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My awesome British Kirby

MakoMako

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
252
Yeah I'd love to show you guys a video of the same old average Kirby WoPing and stage spiking some random novice, but I'm not going to. This thread isn't to flaunt my Kirby, it's a desperate cry for advice.

I'm London's 3rd best player, this was the hardest match I've ever had vs London's #1. In another match with him, he detonated a C4 next to me while he was in the air and placed another C4 on me as I was being launched passed him and detonated it while I was offscreen ;__;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MZqOABkhUlU&fmt=18

It's not pretty.

Pressure from the grand finals of my first ever tournament, first time facing a real Snake and ROB user Johns.

So anyone who has alot of experience against high levelled Snakes and ROB's plz halp ):

-hoping for a reply from asdioh, t!mmy, bunny, smiley, gonzo...or ANY other good kirby- I look up to all you Americans >_>
 

Dexlysic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
14
Wow... amazing matches.
I'm in no position to critique you, but one thing jumped out at me.
You didn't use inhale once!
Snake and ROB's copy abilities are great, so use them.
You could probably get more use out of your tilts, too.

BTW, I cried at 1:18.
 

Tiersie

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
843
Location
Leiden, Netherlands, Europe
I'm London's 3rd best player, this was the hardest match I've ever had vs London's #1. In another match with him, he detonated a C4 next to me while he was in the air and placed another C4 on me as I was being launched passed him and detonated it while I was offscreen ;__;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MZqOABkhUlU&fmt=18

It's not pretty.

Pressure from the grand finals of my first ever tournament, first time facing a real Snake and ROB user Johns.

So anyone who has alot of experience against high levelled Snakes and ROB's plz halp ):

-hoping for a reply from asdioh, t!mmy, bunny, smiley, gonzo...or ANY other good kirby- I look up to all you Americans >_>
This REALLY contradicts eachother. How can you dub yourself London's third best player after just 1 tourney?

Anyways I have experience againt a high leveled ROB. And even though I'm not American (why look up to every American anyway?) I could share some thoughts.

First of all. Watch out for ROB's aerials. They can piss you off and with kirby's pufballness N-air will easily kill. He can do this straight out of his UpB so Watch out when edgeguarding aswell. His Sidestep to Dsmash is also pretty annoying. So make sure that you try to short hop or maybe even roll away as fast as you can after you see that he's sidestepped. Try to inhale his Lazzor since Kirbycide won't work half of the time with his amazing recovery. When I try it it mostly just causes spikes.

Now onto your performance. I saw you using maybe 1 tilt that actually had a chance of connecting! Kirby's tilts are amazingly useful. Especially ftilt and Utilt. When you have a chance to use them use them. Because it hard to punish them aswell.

Try to grab combo more at low %. I saw you using a genuine grab combo only once on snake. And he didn't even try to get a grenade in. With better timing you could've gone for another grab straight away. Try to lead things into a grab combo.

I'll have to try F-throw to running Usmash sometime. Looks like it could just work.

Hope you can get some use out of this.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Yeah I'd love to show you guys a video of the same old average Kirby WoPing and stage spiking some random novice, but I'm not going to. This thread isn't to flaunt my Kirby, it's a desperate cry for advice.

I'm London's 3rd best player, this was the hardest match I've ever had vs London's #1. In another match with him, he detonated a C4 next to me while he was in the air and placed another C4 on me as I was being launched passed him and detonated it while I was offscreen ;__;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MZqOABkhUlU&fmt=18

It's not pretty.

Pressure from the grand finals of my first ever tournament, first time facing a real Snake and ROB user Johns.

So anyone who has alot of experience against high levelled Snakes and ROB's plz halp ):

-hoping for a reply from asdioh, t!mmy, bunny, smiley, gonzo...or ANY other good kirby- I look up to all you Americans >_>
first off, don't use Yellow Kirby on Final Destination. You stick out like a sore thumb.
(just kidding)

0:12 of the first match was one of the weirdest things I've ever seen in this game. A falling mortar behind you clashed when you ftilted in the opposite direction. O_O



Owned. D:


Be a lot more aggressive when Snake's offstage. Beware of his aerials, especially fair spike, but you're at an advantage out there. At 3:16 you hammered, but if you did it again, you could have gotten an easy kill.
(I just watched a little more, you were aggressive offstage and you got hit by a grenade, this guy is seriously good)
Try some Stones offstage. Or try Inhaling as he passes by, if you inhale him out of Cypher, and just let him fall out, he can't use it again. It's the same as grab release

I dunno. That Snake scares me, he's actually good, and doesn't rely on winning solely through broken tilts and grenades...his C4 usage was scary D:

My only advice for that is: use more Final Cutter and try stealing his power/gimping him more. Don't rolldodge into broken up tilt (he killed you with uptilt all 3 stocks, not your fault though, it's broken as HELL. see above picture..you were doing a Bair which seemed to extend your hitbox, and that's the result x_x bs)


ugh, his ROB is ridiculous too.

I don't have too much experience with ROB. Expect spam at all times, and be particularly aware of when you're in the path of a potential Gyro.

Pummel when you grab.

Use tilts more, especially uptilt, and especially after rolldodging, since you did rolldodge quite a bit.

Man...2 kills on that ROB: First with fsmash because he made a mistake trying to grab when you were out of range, and one with a stage spike because he screwed up horribly and got stuck under the stage for no apparent reason.

Definitely try getting his power next time, it's incredibly useful, and you can be an annoying spammer like him (gyro is way too spammable)
Just don't try copying when you're at too high % because ROB can DAir you after you copy.
Because Kirby is gimpy like that :urg:

I don't know what else to say...I doubt that I could have done any better @_@
 

momochuu

Smash Legend
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
12,868
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Momochuu
3DS FC
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Oh. My. Effing. Gee. Another Yellow Kirby. I was afraid I was the only one. D:

But yersh, nice job. Snake is not easy to fight at all. I only saw the Snake video so far because...I have no attention span whatsoever, but I will watch the other ones and give more advice! ^__^

You have to watch your opponent more and capitalize on their mistakes though. There was a point in the beginning of that match where the Snake started getting "Tumbleweedy" and rolled behind you a few times. Times like this are perfect for UpTilt. You can juggle Snake for a while with UpTilt and the more damage you can rack upon him, the better. You have to use more tilts in general though. Good for spacing, and you don't have to decay your FSmash, which is gonna be your Snake killer all the time.

Other things....when he is using his Cypher, that is the perfect time to use Air or Hammer. Don't just sit and watch him recover, that's the perfect time to attack. Kirby has the advantage in the air. =)

Take his grenades btw. And when fighting Snake, Final Cutter puts some pretty good pressure on him.
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
Joined
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Fromundaman
3DS FC
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It's critiquing time again!

First off, allow me to say you do have a good Kirby, though there are still things to be improved (There are ALWAYS things to be improved!).

As the others mention, you use almost no tilts or grab combos. Bad call. Learn the Gonzo combo, and abuse it, especially against Snake and at least in a limited capacity against ROB.

Against Snake, you need to pay attention to how long he holds onto his grenades. He can only have them out 5 seconds (they explode on the 5th).

You need to be careful about when you drop your shield. In the first match, you drop your shield several times just as an attack goes off.

Good job rolling away from Snake after the Dthrow.

Finally, as Kirby, you can actually go offstage and gimp Snake. For example, at 3:15 instead of hammering at the edge (which I have to admit isn't a bad strategy, and ****, the Snake's reaction was good!), go Bair him. In that position, if he used an aerial he would have fallen, and Bair knocks him out of cypher.

Also, Grenades can be pretty helpful in this matchup too if you can manage to inhale him.

All in all it was a pretty good match though. That was an impressive Snake!


Now, for the second match:

While you weathered the first match well, I could tell you had little experience against ROB in this match (which isn't a criticism of your Kirby, but your lack of knowledge/experience of the matchup shows). Unfortunately, the only experience I have against a high level ROB is playing a friend I met last week at the end of FFAs, but it was pretty enlightening (I'll face him again tomorrow, hopefully in a 1v1. I'll come back and post again once I do with more info, and perhaps even post a video of the match somewhere if I have it.).

Anyway, one of the most important things in this matchup, in my opinion, is taking ROBs laser. If you can take that power, you can spam it right back at him and seriously mess with his playstyle, especially since you can ledge hop/multijump, shoot and regrab the ledge better than ROB due to the short height at which you can pop above the edge with your jump. This allows you to pepper him with lasers without getting hit back, and forces him to approach into a position with is highly advantageous for Kirby.

Even supposing you don't use the ledge hopping, if you grab his gyro and steal his laser, you instantly cripple his ability to camp you, and are therefore able to outcamp him. As long as his gyro is on the stage, he cannot pull out a new one. Therefore, hold onto it, shoot lasers like crazy, and throw it up into the air when you want to use aerials/tilts/smashes (though you can Fsmash while holding the Gyro) so that it stays out longer and giving you the possibility of regrabbing it as it comes down if you find yourself in the right position.

Now for more general info on ROB vs Kirby:

ROBs Ftilt will outrange everything you have excluding the final cutter shockwave (which you really shouldn't be using much in this matchup, as it's just begging for a laser to the face), and it's hitbox is longer even than it looks, so be very careful around this move. I believe Bair clashes with it, but I really don't remember. I also am not sure if a dash pivot canceled Dtilt will slide under it, but it seems like a pretty risky idea, even if does work.

Also, ROB's aerials tend to outrange and/or outprioritize yours. Also, his Bair is disjoincted and will hit you even if you are in front of him. HOWEVER, all hope is not lost. The air is still your territory, despite the initial appearance. His aerials, except for his Fair (which can combo you if you don't DI), have significant startup and/or ending lag, especially the Dair. Also, Kirby has much more aerial mobility than ROB, especially if ROB is trying to recover, and, pay attention because this is especially important: YOU CAN GIMP ROB! Do it.

ROB users are so used to thinking their recovery is uncounterable that they will very easily fall into simple traps. For example, if a ROB is recovering with the Robo-burners, fly towards him, then, right as you approach his range, do a jump backwards and a little above him. Odds are, the ROB user will attempt to knock you out with a Fair, thinking you'll Bair him. Unfortunately for him, it doesn't extend above him, and since you positioned yourself correctly, he falls prey to a Dair to footstool. Odds are, this will not kill him though. However, it will force him to use all his remaining fuel to get back, meaning he can't even attempt to avoid anything else, otherwise he dies, which means you just go back and hit him again, and bam, he's dead.

Of course, this won't work every time, as he'll use Nair or Uair instead of Fair next to counter, so you have to switch it up, and Bair will destroy both of his previously suggested moves. This will mindgame him so badly he will spend most of his fuel almost every other time in the match waiting to see what you do, and guess what, you can stall in the air longer than he can. After all, he's on a timer, you're not. Just grab a ledge or land and jump again if you're getting low on jumps. After all, if he follows, you can punish due to his lack of fuel. Just remember to mix it up so he doesn't know what to do. He will start to panic after he notices his godlike recovery isn't so godlike after all, and that will lead to mistakes.
Also, if he tries to recover high, he becomes fairly easy prey when he lands, as his Dair is slow, and his Nair barely covers underneath him, so he will easily fall prey to your Uair/Usmash if you don't run right into his moves.
If he tries to go under the stage, he's just asking for a stone, Dair or FFed Bair, depending on your preference. It's just not really an option against Kirby.

And switching topics now because I think I've hammered the importance of screwing him offstage sufficiently:

Things to watch out for on-stage: Lasers and Gyro, as mentioned before, are a big one. When Rob fires a laser, it;s best to shield rather than spot dodge, as a gyro usually follows right behind it. The Gyro, however, is better to spot dodge rather than shield. The reason I say this is because if you shield the gyro, or even clash with it, it disappears and ROB can pull out a new one right away, as you noticed. If it does stay on the stage, make sure you get to it before he does. If he grabs it, he will glide toss to Fsmash almost every time, since it seems to work. One thing I think might work against this (though I haven't tried it), is to try to Utilt both, since I know Utilt clashes with ROB's Fsmash, and I *think* it clashes with the gyro. A safer idea, however, is to do a retreating Bair. It will clash with the Gyro and get you out of Fsmash range (Yes, I know I said you don't want to clash with it, but when he has it in his hands and is capable of glide tossing, you're no longer trying to get an ideal position but rather trying to do damage control).
If you do get a hold of the gyro, either throw it into the air to keep it out of the game longer, hold onto it, or, if you're on a stage with lava, throw it into the lava, as it will bounce around in it and take the gyro out of the game for a long period of time.

Another thing to watch out for (I know, I know, he's got so much good stuff...) is a spot dodge to Dsmash. If you see ROB spot dodge, automatically assume he will Dsmash out of it if you are in range and adapt accordingly.

Finally, his Dtilt comes out fast and can trip, so try to be careful with that too. if you do trip, I don't really know what to tell you... You roll into him, you get Dsmashed, and if you roll away, you get gyroed, lasered, or Dthrowed.

Oh, and his Nair autocancels I believe. It has a little lag but not too much.

Oh, and one last last thing: His dash attack has decent priority/range. It's not amazing, and I believe it clashes with all your tilts, but it's there anyway.


Edit: Man, what is with me and all of these wall of texts lately...?
 

Kasper!

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
1,049
Location
England, London
LOOOL Mako these are some mad responses and i mean in the size :laugh:

1st best in london: Fuzzyness
2nd best in london: Kira!
3rd best in london: MakoMako
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Snake's grenades explode after 3 seconds, not 5 >_>

Right?
 

MK26

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
Mako, those vids are pretty impressive.

Uh...critique:

You are technically very good. You seem to know alot about how Kirby works, frame traps (like the f-throw --> u-smash) and stuff like that. You need to work on the mindgames aspect, the less tangible aspect of tricking your opponent. For instance, at 2:04, when the Snake was cypher recovering...you could have been able to guess by the angle of the cypher that he was going for the ledge and not the stage, and an edgeguard would have killed him.

And stop spamming F-smash
Grab
Pummel when you grab
Grab
Use U-tilt
Grab
Edgeguard with attaacks other than hammer
Grab
Avoid ROB's nair at all costs
Grab
There were several times in the Snake match where a Final Cutter would disrupt his rhythm and force him to stop camping for a moment...learn to recognize those moments
Grab
Did you seriously counterpick Smashville against a guy that just used Snake?
Grab
Use inhale more; both swallow and spit out
Grab Grab Grab Grab Grab Grab
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
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Miamisburg, OH
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Fromundaman
3DS FC
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Oh boy... I need to take my own advice a little more... I just got demolished >.<

Anyway, things I have come to realize: Uptilt, if timed correctly, clashes with almost everything ROB has. You see a spot dodge: Uptilt.

especially since you can ledge hop/multijump, shoot and regrab the ledge better than ROB due to the short height at which you can pop above the edge with your jump.
Yeah... you know how I said that? Yeah, that's BS... ROB can drop down, turbo>laser much better than you can ledge drop>jump>laser. Also, if you get close, you get a facefull of Nair, and occasionally a Gyro.I'm not really sure what works best against this yet. Maybe a FC or stone? Timed ledge grab invincibility stopped everything else I tried... (Unless you get his gyro, in which case jump, throw it straight up when jumping above the ledge he's camping, and do aerials. He'll focus on the aerials and get hit by the gyro on the its way down.)

Odds are, the ROB user will attempt to knock you out with a Fair, thinking you'll Bair him. Unfortunately for him, it doesn't extend above him, and since you positioned yourself correctly, he falls prey to a Dair to footstool.
Good thinking, bad strategy. Turns out I was wrong and all of ROB is the hitbox, so while this still can work, it won't if you FF it since you'll hit the hitbox. Also, this is much harder to do than I seemed to suggest, though I still managed it a few times.

Other than that, I think what I said was pretty good. FC at opportune moments will also disrupt the other's gameplay, as MK26 suggested. Still, you do better against Snake and ROB than I do (Especially Snake!).


Also, for the grenades, I guess it depends on how fast you count. The way I count it, I count out 5 seconds, though I'm starting to get a hang of the timing, so I rarely count it anymore.
 

rgrwilco

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
112
Location
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
At 3:02 that was ****ing gay invisible hit box, but watching your first match not gonna lie you got a good spacing but your impatient. if you got 8 mins to use use it all up, i know most snake players strike when they see a chance and all they do is camp but you got to wait them out, its pretty much a battle of patience. Its pretty much up to you, in a grand final are you more worried about winning or impressing the crowd. and you got to mix up your approaches i can see you just try to approach him with the bair and all he does is side step ALL the way to the other side and throw **** at you. so couple things is : be VERY VERY patient, pick up his nades and chuck it back at him, suck up his powers and use it, and fight him in the air snake has a pretty bad air game all his got is the bair too. other then that USE LOTS OF TILTS because all you do is C-Stick and kirbs is to slow for that **** move around rack up slow dmg and then use your smash when you see fit. and remember your going to him all the time make him approach you.

ANd for your rob game, once again PLEASE be more patient, watch your slef you approach him 80% of the time and all ROB does is move back a bit then hit you also your approach at 5:39 hes not even comming to attack you you came to him hang back dont always approach with the same moves move players if your kirby just do the drill kick all they do move back a step and hit you like he did. so just hang back change up the pace cause both games you played at THEIR PACE not yours and pnce agian use your tilts and super punches the "AAAAAAA" when peopel spot dodge alot use it it ***** it. and other then that robs laser has lots of prority suck that **** up and use it.
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Fromundaman
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ANd for your rob game, once again PLEASE be more patient, watch your slef you approach him 80% of the time and all ROB does is move back a bit then hit you also your approach at 5:39 hes not even comming to attack you you came to him hang back dont always approach with the same moves move players if your kirby just do the drill kick all they do move back a step and hit you like he did. so just hang back change up the pace cause both games you played at THEIR PACE not yours and pnce agian use your tilts and super punches the "AAAAAAA" when peopel spot dodge alot use it it ***** it. and other then that robs laser has lots of prority suck that **** up and use it.
Unless you get both ROBs laser and Gyro, it's pretty much impossible to get ROB to approach you. He can camp you all day.
 

Tamoo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
4,499
Location
England, Orpington, S.London
LOOOL Mako these are some mad responses and i mean in the size :laugh:

1st best in london: Fuzzyness
2nd best in london: Kira!
3rd best in london: MakoMako
loool nice one kira!, last time i checked the leaderboards, I was second and you dont even have a ranking yet;)
Anyway, not much i can say in the way of advice but i remember playing your kirby and finding it very tough. First time ive ever played against a kirby who didnt stone spam, and i was very much taken aback.
Having been knocked out by fuzzy in pretty much every tournament ive entered so far, i feel i can give you my imput on how to beat him. I usually play very defensively, and i was thus punished by fuzzy's charactes, however, whenever i was up in his face, he tended to respond using very predictable measues (Rob spotdodge to dsmash spam lol). All in all, he is just an incredibly skilled player (but please improve, we need sumone to knock him off the top, hes too cocky) He doesnt have that many weaknesses so im kinda clutching at straws with my advice here
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Fromundaman
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ROB is generally a pain to play against regardless... In fact, despite all the advice I put up here, of the matches I recorded, I only won 1 out of 7 of this matchup, so yeah...
 

t!MmY

Smash Hero
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Edit:

Okay, so practice up those combos. Kirby's got a number to choose from, especially on Snake and ROB, but since I saw you use a B-throw when you grabbed Snake at low percent that means you need to put some work into combos. The basic throw combo with Snake at low percent is F-throw into U-air. You can also D-throw into u-tilt and go for aerial follow-ups or be sneaky and catch him on his way back down with another grab if he air dodges.

The next major point with Snake is to always keep an eye out for that u-tilt, especially when you're at 90% or more. That's when he likes to go for the KO on Kirby, and his U-tilt is the perfect answer. I'm basically saying this because you tossed out some b-airs at him for spacing only to get KO'd by a U-tilt. B-air spacing is fine, especially to bait the player into an aggressive posture, but you don't really want to do this with Snake because it's just leaving yourself open for that U-tilt. Either hit him with the B-air dead on, or don't stick it out at all. Instead, just Perfect Shield his U-tilt and punish with anything at your disposal.

When you see Snake pulling out grenades, don't start hitting at him without abandon; you're likely to blow the grenade in his hand and take 12% damage. Instead, go for grabs. The only thing he can do with a grenade in his hand is put up a shield and drop the grenade, which won't stop the grab. Don't pummel and don't D-throw because the hitbox from those attacks can also set off the grenades. Instead, just do a quick throw (U-throw is safest, though you can toss him forward/backward too).

Hit Snake with a Giant Swing (Air Hammer) whenever he's off the stage, unless you can 'cypher grab' or something. If you don't have time to wallop him with a Giant Swing, at least hit him with something that does 7% damage or, preferably a B-air. If he's going up high and you can't reach him, at least try to get him on his way back down because he's still vulnerable. Your aerials will likely hit him before he can do one to you, so watch for his B-air or Air Dodge and send him back off the stage/KO him.

Don't roll at Snake. He likes nothing more than you to do that so he can tilt you. Try shielding, or just backing off. Look for openings and play it safe, but punish as much as you can when he leaves himself open.

R.O.B. is another tough match-up for Kirby due to the robot's long reach, projectiles and fortitude. My best advice is to learn ROB's moves: their reach, when he lags himself, and how to best get your hits in. For instance, ROB's N-air has very little landing lag and a big hitbox so you can expect a ROB to either auto-cancel it or quickly land and toss out another quick attack.

Again, learn the combos against ROB. He's heavy and floaty, not as easy to combo as Snake, but you should be able to get some good damage on him when you get things going. F-smash is good for getting the KO on him when you can see the opening for it. Other than that, try to space yourself really well with B-air, get grabs in on him as much as possible, and watch out for his KOing hits (N-air, D-air, F-smash, B-air, and off stage attacks). Getting Giant Swings on him is very good.

I've got to go, but you've got a good Kirby. Keep up the good job.
 
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