Guide Mr. Fuji's Journal - Moveset Thread - Hiatus

[Karsticles]

Which is probably the reason Mewtwo's teleport can't go through solid objects and bounces you off.

I SD so much on FD stages like Boxing Arena.

 

[Chiroz]

There is absolutely no way it outprioritizes the hitbox, but that guy never actually said it did is what I'm saying lol

So I just tested myself and N-Air outranges both Shiek and Diddy's flip kicks (and Diddy's face **** too).

Basically if Sheik/Diddy is coming in with her Down-B/Side-B the tip of her/his foot gets hit with the N-Air before their hitbox actually touches Mewtwo (since it has a small disjointed hitbox).

So N-Air does beat Sheik's and Diddy's flip kicks and can be used as counter to those moves.

As for ZSS, it trades with her kick, but she deals huge knockback and damage while you deal almost no knockback and 1% damage, so you shouldn't use it against ZSS flip kick unless you can hit her before she activates the kick.

 

[Marigi174]

He said it screws with their flips as a "pro" of the move. If any other move can also screw with the flip then why mention it at all? It's like me starting to say: "You can hit idle characters, jumping characters, running characters", there's really no need to mention it.

I automatically assumed he meant the hitbox, also doesn't Sheik's automatically activate? (unlike ZSS or Diddy) So that means it would be active and he said it screws with Sheik's flip.

At this point I'd like him to clarify what he meant, I will probably test it myself anyways when I have the time .

His NAir is capable of stopping Shiek's flip. It is better at doing so than many other moves for three reasons:

• high priority
• instant startup
• ability to 'carry' foes with Mewtwo

Sorry I can not clarify further as I simply lack the information to do so :/

 

[Chiroz]

His NAir is capable of stopping Shiek's flip. It is better at doing so than many other moves for three reasons:

• high priority
• instant startup
• ability to 'carry' foes with Mewtwo

Sorry I can not clarify further as I simply lack the information to do so :/

Yes I tested myself not a long time ago. The reason it beats the kick is because it's disjointed, the instant startup allows you to "counter" the flip on reactionz

It also beats Diddy's Side-B, both the command grab and the kick.

It doesn't beat ZSS's flip though, it technically doesn't lose to it either, it trades with it, but since N-Air is so much weaker than ZSS flip it does "lose" to it (You shouldn't try to contest ZSS flip kick with N-Air, I think Up-Air is the best option here but Up-Air is slow so you won't be able to contest it on reaction most of the time).

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

No way. I could have sworn i got kicked out of nair once lol. Live and learn I guess.

 

[Marigi174]

No way. I could have sworn i got kicked out of nair once lol. Live and learn I guess.

The hitbox on Shiek's 'flip' only occurs towards the end of its animation. It is very easy to beat it before the hitbox comes out, so it is a very good option for stopping it.

 

[Chiroz]

The hitbox on Shiek's 'flip' only occurs towards the end of its animation. It is very easy to beat it before the hitbox comes out, so it is a very good option for stopping it.

It stops it even after the hitbox is out. At least I was able to beat it twice in a row (after the hitbox was out), I didn't really tested it "extensively" as all I wanted to know is if it was possible to beat it, and it definitely is

Tested around 7-8 times, only twice was the hitbox out, beat it 100% of the time (all 7-8 times including the ones with the hitbox).


Same test goes for Diddy and ZSS.

Tested both the command grab and kick on Diddy, Diddy cannot touch Mewtwo if N-Air is active with either of the Side-B's, I tested many angles and timings and N-Air beats it out always.

As for ZSS, she does beat N-Air (technically they trade, but it's much more beneficial for ZSS) so I wouldn't use it unless you know the ZSS won't activate the hitbox.

 

[Deleted member]

I've recently been quite enjoying the fact that Mewtwo seems to have true aerial options out of Dtilt even at high %.

Dtilt -> Fair/Nair work for low/mid %, and Dtilt -> Uair I believe works from mid % until very high percent (at which point they simply get sent back too far to follow up).

It'd be really nice if RAR Bair would work, I haven't tested, but I feel like it's startup is simply too slow for it to be viable as a true option.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

His NAir is capable of stopping Shiek's flip. It is better at doing so than many other moves for three reasons:

• high priority
• instant startup
• ability to 'carry' foes with Mewtwo

Sorry I can not clarify further as I simply lack the information to do so :/

Nair and high priority in the same sentence doesn't sound right at all. I've noticed that it gets beaten out by pretty much everything so far even when spaced well.

 

[---]

Started the PM to get this thread underway. If you're interested in helping out/joining in on the conversation please let me know. The more mains the merrier.

 

[Chiroz]

Nair and high priority in the same sentence doesn't sound right at all. I've noticed that it gets beaten out by pretty much everything so far even when spaced well.

Well it's a disjointed hitbox (although very slightly disjointed) so if spaced correctly (perfectly basically) it should beat out most non-disjointed hitboxes.

 

[Karsticles]

I can't believe Nair loses to Quick Attack. BS.

 

[---]

Anyone have any basic thoughts about Shadow Ball or Confusion?

So what are some options for following into Confusion and what are our options out of it? Shield to predict the Aerial punish, and punish ourselves with a grab?

 

[Smog Frog]

the safest option is to shield. of course, thats the least rewarding option, but it covers the aerial which is the biggest threat out of confusion. also, if you dont predict an aerial and they dont tech, you get a shadow ball jab reset->whatever you want(you may know this as the "shofu combo") its also an amazing reflector that makes risky to punish and hard to camp with slow moving,space occupying projectiles(its a factor in the , , , , and matchups, in particular )

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I'm not sure about comboing into confusion, but I've had a lot of success following up confusion with up tilt. There are characters that can hit you at the same time as you hit them, but I haven't had any instances where they hit me without taking the up tilt hit.

Also, shadow ball is just amazing all around. Especially using b reverse to recover and being able to kill super early. I love to just sit there at full charge in the animation and shadow ball people to the face when they expect me to block.

 

[Jaguar360]

Anyone have any basic thoughts about Shadow Ball or Confusion?

So what are some options for following into Confusion and what are our options out of it? Shield to predict the Aerial punish, and punish ourselves with a grab?

Someone mentioned Confusion > U-tilt in the Social thread and it definitely works most of the time, especially at lower percents. I can trade with some faster aerials occasionally though. Shielding afterwards is good for those characters, though I think that U-tilt is the best option overall. N-air, F-air and U-air can probably also be used for punishing jumps, but I having used these followups too often. Confusion > Fully charged Shadow Ball also seems good.

Shadow Ball is awesome. Uncharged Shadow Balls barely cause any flinching, but they do their job of spacing decently. FC Shadow Ball is incredibly strong, pretty fast-moving and the recoil in the air can be useful for movement or fake outs into grounded followups. I think the recoil could probably be applied in Doubles. Medium charged Shadow Ball is a solid projectile, though waiting for the full charge is usually better unless the projectile is needed right away.

 

[---]

So which characters should we generally Confusion -> Shield for? Or is it pretty much every character because of Mewtwo's odd frame data?

Yes:

No:

 

[Smog Frog]

i cant think of a character that doesnt have an aerial that's less than 13 frames. which is how many frames you need to safely use an aerial. shielding is the safest option for the entire cast, but there are plenty more rewarding options(disable, dsmash, fsmash, "shofu combo")

 

[---]

That's what I thought. Oh well, just gotta see how well it works at a competitive level and how easy it is to exploit those 5 frames of vulnerability.

 

[Smog Frog]

however, there seems to be some quirks with aerial confusion(can someone lab if luigi is able to nair out before mewtwo can fair out of aerial confusion?)

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone have any basic thoughts about Shadow Ball or Confusion?

So what are some options for following into Confusion and what are our options out of it? Shield to predict the Aerial punish, and punish ourselves with a grab?

Because of the "1 second rule", trying to shield the aerial punish and respond with a grab actually won't work, I've tried it a number of times (where the grab has come out when the opponent is on the ground after Confusion, in range of Mewtwo) and it just doesn't register on the opponent.

I typically shield, and then go for the Jab Infinte since afaik that is Mewtwo's fastest option, if the opponent throws out a laggy aerial I'll go for a tilt though, typically Dtilt since that leads so nicely into Fair, Nair or Uair most of the time.

Shadow Ball is my go to kill option, I end up killing with that off reads/tagging someone offstage more than anything else.

I typically like to just keep the full charge (since it beats almost every other projectile in the game), but I'll occasionally throw out a few at low or mid charge just for some light pressure/annoying spam.

I've been working on trying to go offstage and hit with confusion, using it to just eat all of the momentum away from an opponent as they try to come back to the stage, although the little lift it gives Mewtwo has actually made it a bit tricky since he'll move a little bit before Confusion will completely be able to register.

In terms of going to confusion, I feel like D-tilt or U-tilt would be the best options, particularly the former, since Mewtwo can act so quickly out of them at low percent (a little higher percent if you get the U-tilt sourspot) abd either move tends to lift the opponent but keeps them within range of confusion for a followup.

So maybe something like Dtilt -> SH -> Confusion -> Aerial Stuff?

Of course the fact that the opponent can punish out of Confusion makes it a bit tricky, but it may work depending on what you catch the opponent doing after Dtilt (if their percent is low enough such that their hitstun ends between the Dtilt and Confusion).

Just some thoughts on my end, what are you thinking?

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Anyone have any basic thoughts about Shadow Ball or Confusion?

So what are some options for following into Confusion and what are our options out of it? Shield to predict the Aerial punish, and punish ourselves with a grab?

IMO Shadow Ball is Mewtwo's best move.

No opinion on Confusion. It's alright.

 

[Chiroz]

however, there seems to be some quirks with aerial confusion(can someone lab if luigi is able to nair out before mewtwo can fair out of aerial confusion?)

People can air dodge before Mewtwo can F-Air. Luigi's N-Air is a frame 3 attack. I think Air Dodges actually take longer than (of at least) 3 frames of startup which would mean that yes, Luigi can N-Air before Mewtwo hits with F-Air (Although Mewtwo could space his F-Air to hit through his N-Air).

I actually think that Luigi can even F-Air before Mewtwo can hit his own F-Air, but that needs to be tested.

 

[ORVO5]

So hey guys, recently been going through the roster one by one with Mewtwo. I got to Little Mac and Mewtwo did this weird thing where as soon as Mac tried to do his KO move, I tried to grab him and we both flew across to the other side of the stage. No damage, it's just like we were both pushed by Mario's FLUD.. is that normal?

 

[DrRiceBoy]

So hey guys, recently been going through the roster one by one with Mewtwo. I got to Little Mac and Mewtwo did this weird thing where as soon as Mac tried to do his KO move, I tried to grab him and we both flew across to the other side of the stage. No damage, it's just like we were both pushed by Mario's FLUD.. is that normal?

Yeah, that happens a lot. Mac's KO Punch has a windbox and sometimes if you grab him during the animation that'll happen. Happens with all the other characters too.

 

[ORVO5]

Yeah, that happens a lot. Mac's KO Punch has a windbox and sometimes if you grab him during the animation that'll happen. Happens with all the other characters too.

Oh ok, good to know. Thought it was a potential Mewtwo exploit lol.

 

[Karsticles]

Mewtwo players should sit down and figure out what combinations break shields.

I THINK all of the following work:
Dtilt x2, Shadow Ball
Fair, Shadow Ball
Fsmash, Shadow Ball

Getting a charged Shadow Ball and fishing for shield breaks is becoming something I do more often.

 

[Enoki]

Hey, here's a thought for confusion.
Against opponents with poor recovery, maybe try to use confusion beneath the ledge,? Theoretically, if they've used their double jump then they have three options:
Aerial move which might send them too low to recover (and we can be prepared to tech off the stage)
Airdodge which might send them too low to recover
Eat the fair and face certain death.

Obviously this won't work against someone like marth whose up-b is super fast and has knockback. But I'm thinking against someone like Shulk or Ganon, this could be a highly situational but guaranteed way of gimping?

Forgive me if it turns out confusion gives them their double jump back. I haven't tested that yet.

 

[Spirst]

Hey, here's a thought for confusion.
Against opponents with poor recovery, maybe try to use confusion beneath the ledge,? Theoretically, if they've used their double jump then they have three options:
Aerial move which might send them too low to recover (and we can be prepared to tech off the stage)
Airdodge which might send them too low to recover
Eat the fair and face certain death.

Obviously this won't work against someone like marth whose up-b is super fast and has knockback. But I'm thinking against someone like Shulk or Ganon, this could be a highly situational but guaranteed way of gimping?

Forgive me if it turns out confusion gives them their double jump back. I haven't tested that yet.

Don't know if you tested this since then but Confusion does not refresh their jump.

The problem with this is that Mewtwo is still at a -5 frame disadvantage when Confusion is done in the air and then Fair is a frame 6 move. This leaves quite a large window for them to simply input another Up B before Mewtwo is able to try following up. You can try rising with your DJ and an aerial but Mewtwo's relatively slow rise on his second jump makes following them before they reach the ledge pretty unlikely. Even Ganon can get away. We'd need to look into who has the most exploitable/slow recovery for this to be viable on.

 

[Enoki]

Don't know if you tested this since then but Confusion does not refresh their jump.

The problem with this is that Mewtwo is still at a -5 frame disadvantage when Confusion is done in the air and then Fair is a frame 6 move. This leaves quite a large window for them to simply input another Up B before Mewtwo is able to try following up. You can try rising with your DJ and an aerial but Mewtwo's relatively slow rise on his second jump makes following them before they reach the ledge pretty unlikely. Even Ganon can get away. We'd need to look into who has the most exploitable/slow recovery for this to be viable on.

That seems like a definite issue. maybe it would work against characters with a charge-then-move up b, or characters with no hitbox and slow vertical movement; maybe fox, falco, ness, Duckhunt? If nothing else I think we're put in an advantageous position.

 

[ORVO5]

Hey, here's a thought for confusion.
Against opponents with poor recovery, maybe try to use confusion beneath the ledge,? Theoretically, if they've used their double jump then they have three options:
Aerial move which might send them too low to recover (and we can be prepared to tech off the stage)
Airdodge which might send them too low to recover
Eat the fair and face certain death.

Obviously this won't work against someone like marth whose up-b is super fast and has knockback. But I'm thinking against someone like Shulk or Ganon, this could be a highly situational but guaranteed way of gimping?

Forgive me if it turns out confusion gives them their double jump back. I haven't tested that yet.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, I think it would be more advantageous to spike or stage spike (either BAir or Nair, the latter giving you the option of dragging them down a bit as well) rather than using Confusion. Sadly it's easy go get out of, especially with faster characters who can tech out of it.

 

[---]

Moving this to Confusion/Disable talk. Shadow Ball is pretty straight forward.

I think @ Chiroz has been wanting to share his thoughts on these moves. lol

 

[Chiroz]

Moving this to Confusion/Disable talk. Shadow Ball is pretty straight forward.

I think @ Chiroz has been wanting to share his thoughts on these moves. lol

Yep, I am doing an analysis of both Confusion and Disable in the next couple days.

For now I can say that both the moves have great uses and that I feel both of the moves are severely underrated. I actually think that Disable is one of Mewtwo's best kill moves, I've been using it a lot lately and I've scored quite the good number of kills with it. It's also the move that kills the earliest since it allows you to charge a smash.

I will try writing a really detailed guide of Confusion and at least a detail pros/cons of Disable soon.

 

[FlynnCL]

This might already be common knowledge to some, but I believe Mewtwo's tail does have hurtbubbles attached to them, it's just they're normally disabled and are activated once Mewtwo is in hitstun.

What makes this even worse is that a lot of Mewtwo's knockback animations cause him to spin with his tail stretched outwards. He's a far bigger target than I expected when in hitstun.

 

[Browny]

SWAG COMBO CONFIRMED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-mo8v444bA

 

[---]

This might already be common knowledge to some, but I believe Mewtwo's tail does have hurtbubbles attached to them, it's just they're normally disabled and are activated once Mewtwo is in hitstun.
What makes this even worse is that a lot of Mewtwo's knockback animations cause him to spin with his tail stretched outwards. He's a far bigger target than I expected when in hitstun.

Only the club of Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox. Though that's also where the least amount of damage is dealt.

 

[Reaperfan]

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been talked about or not, but does anyone else notice Shadow Ball doing ridiculous amounts of shield damage? I feel like I've broken more shields with it in these last few days than I have over the entirety of my time playing Smash before this combined.

 

[Chiroz]

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been talked about or not, but does anyone else notice Shadow Ball doing ridiculous amounts of shield damage? I feel like I've broken more shields with it in these last few days than I have over the entirety of my time playing Smash before this combined.

I think Shields have like 40% health, right? (Don't quote me on that). Shadow Ball does 26% damage which is like 3/5th of the shield.

 

[Supersmashbrothers.]

Nayru's love > Confusion!?

I was playing Final Destination against a friend. I was Mewtwo and he was Zelda.

Here's how it went:
Fully charged Shadow Ball shot
Nayru's love > Confusion > Nayru's Love and then, when I used Confusion again, it did not reflect. Instead I was brutally destroyed. I also am pretty sure I had 0% damage.

 

[Deleted member]

Nayru's love > Confusion!?

I was playing Final Destination against a friend. I was Mewtwo and he was Zelda.

Here's how it went:
Fully charged Shadow Ball shot
Nayru's love > Confusion > Nayru's Love and then, when I used Confusion again, it did not reflect. Instead I was brutally destroyed. I also am pretty sure I had 0% damage.

I believe that is a natural progression with reflected projectiles in general.

I.E. a projectile will be reflected 3 times and then negate the 4th reflector or something.

I've seen this kind of thing also happen with Palutena's Reflect so I think it applies generally and not just to Nayru's Love.