Nana CPU theory. question

[Dabuz]

Before asking my question, i gotta explain the reasoning behind this.

As everyone should know by now, brawl CPUs have a tendency to pick up the traits, habits, and play styles that real people use...to some extent, this is especially apparent in a lvl 9 CPU.

With this train of thought, i came to wonder, could Nana's AI be different on a wii to wii basis because of different play-styles?

 

[Sieguest]

Probably, but it wouldn't differ too much, there's only so much a climber can do solo. As long as Popo isn't *incapacitated* (e.g. frozen, flying away during the ceiling KO animation, Popo is grabbed etc.) Then the only things Nana will do is move directly towards Popo (She'll IB if she's offstage to recover). If Popo is in a state where he is *incapacitated* then Nana will act of her accord.

Since the moments where Popo is *incapacitated* at the longest only happens for a few seconds it's near impossible to tell if Nana actually does this and if she did, as I said earlier, it wouldn't make too much of a difference due to her being solo.

 

[-LzR-]

As everyone should know by now, brawl CPUs have a tendency to pick up the traits, habits, and play styles that real people use...to some extent, this is especially apparent in a lvl 9 CPU.

NOT true at all. We have proved this rumor to be false. CPU doesn't learn at all. That kind of AI would be way too advanced. This isn't RPS or chess, this is Brawl. It's realtime, there are many factors, not just RPS: Spacing, mindgames and the statistics of different moves. It would be impossible for todays AI and if it was there I am sure it would have been overhyped in the Dojo to get customers.

Also if Nana did learn, it would suck for us IC players.

 

[swordgard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy


CPUs don't learn, its just our mind thats trying to explain what they do when we do not know their inner working that well, so we assume they just copy. There is no proof behind that theory, besides taking in whatever you consider "habit" arbitrarily and then omitting what is not.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Before asking my question, i gotta explain the reasoning behind this.

As everyone should know by now, brawl CPUs have a tendency to pick up the traits, habits, and play styles that real people use...to some extent, this is especially apparent in a lvl 9 CPU.

With this train of thought, i came to wonder, could Nana's AI be different on a wii to wii basis because of different play-styles?

Nope, as said not too long ago, nana's cpu does what it wants, but tries to stay along certain guidelines (unless popo is 'incapacitated').

We COULD try to figure out how she would act, since DK's side b headbutt auto-incapcitates a character and you can find out what she does. But all that happens is she behaves like a high level cpu.

 

[Judo777]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy


CPUs don't learn, its just our mind thats trying to explain what they do when we do not know their inner working that well, so we assume they just copy. There is no proof behind that theory, besides taking in whatever you consider "habit" arbitrarily and then omitting what is not.

How do you know that the cpu doesn't just remember and emulate imputs that we do frequently. I have a hard time believing that my Snake that only ftilt first hits until it connects and dthrow tech chases regularly and is not related to it emulating play.

I have also seen strange phenomenon like IC's using grounded up b to save nana from getting hit by thunder up in the air, not to mention the cpu LOVES to crouch repeatedly over and over instead of taunting.

 

[Exceladon City]

I couple of my CPUs do B Reverse specials on a number of occasions.

 

[Judo777]

I couple of my CPUs do B Reverse specials on a number of occasions.

my snake B reverse nades almost everytime he pulls em (which i do for fun all the time i play)

 

[-LzR-]

No they don't reverse nades don't spread lies.

They won't learn ****.
How would the CPU know something like reverse nade? You are just pressing B and inputting another direction. The CPU doesn't see, they don't notice and see you change momentum. They just see you inputting B and backwards. That is all.

Also my CPU also crouches all the time and I never do it. It's coded in the game.

People who believe that thing, do you know anything about AI?

 

[EverAlert]

Whether or not CPUs gain any deep understanding of the game is of course questionable, however it is very obvious that they do try to copy human play at least on some level. I've done a few tests myself on the topic, one of which was with a few others by playing Falcon 4-ways using 100% falcon punch for roughly an hour. After this test, literally at least half of what the Falcon CPU did in regular games was falcon punch.

I'm not saying they "learn" in the sense a human would, but whether they simply use your favourite moves or copy common input sequences or something else, there is clearly some kind of copying going on. "My CPU has a habit that I don't" doesn't really prove otherwise, and nobody's saying they copy every little detail.


Anyway, as far as Nana goes, I am fairly certain she doesn't "learn" or copy or anything. At least, I never feel my Nana acts any differently on different Wiis, even when traveling interstate/intercountry.

 

[-LzR-]

The Falcon Punch test doesn't really prove anything. They just notice you using it and then adapt to it like they are programmed. Why don't you do so that you play against a lv9 Falcon for an hour without doing anything, count the amount of punches. Then spam Falcon punch a lot and then run the test again. If there was a significant difference, it should tell something, which isn't learning, but adapting to stuff.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The CPU just has advance AI to begin with that allows it to respond to various scenarios. After that it has AI to respond to inputs you make. I think its so called learning ability is attributed to a randomness factor that is placed in the CPU to give it somewhat of a chance against the same strategy each time. But overall, it will follow the same predictable pattern each time.

This is what makes playing falco against a lv 9 Samus so frustrating. When falco runs away, samus is hell bent on trying to charge up her charge shot and no matter how long you fire lasers at it, it will continue to try to charge lasers. It is only when you get close enough or try to spam ground lasers will it revert from this strategy, or it completes its powershot.

Overall, I cannot fathom the CPU learning at all.

 

[Rubberbandman]

First rule of computer programming: Computers are ****ing ********.

They can't "learn", they can only pull up random things and trick us into thinking its not random. Which is why nana can run off stage and all sorts of random stuff when you get grabbed.

 

[S0L3R]

First rule of computer programming: Computers are ****ing ********.

They can't "learn", they can only pull up random things and trick us into thinking its not random. Which is why nana can run off stage and all sorts of random stuff when you get grabbed.

'
Computers can't "learn" but they sure can "remember". I personal don't believe this, however my Fox CPU does like to Shine Spike me alot.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Of course computers can recall inputs, that is how the replay system works.

 

[-LzR-]

And in practice they don't remember that. They are just told what to do.

 

[Fuujin]

'
Computers can't "learn" but they sure can "remember". I personal don't believe this, however my Fox CPU does like to Shine Spike me alot.

Then what distinguishes what the computer should remember and repeat?
Are you implying the computer remembers strategies and is able to distinguish what are viable strategies from just spamming one move over and over and picks the viable options to utilize within a match?
You guys are giving them far too much credit, the computers do what they're programmed to.
If the AI did remember what human players do when they're playing, they wouldn't be able to discern what to use to win a match, it's just a computer.

Like that guy said, the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, you guys are just looking for a way to explain the actions the CPU does that you don't understand.

It's actually pretty ridiculous to assume this when you have an inkling of how the AI works.

 

[-LzR-]

AI is super hard to program. Especially for a game like this. This is not an FPS game where the bots automatically shoot you in the head. Even in those they are programmed to go in waypoints and such. No such thing in Brawl.

 

[EverAlert]

The Falcon Punch test doesn't really prove anything. They just notice you using it and then adapt to it like they are programmed. Why don't you do so that you play against a lv9 Falcon for an hour without doing anything, count the amount of punches. Then spam Falcon punch a lot and then run the test again. If there was a significant difference, it should tell something, which isn't learning, but adapting to stuff.

Uhh, ok...

What part of "I'm not saying they learn" didn't you understand?

And what part of "literally at least half of what the Falcon CPU did in regular games was falcon punch" didn't you understand (particularly the "literally" part)?

I'm not going to waste 2 hours re-doing the test just so you can get some "legit numbers". Before the test, the falcon cpu did maybe 2-3 falcon punches per game at most. After the test, literally half its' moves or more were falcon punches, including in ridiculous instances where if you were offstage it would jump off after you and try to falcon punch you.

Even without recording actual falcon punch counts, it was quite obvious that there was a significant difference in its move choices. If this isn't proof of at least some type of mimicry, then I don't know what is.

LzR, you seem to think we're saying the AI learns on a complex level. Nobody said this. All we are saying is they try to mimic humans in a very limited fashion. My falcon punch test proves that, if a human does falcon punch a lot, then the CPU will also have a tendency to falcon punch a lot. The test was never to determine that the CPU will falcon punch in exactly the same situations and with exactly the same spacings as a human would. Simply having the AI recall an input sequence is trivial to program. Determining common input sequences based on play records is also trivial in programming.



Sorry for the heated tone, but it kind of annoys me when people just ignore what you say, or add in factors to your argument that you simply never said. >.>

 

[-LzR-]

So do you mean it's only for the current situation or even works for the next games?

 

[Rubberbandman]

The CPU is made to copy a series of inputs until it see that a human C. Falcon has input a different series of moves sequentially and will copy that. In other words it will keep doing Falcon Punch after every other move until you place different moves into its "recall system".

 

[S0L3R]

Then what distinguishes what the computer should remember and repeat?
Are you implying the computer remembers strategies and is able to distinguish what are viable strategies from just spamming one move over and over and picks the viable options to utilize within a match?
You guys are giving them far too much credit, the computers do what they're programmed to.
If the AI did remember what human players do when they're playing, they wouldn't be able to discern what to use to win a match, it's just a computer.

Like that guy said, the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, you guys are just looking for a way to explain the actions the CPU does that you don't understand.

It's actually pretty ridiculous to assume this when you have an inkling of how the AI works.

All no, I total agree with you. I don't beleive the AI can learn from you actions. I was just clearing up that computers do remember things, but not like chaingrabs.

I can relate to what you mean about how the AI works, I've done some video game programing before.

 

[EverAlert]

So do you mean it's only for the current situation or even works for the next games?

across games, of course. we played many games during the hour or so, and then vs'd the cpu in a separate game after that. there was no cpu in the games during the hour.

 

[-LzR-]

You are a smash researcher guy. Couldn't you dig into the AI files of Falcon or something or is that out of your area?

 

[Rubberbandman]

...Seriously?

No, really, you REALLY want to bring in that instead of believing a simple observation?

 

[-LzR-]

Well I have myself done that Falcon thing a year ago or so. It worked, but I doubt it's because of some kind of data. I want dataaaaaa.

 

[EverAlert]

Well, last I checked they were still working on cracking AI files.

But I agree with Enda, some things are just obvious with smart observation.

 

[-LzR-]

Well anyways, I think they would have mentioned something in the Dojo. Let's just wait then until the AI is cracked.

 

[DeLux]

Man, I can't believe I've missed this thread. Using the control panel and I'm the only that writes new threads anymore so I haven't looked at just the IC's forum itself. haha


My official statement:
I believe in -LzR-


Take that Nathaniellllll

 

[EverAlert]

Son, don't even get me started on how disappointed I am.

It's like looking truth in the face and kicking it with a horse.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Lux be trollin.

 

[S0L3R]

Man, I can't believe I've missed this thread. Using the control panel and I'm the only that writes new threads anymore so I haven't looked at just the IC's forum itself. haha


My official statement:
I believe in -LzR-


Take that Nathaniellllll

Are you talking to me or e_alert? Cause my name is Nathaniel too.

 

[Rubberbandman]

he was talking to e_a, we dont even know who you are.

 

[S0L3R]

he was talking to e_a, we dont even know who you are.

lol, just checking. *I'm New btw*

 

[EverAlert]

wow, that's actually pretty ****, nathaniel's a really rare name.

including you I know of like 3 nathaniels other than me.

 

[Sieguest]

Josh>Nathaniel

IMTNBO

 

[Rubberbandman]

wow, that's actually pretty ****, nathaniel's a really rare name.

including you I know of like 3 nathaniels other than me.

I know of no other Eians. Especially spelled the way my name is spelled.

 

[S0L3R]

wow, that's actually pretty ****, nathaniel's a really rare name.

including you I know of like 3 nathaniels other than me.

I only know three other Nathaniel's including you. Surprised, since if I do find someone named Nathaniel, they'e spelled different (Nathanael).

 

[EverAlert]

Yeah same, you're the only Nathaniel I know that is spelled exactly the same. The other two are both spelt Nathanial.

 

[DeLux]

lol at this thread now. Take it to the social Nathaniels