My thoughts on why Peach is falling behind in the metagame

[JFox]

Warning: This post is very long, and not well written, but makes some good points nonetheless.

You may or may not have noticed that Fox especially, and in some ways Falco as well, has been ****** melee's metagame. Fox at high level is becoming an incredible force to the point where Fox is probably the most played character in just about every tournament.

A good part of the reason is because Fox players put a lot of time into pushing their character to the limit of his potential. This can hardly be said of peach players. No one has really pushed Peach to her fullest TACTICAL potential, or even came close. Think about all that you CAN imagine doing with Fox, and how much of that is not already done? I would say that somewhere around 90% of what you can imagine doing is already done nowadays with Fox. Now imagine everything that Peach CAN do, and how little of that is seen in tourney play.

Quick background on me: I used to be a Fox main (duh). I used to put countless hours into practicing Fox tech skill, and I STILL had bad tech skill. I would say I've put in about 10-15% of the same effort into Peach's tech skill, and yet I'd say I'm more technical than 90% of the Peach players in this community. It wasn't even a challenge to get to where I am, I even feel like I'm being lazy. There's still SOO much more to unlock, but no one even tries.

My honest opinion is that Fox vs Peach is 60/40, and if it weren't because of laser spam, I would change that to 50/50. But Peach's get ***** vs Fox. Fox is the type of character that if you don't capitalize properly when you get an opening, you will get ***** for it. Most peach's mess up a lot of dumb stuff out of laziness to practice tech skill.

By technical game, I don't just mean FC's. I mean anything that takes strong execution to perform. This can be smash DI (probably one of the most helpful elements to fighting Fox), low percent chaingrabs, combo'ing, certain gimps, and yes FCs too.

Now people might say "smash is about being smart not technical" and I would say BULLSH*T. Mindgames give you openings, and but a lack of tech skill gives your opponent an opening. If you f*** up an edgegaurd, you deserve to get *****. Likewise, if the opponent misses an Lcancel, they deserve to get Dsmash'd. Close up those technical gaps in your game and you will find Fox to be a more defeatable opponent.

Look at Mew2King's Marth. When it gets a grab, how often does Fox lose his stock? That is because Mew2King's Marth is the most technical Marth in the world. Peach may not be as good as Marth, but she certainly has the tools to exploit an opening when she gets one. If people didn't absolutely suck at edgeguarding (yea I said it), maybe people would gimp like M2k's Marth.

Just look at how the metagame changed when spacies started focusing on pillars. Peach also has a pillar guys...use it! It's not even difficult. All it takes is some practice time at home getting used to the timing of shield hitlag and a few hours of FC nair practice.

I'm sick of hearing Peach mains saying how bad Peach is. A bad character is one that is very limited to the point where you feel like you have hit a ceiling and there's nothing else you can do to improve your characters technique, and so you are getting ***** (ie bowser). Peach is so far from this it's unbelievable.

Realistic tech skill I'd like to see become more commonplace:

~30-death chaingrabs
smash DI on Fox's Uair
smash DI to grab on Fox and Falco's Dair
powershield dsmash on Falco's Dair
Pillaring
FC uair combos
FC nair combos
Shield cancel using double jump (completely untapped)

OK, discuss...

 

[Rain(ame)]

I concur...and I guess I've always been discouraged from a lot of things. I've realized, though, that half the time I'm discouraged from something, it winds up working out in the long run.

The best stock I EVER took from Reik was when I hit him with a bunch of DJC and FC Uairs. I personalyl feel like the move hasn't been used to it's fullest potential by American Peach players. However, you do see it used quite a bit by Armada.

DJC out of sheild was discouraged because FC out of Sheild was faster. I personally feel it's actually a much safer option with less chance of screwups.

We've had countless discussions on pillaring...without a mixup it's useless

FC to grab.....always encouraged...I personally could stand to remember it more...though I do use it at times.

FC Nair combos...fun...FUN....FUUUUN stuff, xD. It surprises the heck out of people when you connect with 'em, too, xD.

Powersheild to Downsmash...it's dangerous with all the Falcos improving their tech skill. There are more learning from Shiz and Eggm about how useful it is to start your Dair lower to the ground. The lower it is, the more impossible it is to do something out of it. I still think it's a better option than trying to grab them, though. Falco's Shine as always been an issue.

Anything involving Smash DI should be practiced hard body. If you want REALLY good Smash DI practice, I suggest playing 64. Otherwise, start learning how to do it with the help of a friend or handicap with the computer. I learned how to double Smash DI Ganon's Dair with the help of my friend. It works...it really worls.

Chaingrabs...I gotta remember it, xD. I've gotten better on mindgaming into grabs, but half the time I don't go for the chain grabs. Playing Sheik has made me more aware of it, though, xD.



Personally I feel that DI is especially important, and reading a Fox player as well. KNOW when the Usmash is coming. A lot of times they'll try to catch you out of the air or just as you land. DI that....double stick DI for goodness sakes. It works charms and I've done it. Survived a Fox's Usmash at 90% on Yoshi's Story. Actually...I went nowhere, xD. JFox is right....the best Peach players had a good mix of aggressiveness and tactical prowess to them. They also had amazing tech skill. Most peach players (myself included) tend to lack on the tech skill side. Lately, I, myself have been working so much harder on it, and also not missing an opportunity to tech moves, in general. Improvement on tech and DI are essential to keeping Peach alive. Surviving to 200%+ on YS? Been there...dozens of times, xD.

Edgeguarding...yeah...again....improvement is needed. I rarely see Peach's Fair being used to grab sweetspoters from below. It's a great technique that isn't used much. Also....I think mindgames for Peach's Edgeguarding should be looked in to MORE, as well.


I just thought I'd kick start this...I know what I said probably isn't all right...but I know I'm not completely wrong, either.

 

[nawnscents]

Very motivating posts. There seems to be a cycle though.. lack of competent Peach players results in same ol' Peach metagame, and vice versa.

I do hope some new things are implemented in her game but on its face this doesn't look good -- she seems to be the most limited out of the top, what, 7-8 characters.

 

[_Keno_]

You're completely right, us peach players are way too lazy. There is talk about moving peach down the tier-list too... D=

I've actually already made 2 topics about peach's djc (both which were completely ignored or dismissed). I'm pretty sure she is the only character that can use the djc to smash out of a shield, and its fairly quick too.

Also, whats the best way to practice smash DI? I live pretty far from other smashers, so I would have to do it myself. Its something I really need to improve on, as well as many peach players.

 

[Shakugan]

I agree with you Jfox we need to upgrade Peach. We need to sit down and break down all of peach's tools. The problem with peach is that people see what works and never try to make it better.


I have to say that i was one of those players but as i played more and learned more i began on my tech skill. I would practice peach's FC nairs, fairs,bairs, and uairs for a good 2-3 hours a day.

We need to break old habits and try to play the way we think we should not what we see. I used to want to play like vidjo when i first started to play peach but shortly after i know i couldn't do it his style is too boring Then i sa Xif i was like holy snap peach could do that then i tryed to learn it. Then i did learn it lol

Now my play style is crazy because i can do all the crazy tech skill things like Xif and play safe like Vidjo.

But someone who did things different with peach was dark peach. The way he played and the things he did gave peach some new light he just had bad habits and just like everyone else made mistakes at the wrong time.

I need to see more up-B combos more up air combos, and a lil but not a lot we need the peach bomber lol

Shakugan, maybe im a lion

 

[Samochan]

~30-death chaingrabs
smash DI on Fox's Uair
smash DI to grab on Fox and Falco's Dair
powershield dsmash on Falco's Dair
Pillaring
FC uair combos
FC nair combos
Shield cancel using double jump (completely untapped)

OK, discuss...

You do realise that not cort or chu dat or anyone else for that matter can smash di fox's uair with 100% accuracy? >_> So it would be really unfair to demand such things from us other peach players. For some reason I always manage to smash di this one on the opposite direction where I should be di'ing so no wonder why I'm failing on it, but fortunately smash di is not the only way to deter a fox from uairing you. DI back on their uthrow is one way, nairing and floathing/aerial dodging asap are another.

Anyways... I've never really done chaingrabs from 30%, because I get a grab from 0% and then dsmash or after a dsmash, meaning around 40% or so. What I've been experimenting with the chaingrab is the weak dash attack armada has used on one of the vids, which you can start using at around 110-120% or so into another grab till 140-150% or so, after which a simple nair will end that spacey's life. If they don't di at around 80%, weak ftilt and continue cg, if they don't di after 120% uair their *****, if they do di after 80% continue cg and after 120% or so if they di, weak dash attack and continue cg. :3 You only need to start the dash attack at the earliest point, if you do it on too low% you hit them away from you as you hit with the frontal hitbox and not the upper part of it.

Powershield to dsmash... I guess it could work, but only if the falco hits your shield way before he touches the ground, otherwise he can and will shine you before you manage to dsmash him. Same with other stuff outta shield, falco needs to hit peach's sheild early so he suffers hitstun earlier and gets out of it earlier. Powershield dsmash is also risky approach to take since doing that perfectly onto dsmash and requiring falco to actually mess up... the possibilities for that to happen are very low and it's only useful at low% unless falco pushes down and tries to shine, resulting in bad di. As peach needs to play careful, mistakes from her part can cost her a lot, better be safe than sorry. Wavedashes, rolls, fc aerials, parasols and even upsmashes and well timed grabs from shield are more reliable defensive maneuvers against falco's dair than powershielding.

Smash di against fox's dair is more useful when they're full jumping it and using momentum and peach needs a really good smash di to gain advantage of it since she doesn't slide much. I prefer to shield or slap, 2 framers instead of 7 frame grab can get me out more reliably than something slower, even if there's less chance on me capitalising on it (again, better be safe than sorry). Against falco one needs to slide quite far and have low% to gain any advantage of this smash di, since he won't be in front of you for long and most likely will be long gone with his shine jumping or dashing away and going for his lasers. Smash di won't help against dair's spike properties, so peach'll just drop to the ground when your percentage grows and in low% it still stuns quite alot.

Pillaring, if what you mean is nair slaps, doesn't really work. If your opponent is relentless in trying to grab you immediately after you nair him, then maybe, but good opponents wait for the slaps or even grab in between your doubleslaps. I think Xif already mentioned this though.

Fc uair combos... The most tricky part here is to move forward when you're fc uairing them and more often than not they just di and move out of the range, unless they're space animals or falcon. Occasional upsmashes also tend to mess up these when you need to do it real fast. Uair on the other hand is really good in comboing and peach can actually full jump rising uair onto lower ys platform and receive no lag other than normal landing lag. I need to test this out on other stages as well, but if nothing else she can fast fall and L-cancel it and hop with yet another uair. Armada does uairing a lot and abuses the platforms.

Fc nair combos, on one point they are good and fancy and require tech skill and finger dexterity... on the other hand they are easily shielded and countered unless you do it frame perfect like magus on his ar vids. They can also be crouch cancelled and thus punished if one goes for the low% nair combos where they link better and from lower distances. Nair combos work the best when you already manage to hit an opponent with a nair, resulting in them stumbling and then go for another nair when they're on the ground. Or my personal favourite, do a perfect turnip rush with a non-smash throwed turnip, fast fall into fc nair, quickly do another fc nair into instant dsmash, maybe put a slap in between. The second nair also connects to those that would jump after your first nair so dsmash wouldn't hit them, also goes past shields and the dsmahs then can obliterate whatever that's left of that shield.

I also have to disagree with that djc shield canceling being completely untapped, seems like someone hasn't watched any armada videos. I personally don't use this unless completely on accident, once I did do djc out of shield into uptilt against marth.

--

Personally what I'd like to see would be better usage of turnips, like more perfect turnip rushes and the likes what pc chris does against mango and more tricky use of the turnips in general, then more overall usage of uairs and platforms like what armada does, possibly more abuse of that sweetspot on her upsmash as a tech chase or against space animals forward b'ing and of course, perfecting the use of toad in both as a mindgame and as a recovery tool. Try toad against a spamming falco, he'll think twice after that. DJC shield cancel to toad would totally rock, as jump out of shield to toad would bounce it and the spores would be innefective. The weak hits from her aerials are also good in linking hits against non-crouch canceling opponent, free dash attacks against spacies for example. Some experimenting on marth and comboing him would also be nice, his little stun time in air is troublesome.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

as a ice climber i don't like this one bit, but as a smasher i agree, but look at this waste land of decent people like peach or roy. really look outside this thread and you can see death of melee happening , i am watching roy die and i and trying to bring pichu back to life now you see peach starting to fall. act now please because you could really watch the bottom tiers then the low tiers fall

and now it's the middle and high turn to fall tilt people quit because it's just top tiers and this a real problem and it may be to late now we need is more non top tier player to save melee

 

[Pink Shinobi]

I think Peach is good.

 

[Europhoria]

I used to think Peach sucked til I played Vwins extensively. Now... man Peach is gay. Like 6th on the tier list right behind Jiggs.

 

[JFox]

"You do realise that not cort or chu dat or anyone else for that matter can smash di fox's uair with 100% accuracy? "

Obviously I realize. How does this take away from the fact that its a good technique worth learning? I would say that at one point I was able to smash DI and escape from 80% of fox's uairs.

"Anyways... I've never really done chaingrabs from 30%, because I get a grab from 0% and then dsmash or after a dsmash, meaning around 40% or so. "

"You're missing the point. If you get a grab, and you are on FD, and your opponent is above 30%, they should die. If you mess up, you need more practice."

"Wavedashes, rolls, fc aerials, parasols and even upsmashes and well timed grabs from shield are more reliable defensive maneuvers against falco's dair than powershielding."

Pretty much everything you said in this paragraph is wrong. Powershield to dsmash is pretty much instant because the shield never comes up between the two. I'll try and edit with a video.

"Pillaring, if what you mean is nair slaps, doesn't really work. If your opponent is relentless in trying to grab you immediately after you nair him, then maybe, but good opponents wait for the slaps or even grab in between your doubleslaps. I think Xif already mentioned this though."

Peach pillaring is just as vulernable as fox's or falco's pillars. Does that mean their pillars are worthless too? Peach's nair pillar without slaps is just as good as a falco multishing your shield. Plenty of people practice that, despite how difficult it is, so why don't we at least make some kind of effort?

"Fc uair combos... The most tricky part here is to move forward when you're fc uairing them and more often than not they just di and move out of the range, unless they're space animals or falcon. Occasional upsmashes also tend to mess up these when you need to do it real fast."

Its not tricky at all. if you can't do it, practice more. I don't hear spaceys saying "the tricky thing about waveshining is that some characters go different distances", lol. They go into practice mode and they do it. Once their DI sends them out of range, if you've FC your uair, you can just do a full jump nair to finish the combo. Dtilt>fc uair>fc uair>fc uair>nair is a pretty do-able combo if you catch people at the right percents.

"Fc nair combos...on the other hand they are easily shielded and countered unless you do it frame perfect like magus on his ar vids, blah blah something about crouch cancels."

OK fc nair, just like any other move, can obviously be shielded. But if you DO happen to get a fc nair off, then for god sakes have the speed to combo off of it is all im sayin. turnip throw nair, tech chase nair, w/e u wanna do but once u get the nair, dont suck and let them get away. also CC a fc nair would be really dumb, cuz FC nair dsmash would **** them if they tried that. So i wouldnt worry too much about that option.

"I also have to disagree with that djc shield canceling being completely untapped, seems like someone hasn't watched any armada videos. I personally don't use this unless completely on accident, once I did do djc out of shield into uptilt against marth."

you'll have to show me a video of him doing it. i dont really watch armada

 

[Kouryuu]

Peach is a relatively limited character.

But she's good enough to win with so it doesn't matter.

 

[Mew2King]

i can CG 25% to death with peach over half the time on FD

 

[Vts]

**** people typed a lot i'll read it in the morning or at school to kill a little bit of time and maybe post why i think she sucks

 

[Rain(ame)]

I've gotta say...i've gotten better at Smash DI out of Fox's Uair. I played Soja this weekend and got out of quite a few of them up until about 120%+ Then...well I died, xD. The Uair does work on spacies...I think it catches Falco off guard moreso than Fox, but that's my personal opinion.

I don't know...I thought I'd share some insight after playing people this weekened. The FC nair followup isn't as hard as one might think it is. I'm not claiming to be one of the fastest...but if I can follow up, most other Peach players should be able to as well. Personally I feel that someone isn't practicing hard enough to do it if they can't. I even feel I've lost my FC speed, so I've gotta work hard to get it back...and hopefully get faster.


Seriously, though, read what's being said in this thread and then play someone. Who cares if you lose a couple? Check to see if you can' improve upon it. Also...be honest with yourself and look to see where you can improve.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think she's just limited by the fact that she's really slow.

I think she's good, but she's sort of stuck. Because no matter how good her close-range combat game gets, she's going to - at some point - have to work with having a very small amount of speed. So she's going to be limited in her opportunities to use said close-range combat game. She needs more than float back and Fair, turnip --> aerial, FCs, dash attack, chain grabs, and D-smash.

Although if someone can pull a M2K and figure out how to kill everyone with her out of 1-2 hits then sure why not I don't see why she wouldn't be awesome.

 

[Shakugan]

I think she's just limited by the fact that she's really slow.

I think she's good, but she's sort of stuck. Because no matter how good her close-range combat game gets, she's going to - at some point - have to work with having a very small amount of speed. So she's going to be limited in her opportunities to use said close-range combat game. She needs more than float back and Fair, turnip --> aerial, FCs, dash attack, chain grabs, and D-smash.

Although if someone can pull a M2K and figure out how to kill everyone with her out of 1-2 hits then sure why not I don't see why she wouldn't be awesome.

I think hes right her slow speed makes this really hard, and her wavedash which also doesnt go anywhere these 2 factors make peach some what limited.

Cuz if you look at it Fox,Marth,Falco,Shiek,Falcon, and quite a few others can run circles around her. If she had more speed she would be 5x better than she is now

 

[JFox]

yes, i agree with kaze completely. I think everyone knows that peach's lack of speed hurts her immensely. but lets focus on what can be done about that.

Defense is peach's primary way of forcing close combat. if the opponent has to approach you, you gain the advantage. once you get the opponent into close combat, if you can manage to improve that aspect of her game than you can win more. once you find an opening, you need to exploit it as much as possible. so this means if u FC nair out of shield, that you follow up that nair instead of just getting a 1 hit move.

I wish Mew2king did take peach more seriously. he could def show the world a thing or two.

 

[Samochan]

I wish Mew2king did take peach more seriously. he could def show the world a thing or two.

Pc chris not enough for you? ._.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Thing about it...is that M2K really does his research when he plays a character. He also makes his attempt to do things to frame perfection. If M2K really took Peach seriously like he did...say Fox/Marth/Sheik....I think that we'd have seen some amazing stuff with Peach like we do with those characters. Either that...or some tactic that's so gay it'll work for the victory. (g.e.- Laser Spam->Bair with Fox)

 

[JFox]

I'm not a big fan of PC's peach tbh. I'm also not a fan of his Falco or Marth either for that matter. PC plays by outsmarting his opponent, playing safe, and controlling space to force mistakes. So the problem is that PC doesn't really do that much with his peach other than the very text book stuff. He doesn't really care to invent new tactics for a character, he just sticks to basic formula while outsmarting you.

Its like- look at drephen's sheik compared to Mew2King's. Look at Azen's Marth compared to Mew2King's. M2k has the technical ability, creative ability, and smarts to pull off the most amazing things with each character he plays. PC plays peach the way azen plays marth- space, mindgames, play safe, etc.

Nothing new

 

[Kouryuu]

PC plays Peach the way she should be played. Sticks to the basics with no unnecessary movements. Anything else is just superfluous.

After all, PC has the best Peach (I hear M2K's is better but I don't know).

 

[Rain(ame)]

I keep hearing "PC has the best....(insert character here)". The problem is that PC HAD the best. He HAD the best Falco...and I don't know if he EVER had the best Peach. Sastopher probably had the best Peach. If playing it safe it what you call being the best then JMan has the best Fox. (which...I <3 the kid, but he doesn't.)

Peach has potential to do things to blow people's minds. XIF,VaNz, Mike G, and even Dark.Pch has proven that. The thing is...the right balance of being techy and of being safe is the key to having a TRULY amazing Peach. I enjoyed watching Alejandro P because his Peach is crazy good. I enjoy watching Crismas becaause her Peach is so technical. Heck, I enjoy watching JFox when he's not spamming turnips, xD. Kouryuu, your Peach is even entertaining to watch when you get technical.

Then you've got the safe Peach players. I personally enjoy watching safe Peach players llike Cort, Vidjo, XIF, Sastopher, Pink Shinobi because it's good to watch a Peach Mindgame people. You can take those mindgames and use them to your advantage. Incorporating them into your style so you can have a better Peach.

Mike G was said to have "invented Peach" because he has a good balance of mindgames and crazy aggressive and techy Peach playing. We can take that and build upon it...and truly evolve Peach. I honestly think that's what JFox is getting at. We KNOW what Peach can do when she plays it safely. We've only begun to see what she's capable of when she gets aggressive AND Mindgamey. Peach, like any other character should be able to have a better mix-up game...especially when it comes to being Aggressive and safe. I've Seen how M2K can play Peach and he does a rather well job of being aggressive and safe. Problem is...he doesn't expound enough Peach playing to really show us. All we can do is ask advice and develop it on our own. We're discussing how to make Peach better because she CAN get better. Sure...it may take a few "L"s in the process, but I think that we can truly pull together and evolve Peach's metagame.

 

[Samochan]

Imo, pc probably had the best peach right after cort (he's real rusty nowdays as is cort I think). Not only pc had a good teacher, he also utilises turnips very effectively and times his attacks and especially float cancels from shield very well and is very smart player to boot, it is a joy to watch his peach in action. Pc in short, utilises her in a way which is both very effective yet safe.

I see armada has been neglected to be mentioned yet again, I dunno if this is because of the low exposure to his gaming cause he's european and most matches need to be downloaded from ajp's server (especially recent ones) in order to view them, or something completely different, but armada not only has gotten more speed under his belt lately, he plays his peach very smart against other smart opponents and tricky and seemingly no unneccesary movements, always suprising me with new tricks as well when he improvises.

The only match of m2k's peach I saw didn't impress me really, pc's peach > m2k's peach, especially when pc plays her somewhat regulary and m2k doesn't.

What I'd deem unneccesary in developing peach is this unneccesary focus on technical skill, especially float cancels that supposedly should be linked together in some amazing display of combos across the stage. Well, as far as I know, grounded opponents have the opportunity to crouch cancel, shield and retaliate in between any low% float cancels that do not end up into downsmash and there is only certain parts on med% where the opponent stumbles from the force of nair and is still near enough to get naired again unless they have really good reflexes in getting invincibility frames via getups and such. Aerial opponents, unless someone who's really big like bowser or space animal can also retaliate via simple aerials against her float cancelled ones or di down and away into shield, messing her approach and retaliating yet again. Her nair hitbox also doesn't extend too far diagonally up in front of her, albeit it does have priority. Foxes for example, can and will jump after getting hit by nair unless they stumble, which leaves her vulnerable to aerial assaults (like dair) even if she immediately goes to perform a second nair. And on low% crouch cancels and shielding leave her very open to retaliations if she continues to simply float cancel attacks.

What we should focus upon instead is the timing of the float cancels, which is important in getting those combos off and avoiding punishment from attacks. Someone who can do 10x nairs in 2 seconds but who stumbles when hitting shield and gets grabbed... well, you may guess if someone who can't do as many nairs per second nor can link fc nairs across stage but can perfectly time and execute any fc nair they do and link to other attacks is better than someone who can only press buttons fast. Frame perfection and ultimate speed with peach shouldn't be the way, as she can never catch up to those who are much faster than her anyway, but instead correct timing of her moves in correct situations is the key to her success, as 1 hit 3 misses is better than 10 misses 3 hits on a game with such tough punishment game. The less opportunities you give to the fox or whatever top tier char player to nail you with attacks as you shy off technically demanding yet unsafe attacks and aggressive maneuvers, the better the chances you will survive and that you will nail him when the opportunity arises. Being technical is entertaining and good for you if you can keep it up without getting punished by another technically good player, but playing safe and smart and getting those hits in when it counts wins you the game in the end and looks impressive as well. Armada does way better with correct timing and smartness than dancingqueen90 ever does with "how many moves you can do per second" strats (no offence to dancingqueen).

 

[milkieee]

Pc chris not enough for you? ._.

OMG xD
Had the same thought in this moment !! xD


@topic:

In my opinion it's that lazieness even IN the matches ^^
U see "aaaah k DOWNSMASH WORKS REALLY WELL" so u use this tappin c-stick-down-thing ^^

here in germany we have a really interessting peach player who is called "DancingQueen90"
u may already heard or read his name ^^

he's famous for being the best Peach in germany and also famous for using impressively few DSmashes

on the other hand he is good in mindgaming people, with impressing ease
and his tech is f*ckin' sick (unless he doesn't use FCing at all but DJCing)

he had always been among the top5 smashers in germany and (in my opinon) he still is ^^

with some more using his mind and much more knowledge of the game itself (u know he doesn't figure out new stuff and such, he just plays ^^) he may would be the prototype of a person we would call a "Metagame-Improover" or sth. like that ^^

(sry. kinda weak english, I hope u understood my point xD)

 

[Rain(ame)]

@ Samo:
I apologize for forgetting Armada...although in my initial post he was mentioned for his used of the Uair. I don't see as many Armada vids as I do some of the others I mentioned. Armada does have an impressive Peach, and his creativity on the fly is probably one of the best if not THE best out there right now. (Note I said on fhe fly...I don't want this turning into a debate) He shows that Peach doesn't need set combos which is probably her best weapon of all. Her aerials combo well into each other and her tilts. Of course there is always Dsmash, xD.

@Milkieee:
I'll look up some of his vids so I can see what you are referring to. Also...nice vids from the XIF thread. I'd post something...but it'd probably get looked over, anyways, xD. XIF can give you MUCH better advice than I can.

 

[kirbstir]

While being more technical gives you more options theoretically, I believe after a certain point your ROI in technical prowess becomes extremely marginal with Peach compared to other characters. She's better off when reading her opponent correctly and controlling area properly, which are not inherently technical skills, but learned through experience and intuition.

Not that I avoided abusing 30-death cgs, smash DI space animal dair, smash DI fox uair, etc. But I'd rather avoid allowing Fox/Falco to setup a dair offense in the first place, and I don't think Peach pillar is her best pressure option.

 

[pockyD]

why "pillar" when you can just grab

 

[milkieee]

cuz grabing is even harder ? ^^

 

[Mike G]

I see what the problem is here. Here is the solution.



Someone needs to Reinvent peach.

 

[Shakugan]

Peach needs more down tilts in my eyes. Grabbing a falco, fox, and or a falcon is pretty tough to do.


@ Samo: Armada is a beast and needs his props his play style is great.


Edit: Mike G is right we need new peach things that will turns heads and win matches

 

[Rain(ame)]

Well, that's why we need to start trying things...with evryone we play. Like I said...take a few losses...not like it matters if we're going to be bettering Peach. Just don't hurt your tournament play because of it. Try a few things, and if it works, then expound upon it.

 

[milkieee]

Luma told me about a "new idea" in egdeguarding
especially great against marth and doc and anyone else, who comes from far down while recovery

what about pulling off a turnip -> walk/run off the ledge -> turnaround-throw the turnip -> grab the ledge(not the turnip)

that's kinda ideas that r rlly. needed ^^
dunno if it is really new stuff, but it was new to me ^^

 

[Samochan]

Luma told me about a "new idea" in egdeguarding
especially great against marth and doc and anyone else, who comes from far down while recovery

what about pulling off a turnip -> walk/run off the ledge -> turnaround-throw the turnip -> grab the ledge(not the turnip)

that's kinda ideas that r rlly. needed ^^
dunno if it is really new stuff, but it was new to me ^^

It doesn't work, because you lag in animation when throwing the turnip so you won't grab the ledge if you simply run off. But what does work is jumping, then c-stick throwing the turnip the other way and then hogging the ledge, you can also djc for maximum distance and fast fall.

Oh and btw, I've been testing around with uthrow -> weak dash attack today and fox/falco needs to have around 115-120% before you throw em, so they get above 120% or so and then you use immediate dash attack so it gets really weak when it hits them, but enough stun allows for a regrab, then you can throw em immediately up again and uair if no di, second dash attack if they di and then go with mashing and aerial once you've finished. As fox/falco can only be chained to around 110% or so, this works really well to extend the amount of time in chaingrab and increase the chances of killing them. Credit goes to armada for this tiny trick ofc (<3 you armada for being so awesome). And if they di off stage and you're as near the edge as possible, you can run off and drop down to immediate fair, the upmost part will hit em or do whatever shenaningans like float off nair em.

 

[Shakugan]

People need to start watching Dancingquenn90 matches that man has some skill. We could learn a few things also watch Armada he also does cool things.


Shakugan, maybe im a lion

 

[The Irish Mafia]

armada's just a G
and dancingquenn is pretty awesome

we just need some technical players like Magus
I dunno I like to play technically
not saying the next big peach player is going to be me
but what the hell I'd like that

edit: Mikeee, hella's been doing that since the begining of time
2nd edit: PC doesn't main peach, he's a fox player now
and his peach wasn't/isn't that great anyway

 

[Cia]

if peach players are to ever be taken seriously, fox must be shot and killed.

oh, and this is the part where all of you kill, bash, and/or ignore list me.

"Peach is better than Marth."

 

[Rain(ame)]

I gotta be quite honest, VaNz...the matchup SHOULD go better for Peach. I'm not sure why it doesn't...but it really should. I KNOW I'm doing something wrong -_-. I managed to turn what was in essence a horrid match against Javier around after getting my mindset back at the last SPOC. (I don't know WHAT was wrong with me. ) Then he counterpicked Fox...ugh. Fox should be given the Old Yeller treatment.

 

[kirbstir]

There's a difference between being better than a character and having a good/bad matchup against that character

 

[Samochan]

How's peach better than marth when she has worse statistics and matchups in general? Marth has more options in and from his moves (at least more effective), he can kill faster and lower %, he can combo quite reliably, has more range, spike, better edgeguard, a lot better counter, tippers, better dd, wd, less stun time, more weight, faster on ground...

And what does peach have over marth? Peach has projectiles that can be scarcely used against the faster chars and can be countered (cept stitchface and her other items), she has better recovery with float, lags less with fc'd aerials, dsmash, does not struggle to kill at higher %, has more powerful and faster aerials, faster and more useful slap, powerful throw, can double jump cancel, powerful sweetspot on upsmash, semispike on tennis racket and sweetspot on golf club... But most of these are really mundane things, marth has better statistics in general than peach has and his matchups prove it. Peach has even matchups even with some low tier chars, marth has fewer even matchups.

 

[Kouryuu]

It's common knowledge that Marth ***** Peach. Marth is also the better character in almost every way (match-up wise, versatility, etc.). Peach is a limited character when it comes to high level play.

Though I don't think Vanz was serious. If he was, then...