Mr. Game and Watch's Gimps and Guards ~ The Offstage Thread

[Splice]

Game and Watch is a very flexible character offstage; with a great recovery, fantastic ability to plank and an arsenal of moves that can all be used very differently, he is relatively safe and has a lot of options on the edge.

In this thread I hope to put together a list of options for gimping the different characters in the game, whilst, of course, taking into consideration how they might counter this, and could gimp you in turn.

Instead of discussing one thing in particular I think I'll let this be free discussion, seeing as we'll end up getting set on a topic anyway.

Although, beating-Diddy-offstage talk would be nice

Any suggestions for other things we can discuss in this thread (not just gimps) and how to format it once we get some information would be good. And a better title for the thread?

And in updating and thread maintainance - I'll only be as active as you guys are

METAKNIGHT

Notes:
*We're one of the few characters that can get away with challenging MK offstage. He still has more options though
*You are usually better off making sure MK doesn't get back on stage then you are trying to hit him whilst he is off stage.
*When MK is very far off stage it can be best to harass.
*Forcing MK to use as many jumps as possible before you try to harrass limits his options immensely and is a good idea.
*If MK is far off stage with few jumps, then you can edgehog all his recovery options, forcing him to land on stage; you should be able to get a free hit.
*Be patient, but honestly if you are in doubt you may be better off not trying to go after Meta Knight off stage.
*MKs options for getting back onstage safely are somewhat limited unless you get too close to the edge and he upb/fairs/uairs you away

Your Moves: X

Metaknights Options:

Recovering High: often gliding. You can Up-B him out of this, but also Nair is better if you can get high enough, as it beats glide attack.

Recovering at a Middle Level: He might consider Tornado and Drill Rush. If he's going on stage, perfectly spaced Smashes can beat both of those, but note he can often decide at the last second whether to go on stage or for the ledge. Tornado can also be countered with aerials from above or windbox abuse, but if you have to go offstage to windbox nado, MK often has time to get away. Drill Rush doesn't go particularly far, so interrupting it before it even starts with aggressive F-airs is desirable. You can edgehog both of these options if they are going for the edge and often punish them when they are forced on stage. Any time Metaknight is idly sitting around this range, you could consider going for F-airs anyway due to their range and raw power. He's unlikely to kill you for you attempting to edgeguard him here anyway, but he may hit you with a move sending you far enough away for him to get onstage. If you can Windox the Drill Rush offstage, you can get a Dair spike or at least a Fair.

Recovering low: If he is recovering low or edgestalling, you can to D-air him. When attempting this don't slowfall D-air until the move hits him. This should ideally outspeed him if he tries to drop low to outspace your D-air. UpB and Nair can beat this though, and you can even get spiked doing this. It can be best to make him waste as many jumps as possible before you try anything, and watch out for invincibility frames from the ledge. It can be best to just keep him offstage with pressure, and punish his attempts back on stage with bacon > airials if the bacon hits him, or even swift use of smashes. If he uses the Dimensional Cape and is going to sweet spot the edge, then if you know the timing you can Dair spike it, or grab the edge if you have more time or FF Nair to punish.

FOX/FALCO

Notes:
*You want them at or below stage level.
*GaWs Fair is great! It can interrupt illusion at certain points, but also the UpB.
*Bait them into doing what you want them to do, because you have very definitive answers for each option if you predict it.


Your Moves:
JAB: A nice gimmick is to jab them out of Side-B. It's rarely expected and it will force them to use their Up-B (and then get Dair spiked or weak-Faired>follow-up).

Their Options:
Above or level with the stage, they can use Illusion and Firefox. Both moves have a moment of starting lag, and you can tell when they are planning illusiong often by how they space themselves to the stage as they come back. If they land onstage, spaced Fsmash or Usmash can hit them. Spaced Dair can hit the SideB if you predict the timing, and you can Fair after this, especially if you still have another jump left. If they go for the edge you may be able to hit with Dtilt. Fair cuts right through the UpB however, and once one connects, you can continue to Fair them til they can no longer recover, whilst you UpB to safety. Don't let them hitch a ride on the windbox though

If they recover low, then you can edgehog the UpB if they are low. but if they manage to land on stage you can still get a free Nair. You can Also spike with Dair if they are high enough and they have used their jump, so you will know when they are going to UpB to time it right. If they are sitting on the edge though, they can drop off and jump back on and space UpB more elaborately. You can trick them into doing what you want them to do, coz if you know whats going on, you have an answer to everything that will likely kill them.

 

[PentaSalia]

Maybe to start off the thread we should list down the characters that can get gimped by his weak fair offstage.
Obvious example: lol

More input when I get home D:.

 

[overgamer]

I'll also post some gimmick/gimp on some chars that I think works pretty well, also add why we should not try to gimp some chars (eg. MK). Just like Penta, I'll Edit later.

We can always have some talks/opinions etc. I guess every feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Why shouldn't we chase MK offstage? We're one of the few characters who can get away with that. Sure, you're not gonna be able to gimp him, but you should be able to eek out a close blastzone kill or some percent. It's not like he can gimp you much better than we can gimp him.

Maybe for a title something like "G&W's Gimps and 'Guards". Well, maybe not. I do think "Offstage Thread" seems rather weak.

I think most people already have a general idea of what moves to edgeguard with, so I think we could get away with going to character specific edgeguarding. Something like a player posting a character and all the best ways to deal with them offstage, and then we can revise it. That could be quick if a lot of people post how they deal with their best known matchups offstage.

Maybe videos highlighting a certain point in a match to showcase edgeguard reads + gimps?

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Maybe to start off the thread we should list down the characters that can get gimped by his weak fair offstage.
Obvious example: lol

More input when I get home D:.

If you can hit Snake out of his initial cipher jump, you can usually have your way with him from there.
Throw sausage at MK everyone and make them go low.

 

[A2ZOMG]

See the thing about G&W that's so awesome is that he makes extremely good use of practically every edgeguard and gimp tactic known in competitive Smash, minus the fact his spike is extremely situational. Virtually all of his attacks are good for edgeguards, and to round things out his solid onstage punish game (juggles and edgetraps) makes him very intimidating to recover against when he uses his options correctly.

I could go in depth about it, but I think it would definitely be easiest to discuss edgeguarding on a matchup specific basis. Although G&W has some strong tactics that universally work extremely well, it's important for him to know the specifics of his opponent's recovery as well.

 

[Exdeath]

Something that I've been doing lately is eating second jumps with Bair.

 

[overgamer]

A2, you suggest we discuss each character's recovery option? Let's start with hier tiers, then. Everyone agrees with that? I suggest we start with MK as he got the most problematic recovery options.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Just hang out near the edge with chef, then throw out a bair and grab the ledge. This way you'll get him to use a few jumps. After that you go on the offensive, something MK rarely expects off-stage. Nair is very effective down below stage level, and if you're lucky you might get a stage spike with fireman near the stage. If they keep their distance, you can ledgehog all of his recovery options, forcing him to land on the stage. If you know how to read shuttle loop, you can upair it to put him much much higher than he wants to be, and then proceed with juggling and upair shenanigans, resulting in free hits.

 

[Exdeath]

For Meta Knight, it's more important that you prevent Meta Knight from being on the stage/being able to shield than it is to hit him. That is to say, don't worry about hitting MK off-stage; it's ok to harass him when he's far off stage, but I recommend staying on stage when he's closer. It's vital to the match-up -- especially when it's killing time.

 

[Zekeishere]

See the thing about G&W that's so awesome is that he makes extremely good use of practically every edgeguard and gimp tactic known in competitive Smash, minus the fact his spike is extremely situational.

If you can Jump to Snake while he's Cyphering, you can easily sweet spot dair him and spike him.

 

[Zekeishere]

Also, don't run off and Bair good MKs if they are on the edge. That is baaaaad.

 

[overgamer]

Ok, MK has various recovery. For each of his moves, we can attempt to windbox his ***. I'll discuss windbox options for now.

-Drill (Side B):
If he is far away from the stage he can drill back to the stage. One of the way of stoping him would be to try to hit him with a windbox from Up-B, or Uair (which is really too hard I guess), and then follow with anything during his freefall animation. Don't try to hang the ledge, as his drill will simply outlast the invincibility frames even if you manage to grab very late.

-Nado (Neutral B):
if he is at the same height of the stage, he can recover using Nado, but as G&W players, we are used to punish this move with windboxes, so if we can guess a tornado, there's no way MK's not gonna get punished. Train punishing nadoes, fellow G&Ws! MKs will never use this move here and there again against us. =)

-Shuttle Loop (Up B):
There is the problematic move. With few invinsibility frames, and somehow effective vertical movement, it's really hard to prevent or stop this move. And it had a ridiculous strong hitbox knockback which can stage-spike you easily if you fail to read this move while attempting to intercept it under the stage (duhduhduh). It hits at frame 8, but invincibility starts from 5 to 8. If we want to use Up-B Windobox to mess his recovery, we have the first active frame hitting at 9 which means we have to use it before MK, which is why it's super hard to use it. And even, if you manage to pull it through, he won't fall in free fall, which means he probably can't be punished.

-Dimentional Cape (Down B)
One way to mess with this is to hang to the stage. The thing is MKs will probably never use this to recover, unless you are farly far away, due to other much better recovery options. Though, this can lead to a quick death if the MK fails it.

Ok these are always situational, and always require to have some good read ability. We'll discuss how to react before he does any of his recovery a little later on.

 

[Splice]

I guess starting with Metaknight is probably the best idea hey. It always is.
____________

Windboxing Shuttle Loop and Nado don't really help you gimp because if you have to go offstage to windbox them, they can normally get away before you punish freefall anyway. If the Dimensional Cape is going to sweet spot the edge if you know the timing you can Dair spike it, or grab the edge if you have more time or FF Nair to punish but that won't gimp. i dont think windboxing this is useful. But if you can windox the drill offstage, you can actually get a Dair spike or at least a Fair off this which is pretty good.
Read ability is essential yes.

You have to be careful with MK because his Dair can hit you in the perfect direction just away from the stage into that little corner of the blastzone. His Nair is also good offstage for stage spiking. Fair and Bair are pretty bad though, so I find trying to be to the sides above MK is a nice spacing, and Nair will still hit him if I use it. But you must always be wary of getting spiked by the stage or hit away from it by Shuttle Loop. I'm not sure of the best ways overall to gimp MK, as when I do it I find it's almost directionally proportionate to how much you outplay them. You have to predict them a bit, and they must do the same to you, you have so many options.
____________

I have to agree with Xdeath; you can force MK to stay offstage much better than you can harrass him whilst he's offstage, and you can always go in for a gimp if you see an opening/get a read.

I have trouble gimping Falco/Fox tbh. What angle should I be forcing them to recover from? I'm thinking if I halt their recovery with FF Nair, then this resets the situation except I'm closer to them. In which case I can sourspot-Fair them I guess? But I have been having trouble.

Sourspot Fair is so good btw, it hits your opponent diagonally downwards, which is great, and it hits them away slowly so you stay close to them to do anything up. You force them into a position where they can no longer recover but you still can. But make sure not to catch them in your UpB windbox if you UpB right after a sourspot Fair <___<

@Mr.Esc: I'll change the title to what you suggested. I really couldn't think of anything.
_________________________

I think for updating I'll just create a section for every character, and we can just have free-discussion and then whenever lots of information is covered for a particular character I'll put it in or whatever.
Don't have the most time to discuss at the moment, one more week of school

EDIT: Probs put in a moves section after more discussion and when holidays start too

ps; Bacon is pretty great offstage, because the hitstun can get you a move, but as Xdeath said in the other thread, if they airdodge it, that can give you even more options even a Dair spike. Also, if you are offstage and they are further offstage than you, and you are preferably higher than them, B-reversal Bacon can make them airdodge when they are actually kinda far from stage, and it can often set up a better position for you to guard them from. And if they just get hit by the bacon, you can probably get a sour spot Fair in which would be the end of most characters. I've done this like twice but it seems to work. A bit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't consider Metaknight very difficult for G&W to edgeguard personally. He has a lot of options, but G&W has the tools to counter pretty much all of them soundly, and the risk of getting gimped as G&W for making an error is relatively low.

The main question is will Metaknight recover high, mid level, or low?

If he recovers high, he's probably gliding. There is no reason to not aggressively Up-B him out of that if your aim is good. If he tries to glide towards you in attempt to get cheeky with his glide attack, N-air beats it for great damage.

At mid level, he might consider Tornado and Drill Rush. If he's going on stage, perfectly spaced Smashes are the best option to counter those. Tornado can also be countered with aerials from above or windbox abuse. Drill Rush doesn't go particularly far, so interrupting it before it even starts with aggressive F-airs is desirable. Any time Metaknight is idly sitting around this range, you should generally consider going for F-airs anyway due to their range and raw power. He's unlikely to kill you for you attempting to edgeguard him here anyway.

When Metaknight is recovering low, and when he's edgestalling, you want to D-air him. Plain and simple. The key thing (no pun intended) is you don't slowfall D-air until the move hits him. This should ideally outspeed him if he tries to drop low to outspace your D-air. For the most part you don't really have to worry about what recovery move he does if you're D-airing him out of his recovery.

 

[overgamer]

Ok, one more point we should discuss is MK jumps. He got freaking 5 of em. I suggest everytime you put him offstage, pay attention to how many times he can jump, as it allows him to avoid being hit and can seriously mess-up edgeguarding attempts. If he is forced to use them all, then you can definitively be sure he'll recover depending on his postion offstage as A2ZOMG stated.

 

[Splice]

thats really MKs biggest advantage offstage; more jumps so he has more time offstage before he has to make a choice and do attack, it helps him time what he does and bait you, and harder for you to force him to actually do anything sometimes.

For now, what A2Z said spot-on, although idk if Nair beats glide attack. guess it depends on angle a bit.

 

[Alphicans]

Nair definitely beats glide attack. Glide attack has awful priority, so a multihit move like nair or even bair will hit him easily.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

I have trouble gimping Falco/Fox tbh. What angle should I be forcing them to recover from? I'm thinking if I halt their recovery with FF Nair, then this resets the situation except I'm closer to them. In which case I can sourspot-Fair them I guess? But I have been having trouble.

You want them at or below stage level. Both Illusions have a moment of startup lag, plus you can usually tell whenever they're planning on using it by watching how they orient themselves to the stage as they come back. If they use Firefox/Fire...bird?lol you should not let them live. Fairs are the way to go, but for a guaranteed kill try to get them to come closer to the stage and stage spike them. If you're feeling particularly bada$s, you can always go for a dair spike.
Anyway, I think you're right in using fair, fair, and fair.

 

[Exdeath]

Glide attack isn't really used for priority; it's used for clashing and getting a guaranteed punish out of it. The problem is with moves like Fair, where he can glide attack Fair and then hit you with Nair/Up-B (or if you're near the ground, Dsmash/Usmash/etc.).

As for Fox/Falco, a nice gimmick is to jab them out of Side-B. It's rarely expected and it will force them to use their Up-B (and then get Dair spiked or weak-Faired>follow-up).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox and Falco are tricky to edgeguard, in that depending on the situation, you probably have to do some 50/50 guesswork, and just hope it works in your favor.

Properly spaced D-airs can cover their option of SideB really well. Note the emphasis on spacing it properly. This is with the assumption that Fox or Falco are trying to make you guess between them going for the ledge, or SideBing just above the ledge. If you're edgeguarding a little more aggressively, B-air usually beats their SideB as well as I recall.

If you can get them offstage with D-tilt at moderately high percents, which will most likely force them to use their midair jump sooner than they want to, you might have a little more success in edgeguarding them.

Having good reaction time also helps. Especially for Fox's SideB, waiting near the edge and reacting with an edgehog or an attempt to punish him onstage (with a tilt) is a good strategy. The same can be done against Falco, except it's harder since his SideB is faster.

If they're recovering low, generally you just want to edgehog them, since their Up-Bs are garbage. But getting a free hit on them works too.

 

[Today]

Versus Meta Knight you're going to have to know how to bait and outsmart your opponent as well as being very patient.

I'm going to use Vinnie's match vs. M2K for example.
Every single time Vinnie tried to do something vs. M2K while he was offstage Vinnie got punished and hurt from it. (Super close, btw.) But, it. never. worked.

It's best to try not to go too aggressive when MK is off stage.

If you are going to try and fight Meta Knight off stage you have to be able to bait for whatever he shoots out (and the problem with GnW is that his air dodge isn't exactly the best.) Be patient, but honestly if you are in doubt you may be better off not trying to go after Meta Knight off stage.

Key word: baiting. Outsmart your opponent.

I agree with A2's opinion on Fox and Falco and that it's really 50/50. I play tons and tons of Falcos. The best thing you can do is to trick them into doing something you want them to do.
Make them fear getting back on stage and wanting to grab the ledge. Throw out hitboxes on stage, they'll realize they would want to try get the ledge if that's the case. Get them once they get into that. Watch what they do.
Meta Knights do the same thing. When a character is recovering a MK will throw out hitboxes (fair or whatever) not focusing on hitting them but to MAKE them recover a certain way. If I'm throwing dair below you are going to want to go up. Then, MK makes his move. Same thing.

 

[overgamer]

OK bumping. I want to hear what you think about Marth guys?
Personally, If you manage to eat up their double jump, they are dead, or punished hard if they land on stage. Weak Fair is the way to go, altough I think Dair is still good also.

I think marth got two setups for recovering. First if you try to go under platform, he will double jump up and get back to the land. If you stay above the edge, he'll simply wait, and double jump (+DB boost) and up as late as possible and he can outlast inv. frames of edgeguarding pretty easily)

What do you think?

 

[Alphicans]

Lol, I somehow manage to get marth with downtilt as he's ledge hopping all the time. Instant death even at 0 lol.

 

[PentaSalia]

you don't have to chase Mk offstage all the time. Let him grab the ledge and wait for him to do something.
His options for getting back onstage safely are somewhat limited unless you get too close to the edge and he upb/fairs/uairs you away. He cant nado back onstage most of the times cuz then we'll upb and he'll be in freefall lol

Good example here

and of course a great read by zac lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

OK bumping. I want to hear what you think about Marth guys?
Personally, If you manage to eat up their double jump, they are dead, or punished hard if they land on stage. Weak Fair is the way to go, altough I think Dair is still good also.

I think marth got two setups for recovering. First if you try to go under platform, he will double jump up and get back to the land. If you stay above the edge, he'll simply wait, and double jump (+DB boost) and up as late as possible and he can outlast inv. frames of edgeguarding pretty easily)

What do you think?

Pretty much this.

When Marth is recovering low, my goal is to stagespike him out of his Up-B. In theory I guess they could tech, but I haven't seen it happen yet. Either way it's free damage. Or if he's at high enough damage, you could just go for the vertical KO.

The most annoying thing about edgeguarding Marth is if he uses counter to stop you from being too aggressive. It's just something you have to keep in mind.

Depending on how Marth spaces his Up-B, D-tilt occasionally does hit him out of his ledge sweetspot attempts. Not something you want to rely on, but when it does happen, he's essentially dead.

 

[Splice]

Keep discussing guys, I'll update soon, we're starting to get some stuff on Marth/Falco/Fox/MK, so it's good. I'll use the info from Mr.Escs thread and make a section like that in mine soon

Havent had much time lately but should be able to do it in the next week please stay active :D:D:D:D

 

[Alphicans]

If you can pull it off, chef off stage is killer. Sends at the worst possible angle. Really good vs marth if you can land it, and if you catch snake off gaurd with it, it's an easy edgegaurd, usually setting up for a perfect chance for dair spikes. I personally think b reversal chef offstage for gimps should be utilized more because of how effective it can be at times.

 

[Splice]

Updated for Fox/Falco and MK, for now. Mildly formatted lol.

Continue to Discuss!

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Wavebounced chef to underneath the lip on stages like FD is sexy, but nobody likes to hang out underneath there. I'm still waiting for the opportunity to do it to someone.
I think chef from on-stage really messes with Fox/Falco's recovery.
Also, spacing chef so that your meat lays just over the edge can sometimes hit Marth before he grabs the ledge, especially if they don't sweet spot. Then you just dtilt and get gimps like Alphicans.

 

[Splice]

Wavebounced chef to underneath the lip on stages like FD is sexy, but nobody likes to hang out underneath there. I'm still waiting for the opportunity to do it to someone.

Those times a snake uses UpB in a way you can grab it at the lip of the stage? Wavebounce Chef underlip. Looks more stylish, at least. ive done it a few times but can think of any other characters where its likely to happen...

 

[Alphicans]

Or you could wavebounce away from the stage. The boost catches people off gaurd a lot of times, and the fact that it's chef helps too lol.

 

[overgamer]

Updated for Fox/Falco and MK, for now. Mildly formatted lol.

Continue to Discuss!

Keep on the formating, buddy, it's great. I'm gonna do some testing with MK and check something.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Or you could wavebounce away from the stage. The boost catches people off gaurd a lot of times, and the fact that it's chef helps too lol.

This actually works well on SV: if you're holding the ledge while someone is offstage and the platform is on that side, you can wavebounce chef as soon as you jump from the ledge, hitting them off of the platform if they choose to land on it since you're hogging the ledge.

 

[Splice]

Thats a good idea, ToC!

Keep up the character discussion if you can guys!
I for now don't have much to add myself.

Can we talk about Diddy a bit more too? I have trouble....

Just keep it up, guys!

 

[Alphicans]

For diddy I find it best to edge hog and let him overshoot the ledge onto the stage. You can tell if he's going for the stage rather than the edge, so you can get off the edge well before he lands and just smash him. If at low percents dsmash him so he gets sent off the stage again (maybe), and at high percentages fsmash for the kill. Shouldn't be that hard :/.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

I never play any Diddys, can you do upair shenanigans when they try to overshoot the ledge? Like, is there still time to get onto the stage and hit them afterwards?
Speaking of upair shenanigans, you can literally upair Yoshi to his death if you do it out of his second jump as he's coming back onto stage. He'll usually have so much momentum coming back that you can just send him on his way off the other side of the stage without even having to touch him. Of course they can always just wavebounce or yoshi bomb, but if they're not expecting it and they're too busy worrying about getting hit... yeah. Something funny to try at least.

 

[PentaSalia]

Waiting on stage is the best option at low %s, they can't side B back on to stage most of the times unless you're being stupidly aggressive. Predicting their side B and countering with Fair/Dair/upsmash is what you want. If they grab the ledge and try to go around,wait for them to get close,avoid chasing him. Also be aware if they're holding a banana when you send them offstage.

Just standard stuff=/,this MU gives me trouble as well lol.

 

[Exdeath]

Fairing is usually safe when Diddy is off-stage. Once it's out, it's pretty reliable at stopping him from doing anything other than grabbing the ledge. It's necessary in every match-up, but in the case of Diddy, ledge trapping usually decides whether or not you win the match (in my experiences, anyway). I don't usually let Diddy return to the stage without him taking 30%+, even when they're better than me. The reason is that Diddy's options are so small. Dtilt, pivot grabbing, Fair, and Bair (sometimes; Bair is generally not a good idea) are generally my tools. Although Nair/Uair are actually still good options that put Diddy into a bad position after hitting him, the others put Diddy back off of the ledge. Also, don't be too greedy with Dthrow; sometimes it's more important to put Diddy back off of the stage than to go for a tech chase, especially when you're close enough to the stage Diddy can land on the edge of the stage with Side-B. When that happens, you can charge an Fsmash. Time it so that you'll hit Diddy if he Side-Bs or be able to hit Diddy again once he can act again from grabbing the ledge.

When Diddy has a banana, I generally go for trading hits with Up-B. What I mean is that I will put out an obvious Fair in such a way that Diddy will throw the banana (Diddy players in general are very predictable and easy to control, like like in this example), I will get hit by the banana, and then I'll Up-B his attempted follow-up. I'll take damage from the banana, but I'll send him into a juggling position and if he DIed poorly (which the opponent is likely to do when they're Side-Bing with what they believe is a punish) he will be back off-stage again without a banana.

P.S. Learn to catch bananas with Jab/Dtilt when you're grounded -- it really helps.

 

[Splice]

Great stuff Xdeath! Anything on when Diddy is recovering low and also your tools; Bair, Fair, Pivo grab, Dtilt, if you'd care to elaborate on them. Then maybe I can put a Diddy section in the OP.

There is only one Diddy player in my state and he is one of the best players. . . He does much better than me but I can still beat him when I play campy and have good stage control, but I feel when I get him offstage I just don't do enough and he manages to get past me without taking too much damage.

And I'm very bad at stopping low UpB recoveries... >___<