially with the extra startup on it now. If they're feeling really ballsy they could potentially even stuff your approach outright via a fast tilt or aerial rather than simply playing defensively.

Losing hover out of teleport drastically limited Mewtwo's approach options not just because HC aerials are safe, but because hover itself allowed some very dangerous mixups that were generally pretty safe for Mewtwo. The ability to reappear at various positions and then attack in multiple ways or even simply wait and observe the opponent's response was incredibly powerful.

 

[EmuKiller]

Hey guys back from KTAR XI. Got 7th losing to Seagull Joe in winners and M2K in losers, cause m2k had his crazy run through losers bracket. I probably would have lost to gahtzu/rolex who would have been my opponent had it not been m2k so my placing is accurate, probably even too high.

So I really like d-tilt -> Jump Cancel grab. D-tilt IASA is just nuts now.

But the reality is it's pretty hard to land d-tilt! I really just don't know how to approach my opponent in 3.5 yet, and waiting for them to approach and hoping they screw up can only get you so far haha.

Characters that can force you to approach are pretty rough! Other issue I had which threw me off was HBA Zubat's Luigi almost beating me. Really good set, but dang luigi's priority is a lot more noticeable with mewtwo's toned down tail.

When wavedash > d-tilt or run > hover n-air don't work, I'm not sure what else to approach with. I'll play around more with hover cancel up-air but yep definitely going to be some time before I get better.

 

[ArcDawn]

Hey guys back from KTAR XI. Got 7th losing to Seagull Joe in winners and M2K in losers, cause m2k had his crazy run through losers bracket. I probably would have lost to gahtzu/rolex who would have been my opponent had it not been m2k so my placing is accurate, probably even too high.

So I really like d-tilt -> Jump Cancel grab. D-tilt IASA is just nuts now.

But the reality is it's pretty hard to land d-tilt! I really just don't know how to approach my opponent in 3.5 yet, and waiting for them to approach and hoping they screw up can only get you so far haha.

Characters that can force you to approach are pretty rough! Other issue I had which threw me off was HBA Zubat's Luigi almost beating me. Really good set, but dang luigi's priority is a lot more noticeable with mewtwo's toned down tail.

When wavedash > d-tilt or run > hover n-air don't work, I'm not sure what else to approach with. I'll play around more with hover cancel up-air but yep definitely going to be some time before I get better.

congrats ! any vods?

 

[Plebiscuit]

That set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIhX0DnZn3w) against Milkman... what're you trying to do Emu, get Mewtwo nerfed again? Best 3.5 M2 play I've seen yet.

 

[Darkoness21]

Yeah I saw that video as well. I was like "and this is the nerfed Mewtwo? I almost don't see the difference." Really learned a lot of that set and can't wait to see more of how Mewtwo is adjusting in this patch.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Hey guys back from KTAR XI. Got 7th losing to Seagull Joe in winners and M2K in losers, cause m2k had his crazy run through losers bracket. I probably would have lost to gahtzu/rolex who would have been my opponent had it not been m2k so my placing is accurate, probably even too high.

So I really like d-tilt -> Jump Cancel grab. D-tilt IASA is just nuts now.

But the reality is it's pretty hard to land d-tilt! I really just don't know how to approach my opponent in 3.5 yet, and waiting for them to approach and hoping they screw up can only get you so far haha.

Characters that can force you to approach are pretty rough! Other issue I had which threw me off was HBA Zubat's Luigi almost beating me. Really good set, but dang luigi's priority is a lot more noticeable with mewtwo's toned down tail.

When wavedash > d-tilt or run > hover n-air don't work, I'm not sure what else to approach with. I'll play around more with hover cancel up-air but yep definitely going to be some time before I get better.

Coincidentally, I've been studying Luigi play for inspiration on how to handle the revamped Mewtwo.

Hear me out for a sec. Luigi, like Mewtwo, relies heavily on his wavedash and waveland for ground mobility. Both can exert incredible pressure against their opponent. Mewtwo's frame data differs, but he can utilize his unique tools to accomplish a similar end result. Wavedash into dtilt and grab fulfills much the same purpose as Luigi's ground pokes. Where Luigi pressures with a dair, fair, or nair, Mewtwo can hover nair into a waveland (retreating or crossup), fair/bair, grab/command grab, or even into a teleport. Mixing dtilt and hover/HC'd aerials creates a flurry of hitboxes that's very dangerous for the opponent to interact with, while Mewtwo can continue to move with relative freedom.

While Mewtwo isn't quite as slippery as Luigi on the ground, he's got other strengths compared to Luigi so it balances out.

tl;dr As long as you hold their differences in mind, this might be a useful source of information for Mewtwo as well.

 

[Boiko]

Characters that can force you to approach are pretty rough! Other issue I had which threw me off was HBA Zubat's Luigi almost beating me. Really good set, but dang luigi's priority is a lot more noticeable with mewtwo's toned down tail.

That Luigi was getting the better of most games against Frozen at Ktar X. Given, they were friendlies, but still.

I mean, I bopped it with Ness, but ya know, w/e.

 

[Plebiscuit]

Frozen at Ktar X

Please tell me somebody filmed at least some of this.

 

[Boiko]

Please tell me somebody filmed at least some of this.

Nope.

 

[Plebiscuit]

Well, Keitaro, hope all those mid-tourney 3DS friendlies were worth it.

 

[ZeroPeachDedede]

The only thing which I don't like about 3.5 Mewtwo that I have found so far is his forward throw. In Melee, it would send out multiple small shadow orbs that could hit other opponents; in this version, no orbs appear and instead, he turns his opponent into a small shadow ball before sending them flying. I really feel that this alone is a big downgrade. (He's still fun to play, though)