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Need Info On Zelda's Air Game Vs. Sidestepping

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
So I main Zelda and my roomie mains Luigi. He was telling me today that Luigi's sidestep is harder than most characters... in other words it has a shorter duration than most. Still my spamming of fireballs and lightning kicks has made him an amazing at sidestepping. I used to approach from the air and fast fall into my kicks but now he sidesteps and punishes me... most of the time with a dsmash. Now I stick to my ground game... and I have no problems with that.

I was just wondering what are the timing of other characters sidesteps? Are most people going to be able to punish me or can I get away with shielding (maybe power shielding an attack) and rolling away? What characters have the slowest or longest lasting sidesteps? Tia all.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
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Mar 1, 2008
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No really, I quit.
Most characters can just shield or sidestep any of your attacks and punish you for em, one of the least punishable ones is actually your neutral air and only because you can control your aerial drift massively while you do it. Otherwise all of her moves can be punished with someone with a long enough range after being shielded or sidestepped. Yes, this includes her down smash. Fsmash's last hit might push someone back far enough to save you I guess, I dunno really since the 2 characters I play have some of the longest close up range in the game. Nayru's dsmash and dtilt would probably be some of the safest options though.
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
Most characters can just shield or sidestep any of your attacks and punish you for em, one of the least punishable ones is actually your neutral air and only because you can control your aerial drift massively while you do it. Otherwise all of her moves can be punished with someone with a long enough range after being shielded or sidestepped. Yes, this includes her down smash. Fsmash's last hit might push someone back far enough to save you I guess, I dunno really since the 2 characters I play have some of the longest close up range in the game. Nayru's dsmash and dtilt would probably be some of the safest options though.
What about lightning kicks? I'm just wondering about approaches from the air. The landing lag isn't horrible so if Luigi has on of the shortest sidesteps... if other characters aren't on their game shouldn't I be able to get away with a kick and rolling away to safety quick?... at least for some characters? I mean if a Luigi sidesteps a little late but still avoids my lightning kick... and then goes immediately to a dsmash... I can power shield block that.
 

Ztarfish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
484
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B-Town Colorado
The kick has quite the ending lag, at least it does if you're trying to hit a grounded opponent, which he is if he's spotdodging. So I dunno, I don't really think kicks are all that safe of an approach to begin with.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
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No really, I quit.
Iris tends to lead with a feinted kick and if it doesnt hit she'll nayru's to cover herself but otherwise mehish I guess, if it's power shielded you're basically stuck to them for a good 2 seconds with which they can grab you straight out of the air.
 

Half-Split Soul

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,686
Dair also works as approach sometimes, just make sure that you land behind your opponent and you can usually do Nair or Nayru to protect yourself from enemy attack. If they spotdodge they are just in worse condition because you don´t get stuck into the hitlag. Otherwise it´s often imbossible to approach with Zelda´s midairs other than Nair.
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
Dair also works as approach sometimes, just make sure that you land behind your opponent and you can usually do Nair or Nayru to protect yourself from enemy attack. If they spotdodge they are just in worse condition because you don´t get stuck into the hitlag. Otherwise it´s often imbossible to approach with Zelda´s midairs other than Nair.
So I hear. Yeah I normally don't approach and I play a solid ground game so I'm fine without approaching in the air... I was just curious and probing about if some approaches could be made under certain circumstances.
 

S2

Smash Lord
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Apr 4, 2004
Messages
1,503
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Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
My best advice is to not approach directly from the air.

Not only can your aerials get side-stepped and punished, but the opponent can simply shield and grab/punish.

There are some exceptions (like using N-air when the shield is low, etc), but for the most part much of Zelda's aerial game is either situational or for punishing. Don't overuse Zelda's b-air or f-air. There's a fine line between using it enough where the opponent is scared of it, and overusing it. Overuse can let an opponent know what times you like to throw them out, which is what it sounds like your friend is doing. He knows your approach with the lightning kick, expect it, and counters.

Yeah it's sort of been mentioned, but you can follow a lighting kick up with either Nayru's or Din's pretty easily if the move finishes while your still aerial. There are some good applications for this. For instance, you can jump away and kick forwards then Din's as you come out to protect yourself if the opponent tries to follow up against you.


Zelda's approach game is tricky, but your ground approaches are a little bit safer. You can stand out of their hitbox range and abuse your range, running-a, hyphen smash, farore into them when they use a projectile, running grab (which has surprisingly long range), etc. Not the greatest approach game, but still viable.

What Zelda is best at though, is forcing opponents to approach. This works on most characters (obviously not Pit/Wolf/etc). Keep in mind you never have to be aggressive if you don't want to. Especially against Luigi. If you approaches aren't working, make him approach. Let him know you can throw Din's all day long if he never becomes the aggressor.

You seem to have reached the point where Din's isn't super great anymore. Meaning, it gets dodged most of the time. Just keep in mind it still has spacing uses, forces the opponent to approach, etc. Use it as a tool to influence your opponent's behavior, it's not just about damage.
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
My best advice is to not approach directly from the air.

Not only can your aerials get side-stepped and punished, but the opponent can simply shield and grab/punish.

There are some exceptions (like using N-air when the shield is low, etc), but for the most part much of Zelda's aerial game is either situational or for punishing. Don't overuse Zelda's b-air or f-air. There's a fine line between using it enough where the opponent is scared of it, and overusing it. Overuse can let an opponent know what times you like to throw them out, which is what it sounds like your friend is doing. He knows your approach with the lightning kick, expect it, and counters.

Yeah it's sort of been mentioned, but you can follow a lighting kick up with either Nayru's or Din's pretty easily if the move finishes while your still aerial. There are some good applications for this. For instance, you can jump away and kick forwards then Din's as you come out to protect yourself if the opponent tries to follow up against you.


Zelda's approach game is tricky, but your ground approaches are a little bit safer. You can stand out of their hitbox range and abuse your range, running-a, hyphen smash, farore into them when they use a projectile, running grab (which has surprisingly long range), etc. Not the greatest approach game, but still viable.

What Zelda is best at though, is forcing opponents to approach. This works on most characters (obviously not Pit/Wolf/etc). Keep in mind you never have to be aggressive if you don't want to. Especially against Luigi. If you approaches aren't working, make him approach. Let him know you can throw Din's all day long if he never becomes the aggressor.

You seem to have reached the point where Din's isn't super great anymore. Meaning, it gets dodged most of the time. Just keep in mind it still has spacing uses, forces the opponent to approach, etc. Use it as a tool to influence your opponent's behavior, it's not just about damage.
Thanks for all the advice. I definentaly don't use Nayru's enough in the air. Yeah I reached the point with Din's Fire a while ago. I normally play a very reactionary role... try to get him to approach. I do use din's and explode it early when I feel like he is going to approach with a roll and then I punish him with a down smash. Don't get me wrong I think Zelda is one of the best characters to play mind games with :) and she has soo many moves (especially on the ground) to capitalize off of others making mistakes.

I was just curious as to what characters Zelda might be able to approach in the air from a situational standpoint. So far it's sounds like it doesn't matter who I'm going up against... I can't get away with air approaches easy.
 

Pappioll

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 8, 2007
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189
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Sweden
Like Ztarfish said, don't approach with Fair/Bair. Try to punish with them instead. The endinglag will make you vurnerable.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Everyone can spotdodge-punish bair and fair, with little exception.

However, if Luigi's spotdodge is abnormally short, than Nayru's Love is probably unspotdodgeabble. That's good news for you. (some characters can actually spotdodge N Love, with very good timing)

Iris is a girl?
 

Pappioll

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Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
189
Location
Sweden
Everyone can spotdodge-punish bair and fair, with little exception.

However, if Luigi's spotdodge is abnormally short, than Nayru's Love is probably unspotdodgeabble. That's good news for you. (some characters can actually spotdodge N Love, with very good timing)

Iris is a girl?
That's right. If Luigi's spotdodge is short then try to use multihit-moves such as Usmash and NL at close combat. He will probably get cought in it.
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
That's right. If Luigi's spotdodge is short then try to use multihit-moves such as Usmash and NL at close combat. He will probably get cought in it.
Yeah I do use a charged fsmash and my upsmash to punish his spotdodges. I really do need to incorporate Naryu's lvoe in my game more. I only use it to deflect and occasionaly to hit. Thanks for all the information all.
 

Iris

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
532
Yes, I'm a girl. >:O

Anyways, if he knows to time a spotdodge, fake him out with a weak kick. Connect with her body or upper leg rather than the ball on the first frame. The attack hitbox is out long enough that it's easy to punish spotdodging with a weak kick, and comboing into Nayru's isn't difficult at all, even if they roll away from the kick. It's not the most gratifying approach, but it's safer than connecting a strong kick, and Nayru's will push them away enough to regain your position. Also, if they shield you aren't stuck in place, and since a normal person would start defending themselves when you're in range for a strong kick, a weak one will get them while their guard's down, and if not, at least you can get on the other side of them so they can't connect with the majority of their moves without having to spend time turning around.

Still, Zelda's easier to play defensively. It's a lot more risk than award if your opponent knows what to expect from Zelda. If you want to land a lightning kick on a grounded opponent, try predicting their rolls and dodges. Zelda's floaty enough to pull it off, and it's one of the advantages of her tiny jumps.

Also, I'm not avoiding anyone!
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
Yes, I'm a girl. >:O

Still, Zelda's easier to play defensively. It's a lot more risk than award if your opponent knows what to expect from Zelda. If you want to land a lightning kick on a grounded opponent, try predicting their rolls and dodges. Zelda's floaty enough to pull it off, and it's one of the advantages of her tiny jumps.
I love her floatyness :) thanks for the tips.
 

Traumatisch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
22
Location
Alkmaar, Netherlands
IMHO Air-approaches have some merit. Zelda's floatiness and very useful SH qualities give you a lot of options to initiate an approach, and, in case your opponent counters/dodges/blocks, still have time to react to what your opponent does. I'll you some scenario's that I use when approaching from the air.

1) SH an Fair or RAR-Bair but time the kick while you are in the upward motion of the jump (ie. before the peak) and immediately after the kick DI yourself away from your opponent and Din's him. The momentum carrying properties of the Din's make you drift farther away from your opponent, thus keeping you safe from harm. All this should take place very low to the ground to save time on the fall afterwards. Using this tactics is a good way to pressure your opponent while giving them but little opportunity to retaliate lest they risk taking a hit from the Din's. If they do fail to react properly to the Din's, feel free to rush in as your approach has just succeeded ;). This is the one I use most, but try not to OVERuse it as the window IS there albeit small. Rewards can be great though (Lightning kick, or a hit with Din's setting up for juggles)

1a) To mix up your game, use the above, but instead of following your Fair with a backwards Din's, follow it up with a second jump and a fast-falling Nair. This is a good way to capitalize on your opponent dropping shield after the kick and, depending on how your Nair connects, can lead to a juggle or just a single free hit.

1b) When you feel that your opponent is starting to grasp the concept and just keeps up his shield or finds a way to counter or dodge, you are always still free to abort and use your second jump with FF to retreat to safety.

This gives 3 variations on the same startup approach move, giving you plenty of options to mix-up your approach game.

2) Fake out your opponent by running at them, stopping, then when they attack, or shield and drop when they see you're not coming, SH FF an Nair onto their head. Truly, Nair is your most versatile option when combined with proper spacing and FF.

3) Approach using a SH Fair and push it through your opponent (try not to Sweetspot) and fire a Bair at him when your on his backside. Opponent usually let down their guard after they think you whiff your Fair Sweetspot, so take advantage of this. Remember the Lightning Kick timing in a SH ; You can fire 1 Fair and 1 Bair, 2 Bairs or 1 Fair, but not 2 Fairs.

3a) Same principle but instead of a second kick use a Naryu's Love to drag your opponent in front of you. If he misses his tech follow up with a Dash attack or Fsmash.

4) Slow approach by using Din's in a SH and float forward bit by bit.

As said before, approaching from the air with Zelda is not the easiest of times, but I hope this helps. A lot of mixing-up is key. Set your opponent up for these options by running at them, SHing and not doing anything, SHing through them and air-dodging etc. MIX IT UP
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
IMHO Air-approaches have some merit. Zelda's floatiness and very useful SH qualities give you a lot of options to initiate an approach, and, in case your opponent counters/dodges/blocks, still have time to react to what your opponent does. I'll you some scenario's that I use when approaching from the air.

1) SH an Fair or RAR-Bair but time the kick while you are in the upward motion of the jump (ie. before the peak) and immediately after the kick DI yourself away from your opponent and Din's him. The momentum carrying properties of the Din's make you drift farther away from your opponent, thus keeping you safe from harm. All this should take place very low to the ground to save time on the fall afterwards. Using this tactics is a good way to pressure your opponent while giving them but little opportunity to retaliate lest they risk taking a hit from the Din's. If they do fail to react properly to the Din's, feel free to rush in as your approach has just succeeded ;). This is the one I use most, but try not to OVERuse it as the window IS there albeit small. Rewards can be great though (Lightning kick, or a hit with Din's setting up for juggles)

1a) To mix up your game, use the above, but instead of following your Fair with a backwards Din's, follow it up with a second jump and a fast-falling Nair. This is a good way to capitalize on your opponent dropping shield after the kick and, depending on how your Nair connects, can lead to a juggle or just a single free hit.

1b) When you feel that your opponent is starting to grasp the concept and just keeps up his shield or finds a way to counter or dodge, you are always still free to abort and use your second jump with FF to retreat to safety.

This gives 3 variations on the same startup approach move, giving you plenty of options to mix-up your approach game.

2) Fake out your opponent by running at them, stopping, then when they attack, or shield and drop when they see you're not coming, SH FF an Nair onto their head. Truly, Nair is your most versatile option when combined with proper spacing and FF.

3) Approach using a SH Fair and push it through your opponent (try not to Sweetspot) and fire a Bair at him when your on his backside. Opponent usually let down their guard after they think you whiff your Fair Sweetspot, so take advantage of this. Remember the Lightning Kick timing in a SH ; You can fire 1 Fair and 1 Bair, 2 Bairs or 1 Fair, but not 2 Fairs.

3a) Same principle but instead of a second kick use a Naryu's Love to drag your opponent in front of you. If he misses his tech follow up with a Dash attack or Fsmash.

4) Slow approach by using Din's in a SH and float forward bit by bit.

As said before, approaching from the air with Zelda is not the easiest of times, but I hope this helps. A lot of mixing-up is key. Set your opponent up for these options by running at them, SHing and not doing anything, SHing through them and air-dodging etc. MIX IT UP
This was really helpful thank you. I didn't realize that you couldn't do 2 fairs in a SH but you can do 2 bair or 1 bair and 1 fair. I don't do #1 enough and I need to do it more. I really rely on a rolling, spot dodging, mind game, opponent reading, ground strategy. I play random often so I know all of the characters decently. Every characters Nair is good for approaching and I don't use Zelda's as much as I should. Thanks for the post.
 

MRTW113

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
341
The kick has quite the ending lag, at least it does if you're trying to hit a grounded opponent, which he is if he's spotdodging. So I dunno, I don't really think kicks are all that safe of an approach to begin with.
I agree. The kicks are risky as an approach, and if you miss you'll get punished. Stick with longer- ranged attacks, like nair
 

Traumatisch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
22
Location
Alkmaar, Netherlands
Update :

One of the easiest ways to connect a Lightning kick on a grounded opponent is to SH/jump at them, air dodge through them/their attack and immediately on landing SH and Bair them. If you're not being predictable with your approaches and have fast fingers, this is the easiest way to Lightning Kick them in the *** ^^
 

Zephron

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
697
Location
Among the trees in Minnesota
Update :

One of the easiest ways to connect a Lightning kick on a grounded opponent is to SH/jump at them, air dodge through them/their attack and immediately on landing SH and Bair them. If you're not being predictable with your approaches and have fast fingers, this is the easiest way to Lightning Kick them in the *** ^^


I find these things very helpful especially since I dont spotdodge (I'll admit it) at all! These things will probably help me not be so darn predictable, which is prolly why my Zelda game deteriorated. Ty :)

P.S I just made this new Zelda sig... like it? ^_^
EDIT: **** it cut off Q.Q
 

RedSnowman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
154
I find these things very helpful especially since I dont spotdodge (I'll admit it) at all! These things will probably help me not be so darn predictable, which is prolly why my Zelda game deteriorated. Ty :)

P.S I just made this new Zelda sig... like it? ^_^
EDIT: **** it cut off Q.Q
Yeah dawg. Your Zelda sig is tight. Get better at playing her to be worthy of her sig ^^
 
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