Nerfs apparent in 3.5

[ArcDawn]

Seems like the inevitable tail nerf and ledge nerf will be in the final build of 3.5. How do you think this will affect our game? What can we do to adjust to this change?
Personally I feel like this change will make fighting longer ranged characters (marth,roy) much harder than before and I'm not really sure how I would change my playstyle to fit that. Of course, we haven't see all the changes yet but by speculating these two specific changes what do you guys think?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think it's interesting how the only time Mewtwo teleported in the 3.5 trailer it was immediately followed by a ledge snap ...

Well as someone who believes in the reasonable-ness of the PMDT, here are my predictions on how Mewtwo has been tweaked. We'll see in two days.

a) Aerial Up-B sends Mewtwo into special fall. Grounded Up-B consumes Mewtwo's double jump (and thus hover) but he can still act out of it. He acts out of it slower, the distance is perhaps smaller.
b) Hover duration reduced
c) Tail range adjusted, disjoint decreased/hurtbox extended further into tail
d) Greater differentiation between tail sweetspots and sourspots for more dynamic spacing and combo game
e) Something done about Up-Tilt and Up-Air, because dear god. The sweetspot/sourspot thing could cover this but more endlag would be nice.
f) Weight reverted to Melee.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I think it's interesting how the only time Mewtwo teleported in the 3.5 trailer it was immediately followed by a ledge snap ...

Well as someone who believes in the reasonable-ness of the PMDT, here are my predictions on how Mewtwo has been tweaked. We'll see in two days.

a) Aerial Up-B sends Mewtwo into special fall. Grounded Up-B consumes Mewtwo's double jump (and thus hover) but he can still act out of it. He acts out of it slower, the distance is perhaps smaller.
b) Hover duration reduced
c) Tail range adjusted, disjoint decreased/hurtbox extended further into tail
d) Greater differentiation between tail sweetspots and sourspots for more dynamic spacing and combo game
e) Something done about Up-Tilt and Up-Air, because dear god. The sweetspot/sourspot thing could cover this but more endlag would be nice.
f) Weight reverted to Melee.

That would be a huge nerf. Relative to actual play in 3.02 he'd plummet to bottom 10, if not bottom 5, and his room to grow would be severely curtailed.

I've talked about this several times in the past, but Mewtwo is incredibly sensitive to small changes in his moveset. This is especially true for changes to teleport and his aerial mobility. Several of these changes don't even address the actual problems with the character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

That would be a huge nerf. Relative to actual play in 3.02 he'd plummet to bottom 10, if not bottom 5, and his room to grow would be severely curtailed.

I've talked about this several times in the past, but Mewtwo is incredibly sensitive to small changes in his moveset. This is especially true for changes to teleport and his aerial mobility. Several of these changes don't even address the actual problems with the character.

Could you direct me to a post with your suggestions then, if I can't bother you to type them down here?

 

[InfinityCollision]

I've actually made very few concrete suggestions regarding Mewtwo. I consider him a rather thorny design challenge because of his reliance on certain sensitive options, but also because of his sky-high skill ceiling and the way different adjustments could force him into undesirable playstyles as his meta develops. This is further complicated by my desire to retain his current skill ceiling through any balance changes, and ideally he'd retain as much of his current playstyle as possible too. While I'm not entirely opposed to certain alternative options, I'd rather not alienate those who genuinely enjoy his current playstyle.

This is my most recent post on the topic iirc:

I'm pretty sure hover out of teleport is a goner. It's the primary reason his shield pressure is so good, nerfing that means tools like nair are much less powerful and no longer warrant consideration for nerfs. It also forces players to move beyond the hovernair/fair shenanigans where the meta has plateaued. Removing hover entirely or further nerfing it directly is a possibility but who knows. Range on tools like utilt/uair will probably get nerfed too. Possibly other options, but it's worth noting that Mewtwo's attacks are actually very unsafe for the most part. Without hover cancels his only options that are reasonably safe on block are fair and his command grab, maybe bair because of the range. His best normal is like -12 and his OoS game sucks.

Messing with his ability to act out of teleport is the possibility I find most worrying because it's by far the most sensitive to change. If you increase the endlag on aerial teleports then you severely limit his ability to safely approach, because it's the only halfway decent approach tool he's got. Autocancels are still a thing unless they increase the duration of the intangibility period, but that just leads to a meta where his best option is wooping around trying to get a punish or a surprise poke. On a stage like FD he'd be completely screwed, and regardless it's a very campy playstyle that I don't think the PMDT wants to encourage. It's also worth noting that autocancels are really difficult - I've yet to see a single player fully utilize them, just the basic stuff like autocancels from ledge that has easy setups and doesn't require precise angling. The punishment for messing up is also harsh, particularly if you unintentionally end in the grounded landing animation.

DrinkingFood had a pretty good idea a few posts later, which was making it so that teleport only refreshes when you touch the ground or grab a ledge. That'd put a stronger element of risk into his gameplay, but it sidesteps a lot of the potential issues that messing with teleport frame data invokes. He also correctly identified a number of places where Mewtwo arguably needs buffs/fixes, as he's got a few dumb bugs and several attacks with hitboxes that straight up whiff in situations where they arguably shouldn't due to his height.

For what it's worth I actually think his range is very appropriate to his current frame data on almost every attack; utilt and uair offend more because of their coverage and chainability than their range at any specific point in the attack. If you were to make an argument about range on any of his options then those would probably be the ones which most warrant a nerf, but I'd rather see utilt simply cover less horizontal space (kinda like a Marth utilt) and do... something about uair, haven't decided what yet. I'm against nerfing teleport's frame data in pretty much any way unless he gets tools to compensate for it; it's too critical to his gameplay right now. I think uthrow should be nerfed, wouldn't immediately object to a weight nerf without considering other factors (I like that the higher weight better reflects his actual properties but it's an option), the real problem with his sweetspots is that they're literally on his ass, and I'd probably leave the tail disjoint as is given his current idle and running animations.

 

[ArcDawn]

I've actually made very few concrete suggestions regarding Mewtwo. I consider him a rather thorny design challenge because of his reliance on certain sensitive options, but also because of his sky-high skill ceiling and the way different adjustments could force him into undesirable playstyles as his meta develops. This is further complicated by my desire to retain his current skill ceiling through any balance changes, and ideally he'd retain as much of his current playstyle as possible too. While I'm not entirely opposed to certain alternative options, I'd rather not alienate those who genuinely enjoy his current playstyle.

This is my most recent post on the topic iirc:



DrinkingFood had a pretty good idea a few posts later, which was making it so that teleport only refreshes when you touch the ground or grab a ledge. That'd put a stronger element of risk into his gameplay, but it sidesteps a lot of the potential issues that messing with teleport frame data invokes. He also correctly identified a number of places where Mewtwo arguably needs buffs/fixes, as he's got a few dumb bugs and several attacks with hitboxes that straight up whiff in situations where they arguably shouldn't due to his height.

For what it's worth I actually think his range is very appropriate to his current frame data on almost every attack; utilt and uair offend more because of their coverage and chainability than their range at any specific point in the attack. If you were to make an argument about range on any of his options then those would probably be the ones which most warrant a nerf, but I'd rather see utilt simply cover less horizontal space (kinda like a Marth utilt) and do... something about uair, haven't decided what yet. I'm against nerfing teleport's frame data in pretty much any way unless he gets tools to compensate for it; it's too critical to his gameplay right now. I think uthrow should be nerfed, wouldn't immediately object to a weight nerf without considering other factors (I like that the higher weight better reflects his actual properties but it's an option), the real problem with his sweetspots is that they're literally on his ***, and I'd probably leave the tail disjoint as is given his current idle and running animations.

I definitely agree on having his moveset stick. However, assuming tail length has decreased overall, further nerfing up-air and uptilt seem like a pretty drastic change considering mewtwo won't have much good anti air options. Fundamentally, I think nerfing his range in 3.0 is a good change but to make it usable it should at least have the same ratio of coverage. personally I think a way to balance this tail change is to increase the sweetspot range (or at least move the hitbox somewhere closer to the middle. This way it would allow mewtwo to have some reason to use his tail in it's shortened state.

 

[InfinityCollision]

If tail length does get nerfed then I don't think utilt or uair need any further changes in terms of hitboxes/coverage. I'd prefer targeted nerfs on those two moves though, because tail nerfs start messing with dtilt, ftilt, and bair as well. I really don't think those moves need nerfs. Dtilt is -12 on block. Ftilt is something like -18 and has no followups, but is an okay/situational "get away" tool as it's meant to be. Bair is -7 on block (sourspot) without hover canceling. He wants to avoid the close range game even now, nerfing his tail as a whole makes an already bad situation worse.

 

[ArcDawn]

If tail length does get nerfed then I don't think utilt or uair need any further changes in terms of hitboxes/coverage. I'd prefer targeted nerfs on those two moves though, because tail nerfs start messing with dtilt, ftilt, and bair as well. I really don't think those moves need nerfs. Dtilt is -12 on block. Ftilt is something like -18 and has no followups, but is an okay/situational "get away" tool as it's meant to be. Bair is -7 on block (sourspot) without hover canceling. He wants to avoid the close range game even now, nerfing his tail as a whole makes an already bad situation worse.

Oh ok yeah that makes sense. And yeah, his tail moves are going to take a huge hit if the length in the trailer stays. ( I see you melee mewtwo )

 

[IronChar]

I think the tail is the only "nerf" that we will see. it'll still be a sword like tail- just smaller.

expect a tighter more balanced mewtwo while still being in the top 6 "God teir"

 

[Darkoness21]

a) Aerial Up-B sends Mewtwo into special fall. Grounded Up-B consumes Mewtwo's double jump (and thus hover) but he can still act out of it. He acts out of it slower, the distance is perhaps smaller.

While I was at Shuffle VI this past weekend, someone (who claim they know a person who works in the PMDT) said something along those lines. Again these are all predictions and just have to wait and see this Friday.

 

[ArcDawn]

While I was at Shuffle VI this past weekend, someone (who claim they know a person who works in the PMDT) said something along those lines. Again these are all predictions and just have to wait and see this Friday.

if this is true...I will be sad

 

[InfinityCollision]

Going by the character page on the PM website, it sounds like he's still able to act out of teleport provided he hasn't burned his double jump.

 

[YoshiplayerX]

So what do you guys think of the new Mewtwo?
I think its still good

 

[ArcDawn]

So what do you guys think of the new Mewtwo?
I think its still good

eh I'm really able to say at this point but it seems to me that he'll have to work really hard to do anything right now

 

[Darkoness21]

eh I'm really able to say at this point but it seems to me that he'll have to work really hard to do anything right now

I would have to agree YoshiPlayerX. Mewtwo is still good. We just have to come up with other ways of approaching and use of tilts/aerials. Let's see what Emukiller has to say about this. He knows Mewtwo inside and out so it shouldn't be a problem

 

[DARKcpu0]

I would have to agree YoshiPlayerX. Mewtwo is still good. We just have to come up with other ways of approaching and use of tilts/aerials. Let's see what Emukiller has to say about this. He knows Mewtwo inside and out so it shouldn't be a problem

Know what mewtwo has to do now?

Play melee.

He's going to rely on dtilt to grab/fair/side b

His shadowball is barely viable due to the dumb nerf on the speed of it, but its still almost decent for controlling space.

Down B seems like a decent approach from a wavedash but its still slow on start up so not the safest option.

He could just woop in and fair but thats not all too safe either given his little warning before he's there and the option itself is pretty easy to read without the warning.

Mewtwo got better at edgegaurding though. He can ledge cancel the ending of his up b crazy easy and get a float straight out of it if you know how to do it right, which is a free float fair out of teleport off stage while you still retain an up b because ledge cancelled.

Only upside to the nerfs to his up b I've found, but its situational, and delicate.

Mewtwo just needs to play melee now.

Better start learning DJC's

Or atleast imo. Emu's probably gonna list off **** that proves me wrong lol.

 

[EmuKiller]

Yeah I'm pretty much struggling with the same stuff. What to do in neutral and what to do OoS. I think how well mewtwo does in tournament will come down to how well people figure out how to lead into a big combo since the potential to deal a ton of damage is there. A secondary might be necessary just so that you can counterpick to a stage that's really good for mewtwo.

I think the best 3.5 mewtwo for the first month is going to be Frozen, so definitely watch his videos when they get uploaded because that's what I'll be doing to figure out how to play the new Mewtwo :D

 

[DARKcpu0]

Yeah I'm pretty much struggling with the same stuff. What to do in neutral and what to do OoS. I think how well mewtwo does in tournament will come down to how well people figure out how to lead into a big combo since the potential to deal a ton of damage is there. A secondary might be necessary just so that you can counterpick to a stage that's really good for mewtwo.

I think the best 3.5 mewtwo for the first month is going to be Frozen, so definitely watch his videos when they get uploaded because that's what I'll be doing to figure out how to play the new Mewtwo :D

OoS is actually pretty safe if you can keep the spacing right. Teleport away and ledge cancel up b into float, teleport back in if you please.

On an unrelated note,
I've been pulling off moves out of teleport after having used a double jump whether it be just then cause tap jump or a few seconds prior. Nothing consistent however.

This normal? Seems to happen when I never really NEED it to, but still something to note. I've been just out of habit "acting" out either fairs nairs of reversed neutral b's just before appearing and it's happened sub frequently.

 

[Tero.]

I'm done with M2. This is stupid.

 

[chaosmasterro]

I'll wait for Frozen to pull out some tricks again like when he discovered M2 potential at S@X.

Not a fan of the confusion nerf and lack of auto snap without perfect precision. We'll see.

 

[MonkUnit]

BTW with the tail shortening in 3.5, I will be making gifs comparing the tail range of 3.02 Mewtwo to 3.5 Mewtwo for U-Air, U-Tilt, and B-Air. IDK when I'll finish them and post them, but I thought you guys here would be interested in this.

 

[Szion]

Um. Mewtwo cpu just tele'd and went into special fall.

WELP, the tele approach aerials has been fun y'all..

 

[ArcDawn]

Um. Mewtwo cpu just tele'd and went into special fall.

WELP, the tele approach aerials has been fun y'all..

it's still possible but it's not as good as before. Strictly speaking you are basically using them as a pocket trick that your opponent will have to respect. if you mix it up with tele fair and nair approaches you could probably get some punishes in

 

[Szion]

We can still act out of up b? i just assumed we cudnt because special fall..huh.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Mewtwo got carpet bombed. Nerfs everywhere with no apparent intent other than "nerf Mewtwo, especially Teleport". A few of the nerfs are head-scratchers, while other things surprisingly went untouched. He wasn't really refined so much as just generally toned down.

His skill ceiling is still there (albeit with somewhat reduced results), but his effort/reward curve is atrocious now. He'll be mediocre at low to mid-level play, passable at higher level play, and if someone actually bothers to push his meta up and beyond where it currently stands (the plateau is gone but the penalty for errors just shot way up so the incentive is still poor) he could still be good. Question is, how many people will want to put in that much effort?

I forsee Mewtwo players being a rare breed in 3.5, and they weren't all that common to begin with.

 

[Mischief]

^ Large conclusions after one day eh?

 

[ArcDawn]

We can still act out of up b? i just assumed we cudnt because special fall..huh.

as long as you didn't use your second jump

 

[iamanobody]

the changes seem alright, but i would have preferred it to be optional whether to sacrifice your double jump to cancel midair teleport; i think the current functionality may have unintended, unneeded consequences, and it also adds more depth if it's an option. perhaps hold/press shield(useless non-face button after teleport) while teleporting to sacrifice?

BTW with the tail shortening in 3.5, I will be making gifs comparing the tail range of 3.02 Mewtwo to 3.5 Mewtwo for U-Air, U-Tilt, and B-Air. IDK when I'll finish them and post them, but I thought you guys here would be interested in this.

i'm interested in seeing them, thanks for the work in advance.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mmm, figures this would happen to Mewtwo right as I got interested in giving him a whirl. At least I can say the new D-Tilt is hype.....

I'm sure once people start going in they'll unlock some sort of potential, I wanna see where people can take him so I know where I can start too.

 

[WinterShorts]

So what do you guys think of the new Mewtwo?
I think its still good

I think it's still decent as well. I actually like him nerfed, even when playing as him, becase since his tail is shorter, he can't teleport into attack that much anymore, and he throw's shadow balls slower, he has a closer resemblence to Melee Mewtwo, of course a low-tier character in the game, which makes it more rewarding to master a character like that.

I'm pretty sure the same goes for the other 5 god characters from PM 3.0:

 

[woopyfrood]

So is there a visible difference in the length of his tail now?

I don't want him to become Mr Mcstubbytails.

 

[ArcDawn]

So is there a visible difference in the length of his tail now?

I don't want him to become Mr Mcstubbytails.

yes there is

 

[woopyfrood]

Laaaaaaaaame.

 

[Darkoness21]

Laaaaaaaaame.

It's actually not that bad. It does take a couple of minutes to adjust with spacing of his shortened tail. Regardless his tilts are still good especially his d-tilt which is great for starting combos

 

[Master Raven]

mewtwo is still really strong lol the nerfs aren't that bad. he essentially lost a couple options and we'll have to improve our neutral now that we don't have 50/50 hit-and-murder teleport approaches and our tail is shorter, but he can still rack up insane damage pretty handily. shadow ball nerf doesn't bother me tbh, i like to use it to for pressure, covering techs and sniping. don't just throw it out there mindlessly.

i actually have more fun playing this new mewtwo since i have to focus more on good neutral and it just feels very smooth playing him that way.

 

[WildestSpade1]

Overall, the biggest problem I have with 3.5 mewtwo is that he really lost his "PM feel." He practically feels like melee mewtwo with a hover to me now, and while I do like melee mewtwo, I think it's kinda sad that so much of his originality in PM feels lost. For example, the new teleport-stage interactions are fine, but I really don't understand why they were changed. Also, the slower shadowball seems pretty unnecessary. I understand that he needed nerfs, but I'm confused about some of the choices.

There ares some positives, though, as the new hover feels more practical and dtilt fortunately received speed compensation for the reduced range.

Obviously it will take quite some time to see how good he is, but my initial reaction is "melee mewtwo + hover" seems a bit underwhelming compared to everyone's favorite fox...

 

[Jechtire]

Mewtwo is fine. The nerfs to the other characters help him out a lot, especially the recovery nerfs. Melee characters are much harder to deal with now.

 

[Heero Yuy]

What do you guys think of Mewtwo post-nerfs? I had fun with him while working in the lab some and was wondering if he'd make a good secondary against spacies. Would you still say he's solid?

 

[TTTTTsd]

He's fun, will probably be ok but nowhere near the ascension of god that he was before. The guy above who said to play it like Melee more is likely right, but at least Mewtwo gets good rewards here.

I do think that the rest of the cast getting trimmed makes Mewtwo's nerfs look a bit less daunting.

I'd like the old tail range to come back with the Dtilt still intact but that may still be too much. Maybe un-nerf Shadow Ball instead? IDK, I feel more comfortable using him because the Dtilt scoops are way fun.

 

[ArcDawn]

He's fun, will probably be ok but nowhere near the ascension of god that he was before. The guy above who said to play it like Melee more is likely right, but at least Mewtwo gets good rewards here.

I do think that the rest of the cast getting trimmed makes Mewtwo's nerfs look a bit less daunting.

I'd like the old tail range to come back with the Dtilt still intact but that may still be too much. Maybe un-nerf Shadow Ball instead? IDK, I feel more comfortable using him because the Dtilt scoops are way fun.

idk I feel like tail nerf is ok but just give mewtwo back his old teleport cuz now he can't be so aggro and has to play super safely (campy unlike his original design playstyle). also the new teleport makes it hard to sweetspot the ledge if you are above or below it so at least make that easier cuz a lot of times my deaths are from teleporting to recover and not snapping to the ledge. Shadow ball nerf was kinda weird but idc as much about it. any un-nerf would be good at this point