My problems with the Sheik Changes

[Deleted member]

sheik basically owns the edge once she had it and sucks when she doesnt, i dont think a tether would change her much tbh

i'm not opposed to it or for it, i just dont think it would matter much either way.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

sheik basically owns the edge once she had it and sucks when she doesnt, i dont think a tether would change her much tbh

i'm not opposed to it or for it, i just dont think it would matter much either way.

Thinking about it, given the current state of tethers it probably wouldn't even be much of a recovery buff.

 

[Deleted member]

i talked to strongbad about it in my room, he pointed out that it changes the oppone ts method of edge coverage that negates the opponents positioning. in retrospect i agree with him and wouldnt want it in.

remember the goal is not to match 3.5 sheik because she had her own issues, we want to fix the char in the process.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

My idea dump. Rip it apart like presents on Christmas morning if you like.

Spoiler

These moveset ideas are based on the following;

Goals:
"Stretch the knockdown and choke out positioning from opposing characters"
— @ Juushichi

Pros

Great Punisher
Great Edgeguard Game
Solid Projectile
Great Combos
Transform (?)​

Cons

Weak overall Approach options
Weak to pressure
Unsafe Normals (They're a lot better when spaced, but still)

-- Highly suceptible to Crouch Canceling**​

Unsafe Recovery
Transform (?)
Chain (?)
Bad Air Speed​

What needs to be improved as a result (IMO)

Movement
Approach Options (grounded)
Her Special Moves​

? - Based on public opinion, but I'll explain my stance later

Moveset Ideas

Grounded Normals
At the moment her normal ground moves are highly susceptible to CC when not expertly spaced except F-Smash. This limits Sheik's options to act on her own prerogative by a lot and makes her very predictable in this area. My only suggestion here is to make her Jabs -3~0f advantage on hit. Every character deserves at least a couple safe moves to mix up between on the ground to be used as a approach/footsies. This is my biggest peeve with Sheik, having to rely on my opponent messing up 80% of the time with the smallest tool box to use for baiting mistakes out. (Especially at low percents). I would also suggest to increase the start up time of the Jabs to 3~4 so it's not oppressive in neutral.

Aerials
Not much to say here. Beautiful moves imo. (Yes, even D-Air)

Specials
Needle Storm** - Earlier in the thread I mentioned giving Needles an additional pinch (2~3f) of hitstun and promised to further elaborate on my reasoning. I believe making 6 needles charged being such a threat creates a situation where your opponent feels the need to approach you in order to stop your sudden power creep. Sheik at a fundamental level still needs people to approach her in order for her to be most effective (Her Punish game). If 6 Needles is a bigger threat, (about 60f of hitstun, followups technically would be possible at late percentages, etc possible advantages), you could use this as a bait for your opponent to possibly stop his game plan to keep checking on your Needle charge. With your opponent more focused on that, Sheik can take advantage and punish bad approaches to her. Just possessing 6 needles w/o using them could cause some your opponents some stress with them constantly looking out for you using them.

There are solid ways to get around Needles too, so I believe this wouldn't be too crazy, just trying to create some interactive game play here. I would also suggest that Needle charging to be a little slower with this effect in place.
**Not a high priority to me

Chain - I want to give this move a chance. The move by itself doesn't seem to fit Sheik at all imo, like Sakurai just put there just because or w/e. Briefly talking about it w/ @Umbreon it does have some pretty cool niche uses w/ Chain Jacket glitch. Though, not everyone's creative as M2K and Umbreon with the Chain. :L I made a suggestion earlier in the thread to make a tether grab similar to Link's, but thinking about it further, that doesn't really scream Sheik. Lucas, T/Link, ZS/Samus, and Ivysaur are 6 characters with tethers already, and I don't think the cast needs another one...
I'll probably edit this later with more ideas for it.

Vanish - Not looking to make this move better, but I'm curious about a few things. When 3.5 dropped there were a few posts here concerning Shino Stalling not feeling right. I also saw a sudden drop of the technique. Was this confirmed to be broken with the patch? Did anyone ever examine this? We never got an official answer. If there's really nothing wrong with it, cool. If there is, FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT.

Transform - I'm pretty indifferent to this move. If it gets removed, oh well; if it doesn't, cool I get to play with 2 characters at will. Logically, this move has to be replaced due to the previous treatment to Pokemon Trainer and Samus.
(No 4tlas, I won't discuss this with you).
In the event that it does get removed though, I'm going to take @Arcalyth's idea and suggest it should be replaced with a command dash mixed with characteristics from Ike's Quick Dash and Lucario's Double Team. A mid range dash (long enough to get to the other side of a character) that's not invincible and can be Jump Cancelled. I wouldn't allow this to occur in the air though. Another approach option, yes. It also allows more manipulation of spacing when you mix this up with her Wave Dash and creates more opportunities to bait out whiffs and bad moves.

Throws
Regarding B-Throw and D-Throw; I'm pretty indifferent to the changes applied in the 3.6 beta. Ironically the B-Throw change doesn't bother much "cuz melee". They work for their intended purpose I guess. I wouldn't mind if the 3.5 throws came back toned down.
Up Throw - Change this to an Izuna Drop. No really, why doesn't she have this as a ninja? I wouldn't know what the exact stats would be right at this moment, but I would suggest that it scores a hard knockdown on landing. (A soft knockdown is also interesting for tech chasing). We might even see some cool platform play.

Basic Defenses
Pretty covered here. Slightly above standard too.

TL;DR Give her a safe approach so she can be proactive for once. Needs more deceptive traits to bait out bad decisions and some cool ninja stuff pls.

PS: If she gets a Harp taunt, can it have a tiny sleep hitbox. Not being serious here. lol
Also, I'm not suggesting all of these ideas should go in together at once. They're all separate ideas related to goal I mentioned.

 

[Juushichi]

I don't really have much to say to your other concepts, honestly have to ruminate more on them, but the reason that Shino stalling isn't as potent is because you lose invincibility at the ledge after a few consecutive ledgegrabs.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I don't really have much to say to your other concepts, honestly have to ruminate more on them, but the reason that Shino stalling isn't as potent is because you lose invincibility at the ledge after a few consecutive ledgegrabs.

But the timing and everything else works the same, right?

 

[Juushichi]

I wouldn't be able to say definitively. It feels a lot similar to me.

 

[4tlas]

The only thing I was going to say about Transform was "we've discussed this already, dissent exists". Assuming I'm going to be belligerent seems rude to me.

Anyway, I was going to talk about your other proposals. I think improving the charge of needle storms to encourage approaches from the opponent is a good idea, but improving each individual needle (while also slowing down the charge rate) seems oppressive. I think that would make an individual needle too good. Perhaps a better idea would be to buff them all if Sheik gets to max charge. I'm not sure if this is doable with the way needles are coded, though.

Chain as-is does not work in PM. Its Brawl chain with Melee physics, which means it doesn't stun much against aerial opponents and its easy to fall out or CC it. I'm fine with Chain as a concept and enjoyed it in both Melee and Brawl, but it just isn't usable in this state. Chain Jacket glitch doesn't save it. I think a tether grab wouldnt be inappropriate but as you said we already have several tether grabs (and what would it do in the air??) so I think that's out. A tether recovery wouldn't actually do much since edgehog-> punish onstage would be exactly the same gameplan for opponents.

As for thinking of a replacement move, I think a double team-esque ability might work. On the other hand, her roll isn't the worst for that already. I think a deku nut counter would be super cool, but it may overlap with her current gameplan too much (make enemy approach, stuff it). Letting her throw a deku nut to stun opponents might be good. Letting her spawn it in her hand would let her AGT which would give her some great aerial mobility and recovery mixups, but it might also be too flexible. Just throwing out ideas.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The only thing I was going to say about Transform was "we've discussed this already, dissent exists". Assuming I'm going to be belligerent seems rude to me.

Anyway, I was going to talk about your other proposals. I think improving the charge of needle storms to encourage approaches from the opponent is a good idea, but improving each individual needle (while also slowing down the charge rate) seems oppressive. I think that would make an individual needle too good. Perhaps a better idea would be to buff them all if Sheik gets to max charge. I'm not sure if this is doable with the way needles are coded, though.

Chain as-is does not work in PM. Its Brawl chain with Melee physics, which means it doesn't stun much against aerial opponents and its easy to fall out or CC it. I'm fine with Chain as a concept and enjoyed it in both Melee and Brawl, but it just isn't usable in this state. Chain Jacket glitch doesn't save it. I think a tether grab wouldnt be inappropriate but as you said we already have several tether grabs (and what would it do in the air??) so I think that's out. A tether recovery wouldn't actually do much since edgehog-> punish onstage would be exactly the same gameplan for opponents.

Oh no, I just assumed you're really sensitive about the subject so I rather not start a quarrel with you about it if that makes it sound any better. D:
As for Chain, yea. I dunno what other good alternatives we could come up for it that fits the whole game plan without overloading her Special kit.

 

[4tlas]

Oh no, I just assumed you're really sensitive about the subject so I rather not start a quarrel with you about it if that makes it sound any better. D:
As for Chain, yea. I dunno what other good alternatives we could come up for it that fits the whole game plan without overloading her Special kit.

I figured, and that's why I still responded normally instead of being sensitive and claiming that I'm being persecuted against. =)

I think what we want to replace/reinvent chain for is filling a hole in her kit, but not very effectively. She is already a good character and we certainly want her overall playstyle to remain similar to her old kit. A situational move like a counter is good because it has a higher skill ceiling than no move (chain) but very rarely does anything for her that she couldn't already do (thus making it very situational and not much of a buff, which is good). The high risk of activating her counter as opposed to just stuffing an approach with ftilt would hopefully be worth hitting them with a deku nut, either propelling them backward if in the air or stunning them if on the ground (and enabling the punish of Sheik's choosing). The one problem I have with the idea is that edgeguarding might become too simple, so I think it should put you into special fall.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I figured, and that's why I still responded normally instead of being sensitive and claiming that I'm being persecuted against. =)

I think what we want to replace/reinvent chain for is filling a hole in her kit, but not very effectively. She is already a good character and we certainly want her overall playstyle to remain similar to her old kit. A situational move like a counter is good because it has a higher skill ceiling than no move (chain) but very rarely does anything for her that she couldn't already do (thus making it very situational and not much of a buff, which is good). The high risk of activating her counter as opposed to just stuffing an approach with ftilt would hopefully be worth hitting them with a deku nut, either propelling them backward if in the air or stunning them if on the ground (and enabling the punish of Sheik's choosing). The one problem I have with the idea is that edgeguarding might become too simple, so I think it should put you into special fall.

A counter move, sorta like substitute from Smash 4, or a Fire Emblem type of counter?
While the rest of your post sounds good, she kinda does this already w/ Needles (charged ofc).

 

[4tlas]

A counter move, sorta like substitute from Smash 4, or a Fire Emblem type of counter?
While the rest of your post sounds good, she kinda does this already w/ Needles (charged ofc).

Yes, a counter like that, but instead she chucks a deku nut at her feet.

Yeah she can do this with needles, but only when charged and when almost hitting the ground, otherwise it doesn't lead to anything. So in the sense that the optimal use is similar, yeah she already has this filled. And that's kind of the point, since that way it isn't a significant buff. She just gains a new way to achieve this part of her gameplan, making her more flexible and allowing players to show their expertise in different scenarios.

Also if the opponent is airborne, a deku nut currently sends them flying which is different from needles.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Yes, a counter like that, but instead she chucks a deku nut at her feet.

Yeah she can do this with needles, but only when charged and when almost hitting the ground, otherwise it doesn't lead to anything. So in the sense that the optimal use is similar, yeah she already has this filled. And that's kind of the point, since that way it isn't a significant buff. She just gains a new way to achieve this part of her gameplan, making her more flexible and allowing players to show their expertise in different scenarios.

Also if the opponent is airborne, a deku nut currently sends them flying which is different from needles.

What if this counter just lead to a Vanish explosion (which also uses a Deku Nut coincidentally)?

 

[4tlas]

What if this counter just lead to a Vanish explosion (which also uses a Deku Nut coincidentally)?

It would have to be a larger radius to actually hit the things its countering, but I think that would be fine too. I think a deku nut explosion is preferable though because it does different things vs ground and air, but Vanish could work too.

 

[Thor]

Unless we're completely unallowed to take anything from Smash 4 whatsoever [even if it would be justified as being from some other game]...

replace chain with bouncing fish [and *possibly* make bouncing fish an unconventional meteor smash, so that it's safe on hit at zero vs an opponent attempting to ASDI down]. Problem solved!

*For those who don't know what an unconventional meteor smash is, http://www.ssbwiki.com/Unconventional_meteor_smash

 

[Deleted member]

i dont want to shoot down any creativity here but sheik having a counter would be incredibly stupid to actually play against

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

i dont want to shoot down any creativity here but sheik having a counter would be incredibly stupid to actually play against

Mhm, I was thinking about it a little bit today. It would be pretty frustrating. The only character that would have SOME chance against her would be long disjoints and projectile based characters to some degree.
Then I was wondering, how of then do people use the FE counter moves?

 

[Deleted member]

fire emblem chars need very specific positioning to be good from dedicated sweetspots and no lingering hitboxes, the use of movement generally means counter is limited on good play. sheiks moves are super splashable and flexible in utility and opting counter for her would make it really dumb

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

fire emblem chars need very specific positioning to be good from dedicated sweetspots and no lingering hitboxes, the use of movement generally means counter is limited on good play. sheiks moves are super splashable and flexible in utility and opting counter for her would make it really dumb

@ 4tlas just said yea to my post and didn't specify which counter we were actually discussing lmao. I'mma just go with FE. If that's the case, wouldn't Sheik just pose and wait for a hit like them though? I can imagine the same positioning requirements would be needed. Regardless, it would make approaching Sheik a chore.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik with a counter would also still have her godly wavedash and shield game in and out of flexible ubiquotous moves with no real sourspots and needles and yeah. i think sheik sucks now because shes not threatening but her defensive options are still godly. we want to round her out by making her approaches better. not by adding buffs to **** thats already amazing. slamming a bunch of ******** defensive options onto a char with no approaches gives us the mistake that was 3.02 zelda. lets just choose to not repeat that. no counter imo

 

[Missile]

Something I had suggested before was giving her another charge projectile that has the same animation and properties as her needle charge in replacement to her side B. It would be as follows:

Give her a single "needle" throw that requires the same charge time as her needle storm, but it'd throw a single projectile at the same speed as the needles and the same distance, and with a special property such as sleep, poison, or stun. What it shouldn't have is the same 45* Angle as the needles. It should be a STRAIGHT projectile all the time. The animation could be similar to her grenade toss in smash4. Just like her needles, they should be shield cancelable in the ground and air.

The idea behind it is that it'd give her a mixup between needles and the new side B; making the animation and sound the same, except for the visual cue of the needles in her hand when she's charging them to differentiate it is how it'd accomplish it.

It could be like Snake's sleep dart, but instead of having 3 shots with 1 charge, she'd only have 1, or it could make the strength of the sleep effect relative to the charge time on the projectile.

It could be a light stun projectile, like the ZSS stun gun, depending on how charged it is, is how much it stuns, but it CANNOT stun as much as ZSS's stun gun.

It could be a poison dart that has some hitstun on impact, autocancels like needles, and does some damage sort of like Ivysaur's flower/leech seed.

Unlike Snake, ZSS however this new projectile cannot be intangible. It should have the same size/hitboxes as the needles, since these are as balanced as they can be with the nerfs they received previously IMO. Basically any disjoint clanks with them which is more than enough.


Her DownB could be a burst movement option, perhaps an air dash to help her poor aerial mobility.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Something I had suggested before was giving her another charge projectile that has the same animation and properties as her needle charge in replacement to her side B. It would be as follows:

Give her a single "needle" throw that requires the same charge time as her needle storm, but it'd throw a single projectile at the same speed as the needles and the same distance, and with a special property such as sleep, poison, or stun. What it shouldn't have is the same 45* Angle as the needles. It should be a STRAIGHT projectile all the time. The animation could be similar to her grenade toss in smash4. Just like her needles, they should be shield cancelable in the ground and air.

The idea behind it is that it'd give her a mixup between needles and the new side B; making the animation and sound the same, except for the visual cue of the needles in her hand when she's charging them to differentiate it is how it'd accomplish it.

It could be like Snake's sleep dart, but instead of having 3 shots with 1 charge, she'd only have 1, or it could make the strength of the sleep effect relative to the charge time on the projectile.

It could be a light stun projectile, like the ZSS stun gun, depending on how charged it is, is how much it stuns, but it CANNOT stun as much as ZSS's stun gun.

It could be a poison dart that has some hitstun on impact, autocancels like needles, and does some damage sort of like Ivysaur's flower/leech seed.

Unlike Snake, ZSS however this new projectile cannot be intangible. It should have the same size/hitboxes as the needles, since these are as balanced as they can be with the nerfs they received previously IMO. Basically any disjoint clanks with them which is more than enough.


Her DownB could be a burst movement option, perhaps an air dash to help her poor aerial mobility.

Pretty creative idea.
I always thought her down b should be something like brawl ZSS because it would fit the character but i don't know if it really brings sheik in a good direction in terms of game design. I'd be ok with it if it wasn't too good for recovery.
Sleep dart idea is interesting though, but i'm under the impression it should be strictly worse than snakes and very situational and obvious. I don't think she entirely needs new projectile.

 

[Missile]

Pretty creative idea.
I always thought her down b should be something like brawl ZSS because it would fit the character but i don't know if it really brings sheik in a good direction in terms of game design. I'd be ok with it if it wasn't too good for recovery.
Sleep dart idea is interesting though, but i'm under the impression it should be strictly worse than snakes and very situational and obvious. I don't think she entirely needs new projectile.

The way I have it in my mind it'd be another tool for tech chasing (sleep or stun) or neutral game aid (poison dart deals damage for a set time, is used as a poke/chip damage, sort of like Olimar's Pikmin).

Since it's a charged projectile whose effectiveness is directly proportional to its charge time, it means it isn't spammable AND effective at the same time. It could be made so that for example:
1. The sleep dart doesn't make you fall asleep unless it is charged X amount, and it only deals a low amount of damage and hitstun (a little bit stronger than a single needle) below that charge amount.
2. The poison dart doesn't deal as much damage uncharged as it does charged (~3-4% uncharged, ~15-20% fully charged over multiple hits (a la Pikmin)
3. Stun dart is just hitstun uncharged, charged it stuns with a similar animation as a Shield Break.

She could also perhaps get a Piercing Dart (heavy shield damage charged), or an explosive dart (sort of like Smash4 Megaman's sticky bomb, which is a delayed explosion; I think this idea is also viable for Sheik's design as a character). The property dart idea I think just lets you do whatever with it, which is why I'm fond of it, and I think it fits a ninja character really well.

What I meant by air dash was literally an air dash, reminiscent of ROBs, perhaps with similar usage.

Obviously, before all of these changes (were they to be implemented), Sheik's character design needs to be planned out and established permanently, and I think @Umbreon 's suggested path to take with her is the best start.

 

[Deleted member]

there has been nothing forthcoming to suggest that any character design is permanent, so i dont think we should plan for that. better imo to have a design where theres just no need to change it again to be as close as possible. for that reason, we should stay away from burst movement imo, it has a lot of potential for jank and frankly doesnt benefit our character much.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

If PMDT does keep side b chain I hope they bring back the tether. Sure it gives about the same interaction when the opponent holds the ledge, but would allow for a few mix ups when they're not holding it. And with a tether it'd allow for more sneaky ledgehogs with hanging and all that. I think that kinda suits Sheik's ninja-esque persona. With the new tether mechanics I think a second look at that might be something that can give Sheik and the opponent a little bit more fun interaction offstage.

 

[4tlas]

If PMDT does keep side b chain I hope they bring back the tether. Sure it gives about the same interaction when the opponent holds the ledge, but would allow for a few mix ups when they're not holding it. And with a tether it'd allow for more sneaky ledgehogs with hanging and all that. I think that kinda suit's Sheik's ninja-esque persona. With the new tether mechanics I think a second look at that might be something that can give Sheik and the opponent a little bit more fun interaction offstage.

I agree. Furthermore, since the new tether mechanics have so much counterplay, I see no reason not to give her the option of the tether. This assumes they keep Chain at all, which I would not recommend unless they make it usable.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

I agree. Furthermore, since the new tether mechanics have so much counterplay, I see no reason not to give her the option of the tether. This assumes they keep Chain at all, which I would not recommend unless they make it usable.

They've been shy to drastically change the Melee tops all that much. The good thing with this change is it doesn't really grant her much more recovery distance at all. Just another way to mess with the timing if she's already in range.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik has been changed quite a bit already and is pretty far removed from the sacred cow melee vet image that goes with say fox and falco. even crawl by itself changes the character immensely. as stringent as it is for design requirements, i think we should knock these ideas off the table, as they have little to no chance for implementation:

- reflector
- tether
- counter
- burst movement
- keeping transform as-is

its been made pretty clear that transform is sketchy at best and at least subject to change. its very unlikely that sheik would ever get more edge dominance via a tether or more defensive options via a counter/reflector. we should focus on things that improve her conversions and harassment in neutral, which is why i went with throw changes and the deku nut idea respectively. that said, other ideas are still welcome, but with the tacit implication that you should consider the end product first- sheik is good defensively and bad offensively, and has potential for a very stifling ground game, so we want to add things that make her more threatening, have little or no defensive value, and doesnt further ruin characters she already destroys like link or ganondorf. just something to consider. personally i'm still 100% fine with a useless chain, and i think buffing/fixing it could end up very silly. i seriously dont want to make more problems than we solve at this point in the games development, that kind of extreme experimentation should have ended with 2.6 imo

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

For the most part I agree, but I wanna add some points.

its been made pretty clear that transform is sketchy at best and at least subject to change.

If anyone in the DT reads this, has removing Transform ever been brought to the table? Especially when the decision was made to split up Pokémon Trainer?

that said, other ideas are still welcome, but with the tacit implication that you should consider the end product first- sheik is good defensively and bad offensively, and has potential for a very stifling ground game, so we want to add things that make her more threatening, have little or no defensive value, and doesnt further ruin characters she already destroys like link or ganondorf. just something to consider.

I still think short burst movement outside of WD would help accomplish this.

personally i'm still 100% fine with a useless chain, and i think buffing/fixing it could end up very silly. i seriously dont want to make more problems than we solve at this point in the games development, that kind of extreme experimentation should have ended with 2.6 imo

I believe things won't get too out of hand if we stick to the script. A move with a purpose will always be better than a move without one. If most people don't find inherent value in Chain, I believe it deserves to be looked at and reevaluated.

 

[Deleted member]

chain does have a use- its fun. seriously, i enjoy the character more with it. i dont want it touched, except maybe to make chain jacket easier or funnier somehow (look at you samus swd kids)

to my knowledge, transform's debate has been like "hey we should remove this" and then everyone being like "yeah lets do that" and then it just hasnt happened for 3 years. ofc im not on the development team so im mostly speculating like the rest of you (and if i was in the dev team for real i wouldnt say **** id just remove it already)

 

[foxygrandpa]

chain does have a use- its fun. seriously, i enjoy the character more with it. i dont want it touched, except maybe to make chain jacket easier or funnier somehow (look at you samus swd kids)

to my knowledge, transform's debate has been like "hey we should remove this" and then everyone being like "yeah lets do that" and then it just hasnt happened for 3 years. ofc im not on the development team so im mostly speculating like the rest of you (and if i was in the dev team for real i wouldnt say **** id just remove it already)

I don't mean any disrespect but I don't think that anyone else actually likes the chain.

 

[4tlas]

I don't mean any disrespect but I don't think that anyone else actually likes the chain.

I love it in Melee and Brawl, because it worked. It doesn't work in PM, so I hate it.


Umbreon, did you consider the possibility that nothing got done because all of the voices in favor were barely in favor and all of the voices against were vehemently against, to the point where they don't even argue about it anymore? That's the impression I've gotten, but again I'm not PMDT. I can totally understand not wanting to argue about it anymore, since even I am thoroughly sick of debating the topic and I care a LOT about it.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't mean any disrespect but I don't think that anyone else actually likes the chain.

i thought that way before. in retrospect i realized i wasnt screwing falcon players hard enough. i loathe that character, and nothing says "i hate you" like chain edge guards

 

[foxygrandpa]

i thought that way before. in retrospect i realized i wasnt screwing falcon players hard enough. i loathe that character, and nothing says "i hate you" like chain edge guards

I totally understand where you're coming from. Literally has easier combos than sheik does and people go crazy it for some reason. Meanwhile, my ftilit>fairs go completely unappreciated.
But still, wouldn't it be more fun to give her a better option? I dont even think it should be entirely usable, but something that would work universally across the cast? like harp putting people to sleep without a proper punish like sing for down b, and make deku nuts side special?
The chain means so little to the character and I don't even recall it being in anything but smash.
If it stays, at least give it some more utility like making it longer or easier to control or something. I understand how it can be fun, but I still think that it could be made into something much more interesting.

Who knows though, we could all be here talking about changes that never get implemented.

 

[Deleted member]

Who knows though, we could all be here talking about changes that never get implemented.

anything reasonable has a good shot for 4.0. you let me worry about 3.6 final for the time being.

 

[Journal]

@Umbreon justice bruh

 

[Deleted member]

see you guys in the skype chat later i guess

 

[Juushichi]

there's a skype chat

 

[Deleted member]

there's a skype chat

not for you icky midwest kids

i'll add you when i get out of bed lol

 

[Tomaster]

not for you icky midwest kids

i'll add you when i get out of bed lol

Add me plz... Tomaster1275