My opinion on Ganon's lack of Buffs

[GerudoKong]

So I know after this 1.1.3 patch Ganon got a few improvements but in general I get the feel most of us are disappointed on how other characters have received many more buffs than Ganon since the game's start. Well I think I understand Sakurai's reasoning behind it (although I don't agree with it). Ganon is probably the number one noob killer character in this game. When casual players get together and play in free for all, Ganon is that one character that pisses everyone off because of how "broken" he is. And because Sakurai has admitted before he wants the game to be played mostly in a friendly casual environment, he is afraid to make Ganon better. With Ganon's signature strength not being something that should be decreased, improving frame data or combo ability would make Ganon too destructive in a casual environment. It's the same idea behind Charizard's Flare Blitz being nerfed since it's release. Although in a tournament it's not really a move likely to land, casual players were destroyed by this move.

This is what I think Sakurai and the balance team are doing, and why Ganon is unlikely to be improved in the last upcoming patch.

 

[Conn1496]

TBH I think Ganon right out got nerfed. His D-smash hits at an angle I'm not sure is better, his new N-air boxes are pretty damn bad... Like the second hit is stronger now, too, but I've had more than one occasion where they just still don't string properly and the first, more likely to hit hitbox now no-longer knocks back at all. What the hell?

We basically just got special move buffs in my eyes. I was already not playing much Ganon and had recently dropped him to a secondary from a main, and this was just the nail in the coffin to drop him even further down my list.

I dunno about you but this one got me outright mad.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It could be worse. At least we're not Puff, Zelda, or Dedede. We are actually getting some nice buffs overall, but it takes character knowledge and practice to really take advantage of them. Can't just Nairplane everything anymore. Maybe we haven't won the lottery with our buffs, but we've gotten some nice improvements to go along with inexplicable NAir reworkings, and there are worse characters who've gotten less.

 

[Xandercosm]

I have to say, though, it's not hard to improve the character without hurting casuals at all. What about making Ganondorf's dair auto cancel from a short-hop. That alone could make him way better. They just have to get creative with the buffs.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I have to say, though, it's not hard to improve the character without hurting casuals at all. What about making Ganondorf's dair auto cancel from a short-hop. That alone could make him way better. They just have to get creative with the buffs.

That would massacre casuals so brutally. A frame 6 Jab would be a better buff.

 

[Xandercosm]

That would massacre casuals so brutally. A frame 6 Jab would be a better buff.

Eh, maybe. They'd only be massacred if the Ganondorf was actually decent, though.

 

[adom4]

I do like what they did to Dark dive, the move doesn't feel worthless on grab anymore, that added damage & knockback makes it a usable OOS option which Ganon sorely needs (even if it isn't amazing it's something).
Also the 2 frames off Dair could make it combo more reliably hopefully.

 

[Dar4]

Ganon atleast has gotten consistent buffs over the patches. Other characters like have gotten basically nothing since launch. Ganon I don't think is designed for 1v1 but it's cool to see the developers try and make him competitive. He's not bad at all in this game. Very useable in lots of matchups.

 

[Vermanubis]

Honestly, what would help Ganon more than anything is a nerf to rolls. Quit buffing him and just nerf everyone else's rolls. Without that OP movement option, Ganon could actually exert some kind of pressure. His only decent punish for rolls now that DAir's gone is wizkick (unsafest move with lowest reward ever) and choke. Fsmash and other gimmicky hard-read options exist, but given how easy it is to PS and punish them, it's not even worth it in high-level play.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree with Vermanubis for the most part. The buffs Ganon has gotten over the past patches have been minor buffs at best, and something Ganon should have had from the very start of the game.

The previous nair was better than what we currently have right now, but that doesn't mean that the current nair is not a good move. The added super armour on the reverse warlock punch will help during team matches in certain situations (ie. Shield break). The added 2-3 frames on warlock punch is also a bonus. The small reduction of lag from aerials will be most noticable with dair (I'm sure Gungnir is very happy about that) and also nair. The other buffs, again, welcomed but minor.

What Ganon really needs are two things;

First, a "hooh ha". The simple adjustment to Bowser's uthrow is better than pretty much all the buffs Ganon has gotten. For such easy yet powerful setups, such combos from grabs should be limited to characters who have a hard time grabbing, such as Ganon himself.

And, also, as Vermanubis said above, nerfing very overpowered dodging options.

 

[Blobface]

Er, to be honest, Ganondorf really shouldn't have a killing grab confirm. Due to how powerful his aerials are, there's literally no way to have him grab confirm without making it absurd with rage. Even the tamest thing you could do, something like U-throw to Dark Dive uppercut, would get ridiculous with rage, killing at like, 50-70%.

I do still think he should be able to kill out of grabs though. Having U-throw kill at like 140/100 with/without rage and optimal DI would be reasonable given how hard Ganon works for grabs.

Another roll nerf is possible honestly, but I think that Wizkick itself could use some fine tuning. Less endlag, more damage + knockback, and enough BKB to always be safe on hit, along with potentially a more horizontal angle. Basically, since it's basically his only good way to beat rolls, less risk, more reward.

And to be blunt, what they did with Bowser and DK was really dumb.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Really Ganon doesn't need a lot more to make it to mid-tier. If he were to get back 1.1.0 Nair with the landing lag buff he got in this patch and a frame 6 jab he'd be pretty solid overall with a formidable spacing game. Maybe an extra 1% on Wizkick in addition would make him really feel complete. He already has a number of very strong tools but has a couple of holes in his game that hold him back.

 

[verbatim]

And to be blunt, what they did with Bowser and DK was really dumb.

There's at least one more patch left, and they've buffed pretty much every part of Ganon's moveset except for jab and throws up to this point.

 

[Vermanubis]

With the last patch incoming (it <is> incoming... right?), I really need to record the things I genuinely feel need changing. Thus far, whenever I populate a list, it's always an admittedly half-thought-out, extemporaneous sort of thing.

My one true wish involves a choke buff. If not choke, then a buff to shieldstun on a few moves. Whatever way happens to give us a consistent way to kill for winning an exchange at reasonable percents, be it a kill throw, universal follow-ups, etc. I'll take it. Maybe tweak something such that choke isn't so useless in so many MUs. Risky as it is, I don't see why Lucario can have a command throw that kills and Ganon can't, at least, without such tribulation.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If I were really to go out there for buffs, I might consider asking for a grab range, hitbox, and speed that aren't absolutely worthless even if it wasn't accompanied by a kill throw or kill setups.

Everything after that (an actual jab, some way of eating projectiles added to Wizkick, not being the slowest overall character in the game without being the heaviest, Thunderstorm back, removing the stupid tech window from SideB or allowing followups on the whole cast, fixing the incredibly stupid bug on Fair that has rendered it incapable of autocanceling since Brawl, etc etc) would just be gravy.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Sakurai's thought process is not difficult to comprehend. He has made it very clear that he balances the game around "experienced casual" levels of play, and that's very intentional. At that level of play, Ganon is totally viable, because his up-smash has solid IASA utility, his fsmash can obliterate stocks with a decent read, and flame choke is a major threat.

What he NEEDS is a utility, like what has been speculated, that has uses at high-level play but won't really affect mid or low-level play. Something difficult to perform but with consistent results, a seriously threatening option out of shield or while in disadvantage state that rush-down characters have to respect. I'm not sure what that would be, necessarily. I don't like hoo-hahs at all.

My instinct is that he needs a confirm that can be done out of a move like up-B. Something where, if you are caught by the grab, Ganon has frame advantage and can force a 50/50 at least.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sakurai's thought process is not difficult to comprehend. He has made it very clear that he balances the game around "experienced casual" levels of play, and that's very intentional. At that level of play, Ganon is totally viable, because his up-smash has solid IASA utility, his fsmash can obliterate stocks with a decent read, and flame choke is a major threat.

What he NEEDS is a utility, like what has been speculated, that has uses at high-level play but won't really affect mid or low-level play. Something difficult to perform but with consistent results, a seriously threatening option out of shield or while in disadvantage state that rush-down characters have to respect. I'm not sure what that would be, necessarily. I don't like hoo-hahs at all.

My instinct is that he needs a confirm that can be done out of a move like up-B. Something where, if you are caught by the grab, Ganon has frame advantage and can force a 50/50 at least.

1.1.3 probably was the utility patch. You'll probably need some more advanced stuff to get the most out of the new Nair, Dair, and Up-B. Right now what we really need is a Jab frame data buff to help vs. rushdown.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

From a design perspective, though, heavy characters are supposed to struggle with rushdown. Which is why I think the solution needs to be a more complex one than just a fast jab (though I wouldn't complain). Otherwise, it shifts his lower and mid-level strength a little too much in his favor.

At casual levels of play, Sheik can't kill for ANYTHING; now imagine if she can't safely approach either.

 

[HeavyLobster]

From a design perspective, though, heavy characters are supposed to struggle with rushdown. Which is why I think the solution needs to be a more complex one than just a fast jab (though I wouldn't complain). Otherwise, it shifts his lower and mid-level strength a little too much in his favor.

At casual levels of play, Sheik can't kill for ANYTHING; now imagine if she can't safely approach either.

2 frames faster jab is not going to break him at lower levels of play. He's only decent there while being distinctly subpar at higher levels of play. A frame 6 jab wouldn't completely solve his rushdown issues either, just ameliorate them a bit. At least they could make his jab's endlag not terrible so it won't be as outclassed.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Well, optimally, we would be offered a complete solution to our balance crisis, not just an amelioration. Like you said, a fast jab might help, but at the end of the day, Ganon should be threatening.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In my opinion, to make all of Ganon's matchups in singles reasonable for Ganon, it would require the following buffs:

1. Frame 5 or 6 Jab with much less endlag that isn't unreasonably useless for dealing with close range pressure or spotdodge
2. 2 damage universal increase to Grounded Wizkick with minor growth decrease but significant BKB increasewhen we have nothing else to blitz opponents at mid-long range
3. Some leg intangibility on Ganon's D-tilt so that it cleanly beats other DAs rather than clanking
4. SH autocancel D-air, F-air, or 3 frame hitbox duration buff on U-smash, serving as hard punishes in close range, dealing with Sonic, and covering ledge options
5. Significantly better initial dash speed, to improve non Wizkick D-throw followups, positioning with F-tilt, aerials, and perfect pivots
6. 1 more damage and small bkb increases to the throw portions of F-throw and B-throw when they're the only safe options to punish near the ledge
7. And last but not least, better standing grab range

Take that as you will, I am personally of the opinion the game needed more nerfs than buffs to prevent the meta from becoming outrageous.

 

[Top Boss]

Lucas has (arguably) the best set of throws in the game, but just got some big grab buffs. Meanwhile, Ganondorf grabs you with his elbow and earns one down throw followup at best. this is sad but hilarious at the same time.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even with all of these changes though, Ganondorf still pretty much needs the aid of Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists for his normally bad recovery.

 

[SaltyKracka]

From a design perspective, though, heavy characters are supposed to struggle with rushdown.

First, heavy characters such as grapplers are supposed to beat rushdown.

Second, in a game where the vast majority of the cast has projectiles, disjoints, and mobility over him, why the hell should Ganondorf be losing to the people who actually choose to get close to him?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

First, heavy characters such as grapplers are supposed to beat rushdown.

Second, in a game where the vast majority of the cast has projectiles, disjoints, and mobility over him, why the hell should Ganondorf be losing to the people who actually choose to get close to him?

We can use Street Fighter expressions, but that doesn't mean we're talking about Street Fighter. Heavy characters in Smash, historically, have never performed well against faster characters. At the end of the day, good frame data and safe pressure define the meta.

The only real counter-example is Jiggs, who does all right in Melee solely because she can instantly erase someone's stock. And even then, only 1 person is really making that character work. Getting close to Ganon safely and getting back out again is one thing--that's what characters are supposed to do. The problem is that getting close to Ganon unsafely isn't nearly as threatening as it needs to be.

 

[Slack is Love]

We can use Street Fighter expressions, but that doesn't mean we're talking about Street Fighter. Heavy characters in Smash, historically, have never performed well against faster characters. At the end of the day, good frame data and safe pressure define the meta.

The only real counter-example is Jiggs, who does all right in Melee solely because she can instantly erase someone's stock. And even then, only 1 person is really making that character work. Getting close to Ganon safely and getting back out again is one thing--that's what characters are supposed to do. The problem is that getting close to Ganon unsafely isn't nearly as threatening as it needs to be.

Historically, heavy characters in Smash without projectiles have just been booty buttcheeks period, so something's wrong with the designer's choices to begin with. It's not useful to think of this as "Well heavy characters traditionally suffer against rushdown in smash, so that's how it should be in the future".

It's more useful to look at it the same way as SaltyKracka. Ganondorf struggles against characters keeping him away with projectiles. He also struggles against high mobility characters getting all up in his face since he doesn't have strong options to deal with them once they're there. He also struggles against characters with disjointed hitboxes at midrange. When you struggle at every range, you have a character that has not been designed as well as he should have been.

Generally in other fighting games, the heavy grappler character has the disadvantage of having difficulty getting close to the opponent, but with the payoff of when they do, the opponent has a very difficult time getting away and they risk taking a lot of damage when they try. This means they need to have fast, powerful options at close ranges, so they generally should do well against rushdown characters. Rushdown characters have good mobility and can get in easily, which is their advantage, but they should always be worried about some kind of big punishment if they decide to get up close and personal against a grappler.

The Street Fighter comparison is Zangief/Yun/Dhalsim as Grappler/Rushdown/Keep Away style of plays respectively. Yun can beat Dhalsim because Yun can approach easily with divekicks even through Dhalsim's fireballs and long stretchy limbs. Dhalsim also has a tough time getting away from Yun's rushdown.

However Yun doesn't do as well against Zangief because even though Yun can get in easily and does well at close range, Zangief is better. At close range, Zangief has his very, very fast (this is key) and very powerful Spinning Pile Driver grab and easy to use anti air lariat if you try to avoid the grab. Low health Yun now has to think really hard and carefully about when he should get close to Zangief or risk ending up as a stain on the ground.

So unfortunately, the situation we have here is Ganondorf who struggles against characters keeping him away, and faster characters get up in his face just laugh as they dodge his sluggish attempts to punish them for getting close, and instead punish him.

He needs a fast option up close, I feel that even a fast jab is the least they can do because it's just a jab, it's not even going to KO anybody, just get them off. Or make his grab not a garbage piece of crap with no range and poor follow up options compared to other characters. Or bring back thunderstorming, something that only more skilled players will even know about, and only benefits him once he's already done the work to get close.

Considering how god awful Ganon was in Brawl and how he continues to under-perform in Smash4, they could have taken the chance to make Ganon accidentally too powerful for a while to see what works and then dial him back slightly, instead of just making him poor every time.

 

[Dar4]

Historically, heavy characters in Smash without projectiles have just been booty buttcheeks period, so something's wrong with the designer's choices to begin with. It's not useful to think of this as "Well heavy characters traditionally suffer against rushdown in smash, so that's how it should be in the future".

It's more useful to look at it the same way as SaltyKracka. Ganondorf struggles against characters keeping him away with projectiles. He also struggles against high mobility characters getting all up in his face since he doesn't have strong options to deal with them once they're there. He also struggles against characters with disjointed hitboxes at midrange. When you struggle at every range, you have a character that has not been designed as well as he should have been.

Generally in other fighting games, the heavy grappler character has the disadvantage of having difficulty getting close to the opponent, but with the payoff of when they do, the opponent has a very difficult time getting away and they risk taking a lot of damage when they try. This means they need to have fast, powerful options at close ranges, so they generally should do well against rushdown characters. Rushdown characters have good mobility and can get in easily, which is their advantage, but they should always be worried about some kind of big punishment if they decide to get up close and personal against a grappler.

The Street Fighter comparison is Zangief/Yun/Dhalsim as Grappler/Rushdown/Keep Away style of plays respectively. Yun can beat Dhalsim because Yun can approach easily with divekicks even through Dhalsim's fireballs and long stretchy limbs. Dhalsim also has a tough time getting away from Yun's rushdown.

However Yun doesn't do as well against Zangief because even though Yun can get in easily and does well at close range, Zangief is better. At close range, Zangief has his very, very fast (this is key) and very powerful Spinning Pile Driver grab and easy to use anti air lariat if you try to avoid the grab. Low health Yun now has to think really hard and carefully about when he should get close to Zangief or risk ending up as a stain on the ground.

So unfortunately, the situation we have here is Ganondorf who struggles against characters keeping him away, and faster characters get up in his face just laugh as they dodge his sluggish attempts to punish them for getting close, and instead punish him.

He needs a fast option up close, I feel that even a fast jab is the least they can do because it's just a jab, it's not even going to KO anybody, just get them off. Or make his grab not a garbage piece of crap with no range and poor follow up options compared to other characters. Or bring back thunderstorming, something that only more skilled players will even know about, and only benefits him once he's already done the work to get close.

Considering how god awful Ganon was in Brawl and how he continues to under-perform in Smash4, they could have taken the chance to make Ganon accidentally too powerful for a while to see what works and then dial him back slightly, instead of just making him poor every time.

But you have to consider that unlike other fighting games, Smash is not solely balanced around 1v1. To make the entire cast balanced around 1v1 is not the design goal for Sakurai. Characters like ganon and dedede aren't very good at 1v1 but they're high if not top tier in free for alls. And they are significantly up the tier list when it comes to 2v2. I think Sakurai has obviously taken steps to help heavies in 1v1 but I don't think putting them on the same 1v1 tier as fast rush down types is what the design team is trying to do.

 

[Slack is Love]

But you have to consider that unlike other fighting games, Smash is not solely balanced around 1v1. To make the entire cast balanced around 1v1 is not the design goal for Sakurai. Characters like ganon and dedede aren't very good at 1v1 but they're high if not top tier in free for alls. And they are significantly up the tier list when it comes to 2v2. I think Sakurai has obviously taken steps to help heavies in 1v1 but I don't think putting them on the same 1v1 tier as fast rush down types is what the design team is trying to do.

If they're very good in free for alls, it's because of their high powered slow moves that now hit because the enemy might be distracted by another character, however, he'll still have the basic weaknesses of a grappler in that it is easier to keep him away. Something like a fast jab, better grab, or thunderstomping is still not going to break the game in free for alls, while it will make a more significant difference in 1x1 battles.

 

[SFC Goat]

Wait, Ganon is used outside of FG styling videos?

Well kiss my grits.

 

[the king of murder]

I really hate this "breaks casuals" excuse as if it would really matter. Bowser also breaks low level play in half, yet he got a stupid buff with his u-throw. In fact he has insane grab range and already a kill throw. Casuals itself has no metagame, it is either unpredictably chaotic(with items on) or so predictable that anyone and everything can win. As long as you don't overdo it like Ganon having like a 30% Ftilt, changes like autocancel dair or untechable choke are not affecting casual play because they do not care about the little or advanced stuff.

Buffing stuff that only interests advanced players(for example faster jab, a ****ing kill throw for crying out loud) is not going to affect casual play or free for alls.

Ganon is probably one of the few characters who struggles really hard against all playstyles(doesn't have the rushdown mobility to threaten zoners, can't beat rushdown charas because he has basically no close range game and his disjoints are not big enough to challenge other swordusers) which proves that his design is incomplete.

Really, is giving him a kill throw too much? I fought against a Cloud today with Ganon. Guy lived until the 160s. He just held shield and I had to grab him a lot. Killed him when I caught him offguard but that was so painful to see him live so long.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I really hate this "breaks casuals" excuse as if it would really matter. Little Mac, Bowser(especially now with his grab) and Falcon break low level play in half with their current kit. Casuals itself has no metagame, it is either unpredictablly chaotic(with items on) or so predictable that anyone and everything can win. As long as you don't overdo it like Ganon having like a 30% Ftilt, changes like autocancel dair or untechable choke are not affecting casual play because they do not care about the little or advanced stuff.

Buffing stuff that only interests advanced players(for example faster jab, a ****ing kill throw for crying out loud) is not going to affect casual play or free for alls.

Ganon is probably one of the few characters who struggles really hard against all playstyles(doesn't have the rushdown mobility to threaten zoners, can't beat rushdown charas because he has basically no close range game and his disjoints are not big enough to challenge other swordusers) which proves that his design is incomplete.

Really, is giving him a kill throw too much? I fought against a Cloud today with Ganon. Guy lived until the 160s. He just held shield and I had to grab him a lot. Killed him when I caught him offguard but that was so painful to see him live so long.

Dark Dive now kills near the ledge at around 140. Not a great kill throw option, but it's something.

 

[the king of murder]

Really? I couldn't kill Mario at 140% near FD with it. Then again I play on the 3DS, so maybe it's the blastzones fault.

DD buff is great though. Can't get punished for actually hitting the move....but it doesn't lessen his problems with shield and rushdown.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Really? I couldn't kill Mario at 140% near FD with it. Then again I play on the 3DS, so maybe it's the blastzones fault.

DD buff is great though. Can't get punished for actually hitting the move....but it doesn't lessen his problems with shield and rushdown.

It does a little. DD OOS is 14 frames(faster than Shield Drop -> Jab) and can be reversed to punish crossups. Maybe not a particularly great option, but making this option actually worth going for does help. Still not enough, but DD buff does actually start to address Ganon's fundamental issues in a way his other buffs haven't. Baby steps.

 

[Theosmeo]

In free for alls or teams where Ganon's all alone he really gets destroyed though. Ganon likes to take his time with his prey but anyone else can just waltz in, tap him on the shoulder, leave, and suddenly the person ganon was tearing to shreds turns the combo around immediately. The best thing to do is throw random Uairs and Usmashes in FFAs and you might come in first, but honestly ganon is pretty crap in casual play, especially if items are on (shudder).

In fact the new armor on reverse punch is almost solely for casual play. Most beginners don't think to grab much and will just attach the spinning dorf, anyone with sense will grab him quick or wait till he's done. I think he just needs more safe close range and anti shield options.

 

[Bobert]

I'd argue that Bowser and Ike are better in casual play honestly. Bowser is actually stronger, faster, and heavier than Ganondorf. He also technically has a projectile, a better recovery and a suicide grab move that works on stage. Ike is slightly weaker but is just faster in general and has way better recovery options. DK probably is too. It's just the same thing as Bowser except no suicide kill move. But hey, look at which characters got all those buffs or at least a really good one. Ganondorf is either the next one in line to get a really good buff or Sakurai wants to keep him as a low tier for the rest of Smash History for whatever reason while teasing us with tiny buffs here and there.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main thing to keep in mind, however, is that Ganondorf hits like a truck, so even if he does poorly against faster fighters, they still have to tread cautiously, since those heavy blows that Ganondorf can make can potentially add up. Even Rosalina has to be weary of that raw power, since Ganondorf is able to KO her before her current damage even hits 100%.

Dark Dive now kills near the ledge at around 140. Not a great kill throw option, but it's something.

In the end though, Dark Fists is pretty much the better option for its super armor and better KO potential. Too bad that not every competitive location permits custom special usage.

 

[randomguy1235]

It could be worse. At least we're not Puff, Zelda, or Dedede. We are actually getting some nice buffs overall, but it takes character knowledge and practice to really take advantage of them. Can't just Nairplane everything anymore. Maybe we haven't won the lottery with our buffs, but we've gotten some nice improvements to go along with inexplicable NAir reworkings, and there are worse characters who've gotten less.

 

[Slack is Love]

I'm gonna need to take a break from the game, I'm getting way too salty. It really gets me how ZSS is pretty much better at what Ganon is supposed to do than Ganon himself.

ZSS is actually threatening up close.

1. Has a fast jab
2. The tether grab beats Ganon's side b head to head and reaches farther faster
3. Once the grab has been landed, can up throw -> up-air -> up b to kill at absurdly low percentages
4. Has a projectile and disjointed horizontal move because why not
5. Much better movement speed and recovery

At the minimum, Ganon needs better grab range, it's unacceptable that he has such short range when he doesn't even get a kill throw or good setup.

And I'm now thinking that the new nair is a straight up nerf at this point. I suppose it does more damage because both hits land more consistently now, but one of the most important purposes of the old nair I feel was as one of Ganondorf's few "get off me" moves. Like if you were getting up-tilted a ton by Mario or whatever, you could sneak in a Nair in there and the decent knockback would get them off your butt. Now it's not an option close to the ground because generally only the first hit comes out in that scenario, it doesn't send the opponent far enough, and they just go in and punish you instead.

I definitely need a break. Here's hoping the final update isn't crap.

 

[Endurrr]

Could be worse, could be without any buffs at all




-King Dedede mains sob in the distance-

 

[Soul Train]

Could be worse, could be without any buffs at all

-King Dedede mains sob in the distance-

King Dedede mains sob plot in the distance