My thoughts on why Advance Techniques were removed....

[Dagingabreadman]

Now I've realised that some of the advanced techs from melee are being removed (L-cancel and wavedashing). Back in the day of melee these were all fun and good, they increased the gap between 1337 and /\/008. They separated man from boy.
However, with nintendo trying to bring in non gamers and the oline aspect of the game, I think the big N wants to make the learning curve more leiniant(sp?). Think about it, if WD and L cancel were in, 1337 players would abuse them online and just pwn noobs to an unfair extent.
Online would not be fun if you didnt learn these techs, and might take away from the game for some players.
please discuss


and btw i dont think you need to use WD to be good or that u suck if u dont (i personally dont) and i also dont think that noobs should be given special treatment.

 

[LavisFiend]

*facepalm

Heading into a ****storm, bring your poncho. -_-

 

[Mordraug]

Personally, I think they were removed because they weren't how the game was meant to be played. While L-Canceling isn't that bad and probably coulda been left alone, WDing definetly needed to go. If they wanted characters to move and play like that, they would just make them move like that. L-Canceling leaves the moves they want to have consequences for missing actually leave you at a disadvantage, so you choose more wisely when to execute them. If you think knowing how to hit a button to in essence "cheat" is more tactile and "pro" than actually knowing when to use the move, I'd say your logic is flawed.

 

[Tony_]

[They Were Removed Because They Were Glitches And Smash Is Supposed To Be Casual Not ****ing Tournament Competetive. My ****ing God How Many More Reatarded Threads Like These Must There Be?!?!?!?!?

 

[Jigglymaster]

There is still the SHFFL in the game and with that it still divides noobs from pros. Since there is little lag in the game its like auto L canceling so SHFFL still works. Any Pro could easily beat a casual player w/o using WD or L cancel easy. Your an idiot if you think removing those two techniques will help casual players at all be better than pro players. And who says that SSBM wasn't supposed to be Competitive. Nintendo dosn't give a **** what people do with it. Why is Halo competitive then? Hmm? There are many competitive video games. Halo, Madden, Smash Bros, and all of those other online games. If you serioulsy think taht Smash is competitive as you say. Well be surpised, there are more games that take competivness WAY MORE SERIOUSLY. You guy seriously need to stop *****ing about how other people play the game.

Its like you saying that Baseball shouldn't be competitive just because you can't hit the ball cause your facing a pro baseball player who throws the ball at 90 MPH. So you've gotta ***** and moan to these people to make it so that you can't throw it that fast, you get an infinate number of swings so we don't have to listen to you whine when you strike out all 5 times your up, and so on and so on. If Baseball can be competitive why can't Smash bros. You don't have to take part of it. I pity you tony.

 

[Ban Heim]

[They Were Removed Because They Were Glitches And Smash Is Supposed To Be Casual Not ****ing Tournament Competetive. My ****ing God How Many More Reatarded Threads Like These Must There Be?!?!?!?!?

Man, how long will it take people to realize that l-cancelling wasn't a glitch? It was listed on the old smash bros site as a legitimate techniqute. Just because you suck and can't do it doesn't mean it's "lol glitch." Try to improve so you don't get your *** beat or learn to deal with your suckiness and shut the **** up.

****ing noobs need to realize that they're the ones provoking all of this ****. I consider myself fairly pro (not as good as the frequent tourney goers) and whenever I play someone that sucks, I don't look down on them. I usually try to offer advice or try to help them improve instead of bashing on them for not using advanced techniques. The problem here is that ******* see how good AT users are and automatically start bashing on them for cheating. If you'd just shut the **** up and mind your own business, you'd stop getting all of this elitism from the pros. Yes they're better than you, but if you don't provoke them, they have no reason to flaunt it. You can't blame a pro for fighting back because some ******** 10 year old starts calling him names and swearing at him for doing something that the noob can't use. Besides, no matter how many times you say it's cheap, you still won't convince anyone to stop using advanced techs. That's just how it is.

Everyone has the same opportunity. Everyone can learn to WD, l-cancel, SHFFL, and all that other ****. It just takes time. If you can't devote that kind of time to it, don't ***** when someone who can kicks your ***. Either try to improve or don't whine when you get your *** handed to you. It's that simple.

****ing scrubs.

 

[blayde_axel]

I think they were taken out because it's a new game with a new psychics engine. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Aether_Lord]

L-cancling was like canceling your attacks like in guilty gear o_o i forget the name tho thats how come you can see those insane comboes they do in the game

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

1. L cancelling originated as Z cancelling in 64. It was a ''glitch'' persay (cancelling aerial lag with the beginning of the shield animation) however it was found and kept in melee but fixed, wherein instead of having 0 lag after an aerial, the lag was reduced by half in melee, and much faster by float cancelling with peach.

Therefore, L cancelling was not a glitch.

2. Wavedashing is neither here nor there, it is a big part of melee because of directional airdodging and AVOIDING the glitch of what would happen without sliding. Airdodging is differnt in brawl. So sliding will of course be aswell.

Wavedashing being a glitch or not is irrelevant, it is not in brawl.... let's move on.

3. Lag cancelling is in brawl, any eager player will use it to his advantage.

Finally, wavedashing and L cancelling are far from encompassing all the advanced techniques in melee. There are quite a few to learn, and techniques wont win you the match, smash is more than that.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

This might sound far-fetched, but I personally think that it was because Sakurai didn't like them. He probably thinks that we betrayed him with Melee, hell, I would. We turned his (perfect) game into something that it wasn't meant to be.

 

[Xenesis]

I'm thinking more and more Sakurai doesn't want a fiasco like Snaking in Mario Kart DS.

 

[Jigglymaster]

This might sound far-fetched, but I personally think that it was because Sakurai didn't like them. He probably thinks that we betrayed him with Melee, hell, I would. We turned his (perfect) game into something that it wasn't meant to be.

Yes, buying more copies of Melee and Gamecubes for Tournaments was definatly betraying Nintendo. Techniques like that helped keep the game alive for 6 years and people kept buying it.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

This doesnt mean there wont be more advanced techinques discovereed in Brawl that wont be as or more destructive as the wavedash, jeesh im so tired of these threads

 

[Blatherskite]

Melee's gameplay is a joke without the advanced techniques. If the competitive aspects weren't there, then I would have put the game down after a month.

 

[NES n00b]

I'm thinking more and more Sakurai doesn't want a fiasco like Snaking in Mario Kart DS.

If you mean that people who don't snake in Mario Kart DS get beaten by those who did, then maybe you are right about it being a "fiasco." If you think it is a glitch, then no it is an exploit and is in Double Dash and 64.

Who cares why they took it out? It is out. That is it. This game is definitely being made with simplicity in mind, though.

Personally, I probably would have dropped Melee after so long without ATs, but my friends dropped it before I did. Get ready for the flames of the board.

Edit: lol, perfect game. This is my favorite multiplayer game, but I do not think it is perfect with or without ATs. If that is why he took them out, that is slightly selfish or egotistic in a sense.

 

[Emokirby4]

I believe they were taken out to create a more realistic looking/feeling game. Many of the advantages of the advanced techs can still be seen in more realistic (and easier) ways. (ex. edge hugging, new lag-cancel ect.) Of course some propertys of the advanced techs have gotten dropped completely, which really shouldn't come to anyones surprise seeing as how they weren't part of the developers original intent.

 

[Xenesis]

If you mean that people who don't snake in Mario Kart DS get beaten by those who did, then maybe you are right about it being a "fiasco." If you think it is a glitch, then no it is an exploit and is in Double Dash and 64.

Who cares why they took it out? It is out. That is it. This game is definitely being made with simplicity in mind, though.

Personally, I probably would have dropped Melee after so long without ATs, but my friends dropped it before I did. Get ready for the flames of the board.

Edit: lol, perfect game. This is my favorite multiplayer game, but I do not think it is perfect with or without ATs. If that is why he took them out, that is slightly selfish or egotistic in a sense.

I mean in the sense that it completely destroyed any hope of attracting new players to the online play because rather than using the same techniques better than the new player, they were using completely new techniques. They weren't glitches, they were a horrid gameplay mechanic (I can't do it because it gives me painful hand cramps). It's not even an exploit, really. Just a really stupid idea.

In other words, it completely polarised the community. Instead of having a skill gradient like with most games, you had a gaping ravine of 'snakers' and 'non-snakers'. Which ended up with most of the non-snakers abandoning the online play, leaving the rest to just the small 1% of hardcore players. Eg, a dead community, relatively speaking. I'm sure a lot of the more hardcore players abandoned it too because of all the people consistently disconnecting when a snaker appears. Essentially - skill walls (rather than skill gradients) serve to just frustrate the majority of the people playing the game. ATs in Melee are a similar (If much smaller) skill wall. There doesn't need to be techniques to separate nubs from pros - the skills of the players will do it anyhow. Even in Poker, the better players will win.

 

[RetroRhythm]

The answer is simple;

"AT's" interfered with Sakurai's vision, so now he is taking great strides to try and keep the metagame exploit free.

 

[Tony_]

Man, how long will it take people to realize that l-cancelling wasn't a glitch? It was listed on the old smash bros site as a legitimate techniqute. Just because you suck and can't do it doesn't mean it's "lol glitch." Try to improve so you don't get your *** beat or learn to deal with your suckiness and shut the **** up.

****ing noobs need to realize that they're the ones provoking all of this ****. I consider myself fairly pro (not as good as the frequent tourney goers) and whenever I play someone that sucks, I don't look down on them. I usually try to offer advice or try to help them improve instead of bashing on them for not using advanced techniques. The problem here is that ******* see how good AT users are and automatically start bashing on them for cheating. If you'd just shut the **** up and mind your own business, you'd stop getting all of this elitism from the pros. Yes they're better than you, but if you don't provoke them, they have no reason to flaunt it. You can't blame a pro for fighting back because some ******** 10 year old starts calling him names and swearing at him for doing something that the noob can't use. Besides, no matter how many times you say it's cheap, you still won't convince anyone to stop using advanced techs. That's just how it is.

Everyone has the same opportunity. Everyone can learn to WD, l-cancel, SHFFL, and all that other ****. It just takes time. If you can't devote that kind of time to it, don't ***** when someone who can kicks your ***. Either try to improve or don't whine when you get your *** handed to you. It's that simple.

****ing scrubs.

The pros who put down noobs aren't pros, they are arrogant wannabes. True pros help out people when they can and people learn from them and grow.

 

[manofonetitle]

Well, here's MY theory:

I don't think L-canceling was supposed to be in the game, same thing goes for wavedashing. I don't really consider them glitches, just techniques that you could pull of that the developers didn't really expect. They were just...I dunno, hidden.
Moving on to my main point, those techniques might not be in there, but what makes you think that there won't be NEWER advanced techniques that you could pull off in Brawl, huh? It's too early to say that there aren't going to be any ATs, IMO. There could very well be wavedashing, L canceling, blah blah blah, or if not there could probably be new AT's that weren't possible in Melee. Makes sense, since there'll be new elements, such as Final Smashes...

 

[Teben]

I like my fighters to be as free of ridiculous exploits as possible. Otherwise, you end up with big, messy, ridiculous stuff like MvC2.

I admit I took to WD'ing, etc, because, well, it works. And I had fun playing with it. But if you gave me the option, I'd rather that my character's fastest method of moving would be his intentional fastest method of movement. Know what I mean?

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

I admit I took to WD'ing, etc, because, well, it works. And I had fun playing with it. But if you gave me the option, I'd rather that my character's fastest method of moving would be his intentional fastest method of movement. Know what I mean?

Would you mind if I made this my sig?

 

[NES n00b]

In other words, it completely polarised the community.

You are right about that. The only techs to have the power to do that is wavedashing and shffling. For fuction, it is really shffling and the l cancelling but some people don't notice that. <_<

I like my fighters to be as free of ridiculous exploits as possible. Otherwise, you end up with big, messy, ridiculous stuff like MvC2.

I admit I took to WD'ing, etc, because, well, it works. And I had fun playing with it. But if you gave me the option, I'd rather that my character's fastest method of moving would be his intentional fastest method of movement. Know what I mean?

First, exploits by definition are in every game (to use in one's advantage, something not intentional by developers but not a glitch for the video game definition, both will be in Brawl no matter what else happens). There will be moves that are more useful than others, different physics tricks that will allow you to move faster or combo better, tatics that are better than other situational tatics. If you mean that you hope that their isn't any gamebreaking exploits, DI takes care of almost all posibilities of big game breaking ones. If you mean techs, well it depends what you mean and where you draw the line. Do you consider Float cancelling a real tech that was not intended? What about double fairs with Marth? JC Shines? Where do you draw the line of what is an exploit tech wise or if it is a good tatic that the character moveset or the physics property of the character allow the character to do?

Second, what if they did make intentional in Brawl? Would you feel better that it is intentional? What if Sakurai officially anounces that wavedashing was meant to be used the way it was would you feel the same way? Why does it matter what was intentional are not? Gameplay > programmer "intentions" (intentions in quotes because not only do we not really know all of what the programmers intended, we cannot successfully reproduce what Sakurai envisioned for stuff like character balance, how to play your character, how to beat comps, etc.).

 

[platnum]

The answer is simple;

"AT's" interfered with Sakurai's vision, so now he is taking great strides to try and keep the metagame exploit free.

someone PLZ ban this guy*sky dives out thread*

 

[Ashes13]

There is such a commotion over this controversy. I can guarantee that when the game comes out, all will be forgotten (There will be a few clingers to Melee) and new techniques will arise. With Brawl will comes new gameplay mechanics and new strategies. All will be well.

 

[Junpappy]

The pros who put down noobs aren't pros, they are arrogant wannabes. True pros help out people when they can and people learn from them and grow.

You can't very well do that when the noobs aren't willing to listen now can you? Whether you choose to believe it or not, there ARE people who will refuse to learn new techniques that aren't in the instruction manual because those techniques are "cheap".

 

[Michael Blaine]

Nintendo wants a more level playing field, so play gets simplified a little to keep new players from getting discouraged. I was angry about it before, but for now I'll spare my sanity and just wait until I play the game. Then I'll throw myself off an overpass.

Just remember that less advanced techniques means less excuses when you lose. Or as someone else put more succinctly, NO JOHNS. There will always be a gap between those who practice and those who don't. This goes for anything.

Maybe the next gen excuse will be "The only reason your good is you have too much time on ur hands!!!!"

Oh, wait. People actually use that one now.

 

[omfgomfg]

I think Z cancelling was much better than L cancelling. They should definitely include delay after aerials but instead make the button cancel out all the lag.

 

[GaryCXJk]

My thought:

Since Sakurai had planned on doing a different approach on Smash, e.g. mostly making the complete code by scratch, Sakurai didn't feel like going trough the trouble of adding the L-cancel.

Also, wavedashing didn't get in because of one simple reason: air combat. The current way of air dodging greatly improves air combat. If anyone has read SamuraiPanda's threads (which I suspect nobody did here) you could have read that Sakurai wanted to put the focus more in air battles. Hence the Flying type stage on Pokémon Stadium 2, hence the return of the (floating) bumper, hence the new air dodge.

It has nothing to do with Adv. Techs at all. For the two techniques taken out, Sakurai has given us the footstool jump, or that stumbling thing we see in some of the trailers, which can be canceled to give us something probably even better than wavedashing.

 

[Adi]

Lag cancelling is in and better than before, and will only help to increase the gap between those who use Short Hop Aerials and those who don't, so that is an irrelevant part of the dicusssion.

Wavedashing isn't removed, characters can still waveland but the character has to be airdodge has to be used in such a position in which the momentum brings you into the ground.

So my perspective, simply an unrelated change that occured with alterations to the physics engine.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Yes, buying more copies of Melee and Gamecubes for Tournaments wahttp://www.razorproxy.com/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3NtYXNoYm9hcmRzLmNvbS9pbWFnZXMvcmV2b2x1dGlvbi9lZGl0b3IvYm9sZC5naWY%3D
Bolds definatly betraying Nintendo. Techniques like that helped keep the game alive for 6 years and people kept buying it.

QFT. This post wins.

And really, if Nintendo didn't want scrubs getting beaten online, removing wavedash would not be the solution. They would somehow have to see to it that this game was not accessible to dedicated players, maybe call up the ESRB, see if they can give it an S for Scrub rating, have guards in every store taze non-Scrubs who attempt to by it.

Nintendo knows that the competitive scene brings money, and while the casual demographic is the dominant one in a quantitative way, they're surely not ignorant of the people who keep a game alive and breathing after years and years of play. They'll make the games noob friendly, but they won't make it shallow. At least that's what I believe to be the smartest business decision.

EDIT: Can no one read? What the person below me says is NOT going to happen, ever.

 

[jc1sttwin]

I think they got the BOOT because Sakurai wanted the game to be fair

and easy for newbies to jump in and play with the big boys

 

[full_95]

it's not like we arent going to figure out new advanced techs people. just because the old ones are gone doesnt mean that kids arent going to play the game a million hours a day and discover new ones. and the old ones werent glitches, stop complaining you pusssies.

 

[Wolfgang457]

I think they got the BOOT because Sakurai wanted the game to be fair

and easy for newbies to jump in and play with the big boys

Not happening, the closest thing to being that balanced is an EXTREMELY basic boardgame. Even then the more experienced players will be able to mindgame the newbie in some way. Besides people who put more time into learning the game DESERVE to win.

As far as I know the only major thing Sakurai has taken out is wavedashing. It's a fun little technique that some of my tourney friends use. I myself though have just been getting into AT's and I must say learning them is quite a bit of fun. But at the same time I'm glad Sakurai made it so that you can't pick up your trusty gamecube controller in Brawl and instantly be able to wavedash circles around people. I look forward to seeing what you can do in Brawl tech-wise anyway.

 

[Lunytunes4.4]

well they got removed cause they removed it<_<, but im sure competitive players will find some other adv tech or just deal with the new game and still pwn

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

This might sound far-fetched, but I personally think that it was because Sakurai didn't like them. He probably thinks that we betrayed him with Melee, hell, I would. We turned his (perfect) game into something that it wasn't meant to be.

If you're like me and consider smash melee a game so beautiful it could even be classified as a work of art perhaps you should instead of looking at it with your biased eyes think about it from the standpoint of a formalist era artist.

Formalist artists believed that the intentions of the creator of a work of art did NOT MATTER, and all that mattered in terms of the essence of the game/work of art was the work of art itself, as the moment it was created it began to live in an entirely sepperate world from that of its creator.

What Im basically saying is that the intentions of the creator do not always matter, smash brothers melee is a game that lives a completely sepperate existence from sakurai, and it has evolved in a beautiful way.

Your personal opinion is that the developed meta game is something it shouldn't have been? Shame on you. 6 or more years went into developing the amaing meta game we have now for melee, and it exceeds in great capacity the game we were stuck playing in 2001.

And wavedashing is probably only about 20-30 percent of the equation here.

More than half of the ''advanced'' (and they're ridiculously easy to do) techniques do not involve wavedashing, or L cancelling. Yet, are ESSENTIAL to being able to keep a good win rate vs skilled players.


Want a few examples off the top of my head?

Spotdodging at the right time and reacting out of it to your advantage
Jabbing, and all its various uses
Jab cancelling
Edge guarding marth on the edge with a slightly tilted light shield
Jump cancelled grabs
Knowing your combos based on the weight and damage of your opponent and the matchup
Crouch Cancelling for a good trade
Empty shorthops, and various other degrees of jumping mindgames

I could go on for quite some time but I hope you get the point by now. L cancelling is far from a glitich, infact it's still in brawl with the only differences being its BETTER now, and you dont have to press L. Your lag is still cancellable with a fastfall.

As for the wavedash, who the hell cares anymore? Apparantly you can waveland somehow, and I have to agree with the people who say brawl is a NEW game and not melee 2.0 Ok sure, wavedashing is great and removing it from brawl was a HORRIBLE idea, but its time to get past that and realize with logic that there are going to still be hundreds of advanced moves in brawl, just like in melee

 

[Pluvia's other account]

L-Canceling is out? I thought you recover faster now or something? What was all that "L-Canceling is now Automatic in Brawl" crap then?

Anyway, Wavedashing was taken out because of the Havok Engine, or the Developers taking it out Manually. That's what I said would happen. All the time. I just got flamed.

How Ironic.

Though with Brawl out now, I'm so going to be using all the "Advanced Techniques" discovered in it. So I'm not complaining about AT in Brawl.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

If you're like me and consider smash melee a game so beautiful it could even be classified as a work of art perhaps you should instead of looking at it with your biased eyes think about it from the standpoint of a formalist era artist.

Formalist artists believed that the intentions of the creator of a work of art did NOT MATTER, and all that mattered in terms of the essence of the game/work of art was the work of art itself, as the moment it was created it began to live in an entirely sepperate world from that of its creator.

What Im basically saying is that the intentions of the creator do not always matter, smash brothers melee is a game that lives a completely sepperate existence from sakurai, and it has evolved in a beautiful way.

Your personal opinion is that the developed meta game is something it shouldn't have been? Shame on you. 6 or more years went into developing the amaing meta game we have now for melee, and it exceeds in great capacity the game we were stuck playing in 2001.

And wavedashing is probably only about 20-30 percent of the equation here.

More than half of the ''advanced'' (and they're ridiculously easy to do) techniques do not involve wavedashing, or L cancelling. Yet, are ESSENTIAL to being able to keep a good win rate vs skilled players.


Want a few examples off the top of my head?

Spotdodging at the right time and reacting out of it to your advantage
Jabbing, and all its various uses
Jab cancelling
Edge guarding marth on the edge with a slightly tilted light shield
Jump cancelled grabs
Knowing your combos based on the weight and damage of your opponent and the matchup
Crouch Cancelling for a good trade
Empty shorthops, and various other degrees of jumping mindgames

I could go on for quite some time but I hope you get the point by now. L cancelling is far from a glitich, infact it's still in brawl with the only differences being its BETTER now, and you dont have to press L. Your lag is still cancellable with a fastfall.

As for the wavedash, who the hell cares anymore? Apparantly you can waveland somehow, and I have to agree with the people who say brawl is a NEW game and not melee 2.0 Ok sure, wavedashing is great and removing it from brawl was a HORRIBLE idea, but its time to get past that and realize with logic that there are going to still be hundreds of advanced moves in brawl, just like in melee

What?

Thats what I think Sakurai would think. I love advanced techniques. Don't be so quick to judge.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

*cough*

Excuse me while I look at this from a programmer stand point..

More than likely, they removed those techniques because they require pin point timing of frames and huge amounts of extra player input, and that would lag down the game when played over the internet, thus making it unplayable.

As for wavedashing, and them removing it because of the momentum air dodge, that's bad logic. That was also changed because of player input and lag. Think about it, if they just wanted to remove wavedashing, just add lag to a character when they land on the ground. that's easier than changing the whole mechanics of it into the momentum based, especially considering it's part of the melee engine. So no, it wasn't that they did it BECAUSE of wave dashing, they did it because it's one less thing that players can control, meaning sped up online play.

Online is a major thing to go about, so they had to make a lot of changes to make it run smoothly, even though some people will still hate it.

Hopefully that makes some sense to you people.

 

[veil222]

Eh, I really think the dev team wants to keep techs in, manipulate them *intentionally* this time, and balance them. Getting really tired of people reading a post or two in a thread and saying "omfgscrubs cry moar" this is just a matter of preference, and theirs is just as valid as yours unless they start thinking their opinion is truth. *Anyone* who does that just ends up looking like an ***. Sakurai will try to get alot of money, we all know that, best way to do that is give it mass appeal (new balance, shifted focus, easier to hop into gameplay), and *second* give it survivability (tournament potential, advanced play ie. techs) which is seems he has done *both* so far.

I'd say most techs in brawl will be intentional, and compensated for for each charactrer to some extent. They have the know-how and expirence to do that kind of balancing now, there's no reason for them not to.