My problems with the Sheik Changes

[Deleted member]

here's what i would like to do:

- revert back to 3.5 sheik, and perform alterations from that point forward
- change bthrow to have a slightly higher release point
- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)
- weaken upsmash tip kill by reducing KBG
- add KBG to bthrow, dthrow. this will have to be tested, but i suggest starting with 1.5x and 2x whatever it currently is and playing around with it for a bit
- add BKB to fthrow to encourage it over dthrow at the edge. this will also have to be tested, but likely does not need very much for this purpose
- add a secret taunt matching link's ocarina, but with a harp typical to the character

this solves a few things:
1. helps her losing MUs against fastfallers
2. makes her throw combos less brutal vs good DI on opposing bad combo weights (ganon link lucario etc)
3. makes the character fun to play as and against the larger cast by smoothing out MU spread
4. makes the character less frustrating to play against for her easier opponents
5. removes the transform debacle entirely, which has been around for 3+ years
6. makes the character aesthetically flavorful with relatively little effort

addressing design criteria:
- adding growth to bthrow/dthrow makes the chaingrabbing less effective for damage and somewhat removes tech chase abuse
- no other degeneracy is added in the process, but its still far more reliable than her current toolkit
- the evened MU spread makes her more fun to play as and against, which is a nice win/win
- since her changes are given relatively fair trade-offs, her power level can be expected to remain the same
- these changes also correct long-standing issues that have been put aside for a long time

@Strong Bad

 

[hamyojo]

here's what i would like to do:

- revert back to 3.5 sheik, and perform alterations from that point forward
- change bthrow to have a slightly higher release point
- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)
- weaken upsmash tip kill by reducing KBG
- add KBG to bthrow, dthrow. this will have to be tested, but i suggest starting with 1.5x and 2x whatever it currently is and playing around with it for a bit
- add BKB to fthrow to encourage it over dthrow at the edge. this will also have to be tested, but likely does not need very much for this purpose
- add a secret taunt matching link's ocarina, but with a harp typical to the character

this solves a few things:
1. helps her losing MUs against fastfallers
2. makes her throw combos less brutal vs good DI on opposing bad combo weights (ganon link lucario etc)
3. makes the character fun to play as and against the larger cast by smoothing out MU spread
4. makes the character less frustrating to play against for her easier opponents
5. removes the transform debacle entirely, which has been around for 3+ years
6. makes the character aesthetically flavorful with relatively little effort

addressing design criteria:
- adding growth to bthrow/dthrow makes the chaingrabbing less effective for damage and somewhat removes tech chase abuse
- no other degeneracy is added in the process, but its still far more reliable than her current toolkit
- the evened MU spread makes her more fun to play as and against, which is a nice win/win
- since her changes are given relatively fair trade-offs, her power level can be expected to remain the same
- these changes also correct long-standing issues that have been put aside for a long time

@Strong Bad

Damn are these changes tasty. The Deku nut sounds so fun in teams!

 

[4tlas]

here's what i would like to do:

- revert back to 3.5 sheik, and perform alterations from that point forward
- change bthrow to have a slightly higher release point
- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)
- weaken upsmash tip kill by reducing KBG
- add KBG to bthrow, dthrow. this will have to be tested, but i suggest starting with 1.5x and 2x whatever it currently is and playing around with it for a bit
- add BKB to fthrow to encourage it over dthrow at the edge. this will also have to be tested, but likely does not need very much for this purpose
- add a secret taunt matching link's ocarina, but with a harp typical to the character

this solves a few things:
1. helps her losing MUs against fastfallers
2. makes her throw combos less brutal vs good DI on opposing bad combo weights (ganon link lucario etc)
3. makes the character fun to play as and against the larger cast by smoothing out MU spread
4. makes the character less frustrating to play against for her easier opponents
5. removes the transform debacle entirely, which has been around for 3+ years
6. makes the character aesthetically flavorful with relatively little effort

addressing design criteria:
- adding growth to bthrow/dthrow makes the chaingrabbing less effective for damage and somewhat removes tech chase abuse
- no other degeneracy is added in the process, but its still far more reliable than her current toolkit
- the evened MU spread makes her more fun to play as and against, which is a nice win/win
- since her changes are given relatively fair trade-offs, her power level can be expected to remain the same
- these changes also correct long-standing issues that have been put aside for a long time

@Strong Bad

I like everything you said here except removal of Transform. I think it makes far more sense to remove chain for the deku nut. I also dont know why Sheik would use the deku nut in that form instead of some other move that covers the space, so I would consider making it a counter or give it range beyond any of her normals. If it were made a counter, consider putting needles on sideB and the Deku on neutralB.

Everyone can agree that chain is useless. Some people like Transform, some dislike it. I find the vast majority of players don't have a problem with it. Everyone hates Chain because its just stupidly bad. Remove that first before looking at Transform (especially since you'd have to redo Zelda in tandem and you haven't suggested anything yet)

 

[Deleted member]

Damn are these changes tasty. The Deku nut sounds so fun in teams!

well **** it lets tag some other people and see what they think, maybe have an actual discussion instead of endless emo ranting.

@SOJ
@Hylian
@Sakurai
@Nintendo
@God

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hmm, these sound good. I'd like to see this tested out of course. Hilarious how you tagged Strongbad. I'd perfer a pinch more hitstun to needles though (So you don't HAVE to charge 6 all the time), also a safer jab (Screw CC).
Question, what will the Deku Nut move serve to Sheik in neutral, an option to open people up?
Also Umbreon actually likes Chain ZzZzzzZz.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Nah dawg Sheik needs more nerfs

Replace fair with chain

Done

 

[Deleted member]

needles are fine, anything better would make them really dumb

chain is hilarious, go have a childhood

 

[KinGly]

It'd certainly be interesting if deli nut were a means of dealing with cc, but with a good grab I'm not sure tat much is necessary of it. Could possibly serve as a means of escaping juggles if it functions similar to snakes c4 in terms of gravity, but works on a timer/impact

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

needles are fine, anything better would make them really dumb

chain is hilarious, go have a childhood

I imagine a pinch more hitstun (like 2~3 more per needle) would create a bait situation where the opponent has a need to stop you from charging them.
Also they would be more useful at 3~4 and pretty much dumb @ 6 needles. (That's why they need to stop you) The OP part is 6 Needles would potentially net some pretty nasty benefits. Eh, it's an idea.

 

[4tlas]

needles are fine, anything better would make them really dumb

chain is hilarious, go have a childhood

Oh I did, with all the other Smash games. Its terrible in PM. Somehow got the worst of Brawl chain and Melee chain.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah not to be that guy entirely but you'll just have to trust me that needles are fine and to not change them. when you go from "too bad" to "too good", you may have put the problem on the other side of the balance spectrum but its still problematic overall. sheik's needles are already ****ing great so making them better only introduces problems that we dont have atm. idk about you but personally its time we stopped moving backwards with this game.

and yes i know chain is useless, so is upthrow and transform. i wouldnt change the prior two anyway, and id only change the latter to match the ethos of the game with respect to matching other split chars like samus and pokemon trainer. switching to zelda is pretty much a terrible decision almost every time in a real match, so it has nothing to do with power level.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'll explain the psychology behind my Needle suggestion later. Now, what's the idea behind this Deku Nut?

 

[Juushichi]

this seems reasonable enough

 

[Arcalyth]

I like Umbreon's proposed changes, though I still think the KBG increase should be on bthrow only, not dthrow.

I always thought about a Deku Nut special so I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of it. Chain should also be fixed so it's usable (let it be a mixup to SH fair/needles that can punish CC at the risk of your loss of mobility, or make it a command grab of some sort). I could get behind removing Transform as sad as it would make me. It really does fit better with the design of the game since they did the same to ZSS and Pokemon Trainer. Plus then Sheik can get a new special to mitigate the recovery loss, and Zelda can get something neat too.

Last night I thought Zelda could get a burst movement option on her down-B like Lucario's double team, except it doesn't have invulnerability and it's JC-able. I think that would solve most of Zelda's problems in one fell swoop tbh.

 

[Frost | Odds]

here's what i would like to do:

- revert back to 3.5 sheik, and perform alterations from that point forward
- change bthrow to have a slightly higher release point
- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)
- weaken upsmash tip kill by reducing KBG
- add KBG to bthrow, dthrow. this will have to be tested, but i suggest starting with 1.5x and 2x whatever it currently is and playing around with it for a bit
- add BKB to fthrow to encourage it over dthrow at the edge. this will also have to be tested, but likely does not need very much for this purpose
- add a secret taunt matching link's ocarina, but with a harp typical to the character

this solves a few things:
1. helps her losing MUs against fastfallers
2. makes her throw combos less brutal vs good DI on opposing bad combo weights (ganon link lucario etc)
3. makes the character fun to play as and against the larger cast by smoothing out MU spread
4. makes the character less frustrating to play against for her easier opponents
5. removes the transform debacle entirely, which has been around for 3+ years
6. makes the character aesthetically flavorful with relatively little effort

addressing design criteria:
- adding growth to bthrow/dthrow makes the chaingrabbing less effective for damage and somewhat removes tech chase abuse
- no other degeneracy is added in the process, but its still far more reliable than her current toolkit
- the evened MU spread makes her more fun to play as and against, which is a nice win/win
- since her changes are given relatively fair trade-offs, her power level can be expected to remain the same
- these changes also correct long-standing issues that have been put aside for a long time

@Strong Bad

I couldn't endorse this list more strongly. Umbreon is one of the most intelligent, articulate people I know, especially with regards to smash. On the rare occasion he's wrong, it's basically always for the right reasons.

I don't think he's wrong about this.

Edit: @Jolteon

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Disclaimer: I'm not going out of my way to be a **** or argumentative for argument's sake. I just want to expose the true value of these suggestions before people start singing them gospel. The last thing I want is the same thing that happened to Bowser that happened to Sheik. (No offense @ Frost | Odds ).

@ Arcalyth They both have Teleports already, why not improve those for burst movement?

 

[4tlas]

and yes i know chain is useless, so is upthrow and transform. i wouldnt change the prior two anyway, and id only change the latter to match the ethos of the game with respect to matching other split chars like samus and pokemon trainer. switching to zelda is pretty much a terrible decision almost every time in a real match, so it has nothing to do with power level.

Upthrow isn't useless, and Transform allows for Sheilda which some people like and some dislike. In the meantime nobody likes Chain because everyone playing as Sheik goes "ew" and everyone playing against Sheik goes "uh, why does this exist again?". I'm not concerned with power level at all. If you want to have a debate about why Transform should/shouldn't exist, go ahead. But until then I see no reason to propose removing Transform over Chain.

 

[Arcalyth]

@ AuraMaudeGone I made a post in the Zelda Social Thread if you wanna discuss it there. We should keep this thread dedicated to Sheik.

 

[KinGly]

Upthrow isn't useless, and Transform allows for Sheilda which some people like and some dislike. In the meantime nobody likes Chain because everyone playing as Sheik goes "ew" and everyone playing against Sheik goes "uh, why does this exist again?". I'm not concerned with power level at all. If you want to have a debate about why Transform should/shouldn't exist, go ahead. But until then I see no reason to propose removing Transform over Chain.

Id honestly be happy with side b serving the same function as up b. The amount of times I've tried to recover by proofing left/right then accidentally pull out the chain and fall to my doom in embarrassing lol

 

[4tlas]

Id honestly be happy with side b serving the same function as up b. The amount of times I've tried to recover by proofing left/right then accidentally pull out the chain and fall to my doom in embarrassing lol

One time I jumped off ledge to edgeguard and the guy got past me and to the ledge (it was teams and I was counting on my partner to block that route). I tried to jump and upB to the right to get back on stage, but instead jumped and pulled out the chain. It hit him off the ledge and we both died from shock. Worth.

 

[foxygrandpa]

here's what i would like to do:

- revert back to 3.5 sheik, and perform alterations from that point forward
- change bthrow to have a slightly higher release point
- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)
- weaken upsmash tip kill by reducing KBG
- add KBG to bthrow, dthrow. this will have to be tested, but i suggest starting with 1.5x and 2x whatever it currently is and playing around with it for a bit
- add BKB to fthrow to encourage it over dthrow at the edge. this will also have to be tested, but likely does not need very much for this purpose
- add a secret taunt matching link's ocarina, but with a harp typical to the character

this solves a few things:
1. helps her losing MUs against fastfallers
2. makes her throw combos less brutal vs good DI on opposing bad combo weights (ganon link lucario etc)
3. makes the character fun to play as and against the larger cast by smoothing out MU spread
4. makes the character less frustrating to play against for her easier opponents
5. removes the transform debacle entirely, which has been around for 3+ years
6. makes the character aesthetically flavorful with relatively little effort

addressing design criteria:
- adding growth to bthrow/dthrow makes the chaingrabbing less effective for damage and somewhat removes tech chase abuse
- no other degeneracy is added in the process, but its still far more reliable than her current toolkit
- the evened MU spread makes her more fun to play as and against, which is a nice win/win
- since her changes are given relatively fair trade-offs, her power level can be expected to remain the same
- these changes also correct long-standing issues that have been put aside for a long time

@Strong Bad

I'd personally like sheik to have an uthrow mixup and keep her current bthrow, but I'm on board with anything as long as it helps her grab game.
I think fthrow is fine the way it is atm, it already tricks DI out at the edge, and frankly I don't think that sheik needs any help in terms of throwing people off the edge.

I'd like chain removed before transform. I understand removing transform leaves an option open for zelda, but I don't think that any characters should have any useless moves if we're going for homogeneous, normalized design. Even if it was useless, I'd rather have it useless and fun whereas chain is boring and dumb.

Also, I think that sheik should have some sort of crouch attack that's differentiated from dtilt with decent BKB. If it seems unfair, it doesnt have to be particularly useful, but it would match with the other crawling characters better, and create a more polished design.

 

[Arcalyth]

+1 Deku Nut on side-B. Can it function like Link bombs or Snake's grenade?
But with a Deku Nut item?

(Obviously the Deku Nut item can be changed to be fair as well)

 

[hamyojo]

Transforming is one of the most degenerate things in competitive Smash. Like, it's fun, yeah, but it's... I want Deku nut! I wanna be able to kill someone with it, then have the commentators make a nutting joke.
Also Diddy/Sheik team could have so many nut jokes.
THIS IS OPTIMAL.

 

[Deleted member]

diddy and sheik throwing mad protein at the opponents

a balanced breakfast

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

So Sheik needs a new projectile because?...

 

[Deleted member]

So Sheik needs a new projectile because?...

because it's fun and fits the character aesthetically, two concepts that this character is sorely lacking.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

because it's fun and fits the character aesthetically, two concepts that this character is sorely lacking.

Well, what exactly makes it "fun" (pretty subjective here)?
Devoting a whole special move for aesthetic reasoning (which I hope isn't your main point) is pretty shallow. What problems are we really solving here?

 

[Deleted member]

Well, what exactly makes it "fun" (pretty subjective here)?
Devoting a whole special move for aesthetic reasoning (which I hope isn't your main point) is pretty shallow. What problems are we really solving here?

well, you want to make the game fun so people don't all quit the character/game in the same week, which is basically what happened. fun is having something that actually fits the character, a sense of novelty, something for people to play with, it's interesting. people play melee young link for fun. there is nothing wrong with having a character have niche things that are also enjoyable for players. if you don't see the depth of "i want to troll you by throwing nuts at you for 6 minutes because that's hilarious" then i really cant help you. sometimes i like to chain glitch people or suicide kill them with chain because it's hilarious. if you want a 100% tournament grinder, there are already characters like that. if there's nothing fun about the game, people will simply stop playing it.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

well, you want to make the game fun so people don't all quit the character/game in the same week, which is basically what happened. fun is having something that actually fits the character, a sense of novelty, something for people to play with, it's interesting. People play melee young link for fun. there is nothing wrong with having a character have niche things that are also enjoyable for players. if you don't see the depth of "i want to troll you by throwing nuts at you for 6 minutes because that's hilarious" then i really cant help you. sometimes i like to chain glitch people or suicide kill them with chain because it's hilarious. if you want a 100% tournament grinder, there are already characters like that. if there's nothing fun about the game, people will simply stop playing it.

I agree with the bolded. Yes, people do appreciate novelty, when placed and used correctly and not whimsically. People play Melee Young Link, because as a whole, he's more interesting to them than other characters. You just slapping nuts onto Sheik is pretty whimsical, yea, but it's not the right place to be whimsical. There are plenty more ideas to explore before we can even consider this as a solid move replacement. I like looking at things holistically, and sorry, I just don't see this move being that useful to the grand scheme that is Sheik. Yea, I'd like more interesting things on Sheik, but I don't believe this is the right path. You already know how I feel about Chain.

 

[Deleted member]

holistically, i've already addressed her tournament viability and MU spread. what else do you want? marth's dair? you have to draw the line somewhere. part of being a good players is knowing which tools to use and when, and part of it is knowing which tools to not use at all. the character that has 0% fun/aesthetic appeal to the average gamer is the best place to be whimsical and experimental. you might want more "useful" things but i promise you that you will create problems in doing so, making sheik not dumb to play against is highly difficult given her baseline design, and a lot of players already think shes_good_at_****ing_everything.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

holistically, i've already addressed her tournament viability and MU spread. what else do you want? marth's dair? you have to draw the line somewhere. part of being a good players is knowing which tools to use and when, and part of it is knowing which tools to not use at all. the character that has 0% fun/aesthetic appeal to the average gamer is the best place to be whimsical and experimental. you might want more "useful" things but i promise you that you will create problems in doing so, making sheik not dumb to play against is highly difficult given her baseline design, and a lot of players already think shes_good_at_****ing_everything.

Mhm, mhm. When you talk about a character's design, her tournament viability and MU spread are byproducts which you can't measure until the end product arrives. Until then, yea we do have some more experimenting to do. The Deku Nut idea can still go on the chalk board, but no, I won't accept it as the end all be all. That's really short sighted. A good place to draw the line is what we imagine as "the ideal Sheik" and explicitly describe her game plan then figure her out her place in the bigger picture that's the cast. When you give yourself those limits it's pretty hard to make a crazy strong character unless you crossed those lines along the way.

You and I know she's not good at everything.

 

[Journal]

holistically, i've already addressed her tournament viability and MU spread. what else do you want? marth's dair? you have to draw the line somewhere. part of being a good players is knowing which tools to use and when, and part of it is knowing which tools to not use at all. the character that has 0% fun/aesthetic appeal to the average gamer is the best place to be whimsical and experimental. you might want more "useful" things but i promise you that you will create problems in doing so, making sheik not dumb to play against is highly difficult given her baseline design, and a lot of players already think shes_good_at_****ing_everything.

I already see myself getting a lot of use out of a deku nut for edgeguarding and getting grabs. Also, if it's an item rather than just a projectile, it could give Sheik an actual recovery mixup. It doesn't seem like it's purely aesthetic to me, which I like.

 

[Deleted member]

if sheik was good at everything i would push for her to be nerfed. 3.5 sheik was definitely just a little too good.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Quick question to hopefully straighten things out here:

- remove transform, replace it with sheik throwing a deku nut with an effect similar to a weaker ZSS dsmash (to match ocarina of time)

How exactly do you envision this working? Is the nut thrown to the ground in a space relatively close to Sheik and explodes there, or is it thrown at the opponent and stuns on contact a la the existing Deku Nut item?

And a question of my own: I've talked elsewhere about possible changes like making her a semi-FFer and slightly (slightly) buffing her max air speed to give her movement a more dynamic feel, possibly with other changes like a Brawl/SSB4-style fair to compliment that change. This is admittedly the talk of an outsider though - how would you feel about these changes, especially in tandem with any or all of the changes you've proposed above?

 

[Deleted member]

no i dont want it to act like the item lol

i wouldnt mind testing movement, but you have to know in advance that it pretty much always betrays character feel to experienced players. i tried a less floaty zelda and hated it for example.

 

[KinGly]

no i dont want it to act like the item lol

i wouldnt mind testing movement, but you have to know in advance that it pretty much always betrays character feel to experienced players. i tried a less floaty zelda and hated it for example.

Changing her movement would be a deal breaker for a lot of players like myself who play Sheik in both melee and Project M. I can understand that some people may want it, but I know there's a (sizeable) minority against it.

 

[Juushichi]

btw @Umbreon:

Sheik's release point on bthrow was already higher than dthrows in 3.5, are you proposing that it is even higher than that?

 

[Deleted member]

btw @Umbreon:

Sheik's release point on bthrow was already higher than dthrows in 3.5, are you proposing that it is even higher than that?

yes actually, and that was one of my favorite parts about it. i found myself using bthrow on FFs/PFFs and using dthrow more of floaties without thinking about it until i noticed it. then i realized it's similar to CF upthrow vs downthrow in melee- good falcon players tend to use upthrow much more because outside of blatant knee kills it's almost always better because you get better timing and position to work with. i love the differentiation of it, even if it is not very much.

and not a lot higher than 3.5 bthrow, just a little bit. anything i can do to make sheik more fun or to make jiang's life more miserable is probably a winning proposition.

 

[Missile]

I think @Umbreon 's proposed changes would be heading Sheik in the right direction.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just as long as no one ever seriously considers giving Shiek a tether.

Although if y'all changed chain into an aerial command grab that just pulls the opponent in and transitions into her regular grab as they land, that would be HILARIOUS.

[Yeah I have terrible ideas like this all the time]