My Competitive Pet Peeve: Last-Second No Contest (Surrender)

[Thinkaman]

No one's pride is hurt; we're just raising an eyebrow at someone acting childish.

And then when they try to defend their bad sportsmanship as just "saving time", we're just calling that out as obvious bullcrap.

 

[The Slayer]

You mean you? But I guess it's mostly a Melee thing then. Must be extremely slow to progress and blind justification to say the loser is salty for this time around.

 

[Thinkaman]

The point is that it isn't about saving time, it was never about saving time, and that it's insulting to everyone to pretend this was the case.

If it was, our conversation would have gone like this:

"Dude, I'm just doing it to save time."

"Actually, it's about two seconds slower."

"Oh, okay; guess I won't do it then."

"np"

 

[Teshie U]

For many of us it is left over from melee/brawl. Many of us were no contesting in friendlies when the game came out and wondering why it took so long this time around.

BTW, a top player in my region once turned off a wii after an embarressing loss to avoid the replay being saved.

Considering how hard the community is pushing for spectator value with 2 stock, prioritizing stream viewers over actual tournament goers etc. You would think we would take all steps to make sure people can't do that kind of thing either.

 

[The Slayer]

The only thing I would say and do is GG (potentially press the start button for the next player), shake your hand and unplug my controller. What I'm saying is it's not clear cut to say the person is angry or a terrible sore loser or making excuses. It's not always the case and it's usually minor and forgettable (or ironically unforgettable since it'll be recorded anyways).

For many of us it is left over from melee/brawl. Many of us were no contesting in friendlies when the game came out and wondering why it took so long this time around.

BTW, a top player in my region once turned off a wii after an embarressing loss to avoid the replay being saved.

Considering how hard the community is pushing for spectator value with 2 stock, prioritizing stream viewers over actual tournament goers etc. You would think we would take all steps to make sure people can't do that kind of thing either.

Now right there, I can really seeing that being bad sportsmanship and a huge sore loser that has salt deposits everywhere. Physically turning off the game alone would rub me the wrong way because it means you can't take a lost at all.

 

[Raijinken]

It's interesting that this is still going when we've established that it prevents replays and doesn't save any time.

You can interpret the act itself however you'd like (I call it salt because that's how my brother and I both used it in Melee, but that's not everyone's stance), but from an operational standpoint in any tournament sense, it's two negatives (and not the kind that can cancel into a positive). Unless it is an early surrender, i.e. something done before what is expected to be the killing blow, you're doing no one a favor. You're just wasting time and blaming habit (in Smash4, that is. Feel free to do this in Melee and Brawl, where it is an established time-saver, even if the victory screen and fanfare provides a nice interlude between rounds).

Pause should be off, but No Contest should be disallowed in the event that it is.


On the topic about rule enforcement, I feel like I've read before that the non-pausing player may choose to allow the pause without penalty (a sort of Gentleman's Clause for epic moments like the above posted Falcon Punch). Could be wrong. And personally, as someone who would rather have a good match AND win instead of winning by default, it'd kill half my hype as the player if my opponent forfeited (accidental or deliberate) by pausing and having that enforced without choice.

 

[The Slayer]

Until then, its just someone pet-peeve. I still don't really see it as a huge issue.

 

[AccountsDept]

Woaw why are people so butthurt over something so insignificant. You act like people who do this do it just to spite the winner. In reality I would guess that 95%+ of people do it just to move on to the next game and stay focused.

You're the one who sounds childish for caring so much over something so trivial. If the opponent shakes your hand at the end of the set there's nothing disrespectful going on.

Who cares if there's no victory screen? You both know who won and that's all that counts. In Starcraft people surrender, in Dota people surrender and even in League they do it. The only reason to not surrender is when you still have a chance of winning even if its small. When someone surrenders he's telling you that you beat him and he recognizes it yet you act like its the complete opposite. Just because in Smash its not technically a surrender it doesn't change that its treated the same way.

Grow up and learn to enjoy your victory without the need of a meaningless victory screen.

You still don't get it.

It is a statement that few would disagree with that - especially in streamed matches - unwarranted and, honestly, appearing-to-be-butthurt no contests kill the hype of a match.

No contests are probably the most unexciting, anticlimactic end to a match, no matter what the kill actually was (it could have been eight knee of justices in a row), largely because they give off this sorrowful feeling of bitterness. Every character is shown in their losing animations, most of which being a sarcastic clap.

And that's what last-second no-contests are. A sarcastic clap.

A way to negate the winners win in the most childish way. So much of the hype of smash comes from the little things, and the iconic "GAME!" and victory music after a match contribute to it's finality. No-contest ends are unrewarding and largely appear as disappointing and unnecessary (the crow actually moans with distaste during it, which should show the kind of action that even sakurai perceives it as being). Acceptance of defeat, signaled by a victory screen, shows a sign of respect towards the victor by letting them enjoy their victory as the game intends, and how the crowd and both the winners desire. It's an unspoken "you earned it", and shaking hands after that accentuates that message.

Not only do no-contests actually take longer in sm4sh, they are not a sign of some sort of "surrender". Even if, say, the victory screen still played for the player who didn't no-contest, the surrender would prove unnecessary. Mind you, the examples you and others have states (starcraft, dota) don't have such dignified endgame victory acknowledgements, and the surrender comes long before the game would actually mandate a certain player's win.

We're not talking about "3 stocks down, he's styled on me the entire match, there's no point" upon respawn no-contests, we're talking about "I'M AN INCH AWAY FROM THE BLAST ZONE AND MY DELICATE LITTLE HEART CAN'T TAKE THE SHAME OF A VICTORY SCREEN WAAH" no-contests.

It isn't a logistical problem. Like think said, if we want to be treated like a sport, we have to act like it. It's blasphemous to think that it would be common-practice to use the built-in ragequit/reset button during a match we lost, and then have the sheer nerve to shake the hand of the opponent who's victory they've just denied as the Smash crowd boos in disappointment of such a boring end to a match. It would be akin to if a sports-ball match shut off right in the middle of the insane final play because the disadvantageous team couldn't handle the viewers seeing the rest. The act itself logistically isn't really an issue, but the message it sends from the losing player is childish and shameful at best, and the fact that there are those who would insult those who think this practice is terrible and then fervently defend it almost make it worse.

 

[Ticker]

You still don't get it.

It is a statement that few would disagree with that - especially in streamed matches - unwarranted and, honestly, appearing-to-be-butthurt no contests kill the hype of a match.

No contests are probably the most unexciting, anticlimactic end to a match, no matter what the kill actually was (it could have been eight knee of justices in a row), largely because they give off this sorrowful feeling of bitterness. Every character is shown in their losing animations, most of which being a sarcastic clap.

And that's what last-second no-contests are. A sarcastic clap.

A way to negate the winners win in the most childish way. So much of the hype of smash comes from the little things, and the iconic "GAME!" and victory music after a match contribute to it's finality. No-contest ends are unrewarding and largely appear as disappointing and unnecessary (the crow actually moans with distaste during it, which should show the kind of action that even sakurai perceives it as being). Acceptance of defeat, signaled by a victory screen, shows a sign of respect towards the victor by letting them enjoy their victory as the game intends, and how the crowd and both the winners desire. It's an unspoken "you earned it", and shaking hands after that accentuates that message.

Not only do no-contests actually take longer in sm4sh, they are not a sign of some sort of "surrender". Even if, say, the victory screen still played for the player who didn't no-contest, the surrender would prove unnecessary. Mind you, the examples you and others have states (starcraft, dota) don't have such dignified endgame victory acknowledgements, and the surrender comes long before the game would actually mandate a certain player's win.

We're not talking about "3 stocks down, he's styled on me the entire match, there's no point" upon respawn no-contests, we're talking about "I'M AN INCH AWAY FROM THE BLAST ZONE AND MY DELICATE LITTLE HEART CAN'T TAKE THE SHAME OF A VICTORY SCREEN WAAH" no-contests.

It isn't a logistical problem. Like think said, if we want to be treated like a sport, we have to act like it. It's blasphemous to think that it would be common-practice to use the built-in ragequit/reset button during a match we lost, and then have the sheer nerve to shake the hand of the opponent who's victory they've just denied as the Smash crowd boos in disappointment of such a boring end to a match. It would be akin to if a sports-ball match shut off right in the middle of the insane final play because the disadvantageous team couldn't handle the viewers seeing the rest. The act itself logistically isn't really an issue, but the message it sends from the losing player is childish and shameful at best, and the fact that there are those who would insult those who think this practice is terrible and then fervently defend it almost make it worse.

You people are overanylzing the **** out of this. People who do this do not do it because "their poor little heart can't take it", they're just acknowledging that hey, nice play, gg. The victory screen is just a mash a screen, and most people don't care about. Hell, some people listen to music so they don't even get to hear the music. I will acknowledge that some people do it due to salt, but why should that bother you, you still beat them and you did it bad enough to make them pissed.

In addition no spectator that I know care about the damn end of game music or victory screen, they know who won the match when the combo begins or he lands that final blow. How is a ****ing win without the victory screen unrewarding? You put in the work to take finish him off, play better them, or get lucky. You know when you've won. Most people will get pumped over a hype final kill whether the dude quit before finishing or not. Nobody is waiting for that victory screen and music to pop off and get excited, they know right away. Since were making this sports analogy, look at a football match. Say the opposing team scores that touchdown with 10 seconds left and the other team is down by 10 now. Fans of the opposing team are excited, they know they just won, and fans of the other team are disappointing because they lost. After the other team receives the ball, they occasionally take a kneel, as they know no matter what they do, they don't have a chance of winning. People get excited over that final moment, that final play, that extra effort put in to do something spectacular, not for the end of the game to be officially announced.

 

[Raijinken]

It's unprofessional, and depending on subsequent displays of sportsmanship, immature in some cases. And again, saves no time in the game in question.

People wonder why esports are so frowned upon in the west. Immaturity and unprofessionalism are why.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That football analogy with taking a knee is off. Taking a knee in a hopeless situation in football is the equivalent of throwing yourself off-stage when losing badly in smash, an action you'll note none of us are objecting to. Seeing the game to a full and proper conclusion is actually a very deep seeded expectation in football; no matter how badly a team is losing, they're just expected to see through the end of the game. You'll see NFL teams, obviously pretty spirit broken, field players and run plays with 5 minutes left and down 40 points. Doing anything else would be considered anti-competitive, and the incredible thing is that in football playing out garbage time actually has risks (players can get injured) whereas playing a losing game of smash costs you nothing but pride.

A real sports analogy is pretty easy though. Let's say you're playing bastketball and you're down by 16 points with 45 seconds left on the clock. Now, this is obviously impossible in any kind of feasible way.; you've lost the game. So you decide, in your infinite wisdom, to just walk off the court since you don't want to play out this losing game. Of course, it's your turn to in-bound the ball, and sorting out all the confusion there takes everyone a minute. So to do the math there, you've actually taken 15 more seconds than losing conventionally would have taken if you didn't play to extend the clock and in the process you've disrespected the other team, the spectators, and the officials. You could argue what you're doing is victimless; no one will doubt the other team won the game after all. It's true I suppose. However, there's no way around the fact that you're behaving in an unsportsmanlike manner, and the next morning when you're watching ESPN don't be upset when you see other players talking about your poor sportsmanship... just like you might see a thread on smashboards about the topic for competitive smash?

I don't get particularly mad when I beat opponents badly and it makes them salty. In fact, it's kinda fun in the sense of "hey, I'm so awesome at this game that I made this grown man act like a child", but it makes me think pretty lowly of the other player and doesn't really make me want to play that doofus again in the future. Overall it works out okay when the saltiness is in the form of yelling and complaining since that gives everyone at the event (and possibly beyond!) something to play with, a storyline to tell, etc.. If the salt is something so dull and passive-aggressive as swiping the results screen, well, I can give you a boring dirty look and we're about done. You're making the experience at least slightly worse for everyone else, and you can't be surprised when met with disapproval for it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ampharos makes a great broader point. Poor sportsmanship is not about victimization. You can be disrespectful and unprofessional without directly making a victim.

 

[AccountsDept]

It's unprofessional, and depending on subsequent displays of sportsmanship, immature in some cases. And again, saves no time in the game in question.

People wonder why esports are so frowned upon in the west. Immaturity and unprofessionalism are why.

This.

I would like to see someone who is not into esports look upon the no-contest practice and say it's totally okay. E-Sports already has the sterotype as being viewed as a bunch of twelve year year olds screaming at CoD, the fact that this is even a remotely accepted thing only goes further to prove the point of immaturity among the general public.


Ampharos also makes a good point. I don't get super angry, but it does lessen my view of said player highly. When it is done in friendlies and the like, I don't mind much at all, but for the love of god, have the decency and professionalism to do it in tournaments (especially on-stream)

 

[RareMagmar]

I agree with OP completely. If you quit out mid match. Quit Smash. C'mon son, that **** childish. Only smash players do that corny crap..get it together. I'm new to this community but I see many of these players are not worth the pad they play with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll admit, I have a habit of pausing the game when I break a shield or something truly silly happens. It just feels good to revel in.

I -hate- it when people quit out in advance, though.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Me and my friends usually in friendlies, but only in Melee/PM. We never have in Smash 4 just because of how long it takes. Something I won't do in a tournament though.
I personally don't garner disrespect from it, but it's all subjective.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not to mention that if you're on a pro controller, you need a pretty weird grip to hit all the buttons at once.

You know, for all that matters.

 

[Nyhte]

I disagree because if you haven't acknowledged it yet, this is like anything else. One action or statement means different things by the context. Sometimes people aren't very adamant about it, sometimes they are, sometimes they're saying "I didn't lose" and sometimes they're not.

 

[Zage]

If you Star-KO someone on their last stock, I don't see what the problem is.

 

[CorruptoR]

You still don't get it.

It is a statement that few would disagree with that - especially in streamed matches - unwarranted and, honestly, appearing-to-be-butthurt no contests kill the hype of a match.

No contests are probably the most unexciting, anticlimactic end to a match, no matter what the kill actually was (it could have been eight knee of justices in a row), largely because they give off this sorrowful feeling of bitterness. Every character is shown in their losing animations, most of which being a sarcastic clap.

And that's what last-second no-contests are. A sarcastic clap.

A way to negate the winners win in the most childish way. So much of the hype of smash comes from the little things, and the iconic "GAME!" and victory music after a match contribute to it's finality. No-contest ends are unrewarding and largely appear as disappointing and unnecessary (the crow actually moans with distaste during it, which should show the kind of action that even sakurai perceives it as being). Acceptance of defeat, signaled by a victory screen, shows a sign of respect towards the victor by letting them enjoy their victory as the game intends, and how the crowd and both the winners desire. It's an unspoken "you earned it", and shaking hands after that accentuates that message.

Not only do no-contests actually take longer in sm4sh, they are not a sign of some sort of "surrender". Even if, say, the victory screen still played for the player who didn't no-contest, the surrender would prove unnecessary. Mind you, the examples you and others have states (starcraft, dota) don't have such dignified endgame victory acknowledgements, and the surrender comes long before the game would actually mandate a certain player's win.

We're not talking about "3 stocks down, he's styled on me the entire match, there's no point" upon respawn no-contests, we're talking about "I'M AN INCH AWAY FROM THE BLAST ZONE AND MY DELICATE LITTLE HEART CAN'T TAKE THE SHAME OF A VICTORY SCREEN WAAH" no-contests.

It isn't a logistical problem. Like think said, if we want to be treated like a sport, we have to act like it. It's blasphemous to think that it would be common-practice to use the built-in ragequit/reset button during a match we lost, and then have the sheer nerve to shake the hand of the opponent who's victory they've just denied as the Smash crowd boos in disappointment of such a boring end to a match. It would be akin to if a sports-ball match shut off right in the middle of the insane final play because the disadvantageous team couldn't handle the viewers seeing the rest. The act itself logistically isn't really an issue, but the message it sends from the losing player is childish and shameful at best, and the fact that there are those who would insult those who think this practice is terrible and then fervently defend it almost make it worse.

This is one of the most pathetic things I've read in a while. Seriously, no one cares. You over analyze this like its some grand huge significant thing. Dude, relax and just take the win. Victory screen means absolutely nothing. Its only you that make it mean something by being so emotionally attached to it. Spectators don't care and the players don't care. The only people that care are people like you who build this emotional and romantic attachment to symbols just as to create some sort of story line or significance that is not there.

"iconic "GAME!" and victory music"

Look at this, you make it sound like its some sacred traditional thing. Its not. You sound like a random high school English teacher that spends over 2 hours analyzing some 2 minute scene in a movie that ends up being completely useless and a waste of time.

EDIT: Also, as to the argument that it makes it look immature and non-esports like, that's complete bullsh*t. As long as you shake your opponent's hand then there's no disrespect. No one from the outside is going to look at smash and think "oh man I really think these guys are immature and should not be respected because they no-contest out of games"

What's immature is your emotional attachment to something that is insignificant, you know, the same way a child has.

EDIT 2: Oh man, I've been arguing with a 14 year old kid. Lol, no wonder. How can you even say these things when you weren't even born when Smash 64 came out.

 

[AccountsDept]

This is one of the most pathetic things I've read in a while. Seriously, no one cares. You over analyze this like its some grand huge significant thing. Dude, relax and just take the win. Victory screen means absolutely nothing. Its only you that make it mean something by being so emotionally attached to it. Spectators don't care and the players don't care. The only people that care are people like you who build this emotional and romantic attachment to symbols just as to create some sort of story line or significance that is not there.

"iconic "GAME!" and victory music"

Look at this, you make it sound like its some sacred traditional thing. Its not. You sound like a random high school English teacher that spends over 2 hours analyzing some 2 minute scene in a movie that ends up being completely useless and a waste of time.

"Wow, I'm really satisfied with the end of that game! There was no victory music, and the crowd moaned in disappointment!"

In every sport basically ever that requires active input on a level at least remotely similar to Smash, games are played through to the end. I'm sorry, whatever "overhype" or "over-analyzation" you think I'm putting on to this, if I objectively described Last-Minute no-contests to basically any non-smash player, it would sound scummy, and it would sound like a ragequit. It appears to be a ragequit. And that wouldn't be the case if time was actually being saved, but it isn't. At least if we're talking about Sm4sh, it is explicitly slower to no contest than to just end the game.

So that excuse is bull****. I think it honestly actually takes more time than a Star KO, as the slight freeze and stutter the game does during a no-contest lasts a bit longer than the "GAME!", as far as I'm, aware.

In melee, the time excuse almost maybe is valid in the case of a Star KO, and even though i still find the excuse a little bit silly considering that the time saved is so negligible, at least that's maybe in the realm of valid.

But in practically any other case it would have been equally as easy to let the game end. Why, honestly, do you take the extra effort to forcibly end the game? Whatever you may think, it's unnessesary nature reeks of salt for miles, and yeah, I might not always get angry, but i will think that player is a little bit of a tool.

 

[CorruptoR]

"Wow, I'm really satisfied with the end of that game! There was no victory music, and the crowd moaned in disappointment!"

In every sport basically ever that requires active input on a level at least remotely similar to Smash, games are played through to the end. I'm sorry, whatever "overhype" or "over-analyzation" you think I'm putting on to this, if I objectively described Last-Minute no-contests to basically any non-smash player, it would sound scummy, and it would sound like a ragequit. It appears to be a ragequit. And that wouldn't be the case if time was actually being saved, but it isn't. At least if we're talking about Sm4sh, it is explicitly slower to no contest than to just end the game.

So that excuse is bull****. I think it honestly actually takes more time than a Star KO, as the slight freeze and stutter the game does during a no-contest lasts a bit longer than the "GAME!", as far as I'm, aware.

In melee, the time excuse almost maybe is valid in the case of a Star KO, and even though i still find the excuse a little bit silly considering that the time saved is so negligible, at least that's maybe in the realm of valid.

But in practically any other case it would have been equally as easy to let the game end. Why, honestly, do you take the extra effort to forcibly end the game? Whatever you may think, it's unnessesary nature reeks of salt for miles, and yeah, I might not always get angry, but i will think that player is a little bit of a tool.

First of all Smash is not a traditional sport. Its an e-sport and in every game there is a way to quit out. Stop comparing it to real sports its not the same thing.

You also need to stop taking everything personally or assume people are always salty. This new generation of players only know to spam dumb memes and salt icons. Its not always about salt. Just because someone says damn, f*ck or expresses any kind of emotion after loosing it doesn't mean they are super salty and mad at everything that is life because they lost a game. Stop accusing everyone of being salty and stop using this overused term.

I'm not arguing whether or not quitting out saves time. I'm telling you that you care too much over some completely insignificant thing. That's your problem, you care over some bullsh*t that doesn't matter and get pissy about it and you even dislike people or lose respect for them when it doesn't matter.

Some people quit out because they are used to doing it, some because its a personal confirmation for them that they knew they could lose at any moment and when they got hit its to show they where aware of the possibility and accept their misplay. Maybe some people do it because they are salty? Who the flying f*ck cares? Let them be salty. Does it really degrade your enjoyment of the game? Its their right to quit out. They can do it if they want, its not like they are cheating, they're admitting ultimate defeat by leaving before the game even ended.

Once again though my point is you care so much for something so meaningless. It doesn't matter.

 

[AccountsDept]

First of all Smash is not a traditional sport. Its an e-sport and in every game there is a way to quit out. Stop comparing it to real sports its not the same thing.

You also need to stop taking everything personally or assume people are always salty. This new generation of players only know to spam dumb memes and salt icons. Its not always about salt. Just because someone says damn, f*ck or expresses any kind of emotion after loosing it doesn't mean they are super salty and mad at everything that is life because they lost a game. Stop accusing everyone of being salty and stop using this overused term.

I'm not arguing whether or not quitting out saves time. I'm telling you that you care too much over some completely insignificant thing. That's your problem, you care over some bullsh*t that doesn't matter and get pissy about it and you even dislike people or lose respect for them when it doesn't matter.

Some people quit out because they are used to doing it, some because its a personal confirmation for them that they knew they could lose at any moment and when they got hit its to show they where aware of the possibility and accept their misplay. Maybe some people do it because they are salty? Who the flying f*ck cares? Let them be salty. Does it really degrade your enjoyment of the game? Its their right to quit out. They can do it if they want, its not like they are cheating, they're admitting ultimate defeat by leaving before the game even ended.

Once again though my point is you care so much for something so meaningless. It doesn't matter.

I'm simply going to stop arguing because we could go and do the ****ing "If you don't care about it, why are you doing it?/If it doesn't matter, why do you do it" paradox for years on end.

I can't say anything more than I've already said and neither can you. No minds are going to change.

 

[CorruptoR]

"Wow, I'm really satisfied with the end of that game! There was no victory music, and the crowd moaned in disappointment!"
.

Also, ROFL at this statement. You're really pathetic. In all my time playing smash I've never seen someone be disappointed over not having a victory screen. Once again you're putting meaning into something that people just press start as fast as possible to get out of the way anyways.

 

[Raijinken]

And so the petty namecalling and personal attacks begin.

Games aren't athletic events in the standard sense, but they're still competitions, and a competition in which professionalism is optional is really just a kid's game. Surrendering early with a gg is professional, delaying the end result and blaming old habits is not professional. There's no point in trying to structure Smash or any other game as a serious and professionally-run event if you aren't going to require your participants to show at least some level of professional behavior.

Personally, I'd love for gaming to become acknowledged as a "real" job, living, sport, whatever. But it won't happen while the community is so thoroughly dedicated to making sure behaviors widely seen as childish and immature are the accepted "no big deal" norm.

Edit: And especially on stream, it's super easy to see when someone is only giving the handshake as a courtesy in order to try not to look like a complete jerkwad. Facial expressions of exasperation, frustration, and anger can easily counter any shallow expression of sportsmanship.

 

[Thinkaman]

Every e-sport has a mandatory end-screen. Early Surrender doesn't change that.

This isn't early surrender, which no one here opposes. It's just rudely prolonging things by skipping the endscreen.

For the millionth time, no one cares about the victory screen itself. It's arbitrary. What bothers people is a salty loser going out of their way to deny it.

If it doesn't matter, then why go out of your way to skip it?

 

[Judo777]

I remember that incident. The way the TO handled it was pretty cowardly. While you were the crowd favorite and probably would have won with pause off, you did actually break the rules and should have forfeit automatically.

IIRC, you paused during the first hit of a multi-hit move that can be teched/DIed to avoid death.

As harsh as it may sound, people who no contest or pause have technically broken a rule and should be punished as such. Its really just up to the TO not to be a pansy about enforcing their own rules.

Just so you know, upon pausing I immediately declared myself the loser. But most people were arguing for me because the match was already over.

It was a multi hit move in the sense that it has 2 hits, but I am pretty certain that the tipper hitbox of sheiks usmash locks the opponent in an animation form of hitlag (like marths tippers) that aren't DI-able until the animation ends. WHat this means is if you aren't already going to be hit by BOTH hit of the usmash (you are simply too high for the second hit to hit at the start of the animation) there is no way to DI into the second.

Before the rematch was played I allowed him (in a second game) to attempt to DI into the second hit about 30 times with it never being successful. Then I allowed him to attempt to survive the Usmash at that percent about 15 times, and he was never able to do it.

I admit that I was DQed by rules immediately upon the offense (which I stated the moment I committed it) but I wasn't going to allow it to be for any other reason, because there was no way to survive it. If I was unable to pause the game there was absolutely no way for either player to affect the outcome of the game at that point.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It was a multi hit move in the sense that it has 2 hits, but I am pretty certain that the tipper hitbox of sheiks usmash locks the opponent in an animation form of hitlag (like marths tippers) that aren't DI-able until the animation ends. WHat this means is if you aren't already going to be hit by BOTH hit of the usmash (you are simply too high for the second hit to hit at the start of the animation) there is no way to DI into the second.

That's not true; as a Wario main, I would be grab-released into it on a regular basis and could reliably slide into the second hit via SDI. It might be because Wario's body is larger than Olimar's (which would mean he has to cover less distance in the hitlag freeze), but it most certainly doesn't have a small hitlag freeze multiplier.

 

[Judo777]

That's not true; as a Wario main, I would be grab-released into it on a regular basis and could reliably slide into the second hit via SDI. It might be because Wario's body is larger than Olimar's (which would mean he has to cover less distance in the hitlag freeze), but it most certainly doesn't have a small hitlag freeze multiplier.

Really? Because most Warios I performed that on (Blue Rogue, BPow, And Kryzstedez) could never manage to. Granted the Sheik has to buffer the hyphen smash (otherwise Wario falls too low and will get hit by both hits). I was fairy certain if Sheik hit with the correct hitbox (the top of the tipper) it wasn't doable. Because I GR Usmashed so many character in tournament in Brawl.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I might be able to find a past match with Billy online in which I do it, but he can confirm that I would regularly do it. Maybe he was regularly messing up that buffered hyphen Smash input, but I can't imagine he would mess it up virtually all the time.

 

[Judo777]

I might be able to find a past match with Billy online in which I do it, but he can confirm that I would regularly do it. Maybe he was regularly messing up that buffered hyphen Smash input, but I can't imagine he would mess it up virtually all the time.

Its hard to say. One frustrating thing about GR's is that (and I can't remember the exact mechanic) there was some reason why you couldn't buffer the beginning of the run animation in a traditional sense (there was something about trying to buffer runs from GR that was weird in Brawl) so buffering that stuff was actually pretty hard. I couldn't imagine reliably doing it on wifi (I gave up trying GR DACUS on wifi, i could land it but it was never timed right and would always get the 2nd hit).

Billy was good tho for sure.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

If you are about to KO them just press start and pretend like you are gonna quit out, then when they aren't expecting it unpause. They won't react fact enough and you'll get your victory screen. Mind games, son.

but if it really bugs you just turn pause off

 

[Teshie U]

@ Judo777 , everyone watching knew you pressured and outplayed him that match and of course you were the crowd favorite. While I do believe in "inevitable defeat", SDI in Smash (especially Brawl), technically allows aerial targets to survive anything by teching the ground. I've seen Reflex do it and even without the tech, DIing deep down into Sheik's upsmash sends you outwards with less knockback and more damage. I've never been able to tech, but I've done that many times and it kills much later.

The real issue there is instead of enforcing a rule, the TO washed his/her hand of all responsibility of the situation by allowing a rematch so he/she wouldn't have to be the bad guy. Our community is very bad about that type of thing. We often bully TOs and players into allowing crowd favorites to break the rules.

 

[Graydient]

This is one of those things that greatly require context.

For example, a lot of people treat taunts online as disrepectful. And while many times it often is used with the intent to be disrespectful, it's also commonplace to use taunts as a greeting, some sort of acknowledgement (i.e. humor, skill, etc.), or even as something as simple as "striking a pose" (believe it or not, a lot of young kids play Smash and don't make the implicit connection of what a taunt is).

That being said, the majority of LRAS that I see is usually interpreted as a surrender, i.e. your opponent acknowledging you won. And through willingly surrendering pre-final game, it retains their mental fortitude, which is something you should absolutely respect in a play-to-win, competitive environment.

I do agree that players on-stream shouldn't do it last game, as it could annoy spectators, but even then, I'd very easily attribute it more to negligence than opponent/spectator spite. If the player really wanted to spite their opponent, simply don't shake their hand.

 

[κomıc]

Not in disagreement or anything, just curious - what is the opinion people have on the act of the winner pausing upon winning a match or taking a stock, like so?

I did that in some fun friendly matches when I knew using Peach's forward throw gets me a kill. It's funny to watch certain character's expressions and do some stupid dynamic camera rotation before the final hit of a secure stock (last stock). It's playful. But in tournament play, it's different.

I myself don't get the whole "No Contest" thing. Just accept defeat. Move on. I remember in Brawl it sometimes took longer for the No Contest screen to show up as it needed to load. That was annoying.

Essentially, I agree with OP.

 

[Judo777]

@ Judo777 , everyone watching knew you pressured and outplayed him that match and of course you were the crowd favorite. While I do believe in "inevitable defeat", SDI in Smash (especially Brawl), technically allows aerial targets to survive anything by teching the ground. I've seen Reflex do it and even without the tech, DIing deep down into Sheik's upsmash sends you outwards with less knockback and more damage. I've never been able to tech, but I've done that many times and it kills much later.

The real issue there is instead of enforcing a rule, the TO washed his/her hand of all responsibility of the situation by allowing a rematch so he/she wouldn't have to be the bad guy. Our community is very bad about that type of thing. We often bully TOs and players into allowing crowd favorites to break the rules.

That mechanic you are discussing is the second hit usmash we were already discussing. That was what I had been mentioning that I was under the impression that when in the top part of the tipper I haven't seen anyone be able to SDI into the second hit (if they aren't hit with the top part they can SDI into the second hit). Shortly after this i tried testing this pretty extensively (SDIing in 1/4 speed training mode and stuff) but never could manage it myself.

I thought floor teching was discredited on upward hitting moves. I believe the floor techs can only occur on moves that don't hit upwards (like the second hit usmash hits horrizontally). Either way I'm not worried about that. I was just curious.

And it wasn't entirely the TO's fault. To be completely honest, the issue was, when the pause occurred my opponent looked at me and said "Did you pause?" and I said yes and he said "So what does that mean?" And I said "I lose." The crowd made a big commotion and then later he said something along the lines of "i don't want to just take the win from you, it would be different if the move had already hit me." Then someone demanded we review the replay and we confirmed that the pause occurred during the usmashes startup, and in the middle of his uairs cooldown, where at that point the move landing was inevitable. So some people were saying that because "if it had already hit me" statement I should be awarded the win.

The first thing the TO asked him was, "what do you want to do? You can take the win." But he was saying he felt bad and didn't want to. So it wasn't just on the TO part of it was him saving face. Believe it or not I was the main person that DIDN'T want to rematch, especially after losing all of my momentum and due to the random nature of the CP I knew it would turn out bad. But my options were play the rematch or be dqed. So I had no choice.

 

[Teshie U]

In Brawl, you can technically DI down and tech the floor as long as the hit occurs when you are in the air. The game actually allows you to tech surfaces you are moving away from if you manage to SDI into them before hitlag is over.

Bottom line is that it wasn't up to you or Logic who won. The TO should have solved it instead of leaving a player to assume people would hate on him for taking the win.

Its in the rules and the rules are decided by tournament staff.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I thought floor teching was discredited on upward hitting moves. I believe the floor techs can only occur on moves that don't hit upwards (like the second hit usmash hits horrizontally).

I know for a fact that I've SDI'd down into a tech against grab-release U-Smash from Marth on many occasions, which is a single hit upward. It's definitely a thing (probably because of increased hitlag in that case).

 

[Judo777]

In Brawl, you can technically DI down and tech the floor as long as the hit occurs when you are in the air. The game actually allows you to tech surfaces you are moving away from if you manage to SDI into them before hitlag is over.

Bottom line is that it wasn't up to you or Logic who won. The TO should have solved it instead of leaving a player to assume people would hate on him for taking the win.

Its in the rules and the rules are decided by tournament staff.

I agree with you for the most part here, although not completely. It should partly be up to the players who wins and who loses. There is a certain level of mutual agreement in aspects of the game as far as rules are concerned. Most rules will state that any stage that both players agree to is legal. Also some minor offense disqualification rules can be ignored if agreed upon (a good example, if we both died on our second stock at the same time, then while both at 0 on opposite sides of the stage my opponent accidentally pauses, I don't feel forced to dq his final stock, although i have every right).

 

[Teshie U]

You can choose not to report it, but TOs should never be ignoring rules when they are aware of violations. This just opens the door for more bullying of violated players.

One of the many problems with this communty's identity crisis. We don't even know if we are grassroots for the players or trying to be esports for the spectators.