My Competitive Pet Peeve: Last-Second No Contest (Surrender)

[Judo777]

I hate the concept of competitive games geared towards spectators. Don't get me wrong, I prefer for it to good for both the player and the spectator, but if an issue arises where both are challenged I feel the player should be first and foremost. Sportsmanship should be what we strive for.

 

[Jebus244]

EDIT 2: Oh man, I've been arguing with a 14 year old kid. Lol, no wonder. How can you even say these things when you weren't even born when Smash 64 came out.

This is, and I'll quote you, "one of the most pathetic things I've read in a while."
Dude, how can you be against Nazi's when you weren't even born in time to fight wwII?

 

[Raijinken]

I hate the concept of competitive games geared towards spectators. Don't get me wrong, I prefer for it to good for both the player and the spectator, but if an issue arises where both are challenged I feel the player should be first and foremost. Sportsmanship should be what we strive for.

A good balance of both is necessary. Just like real sports, not everyone can really compete, and a lot of people enjoy watching people play. Especially if we want Smash to grow as an esport (which I personally do, dunno about everyone else), there does need to be a level of consideration for the spectator experience.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Duck Hunt is probably a reasonably fair competitive stage, but I want it banned on the grounds that the platforms heavily encourage camping, as well as the fact that the matchups that doesn't happen just puts another FD on the stage list, skewing counterpicks/bans.

Neither of those are good for the spectators. There has to be a balance.

 

[Raijinken]

Duck Hunt is probably a reasonably fair competitive stage, but I want it banned on the grounds that the platforms heavily encourage camping, as well as the fact that the matchups that doesn't happen just puts another FD on the stage list, skewing counterpicks/bans.

Neither of those are good for the spectators. There has to be a balance.

To be fair, it's a FD with an occasional rising platform, and a concealing clump of grass. It's about as different from FD as Smashville is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, it's a FD with an occasional rising platform, and a concealing clump of grass. It's about as different from FD as Smashville is.

I'm not talking about the grass or dog; I'm talking about the trees. As a Wario/Jigglypuff/Mega Man player, I'm trying to save everyone the trouble of getting timed out against me every single time I get a decent percent lead.

Unless you're Captain Falcon, I will ride my bike from the left trees to the right and see how you respond. If you give chase, I'll double-jump -> Air Bike (I get another Bike if the first is started from the ground) back to the left side. If you don't give chase, then I'll wait on the right tree until you do, in which case I'll jump -> Bike to the other side.

Jigglypuff can largely do a similar thing with camping the left side due to her mid-air jumps. If you give chase, she jumps back to the top of the left tree, which is hard for many characters to get to without significant time. If you don't give chase, she lands on the right tree to refresh jumps and/or to get underneath you.

Mega Man can Rush Coil camp for days, which is made better by fastfall mix-ups, airdodges, and Leaf Shield/Metal Blade.

 

[Jebus244]

I'm not talking about the grass or dog; I'm talking about the trees. As a Wario/Jigglypuff/Mega Man player, I'm trying to save everyone the trouble of getting timed out against me every single time I get a decent percent lead.

Unless you're Captain Falcon, I will ride my bike from the left trees to the right and see how you respond. If you give chase, I'll double-jump -> Air Bike (I get another Bike if the first is started from the ground) back to the left side. If you don't give chase, then I'll wait on the right tree until you do, in which case I'll jump -> Bike to the other side.

Jigglypuff can largely do a similar thing with camping the left side due to her mid-air jumps. If you give chase, she jumps back to the top of the left tree, which is hard for many characters to get to without significant time. If you don't give chase, she lands on the right tree to refresh jumps and/or to get underneath you.

Mega Man can Rush Coil camp for days, which is made better by fastfall mix-ups, airdodges, and Leaf Shield/Metal Blade.

I think this is the wrong thread for this post.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think this is the wrong thread for this post.

But it's the most likely way for me to cause a no-contest surrender! ;3

...Nah, you're right. I'll leave it for another discussion.

 

[Jiggly]

It's kind of like in Melee when foxes Phantom SD off the side or falcon's kick themselves to the bottom for an SD when they know they are too far for recovery. They know they are dead, they are just speeding up a process which can make everything easier on TOs and people in general. I've seen too many people complaining about unsportsmanlike behavior in smash, and I feel like people need to find out that it isn't rude, they are just speeding up the process.

CONGRATS. YOU WON. DCing doesn't change that, it only keeps you from seeing your victory screen, which is an egotistical value anyways if you are using that as an argument.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's kind of like in Melee when foxes Phantom SD off the side or falcon's kick themselves to the bottom for an SD when they know they are too far for recovery. They know they are dead, they are just speeding up a process which can make everything easier on TOs and people in general. I've seen too many people complaining about unsportsmanlike behavior in smash, and I feel like people need to find out that it isn't rude, they are just speeding up the process.

CONGRATS. YOU WON. DCing doesn't change that, it only keeps you from seeing your victory screen, which is an egotistical value anyways if you are using that as an argument.

It's significantly slower in Smash 4, though. The "are you sure" screen and all that forces you to wait longer.

 

[Jiggly]

It's significantly slower in Smash 4, though. The "are you sure" screen and all that forces you to wait longer.

Is it slower than the victory animation dance? Because you can't skip that like you can skip the no contest screen. One more A seems like it's still faster.

 

[Raijinken]

Is it slower than the victory animation dance? Because you can't skip that like you can skip the no contest screen. One more A seems like it's still faster.

The extra load time, etc, it's still longer to cancel. It might be slower for a small handful of very long names (Rosalina and Luma takes a while to say, for instance), if you get lucky and it loads in fast. But otherwise, it's still not faster.

 

[Jiggly]

The extra load time, etc, it's still longer to cancel. It might be slower for a small handful of very long names (Rosalina and Luma takes a while to say, for instance), if you get lucky and it loads in fast. But otherwise, it's still not faster.

It still has to load for victory, plus the "game" screen after the death. It just doesn't make sense to me how it is at all plausible it's longer, but at the same time I am pretty ignorant xD

 

[Raijinken]

It still has to load for victory, plus the "game" screen after the death. It just doesn't make sense to me how it is at all plausible it's longer, but at the same time I am pretty ignorant xD

I suggest timing it to see. Results will likely vary slightly (as load times vary). But if it isn't consistently (and statistically significantly) shorter, there's no reason to skip the game's declaration of the winner, particularly on stream/to save replays/etc.

Basically, unless it's a real time-saver, which most of us are inclined to believe it isn't, then the functional drawbacks are a relevant argument regardless of the perceived saltiness of the NCing player.

 

[Judo777]

Lol its extra funny when they attempt to LRAstart and miss input so they unpause it, making it take even longer.

This discussion is moot for me, i play with pause turned off...... haha

 

[Mechageo]

I was recently watching a tournament where this very thing happened. It left me disappointed and I felt like the climax of that battle had evaporated.

 

[revengeska]

This type of thing happening in different games, and people's reactions to it have always intrigued me. I started playing competitive Chess in high school, and resignation is the most common form of ending a game. In fact, when a player is losing really badly, it's almost a sign of disrespect to keep on playing because you're effectively telling your opponent that you're not sure they can win a game that you both know they should most certainly win. Kids playing Chess are often taught by coaches to play until the bitter end, particularly in lower levels because opponents are more likely to make big mistakes that can swing a game. But whether you get checkmated, or resign, there's no inkling of egotism in choosing either action as the losing player.

Then I got into competitive Magic: the Gathering. For the most part, veteran tournament players will concede matches and it's understood that this is an acceptable and respectable thing to do. However, there's still a minority of players(who tend to be more casual) that are really against conceding games if you're losing. They feel like it's their right to finish the game the way they choose while you hopelessly play on, defenseless to whatever they want to do in the game. This definitely feels like a form of egotism and sometimes it could technically take multiple turns for your opponent to actually finish you off, like if you get bad draw and just can't play anything, and you know that whatever you draw you can't stop them. I found it crazy that you're expected to satisfy their ego by being their punching bag when you've already conceded that you can't possibly win the game.

With all that being said, what's being described here is that in a few seconds, you're going to reach the same screen in a few seconds whether the game is exited or whether the player loses his last stock, and the only difference being the writing and the announcement on the screen being different. If I was the winner of a match where the loser did something like this, I think I would be bemused more than anything(I've never heard of this before). It would speak volumes to that player's self-esteem, and I would feel sorry for them more than anything else. However, it may not look the best to spectators so that's a downside. As far as being hopelessly behind, I would rather take the opportunity to try to learn something and have a little fun the rest of the way over ending the match immediately.