NC Brocator Thread: IMPORTANT UPDATES!!

[lord karn]

I think the point that the other side is making is that being able to deal with hype and pressure is part of the game.

 

[OmniOstrich]

whoops! I meant to post this one when I said zg was good.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EmLCrieaks

I posted the same link twice. Man I just realized in our recent fox, and even falcon discussions... none of us mentioned mango and m2k's fox...and ****, even pc's fox in his last big tournament set with m2k, ****, that **** was beast. M2k's fox is a little off these days though. And with falcon... m2k, mango, and even cactuar should have prob. been on our lists.

Did ya'll see the recent sheik dittos between amsah and over(GF)? Usually a pretty boring match-up, but they made it somewhat entertaining.

edit: kind of silly to make johns about a crowd affecting m2k when he's been doing this **** for years and years, whether it's true or not. Saying he's the best under certain circumstances is moot. It's a bizarre claim to begin with omni, being that it's not plausible for those circumstances to happen. M2k is not the best currently, and i'd say it's a combination of not devoting himself to a single game(melee), falling apart under pressure(his fault), and m-go.

Its not impossible as I said with other games its always like that. I would also say that in friendlies amongst only a few people (aka not at tournaments) or small local tournaments M2K really shines.

Like you say though its the tournament results that count so until M2K can make his consistency in tournament equal to his consistency in friendlies it doesn't matter that he has hundreds more 4-stock victories over players our current fruity child champ only 2stocks.

I think the point that the other side is making is that being able to deal with hype and pressure is part of the game.

Its a part of tournaments not the game, but I understand.

 

[Dorsey]

omni..you're saying that m2k is better when he's not under pressure than when he is--we all know that. You can say that about 99% of the smash scene to an extent. Choking under pressure is life, period, and the ability to NOT choke is an important skill of this game, not just in tournament.

 

[Foxy]

Dorsey, again... next time you're autistic, tell me how you deal with pressure/anxiety/crowds.

Yes, it's johns, but it's an actual mental disorder, not "tourney nerves".

Obviously, though, he wouldn't be such an amazing player if he wasn't autistic, so it goes hand-in-hand, but for the sake of the discussion, I think we can agree

1. In a vacuum, M2K is definitely the best player in the world
2. In a power-rankings situation, M2K is somewhere in the top 5

 

[-ACE-]

Obviously, though, he wouldn't be such an amazing player if he wasn't autistic, so it goes hand-in-hand, but for the sake of the discussion, I think we can agree

1. In a vacuum, M2K is definitely the best player in the world
2. In a power-rankings situation, M2K is somewhere in the top 5

You can't say that his autism is "obviously" the only reason why he's a top player lol.

Mango is the best. M2K is second. Then probably Hbox at this point. It's too hard to say for sure.

Oh and best Foxes imo = Mango, M2K, Jman, Colbol. That is, if you don't count l0zR.

 

[Dorsey]

Dude... you are turning this into a debate about how significantly autism affects his performance opposed to just smash skills. I mean saying that "obviously he wouldn't be a top player if it wasn't for his autism" is ********. Why isn't there more autistic top smashers? You're basing this off the logic that some kids with autism have a natural ability for instruments like piano.........that's not all cases of autism. He has a very minor case of it in comparison to what I've seen anyways.

Nevertheless, autism should not be a part of this discussion....'OBVIOUSLY'. The only _relevant_ point it makes is that if there as a SSO(smash special olympics) he would be champion...lol

I don't know what's worse... autism johns when determining the level a player's on or darksyde's inui logic.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Whoops. Didn't mean to start a debate.

I don't really want to weigh in much more on the debate but look at the matches vs. Armada at Genesis. Those Marth vs. Peach matches at FD were astonishing on M2K's part and he barely lost. Mango's Falco got ***** by Armada and he had to pick Jiggs...

We all know how I feel about Jiggs. haha

Point being, Mango's Falco makes so many tech errors which his mindgames make up for whereas M2K just doesn't mess up. There is no reason why M2K should ever lose to Mango other than I think M2K has a mental block and is autistic so he can't deal with all the noise well. /autism johns

On another subject, hahaha at Colbol being the best Fox. He's really good, don't get me wrong, but Jman is a lot better. Jman 2 or 3 stocked PP (I can't remember) while PP beat Colbol. Granted there were a few months in between but until I see some serious proof otherwise, Jman is best Fox, hands down.

Anybody want to play with me today in Raleigh around noon or something? I'm still here for a few hours.

Inui logic ftw.

Let's do something similar:

M2K 3 stocks Jman for funsies at HERB2 in winners semis or something. M2K loses a match to colbol(and almost a set) in winners semis of to5. Is Colbol better through the inui logic of m2k? No.

 

[-ACE-]

PP played abnormally bad vs Jman, it was pretty apparent imo. Not that Jman's gimps weren't spot on.

 

[Foxy]

You can't say that his autism is "obviously" the only reason why he's a top player lol.

Nahhh I didn't mean it like that, just that... it really is a trade-off, and while there are plenty of amazing players who definitely aren't autistic, it absolutely is a contributing factor to his ability, even if he could have been a national-level player otherwise.

Dude... you are turning this into a debate about how significantly autism affects his performance opposed to just smash skills. I mean saying that "obviously he wouldn't be a top player if it wasn't for his autism" is ********. Why isn't there more autistic top smashers? You're basing this off the logic that some kids with autism have a natural ability for instruments like piano.........that's not all cases of autism. He has a very minor case of it in comparison to what I've seen anyways.

Nevertheless, autism should not be a part of this discussion....'OBVIOUSLY'. The only _relevant_ point it makes is that if there as a SSO(smash special olympics) he would be champion...lol

I don't know what's worse... autism johns when determining the level a player's on or darksyde's inui logic.

I can guarantee I know more about autism than you.

I'm not talking about idiot savants here, with those absurd skills, but specifically autism and Asperger's. He definitely has Asperger's fully and probably then some, but as you said, he clearly isn't 100% autistic, because those people aren't functional. And Asperger's is almost recategorized now as simply a mental difference rather than disability, because it always detracts from certain perceptual abilities (which affect the social/physical behavior) and certain mental capabilities but also enhances many cognitive skills, specifically the ability to concentrate intensely on one skill or interest, the ability to pay unusual attention to small details, and then simply mental quickness/IQ.

It's not freaking johns. The johns aren't even that much - it's simply that he cannot deal with pressure/anxiety at all compared to most players, and other players (MAY I CITE COLBOL AS AN EXAMPLE HERE) suffer from "choking" and "tournament nerves" at top levels even without disabilities. If they can john about it, while being perfectly capable of fixing the problem, he sure as hell can.

Unfortunately, there are no SSS, but it's awesome how amazing he is at the game anyways. He doesn't need extra help or favor, and I just hope he finds a way around the anxiety blocks again.

And again, like I said before, I'm perfectly aware and fine with the fact that in a power-ranking approach, he is likely 2nd or 3rd in the US. That's just the result of his recent tournament results. I still believe that in his literal skill at the game, "in a vacuum", he's more capable than any other player. I'm not saying, though, that he will ever be able to realize that potential. And it's just my hypothesis.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I meant to add I played like a ****** vs Jman. Then I had chops training and Twitch reinforcement and now I can fight higher level Foxes well. If I rematch Jman then my new ability will be reflected in that.

I don't care if you believe me or not. It's what happened and I want the meatriders on that dang youtube video to S mah D.

 

[Foxy]

I agree with you, PP... you didn't play your best and I thought you seemed kinda shaken.

 

[lord karn]

Related to M2K having Asperger's, I think that it is possible that some people with autism/asperger's have a better ability to focus under intense pressure. As you said, one of the characteristics of Asperger's is that you can focus intensely on one specific/set of skills. People with Asperger's tend to develop mental blocks more easily and also probably tend to be flustered/frustrated more easily. This is not the same as pressure, though. M2K probably will lose to Mango most of the time because of his mental block. On the other hand, he loses to some other random people occasionally because he messes up under pressure, which I don't think is necessarily because of Asperger's.

 

[Cactuar]

*walks into the NC thread randomly, looks around*

*walks out*

 

[Dr Peepee]

Cactuar for best ever.

 

[Foxy]

Related to M2K having Asperger's, I think that it is possible that some people with autism/asperger's have a better ability to focus under intense pressure. As you said, one of the characteristics of Asperger's is that you can focus intensely on one specific/set of skills. People with Asperger's tend to develop mental blocks more easily and also probably tend to be flustered/frustrated more easily. This is not the same as pressure, though. M2K probably will lose to Mango most of the time because of his mental block. On the other hand, he loses to some other random people occasionally because he messes up under pressure, which I don't think is necessarily because of Asperger's.

Well, by pressure I was more specifically referring to social pressure. I agree that sometimes it increases the ability to focus under pressure.

I however don't believe that M2K loses to random people, not in comparison to other players. M2K rarely loses friendlies and has always been WAY more consistent in tournament (up until recently) than almost any other player. Mango is someone who actually loses to random people... remember when he almost lost to SS in grand finals? He's had tons of close sets and lost tons of friendlies, and maybe he just sandbags, but M2K is a lot more consistent than that.

*walks into the NC thread randomly, looks around*

*walks out*

EYYYY BOYS, WE CAUGHT ONE

 

[null55]

Colbol beat Hbox. I don't give a ****, he's my favorite fox of all time.

Besides Twitch.

 

[Foxy]

I don't like Colbol...

 

[lord karn]

Yeah, Mango sandbags all the time. I don't think it really matters how hard he beats people as long as he actually wins the set.

M2K lost to Zhu and HBox. I think he would beat both outside of pressure. I also think the reason he loses to Mango has something to do with pressure, but mostly with his mental block.

Interestingly enough, M2k always ***** in crews, which is really high pressure.

 

[null55]

lol NC threads are definitely the best.

 

[Foxy]

Yeah, Mango sandbags all the time. I don't think it really matters how hard he beats people as long as he actually wins the set.

M2K lost to Zhu and HBox. I think he would beat both outside of pressure. I also think the reason he loses to Mango has something to do with pressure, but mostly with his mental block.

Interestingly enough, M2k always ***** in crews, which is really high pressure.

Yeah, I find the crews to be odd, because I always feel that crews have more social pressure. Maybe it's because he's not as worried about losing in crews, because it won't really go on his permanent record - so, less of a mental block.

Mango is definitely a mental block. Too many losses...

 

[Criosphinx]

I'm sorry, but this debate is ridiculous.

Being "The best" at something comes with a certain stigma. You will be rooted against (in most cases), you will be heckled, you will be spectated.

Acute mental disorders do not exonerate you from that stigma. It's stupid, yes. It's also life. What defines a player at a professional level in ANYTHING is their ability to cope with these situations. Some thrive off it, some are hindered, handicapped, or even distraught by such things.

You can't say "M2K is the best player in the world when nobody is watching." That is a tree falls theory, and it's straw man at BEST. When you want to decide who the "best" is, you look at all situations.

And the statistics do not lie. Mango is able to react to any situation with optimal results. He is the superior player. It's common sense.

 

[null55]

i believe the point of "no johns" is to focus very exclusively on the blatant results.

it's pretty much a philosophy that's made to throw these types of debates into the "wow, none of these ****s know ****" pile.


speculating is very fun though! i like everyone's opinion.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"No johns" was invented to keep noobs from whining about competitive players WD'ing and edgeguarding.

Stupid people thought it would be fun if they expanded that into excuses(that are sometimes legitimate) people make for losing which pisses me off.

 

[null55]

"No johns" was invented to keep noobs from whining about competitive players WD'ing and edgeguarding.

Stupid people thought it would be fun if they expanded that into excuses(that are sometimes legitimate) people make for losing which pisses me off.

that's actually incorrect. "no johns" is based off a player from Texas (named John), who would make a **** ton of excuses when he played the game, so everyone, pretty much literally, just substituted the word "excuses" for the name of the guy who gave a lot of them. information from the mouth of HugS.

by "the point", i meant the most functional purpose. i like "no johns" in that it makes people (or at least should make people) keep their whiny **** to themselves. you win or you lose. the end.

not to say that i don't whine. i should make attempts to completely stop.


EDIT: i think he explains the origin of the phrase in this video.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well then I read a post somewhere that misinformed me.

It still pisses me off.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Me and PP debated "No Johns" at TO5.

Funny stuff ensued.

 

[Foxy]

I'm sorry, but this debate is ridiculous.

Being "The best" at something comes with a certain stigma. You will be rooted against (in most cases), you will be heckled, you will be spectated.

Acute mental disorders do not exonerate you from that stigma. It's stupid, yes. It's also life. What defines a player at a professional level in ANYTHING is their ability to cope with these situations. Some thrive off it, some are hindered, handicapped, or even distraught by such things.

You can't say "M2K is the best player in the world when nobody is watching." That is a tree falls theory, and it's straw man at BEST. When you want to decide who the "best" is, you look at all situations.

And the statistics do not lie. Mango is able to react to any situation with optimal results. He is the superior player. It's common sense.

M2K is better than Mango.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Mango is better than M2K.

No johns Foxy.

 

[stingers]

mango is the most dominant smasher in the history of the game

ken would get whipped by isai, dsf, sastopher, kdj, azen, chillin, chudat, etc. from time to time. ken was better on average but he was not very dominant. mlg new york anyone?

m2k randomly falls apart in key situations, i mean hey he just got whipped by hbox at to5. sure his reign was already over by that time but it shows how he doesnt really play up to his full potential all the time like a champion should be able to. look at genesis...

mango...doesn't lose. armada is the only person who's come close, and tbqh I think mango was just sandbagging him so he could have the "epic comeback". having the $100 in 1's ready just after his victory is just...so arrogant. i do think his falco genuinely lost, but his puff is just...too good

 

[null55]

Well then I read a post somewhere that misinformed me.

It still pisses me off.

idk, i like that function. kevin, i know you're amazing at this game. you know your really good. if you **** up a lot in a friendly or a pools match against me, i don't understand why you would have to verbally assure me and the public that you ****ed up. you know you ****ed up, w/e, we know your good. if anything, me profiting from your **** up would improve my confidence, and even if such a boost is misplaced, it is a boost, and i would benefit from it, y'know?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Me and PP debated "No Johns" at TO5.

Funny stuff ensued.

Man I SO won that argument. =p



Edit: this is true, Cam. I don't mean to verbalize it, but sometimes I can't help it. I'll learn to shut up.

 

[null55]

Yeah, Ima **** you up at this game soon, though.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Man I SO won that argument. =p



Edit: this is true, Cam. I don't mean to verbalize it, but sometimes I can't help it. I'll learn to shut up.

No you didnt. Seven can tell you that I won.

Also, I dont think it should matter if somebody verbalizes their mess ups. Honestly, if it was I who beat Kevin and he was talking about how bad he messed up, I wouldnt give a ****. I STILL WON! And I would still go around telling everyone.

 

[stingers]

i beat kevin a lot...@.@

 

[Zero_Gamer]

M2K and Mango are bound to have chlamydia or something with everyone riding their d*cks. Not PP though, his d*ck is squeaky clean.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Looooooooooooooooooooooool

edit: more lulz

 

[stingers]

Just stating a fact, bro.

^

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol I know where you got that from.

 

[stingers]

ZoSo is a well full of unintentional humor

 

[-ACE-]

M2K is better than Mango.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY