Need help: video critique, fox v falco and fox ditto

[knightpraetor]

Please anybody, critique. I could use as much advice as possible..though i wish i had someone nearby to actually practice with:\

I'm not that good..could use some help..a lot of it i recognize as mistakes as well..but it doesn't change the fact that i did it in tournament:\ oh well it happens;p


Losers Finals: Dr Peepee(Falco/Fox) vs Knightpraetor(Fox/Jiggz)

Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjS8_5CrJv0
Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5897TOK2yCs
Round 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkAIE8kob_I

 

[Falcinho]

Against Falco: Use that platforms to dodge the lasers, if he lasers like a gay, platform camp back like a gay

Learn to shine out of shield almost frameperfect (i just buffer the jump with the c-stick) to piss of Falcos that like to pillar a lot (without watching their spacing)

work on your edgeguard, if Falco is off stage he should die in most cases

Fox ditto: You attack to direct what makes your approaches quite predictable, try using fake-approaches like sh - waveland back more and generally watch your spacing more while dashdancing.

 

[RaynEX]

The lack of shine in general was depressing. Especially in the fox ditto. I think you guys went an entire first stock without using shine. LOL.

You need to knock Falco down as Fox and chase him to take his stock. If he's on his feet lasering he is as the advantage. More thunders, more grabs, more shines. Grabs especially...CGs/usmashes/utilts/death combos. You need to kill Falco out of our grab or do crazy damage. Look at it like Fox's pillar on Falco.

 

[FastFox]

You need to shine after every full jumped n-air. It's the falco killer. I understand they may be a bit harder to land with platforms, but work around that. If you're on a platform avoiding lasers and the falco approaches, try falling through with a bair or something, or what I like to do is fall through with a shine then wavedash back onto then off of the platform with a nair or bair, sometimes u-air if you think it will connect.

Shine more! And like Falcinho suggested, time a shine out of your shield in between the falco's dair -> shine pillar. Also, take advantage of jabs and whatnot, especially thunder's combo.

In the fox ditto, you're basically getting owned because of your spacing. Spacing is REALLY important. There was also one point where you N-aired against your opponents shield, then l-cancelled it but jabbed too late and got whomped. Try to be faster on your l-cancel -> ___'s. And like said before. SHINE, SHINE, SHINE.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

^^ how do you guys shine on platforms? i cant do it. do you start tilting it early (like in the lag from the arial) or something?
tilting a little bit doesn't work, if you tilt it just a little bit (like as far as you would if you wanted to dtilt on a platform) you'll just do neutral b and if you tilt it to much you fall through

 

[FastFox]

^^ how do you guys shine on platforms? i cant do it. do you start tilting it early (like in the lag from the arial) or something?
tilting a little bit doesn't work, if you tilt it just a little bit (like as far as you would if you wanted to dtilt on a platform) you'll just do neutral b and if you tilt it to much you fall through

You have to make sure that when you press down to drop through it's really pronounced. I usually just drop through a little bit, then shine, then just modify the timing on my wavedash so that I'm not pressing L/R immediately after my jump, so I end up wavelanding (i guess you could say) on and then off the edge of the platform. It takes practice.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^^ how do you guys shine on platforms? i cant do it. do you start tilting it early (like in the lag from the arial) or something?
tilting a little bit doesn't work, if you tilt it just a little bit (like as far as you would if you wanted to dtilt on a platform) you'll just do neutral b and if you tilt it to much you fall through

Tilting the stick down works if you don't do it suddenly. GRADUALLY tilt the stick to the down position and press b.

 

[FastFox]

Tilting the stick down works if you don't do it suddenly. GRADUALLY tilt the stick to the down position and press b.

Oh I see what he was asking.

lul

 

[RaynEX]

Oh I see what he was asking.

lul

Do you even play anymore? lul

 

[knightpraetor]

so two things:

against bairs...should i even try for a grab or should i just wait after it and go in with a nair...i got tagged twice at bad moments in the green greens match for trying to run in under it and get a grab...

i assume it is possible to get a grab...i can run in and shield the bair for one..but can i get in after the bair if i space well and grab before a shine gets off?

also..i would use the JC shine more..but if you noticed i lost a lot of life the last life on green greens trying to shine out of shield on a fox...and on falco it's just htat much more risky...i rarely get enough time before a tournament to get consistent on complex things like that...

i definitely did miss the shine after a few full jump nairs..i wonder if i was missing the Lcancel or just forgot to shine..i also have a bad tendency to get baited by people when getting on..i need to stop falling for jumping in and then double jumping out of range of any ledge hopped aerials.

oh wow..i've never tried buffering the jump out of the shield...i wonder if that helps

 

[FastFox]

Do you even play anymore? lul

Yup. I'll be at CAST4. I need to practice up though. I just came out of a six month retirement.

 

[RaynEX]

so two things:

against bairs...should i even try for a grab or should i just wait after it and go in with a nair...i got tagged twice at bad moments in the green greens match for trying to run in under it and get a grab...

i assume it is possible to get a grab...i can run in and shield the bair for one..but can i get in after the bair if i space well and grab before a shine gets off?

also..i would use the JC shine more..but if you noticed i lost a lot of life the last life on green greens trying to shine out of shield on a fox...and on falco it's just htat much more risky...i rarely get enough time before a tournament to get consistent on complex things like that...

i definitely did miss the shine after a few full jump nairs..i wonder if i was missing the Lcancel or just forgot to shine..i also have a bad tendency to get baited by people when getting on..i need to stop falling for jumping in and then double jumping out of range of any ledge hopped aerials.

oh wow..i've never tried buffering the jump out of the shield...i wonder if that helps

Using shine vs. Falco works better then using it against Fox. Fox doesn't shut down your movement as much as Falco does, so any time you get to knock him down you need to grab him and punish him. If you can't get through bairs just laser and wait it out. Why approach him and risk dying if he refuses to approach you. Counter-camp his camping until he decides to actually fight you. If you are dead set on running in and being a hero, then dash in and shield. Wait for his shine, then either JC shine or JC usmash. Both are faster than everything he has that isn't a double shine.

 

[knightpraetor]

isn't a grab faster than a JC upsmash?

 

[RaynEX]

No. Grab is 7 or 8 frames...I forget which. JC usmash oos is 6 frames. If you wait for the dair+shine from Falco and block both, then JC usmash oos, you beat his next move if he doesn't double shine.


If he jumps out of his shine and tries to pillar with another dair, your 6 frame usmash will be faster than his 9 frame dair. JC shine is 4 frames I believe.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Grab is 7 frames and usmash is 7 frames. but a JC usmash is 8 frames since it needs to have atleast 1 jump cancel frame /superdoodleman

 

[RaynEX]

Nah man...I think usmash is faster than that. From what I remember its 6. If thats the case, the only reason usmash oos works to beat pillaring is because it hits Falco during his SH out of his shine on your shield. Iuno Mike, I think its flat out faster than grab.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox frames

U Smash

Total: 41
Hit: 7-17
Head invincible (but not snout): 1-9
Charge frame: 2

Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8

 

[RaynEX]

so its hitbox comes out on frame 7? and grab is 8?

you said grab was 7-8...so I guess it depends on the character right? For fox, is his usmash faster than his grab?

 

[knightpraetor]

i remember studying this a long time ago..falco beats anything you can do out of shield if he does a rising dair...but you can shield that dair and then punish..if the falco does a normal dair at the peak of his jump then the only place you can punish is after the shine...if you could perfectly grab after the shine on a normal pillar then people would be able to grab falco 50% of the time...but the reality is that the timing for the properly done pillar requires a 1-2 frame window..so it's almost a given that it's not worth trying for the grab for me

 

[KirbyKaze]

so its hitbox comes out on frame 7? and grab is 8?

you said grab was 7-8...so I guess it depends on the character right? For fox, is his usmash faster than his grab?

no the grab hitbox duration is from 7-8

it starts on 7

i explain things badly lol

when you jc anything just mentally tack on one frame

 

[aJerk]

so the grab will 'hit' one framer from then?

 

[KirbyKaze]

yeeeeeeeeees

 

[Flamin Roy]

so you shouls grab and not u smash

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

play smarter and be less predictable. get faster and dont let down your pace.

thats all you need to know.

edit:: looked a couple posts up, something about grab frames. to clarify, a grab is like any other move it has a duration. it doesnt just hit on 1 frame. you can grab someone on either frame 7 or frame 8, if the hitbox didnt hit on frame 7 but did on frame 8. almost every standing grab(JC = standing grab) is frame7-8 (besides samus/link/yl) and almost every dash grab is slower (usually 11-12 iirc). the only exception is sheiks dash grab which is also frame 7-8 but lasts 10 frames longer if you miss.

 

[BrianTheLion]

first off why the **** would u use white fox its horrible oh and more shines and grabs and against falco with fox don't get shined

 

[KirbyKaze]

spam shine vs falco

tech chase with grab, u-smash, dair, more shines, moves, wavedashes, it doesn't really matter so long as he eventually goes off the stage and dies

 

[Flamin Roy]

i mean i do have a pretty technical fox (i can jump shine cancel use all arials in to a shine continuously and all the basics plus some unneccesary stuff) and what not but now im lost????????

 

[RaynEX]

tech skill isn't everything. learn to use your head. Thats how the pros do it. Smarts > Tech skill.

edge-guarding, match-ups, stage cps and how to use them, approaches, spacing, shield game, platform/ground movement, punish game/combos.

Thats what you focus on if tech skill is starting to bore you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol RaynEX lies.

Tech skill is more important than thinking.

 

[Flamin Roy]

well i agree with him because tech skill is starting to bore me so i will outsmart them

 

[KirbyKaze]

It doesn't work but sure why not.

 

[Flamin Roy]

Thats sounds a lot more like it

 

[DanteFox]

Against Falco: Use that platforms to dodge the lasers, if he lasers like a gay, platform camp back like a gay

Learn to shine out of shield almost frameperfect (i just buffer the jump with the c-stick) to piss of Falcos that like to pillar a lot (without watching their spacing)

work on your edgeguard, if Falco is off stage he should die in most cases

Fox ditto: You attack to direct what makes your approaches quite predictable, try using fake-approaches like sh - waveland back more and generally watch your spacing more while dashdancing.

tell me more about this. how do you do this buffering you speak of?

 

[Oskurito]

You shield then roll with the c-stick. This is called buffering or a buffered roll...

 

[Falcinho]

^Exactly

You can also buffer spotdodges (down on the c-stick) or jumps (up on the c-stick) while shielding.

The good thing about it is that you can just hold R/L+cstick while shielding an attack.
As soon as the hitlag/hitstun (? i always mix them up =S) is over, you will roll/spotdodge/jump.
You will have one frame "buffer-lag" tho afaik.

 

[Flamin Roy]

are you talking about like u smashing out of your shield

 

[Vijin]

On Fox vs Falco, I noticed you got punished for every NAIR you threw at him, but you just kept doing them. He simply wave dashed out of the way because you were attacking where he was standing, as opposed to predicting him wave dashing backwards to avoid the nair.