My opinion on Ganon's lack of Buffs

[Shmeckie]

Even with all of these changes though, Ganondorf still pretty much needs the aid of Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists for his normally bad recovery.

Yeah, but the general tradeoff of his overall design is he has poor recovery to balance the fact that his killing power can negate the option for his opponent to have a chance to recover. And really, only his horizontal recovery is bad. Vertically he's kind of nuts. Dude can go deep and still make it back. Also I get the feeling the devs think his aerials protect him from edgeguard attempts enough to leave his recovery alone.

Honestly, there's only one buff I want. One buff I think he should have. Not even an extended grab range, either, because I get the logistics behind that. he has two command grabs by default that have some pretty good range themselves. So they figure he gets shorter range on his normal grab to compensate. Still, I wouldn't mind at all if they buffed that.

A faster jab would be nice, but currently his jab seems to be used for spacing. It has better range than his f-tilt and does more damage at the hand. Maybe it's just me, but I've never found myself in a situation going "aw, man, if only that jab came out faster".

No, what I want more than anything is universal Flame Choke follow-ups. This character-specific nonsense just feels unprofessional. At the very least make d-tilt work on every character.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'm kinda disappointed Wizard's Assault doesn't flat out break shields from the aerial version off the initial hit and the ground hit considering the huge delay and the long cooldown period.

Also. Reflect on Jab. Give it to me.

I really think Flame Choke shouldn't be techable. As a Bowser I had a hard time teching it, everyone else can tech it just fine.

And Sheik has the longest roll distance for some reason.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I'm kinda disappointed Wizard's Assault doesn't flat out break shields from the aerial version off the initial hit and the ground hit considering the huge delay and the long cooldown period.

Also. Reflect on Jab. Give it to me.

I really think Flame Choke shouldn't be techable. As a Bowser I had a hard time teching it, everyone else can tech it just fine.

And Sheik has the longest roll distance for some reason.

I 100% agree with everything but not so sure about flame choke being un.techable...
Also Wiz kick needs a huge Knockback buff also upB needs abit more knockback aswell.

 

[GooberGaming]

I 100% agree with everything but not so sure about flame choke being un.techable...
Also Wiz kick needs a huge Knockback buff also upB needs abit more knockback aswell.

I think making flame choke untechable is not the right buff to give to Ganondorf. In my opinion making it techable adds some flavour to his gameplay since you rely on reads for follow ups\tech chases. Which I find enjoyable and rewarding by preforming a successful follow up.

I would much rather see Wizard kick receive a knockback buff, it's almost not worth using the move at this point since you can get punished even after hitting your opponent with it.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I think making flame choke untechable is not the right buff to give to Ganondorf. In my opinion making it techable adds some flavour to his gameplay since you rely on reads for follow ups\tech chases. Which I find enjoyable and rewarding by preforming a successful follow up.

I would much rather see Wizard kick receive a knockback buff, it's almost not worth using the move at this point since you can get punished even after hitting your opponent with it.

100% this thank you so much.
I also hope DDD gets buffs aswell he needs alot more than Ganon imo.

 

[Dagmark52]

Here is a change list that I think would properly buff Ganondorf. I took inspiration from his Melee/Brawl/Project M incarnations. Ganondorf now has a significantly faster jab that can also reflect projectiles with the sweetspot. His dash attack now has light armor to bash through light projectiles and jabs. Pivot F-Smash has much more reach to properly catch rolls and the bonus shield damage can punish those who shield it.
His standing grab has more reach (akin to King Dedede's now) but his pivot grab is even larger than that; similar to his F-Smash in that regard. F-Throw is now a kill throw that rivals' Ness in power (a lot like Charizard). D-Throw is much more similar to his melee down throw and allows for better followups.
His Dair now autocancels in a short hop and his Fair in a full hop. His Nair resumes its place as a good spacer and kill move. His Bair can hit grounded opponents much easier making matchups against Pikachu and the like much more bearable.
His Side-B now does slightly more damage. His Up-B is much less abusable and a decent OoS option now. Down-B is now more worthwhile to land and can kill earlier.


Ganondorf ---

• Attributes
  • Air speed: 0.79 → 0.85
• Jab
  • Hitboxes active: 8-9 → 6-8
  • IASA Frames: 35 → 30
  • Sweetspot reflects projectiles
• U-Tilt
  • Hitbox active 81-84 → 80-87 (Better coverage of the 2-frame ledge grab window)
  • IASA Frames: 115 → 101
• Dash Attack
  • Light Armor (KB-based) on frames 4-12
  • Startup invincibility frames: 1-2 → 1-3
  • Startup invincibility frames now intangible
• F-Smash
  • Pivot F-Smash reverted to Brawl reach
  • Bonus shield damage: 0 → 12
• Standing Grab
  • Increased reach
• Pivot Grab
  • Vastly increased reach
• Pummel
  • Damage: 3% → 4.5%
• F-Throw
  • Hit 2 (Throw) Damage 8% → 10%
  • Knockback Growth 100 → 125 (KO @ 120%)(now on par with Ness' back throw)
• Down-Throw
  • Base knockback 50 → 40
  • Angle 65° → 75°
  • Interrupts marginally sooner allowing for better followups (Namely nair/uair)
• Nair
  • Revert to pre-1.1.3 damage + frame data
  • Landing lag reduced from 17 → 11
• Fair
  • Landing Lag reduced: 22 → 21
  • Autocancel window: 55> → 32> (Can be easily autocancelled in a full hop)
• Bair
  • Lower hitboxes can hit grounded opponents more easily
  • Hitboxes active: 10-12 → 10-14
• Uair
  • Landing Lag reduced: 20 → 19
  • IASA frame: 34 → 30
  • Autocancel window: 25> → 21>
• Dair
  • Autocancel window: 32> → 28> (Can now be autocancelled in a short hop like Brawl)
  • Hitboxes active: 16-18 → 15-19
• Side Special 1 (Flame Choke)
  • Damage (Ground Attack): 12% → 14%
  • Damage (Aerial Attack): 15% → 17%

• Up Special 1 (Dark Dive)
  • Throw damage: 9% → 12%, KBG: 90 → 105 (KO @ ~110%)
  • Can be acted out of quicker/IASA: 60 → 38
  • Attack Hitbox (Darkness) BKB: 70 → 90, KBG: 80 → 90
  • Angle 361° → 10° (now much more dangerous to be hit by offstage)

• Down Special 1 (Wizard's Kick)

• Grounded Hitbox Damage: 12%/12%/10% → 15%/15%/12%
• Grounded Hitbox BKB: 60 → ~80, KBG: 70 → ~85 (KO @ ~130%)

 

[MagiusNecros]

Meh. Just make utilt shield cancel a thing. Or press button to end the move early at decreased power.

Also reflect on jab.

I kinda want more shield damage on ground wizkick.

Hits like a truck in the air but is weak sauce on the ground.

 

[Theosmeo]

I'd like Utilt to hit on the way up, and if it hits it can cancel into a jump. It'd be like a normal Utilt but if you miss you're in deep ****

 

[Gold_TSG]

It'd be pretty sweet if Dorf had more shield damage on all his attacks.

 

[randomguy1235]

It'd be pretty sweet if Dorf had more shield damage on all his attacks.

With the shield stun changes, most of Ganon's attacks became safe on shield

 

[Gold_TSG]

I am aware, but I feel like he should be doing a smidge more damage to them.

 

[MagiusNecros]

With the shield stun changes, most of Ganon's attacks became safe on shield

My opinions are frowned upon but I feel with Ganon with how hard he has to play to just get in and to land a hit that blocking any of his attacks should have severe repercussions to the opponent's shield. So greater shield damage ratio on select attacks would be nice.

Primarily Wizkick IMO.

Warlock Punch should also break shields or be at least on par with DK'd Stubborn Headbutt.

Which in comparison to shields just damn barely breaks them.

I just want to see a fully functional kit.

You see a lot of characters get full use of their kit while others just...don't.

 

[randomguy1235]

My opinions are frowned upon but I feel with Ganon with how hard he has to play to just get in and to land a hit that blocking any of his attacks should have severe repercussions to the opponent's shield. So greater shield damage ratio on select attacks would be nice.

Primarily Wizkick IMO.

Warlock Punch should also break shields or be at least on par with DK'd Stubborn Headbutt.

Which in comparison to shields just damn barely breaks them.

I just want to see a fully functional kit.

You see a lot of characters get full use of their kit while others just...don't.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean...

 

[JAZZ_]

No one understands the patch rage better than us Samus players do. I feel personally Ganon could use some more tweaks, but Ive generally had fun playing with him as a second to my Samus. Once the patches are a thing of the past we probably will have to live with what we get. Limitations often create the most ingenious solutions, and I feel once all low tiers are set in stone we'll quit waiting for patches to make us viable in tournaments and push the meta to the point where we are viable. Maining a low tier may give me a big chip on my shoulder but you can't ever beat that feeling when you best someone who uses an easy-bake character like Zamus.
I'll keep hoping all low tiers get the buffs they deserve. In the meantime, hang in there you guys.

 

[randomguy1235]

No one understands the patch rage better than us Samus players do. I feel personally Ganon could use some more tweaks, but Ive generally had fun playing with him as a second to my Samus. Once the patches are a thing of the past we probably will have to live with what we get. Limitations often create the most ingenious solutions, and I feel once all low tiers are set in stone we'll quit waiting for patches to make us viable in tournaments and push the meta to the point where we are viable. Maining a low tier may give me a big chip on my shoulder but you can't ever beat that feeling when you best someone who uses an easy-bake character like Zamus.
I'll keep hoping all low tiers get the buffs they deserve. In the meantime, hang in there you guys.

Sorry, but that (mis)fortune definitely goes to Jiggs and Dedede players

 

[JAZZ_]

Sorry, but that (mis)fortune definitely goes to Jiggs and Dedede players

That comment was in reference to Ganons patches not really changing his viability like "cough cough" "ike" "cough" other characters. Both Ganon and Samus get patches that do very little to help the character. True jiggs and DDD get no love, but i think Samus mains can understand being frustrated with patches, that your character gets attention, but it doesnt really change the major issues your character has.

 

[Gold_TSG]

It just sucks that Sakurai seems afraid to work on core issues of characters, opting instead to tweak other things that never really solve the major issues. I'm honestly shocked that Samus has gotten so little since release, with the headstrong excuse of her being so strong in FFAs, which, in all honesty, doesn't really matter.

 

[JAZZ_]

It just sucks that Sakurai seems afraid to work on core issues of characters, opting instead to tweak other things that never really solve the major issues. I'm honestly shocked that Samus has gotten so little since release, with the headstrong excuse of her being so strong in FFAs, which, in all honesty, doesn't really matter.

She isnt as strong in FFA's as people think either. She'll lose a timed battle everytime because in FFA your all up in everyones business and Samus cant deal with close combat at all. It becomes of hide in the corner and shoot. Which is a stupid way to play such a combo heavy character. Ganon is way more fun to play in FFA's.
I think the issue lies with Sakurai not wanting smash to be as competitive as it is, opting to unballance the cast competitively in hopes to break the games competitive aspect. I mean what if competive smash only saw shiek played at tourneys. People would lose interest fast, and im not saying hed break it to that extreme but it would explain how little attention bottom of the barrel characters get.
And with him comparing himself to George Lucas recently its obvious hes not too fond of all of us asking for tweaks to his work. George's work went from the original trilogy to the prequels of starwars because of one factor. The old starwars had people telling george to tweak things, the prequels he had no one to tell him no. Is Sakurai heading down the path where he no longer listens to constructive criticism? Will we see "Melee 'the special edition'" and figurative "Jar Jar's" in Smashes future? I hope not, but that interview sounded like he has thought about it, about not trying to please anyone and make a game he wants to see, reguardless of fan backlash. Lets hope we dont get Sakurai's version of 1997 George Lucas. (God, seriously, when he brought up ol Georgey in that interview I could feel it, a pure sense of dread, the dark side clouding everything)

 

[Theosmeo]

The worst thing about it all is that Ganon isn't even very fun in FFAs, scored a gerudo? Get punished. Doing a slow methodical Dair combo onstage? Get punished. Link slow Dtilts into laggy followups? Get punished.

Ganon FFA meta is roll around and Usmash which is why I mostly play Falcon or Peach when a bunch of my casualish friends come over..

 

[JAZZ_]

The worst thing about it all is that Ganon isn't even very fun in FFAs, scored a gerudo? Get punished. Doing a slow methodical Dair combo onstage? Get punished. Link slow Dtilts into laggy followups? Get punished.

Ganon FFA meta is roll around and Usmash which is why I mostly play Falcon or Peach when a bunch of my casualish friends come over..

I just played ganon in FFA with my skilled smash friends and I utalized Uair, Nair, and pivot Ftilt, as well as Jab. I won several matches against a great Marth, Link and Mewtwo.
I think if you play to your faster moves youll still kill, just off of set ups from the chaos.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Warlock Punch is boss in FFA too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just spam WP. You'll probably get a few kills that way.

But really WP is so telegraphed that it should just break shields. I mean you dodge or even grab us out of it.

And being able to shield it and take it like a champ just means the move is relegated to noob killer duty.

I do feel like Samus and Zelda both share the bottom tier trash effect while their alternate character option are both top tier is essentially why they have little viability.

Freefall after Aerial Din's Fire just proves they don't care.

 

[Top Boss]

It'd be cool if ganondorf's up tilt was 64 Falcon's up smash.

 

[JAZZ_]

Just spam WP. You'll probably get a few kills that way.

But really WP is so telegraphed that it should just break shields. I mean you dodge or even grab us out of it.

And being able to shield it and take it like a champ just means the move is relegated to noob killer duty.

I do feel like Samus and Zelda both share the bottom tier trash effect while their alternate character option are both top tier is essentially why they have little viability.

Freefall after Aerial Din's Fire just proves they don't care.

If thats the reason behind Zelda and Samus being as bad as they are then why even bother making seperate characters for shiek and zamus?
As for FFA dont underestimate the versatility of FF Uair.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If thats the reason behind Zelda and Samus being as bad as they are then why even bother making seperate characters for shiek and zamus?
As for FFA dont underestimate the versatility of FF Uair.

Roster Padding and to rep the big names. In the long run when it matters Sheik and ZSS will always outperform Zelda and Samus.

Which honestly is kinda sad to me since they could be absolutely wonderful.

We have to remember in the previous game that ZSS and Sheik were once a part of Zelda and Samus's kit. They were separated and are now their own thing.

 

[JAZZ_]

Roster Padding and to rep the big names. In the long run when it matters Sheik and ZSS will always outperform Zelda and Samus.

Which honestly is kinda sad to me since they could be absolutely wonderful.

We have to remember in the previous game that ZSS and Sheik were once a part of Zelda and Samus's kit. They were separated and are now their own thing.

Just because in a previous game they were once the same character that doesnt excuse the poor design choices in an entirely separete game. Thats like taking the filling out of the pie, and selling you both pieces seperate, the filling and the crust, but instead of working with the crust so that it tastes good on its own, you leave it as is and burn it a bit. then when someone points out that its inedible you tell them well it used to have filling in it so its ok. The filling on the otherhand gets more treatment so that it not only can stand on its own, but its the most delicous desert ever.

I dont mind that Zamus and Shiek are like that delicous desert, but you gotta do something to the bits you severed off to make them delicious in their own way, dont burn them.

... now i want pie.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just because in a previous game they were once the same character that doesnt excuse the poor design choices in an entirely separete game. Thats like taking the filling out of the pie, and selling you both pieces seperate, the filling and the crust, but instead of working with the crust so that it tastes good on its own, you leave it as is and burn it a bit. then when someone points out that its inedible you tell them well it used to have filling in it so its ok. The filling on the otherhand gets more treatment so that it not only can stand on its own, but its the most delicous desert ever.

I dont mind that Zamus and Shiek are like that delicous desert, but you gotta do something to the bits you severed off to make them delicious in their own way, dont burn them.

... now i want pie.

Tell Sakurai. Not me.

 

[Theosmeo]

Sakurai, bestower of Saku-Pie

 

[Darkshadovv]

Here is a change list that I think would properly buff Ganondorf. I took inspiration from his Melee/Brawl/Project M incarnations. Ganondorf now has a significantly faster jab that can also reflect projectiles with the sweetspot. His dash attack now has light armor to bash through light projectiles and jabs. Pivot F-Smash has much more reach to properly catch rolls and the bonus shield damage can punish those who shield it.
His standing grab has more reach (akin to King Dedede's now) but his pivot grab is even larger than that; similar to his F-Smash in that regard. F-Throw is now a kill throw that rivals' Ness in power (a lot like Charizard). D-Throw is much more similar to his melee down throw and allows for better followups.
His Dair now autocancels in a short hop and his Fair in a full hop. His Nair resumes its place as a good spacer and kill move. His Bair can hit grounded opponents much easier making matchups against Pikachu and the like much more bearable.
His Side-B now does slightly more damage. His Up-B is much less abusable and a decent OoS option now. Down-B is now more worthwhile to land and can kill earlier.


Ganondorf ---

• Attributes
  • Air speed: 0.79 → 0.85
• Jab
  • Hitboxes active: 8-9 → 6-8
  • IASA Frames: 35 → 30
  • Sweetspot reflects projectiles
• U-Tilt
  • Hitbox active 81-84 → 80-87 (Better coverage of the 2-frame ledge grab window)
  • IASA Frames: 115 → 101
• Dash Attack
  • Light Armor (KB-based) on frames 4-12
  • Startup invincibility frames: 1-2 → 1-3
  • Startup invincibility frames now intangible
• F-Smash
  • Pivot F-Smash reverted to Brawl reach
  • Bonus shield damage: 0 → 12
• Standing Grab
  • Increased reach
• Pivot Grab
  • Vastly increased reach
• Pummel
  • Damage: 3% → 4.5%
• F-Throw
  • Hit 2 (Throw) Damage 8% → 10%
  • Knockback Growth 100 → 125 (KO @ 120%)(now on par with Ness' back throw)
• Down-Throw
  • Base knockback 50 → 40
  • Angle 65° → 75°
  • Interrupts marginally sooner allowing for better followups (Namely nair/uair)
• Nair
  • Revert to pre-1.1.3 damage + frame data
  • Landing lag reduced from 17 → 11
• Fair
  • Landing Lag reduced: 22 → 21
  • Autocancel window: 55> → 32> (Can be easily autocancelled in a full hop)
• Bair
  • Lower hitboxes can hit grounded opponents more easily
  • Hitboxes active: 10-12 → 10-14
• Uair
  • Landing Lag reduced: 20 → 19
  • IASA frame: 34 → 30
  • Autocancel window: 25> → 21>
• Dair
  • Autocancel window: 32> → 28> (Can now be autocancelled in a short hop like Brawl)
  • Hitboxes active: 16-18 → 15-19
• Side Special 1 (Flame Choke)
  • Damage (Ground Attack): 12% → 14%
  • Damage (Aerial Attack): 15% → 17%

• Up Special 1 (Dark Dive)
  • Throw damage: 9% → 12%, KBG: 90 → 105 (KO @ ~110%)
  • Can be acted out of quicker/IASA: 60 → 38
  • Attack Hitbox (Darkness) BKB: 70 → 90, KBG: 80 → 90
  • Angle 361° → 10° (now much more dangerous to be hit by offstage)

• Down Special 1 (Wizard's Kick)

• Grounded Hitbox Damage: 12%/12%/10% → 15%/15%/12%
• Grounded Hitbox BKB: 60 → ~80, KBG: 70 → ~85 (KO @ ~130%)

I think it's an interestingly thought out list, would help Ganondorf a lot in many areas. However, I do want to question a few things:

• What about sourspots on things like jab? 4% for a heavyweight with a poor jab is absurd.
• Do you mean 15% on forward throw? That seems way too much since 13% is basically the highest damaging throw number in the game.
  
• Nair landing lag might be too low for his archetype. Captain Falcon's Nair is frame 12.
• More damage on Flame Choke might make it too godly. It already does a hefty amount of damage, and can bring characters like Little Mac from 0% to 50%.

I still feel that Ganondorf is hampered by tiny jumps, weak throws, needless sourspots, poor range, unsafe landing on air wizkick, etc. If all of these were remedied, plus Project M range on Flame Choke, he would be a lot more viable. Still, this is a good direction.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Grounded Wizkicks really...and when i say really...i mean REALLY !! needs a HUGE buff its so pathetic.

And then all the other stuff.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Grounded Wizkicks really...and when i say really...i mean REALLY !! needs a HUGE buff its so pathetic.

And then all the other stuff.

Lots of "weak" attack stop it. Does bad or just okay damage, bad knockback, shields "slow it down" and it is just one move that just feels super weak compared to everything else and just hurts him more then it helps.