Guide Mr. Fuji's Journal - Moveset Thread - Hiatus

[Supersmashbrothers.]

I believe that is a natural progression with reflected projectiles in general.

I.E. a projectile will be reflected 3 times and then negate the 4th reflector or something.

I've seen this kind of thing also happen with Palutena's Reflect so I think it applies generally and not just to Nayru's Love.

But it didn't work like that against Dark Pit.

 

[Deleted member]

But it didn't work like that against Dark Pit.

As in Mewtwo could reflect it a 4th time?

Pit and Dark Pit's reflectors are actually breakable (I believe by projectiles), while Zelda's and Palutena's etc aren't.

So that could be why it worked, have you tested it on the spacies?

 

[Chiroz]

But it didn't work like that against Dark Pit.

Reflectors have a max damage they can reflect. On a fully charged Shadow Ball it takes 3 reflects to reach that damage. On a non-charged SB it probably takes like 6 or 7 reflects.

 

[Marigi174]

I believe that is a natural progression with reflected projectiles in general.

I.E. a projectile will be reflected 3 times and then negate the 4th reflector or something.

I've seen this kind of thing also happen with Palutena's Reflect so I think it applies generally and not just to Nayru's Love.

This was tested with Villager's bowling ball and Ness' bat. It was reflected three times and on the fourth the bowling ball vanished and Ness had about five seconds worth of recoil.

 

[Tito Maas]

Can you use disable on Ness while he's locked in PK Thunder? I know you have to be facing the character to work, but his back isn't turned to you in that situation...

 

[Chiroz]

Can you use disable on Ness while he's locked in PK Thunder? I know you have to be facing the character to work, but his back isn't turned to you in that situation...

You can but in the air it will only knock him back, he can restart PK Thunder almost immediately. On the ground it's probably the best punish since you can follow up with whatever else you want.

 

[Browny]

I've been spamming confusion an awful lot lately vs people and... I'm convinced its one of the best moves in the game.

Seriously compare it to other reflectors that just reflect

As a mid-air 3rd jump momentum shifter its a little overpowered, no one else in the cast can just flip around and stall so easily except marth/lucina but theirs doesnt give a huge bounce.
As a command grab the move is ridiculous and can beat all but the most disjointed attacks like shulk max range fsmash
Does up to 10% WTF

Its like some super buff hybrid of Bite and Falcos reflector

Its sheer utility is just stupid, its up there with ZSS' down b in terms of how it can work its way into and out of so many situations its a truly amazing option mewtwo has.

---

By the way when I do my Shadow Ball Guide (still getting lots of footage) I'll detail the exact distances you can fire shadow ball on such that if the enemy reflects it, you can reflect it back and they cant dodge it or reflect it back a second time. Basically theres a safe range where you can jump out of the way of a double reflected one and the range where the enemy cant dodge it. If you get too close though, youre gonna cop the triple reflected one.

Learn those distances, it can save your life (and end theirs)

 

[Marigi174]

To add to Browny's point, Confusion is a great way to ensure a safe getup if your opponent is near the ledge and it also leads into a large number of combos.

 

[---]

As in Mewtwo could reflect it a 4th time?

Pit and Dark Pit's reflectors are actually breakable (I believe by projectiles), while Zelda's and Palutena's etc aren't.

So that could be why it worked, have you tested it on the spacies?

I've broken Palutena's reflector before. It's quite hilarious as Shadow Ball turns around mid air.

By the way when I do my Shadow Ball Guide (still getting lots of footage) I'll detail the exact distances you can fire shadow ball on such that if the enemy reflects it, you can reflect it back and they cant dodge it or reflect it back a second time. Basically theres a safe range where you can jump out of the way of a double reflected one and the range where the enemy cant dodge it. If you get too close though, youre gonna cop the triple reflected one.

Learn those distances, it can save your life (and end theirs)

If you'd like to provide a quick summary of the move for the community guide that would be great.

 

[Browny]

Quick is not in my vocabulary, comprehensive only.

 

[---]

Quick is not in my vocabulary, comprehensive only.

Mostly a figure of speech. Basically 2-3 paragraphs of it's uses/pros & cons/strategy, doesn't have to done immediately or anything, just something that's easy to read but also somewhat in-depth for the base needs of mains.

If you plan on working on a thread solely for that move anyway, it'd be a great help. Those who've made threads detailing specific moves in the MM board have made great summaries for the board guide:

Spoiler

Mega Man’s Mega Buster is by far the most interesting and at times incredibly in-depth tool that he has in his move set. Instead of being a jab, it is also his N-Air (Neutral Air) and his F-Tilt (Forward Tilt). By first impression, you could say that he is a more controlled Falco with his lasers from previous games. However, Mega Man’s Mega Buster is much more versatile than either iteration of Falco’s neutral B. While Melee Falco’s laser was a vital part in approaching and Brawl’s being a pivotal way to keep enemies away, Mega Man is able to play both offensively and defensively with his buster and this allows him more opportunity to fully take advantage of his preferred range.
You would think that these three moves are all the same, but they are quite different and often are a big deal in regards to the scenario that you are in.

The full duration of F-Tilt can keep opponents at a full Jab Lock while approaching. This allows him to follow up with a Jab Lock more efficiently than others as well and can lead into huge punishes and even kills with U-Tilt and D-Smash.
The strongest part of his Buster will be the actual tip of the cannon (Sweet Spot). This will be the only part where Bowser will receive stun of any kind. While mini hit stun will be dealt with each pellet fired, he will provide stun similar to a normal jab at the tip of the Mega Buster. Applying this with N-Air will provide you with actual knock back that can reach as far as his back leg. This makes retreating N-Air a really strong option when looking to retreat or play it safe in the neutral game. This move can also gimp really well but considering how much you have to commit yourself, but it is not as practical as F-Air (Forward Air) or B-Air (Back Air).
Just like every move Mega Man has, he has to commit a lot when using Jab or even F-Air. This allows characters like Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu and Fox to kite really efficiently and punish accordingly. However, this is where the uniqueness of his Jab comes into play. Being slippery and even short hop retreating can really keep those pesky characters at bay. Zucco has released an excellent video demonstrating how to "short hop pellet" efficient.

Leaf Shield shuts down a lot of Mega Man's options, leaving him with only the ability to walk, dash, run, jump, shield, dodge, roll, air dodge, grab, pummel, throw, grab items, throw items, and z-drop items. (Any other attack input will result in Mega Man tossing the Leaf Shield.) In exchange, he gets four hitboxes that hover around him, effectively allowing him to attack during shield and invincibility frames.

This move works well with Power Shield approaches and Shield Grabbing, as the leaves can help you avoid hitstun from your opponent's attacks and will punish their attempts to Dodge or Shield Grab. If you land a grab, be sure to Pummel as the leaves will add damage.
The Leaf Shield toss can combo into a Dash Grab or Spark Shock when used on stage, and into a Double Jumped Flame Sword or Lemons when used off stage. If you toss it while jumping it will occasionally hit twice for 6% damage total.
Because items can still be used when Leaf Shield is up, Leaf Shield has nice synergy with Metal Blade. Keep in mind that when you have a Metal Blade in hand, the A Button will toss the Metal Blade and the B button will toss the Leaf Shield, so use this for mix-ups.
Other uses for Leaf Shield include setting up Footstool gimps, quickly switching your air momentum using B-reversing or Wave Bouncing, pressuring ledge recoveries (as the leaves rotate through the stage, and allow you to effectively ledge trump and attack simultaneously), and baiting and punishing Counter moves.

With the fire and electric elements being covered in Mega Man's standard moveset, Ice Man provides the chill in this custom side special. True to its game, however, Ice Slasher is not the fastest projectile and travels strictly horizontally.

This unique physical projectile either freezes the opponent or does as much hit-stun/knockback as a pellet. This is dependent on your opponents' % and weight (16-23% is first freeze% for the lightest vs heaviest). The amount of time your opponent is frozen is dependent on their %. When Ice Slasher freezes the opponent, it launches them up in the air, ripe for juggling or a quick aerial if they don't mash out quick enough. More importantly, you gain stage control. This projectile, however, is slower, has less range, and a bit more activation and end lag than the default side-B, Crash Bomb.

**It should be noted that for both Ice Slasher and Danger Wrap that there is a landing glitch that summons two projectiles at the near same time (about a 1 frame difference between the two). The timing on this is VERY specific and only doubles the damage dealt. It shouldn't be purposely attempted in a match but it's awesome when it happens. This has been shown to work in both versions of the game.

 

[..uuuuu.....]

I've been spamming confusion an awful lot lately vs people and... I'm convinced its one of the best moves in the game.

Seriously compare it to other reflectors that just reflect

As a mid-air 3rd jump momentum shifter its a little overpowered, no one else in the cast can just flip around and stall so easily except marth/lucina but theirs doesnt give a huge bounce.
As a command grab the move is ridiculous and can beat all but the most disjointed attacks like shulk max range fsmash
Does up to 10% WTF

Its like some super buff hybrid of Bite and Falcos reflector

Its sheer utility is just stupid, its up there with ZSS' down b in terms of how it can work its way into and out of so many situations its a truly amazing option mewtwo has.

---

By the way when I do my Shadow Ball Guide (still getting lots of footage) I'll detail the exact distances you can fire shadow ball on such that if the enemy reflects it, you can reflect it back and they cant dodge it or reflect it back a second time. Basically theres a safe range where you can jump out of the way of a double reflected one and the range where the enemy cant dodge it. If you get too close though, youre gonna cop the triple reflected one.

Learn those distances, it can save your life (and end theirs)

plz stop confusion doesn't need a nerf considering how doable is the opposite and can only be used in certain situations also teleport does no damage and has considerable lag

 

[Browny]

I want to go a little deeper on the points I brought up earlier. I just watched Trelas winners finals match (4 matches) where he won 3-1 in a pretty big tournament and I looked at every single attack he did (which was close enough to hit) and saw how he fared, it shows how useful Mewtwos attacks are and highlights some issues.

The most important numbers there are the hit % and the punish %. Having a high hit % and a low punish % is what makes attacks very useful and effective.

Its no surprise to see dtilt with a gigantic 80% to 5% hit to punish ratio as easily mewtwos most reliable attack. But take a look at dash attack, it has an even HIGHER ratio than dtilt. Trela uses it so well and it is so safe that it is basically free damage whenever he uses it and with literally ONE punish across 4 matches, using it safely is very possible.

Shadowball of course, has a 100% positive rating since he uses it from a safe distance and jab was cancelled into dtilt so the numbers arent accurate there.

Now look at the problem attacks in red. Ftilt and fsmash receive a complete fail rating as attacks, not a single hit and punished often. The way to look at this, is imagine if Trela used a dtilt or dsmash in every instance of going for those other attacks. Ftilt and fsmash are horribly unsafe and slow, using them is a liability. Really, not a single hit in 4 games while getting punished.

The reason why I posted this though is to look at fair and bair. People said I was very wrong for ranking fair and bair so low, but look at how it worked for trela. bair was an even split in the amount of times he hit the enemy vs him getting hit, its kind of a neutral situation. But fair is awful. Punished 15 times for using the attack and only hitting 9.

If you are using an attack which is resulting in you getting hit more than the enemy, its time to stop using that attack. I think in every situation where he tried to fair he would have been better falling into a uair or just trying to camp the landing with utilt, dash attack or shadow ball.

I hope people can see what I'm getting at here. You should maximise your use of attacks that are very likely to hit, and minimise the use of attacks that get you punished.

Basically, more jab, dtilt, shadow ball and dash attack with less fair, bair, fsmash and ftilt.

 

[Chiroz]

I want to go a little deeper on the points I brought up earlier. I just watched Trelas winners finals match (4 matches) where he won 3-1 in a pretty big tournament and I looked at every single attack he did (which was close enough to hit) and saw how he fared, it shows how useful Mewtwos attacks are and highlights some issues.

The most important numbers there are the hit % and the punish %. Having a high hit % and a low punish % is what makes attacks very useful and effective.

Its no surprise to see dtilt with a gigantic 80% to 5% hit to punish ratio as easily mewtwos most reliable attack. But take a look at dash attack, it has an even HIGHER ratio than dtilt. Trela uses it so well and it is so safe that it is basically free damage whenever he uses it and with literally ONE punish across 4 matches, using it safely is very possible.

Shadowball of course, has a 100% positive rating since he uses it from a safe distance and jab was cancelled into dtilt so the numbers arent accurate there.

Now look at the problem attacks in red. Ftilt and fsmash receive a complete fail rating as attacks, not a single hit and punished often. The way to look at this, is imagine if Trela used a dtilt or dsmash in every instance of going for those other attacks. Ftilt and fsmash are horribly unsafe and slow, using them is a liability. Really, not a single hit in 4 games while getting punished.

The reason why I posted this though is to look at fair and bair. People said I was very wrong for ranking fair and bair so low, but look at how it worked for trela. bair was an even split in the amount of times he hit the enemy vs him getting hit, its kind of a neutral situation. But fair is awful. Punished 15 times for using the attack and only hitting 9.

If you are using an attack which is resulting in you getting hit more than the enemy, its time to stop using that attack. I think in every situation where he tried to fair he would have been better falling into a uair or just trying to camp the landing with utilt, dash attack or shadow ball.

I hope people can see what I'm getting at here. You should maximise your use of attacks that are very likely to hit, and minimise the use of attacks that get you punished.

Basically, more jab, dtilt, shadow ball and dash attack with less fair, bair, fsmash and ftilt.

I haven't even watched the whole video and with just 2 minutes watched I can tell how biased you are.

I saw 2 jabs land on shield and 2 F-Smashes land on shield, yet you have F-Smash as 0% accuracy and Jab as 100% accuracy. Seems legit.



The fact that the person you are taking into consideration to make a "guide" out of ALSO thinks F-Air is the safest move to perform in neutral should tell you something, no? I mean look at how many times he threw it out, he obviously thinks it's good. Normally the moves that MOST miss are the ones you KNOW are safe and don't matter if they miss or not. Also being punished by Sheik's F-Air which does 4% is **** and Trella probably doesn't care about getting "punished" by that. I will gladly take a look at the video and check it out myself.



I am ONLY doing F-Air and Dash Attack and I am ONLY up to game 2 out of 4 games and he's already missed Dash Attack 9 times and you have it as 5 for all 4 games. You should just take that list away man.



I will actually do the table myself just to see how wrong your table is.

 

[Chiroz]

I want to go a little deeper on the points I brought up earlier. I just watched Trelas winners finals match (4 matches) where he won 3-1 in a pretty big tournament and I looked at every single attack he did (which was close enough to hit) and saw how he fared, it shows how useful Mewtwos attacks are and highlights some issues.

The most important numbers there are the hit % and the punish %. Having a high hit % and a low punish % is what makes attacks very useful and effective.

Its no surprise to see dtilt with a gigantic 80% to 5% hit to punish ratio as easily mewtwos most reliable attack. But take a look at dash attack, it has an even HIGHER ratio than dtilt. Trela uses it so well and it is so safe that it is basically free damage whenever he uses it and with literally ONE punish across 4 matches, using it safely is very possible.

Shadowball of course, has a 100% positive rating since he uses it from a safe distance and jab was cancelled into dtilt so the numbers arent accurate there.

Now look at the problem attacks in red. Ftilt and fsmash receive a complete fail rating as attacks, not a single hit and punished often. The way to look at this, is imagine if Trela used a dtilt or dsmash in every instance of going for those other attacks. Ftilt and fsmash are horribly unsafe and slow, using them is a liability. Really, not a single hit in 4 games while getting punished.

The reason why I posted this though is to look at fair and bair. People said I was very wrong for ranking fair and bair so low, but look at how it worked for trela. bair was an even split in the amount of times he hit the enemy vs him getting hit, its kind of a neutral situation. But fair is awful. Punished 15 times for using the attack and only hitting 9.

If you are using an attack which is resulting in you getting hit more than the enemy, its time to stop using that attack. I think in every situation where he tried to fair he would have been better falling into a uair or just trying to camp the landing with utilt, dash attack or shadow ball.

I hope people can see what I'm getting at here. You should maximise your use of attacks that are very likely to hit, and minimise the use of attacks that get you punished.

Basically, more jab, dtilt, shadow ball and dash attack with less fair, bair, fsmash and ftilt.

I just redid your table since it was completely wrong and biased.

Before anyone reads the results here are some keynotes:

1-) I did not count any attack that was obviously NOT intended to hit UNLESS it was punished. That means that any attack thrown randomly just for showing off or due to "nerves" was not taken into account UNLESS the attack was punished.

2-) I could and probably did miss some Neutral B's. I accounted for all of the ones that landed but there might have been some that missed that I just didn't see at the time.

3-) Charging of Neutral-B was NOT taken into account anywhere, not even when punished, which it was. So the numbers in "Neutral-B" category do not reflect any punishment from a charge.

4-) Any Side-B used STRICTLY for recovery is NOT accounted UNLESS it was punished. So, like stated in rule number 1, if the Side-B was obviously not meant to come close to hitting it will not be counted unless it was punished by the opponent.

5-) Anything that HITS, even if it only hits one of the attacks (N-Air or Multi-Jab) or even if it hits the opponent's shield was counted as a hit. Miss is only counted if the attack whiffed completely, was dodged or out-prioritized/cancelled.

6-) I watched the video around 2-3 times, one of the times at 1/4th speed, so I am pretty certain that all numbers I have are accurate BUT I might have missed some attacks which might mean I am missing some data, but I am sure that I do not have extra data on any field.

7-) Some of the attacks are not readily visible to the eye unless paying very close attention. Sometimes he goes for a smash that gets punished before the smash even starts but watching at 1/4th speed you can clearly see the sparkle AND the animation of which smash is coming out.

8-) Otherwise any attack MEANT to hit the opponent was counted even if it missed horribly by a long margin. Otherwise I would be pick and choosing whatever I like and that's not the way an analysis should be done.





Here are the results:

Pivot/Dash-Grab
Total: 19
Hit: 8
Miss: 11
Accuracy: 42%
Punished: 5
Danger: 26%


Standing/Shield Grab
Total: 31
Hit: 17
Miss: 14
Accuracy: 55%
Punished: 7
Danger: 23%


Jab 1:
Total: 10
Hit: 6
Miss: 4
Accuracy: 60%
Punished: 3
Danger: 30%


Multi-Jab
Total: 3
Hit: 2
Miss: 1
Accuracy: 66%
Punished: 1
Danger: 33%


U-Tilt
Total: 6
Hit: 3
Miss: 3
Accuracy: 50%
Punished: 0
Danger: 0%


F-Tilt
Total: 12
Hit: 1
Miss: 11
Accuracy: 8%
Punished: 3
Danger: 25%


B-Air
Total: 36
Hit: 12
Miss: 24
Accuracy: 33%
Punished: 7
Danger: 19%


D-Air
Total: 13
Hit: 1
Miss: 12
Accuracy: 8%
Punished: 2
Danger: 15%


Neutral-B
Total: 27
Hit: 14
Miss: 13
Accuracy: 52%
Punished: 3
Danger: 11%


Side-B
Total: 14
Hit: 3
Miss: 11
Accuracy: 21%
Punished: 6
Danger: 43%


Down-B
Total: 15
Hit: 1 (Aerial)
Miss: 14
Accuracy: 7%
Punished: 8
Danger: 53%


U-Smash
Total: 8
Hit: 1
Miss: 7
Accuracy: 13%
Punished: 5
Danger: 63%


D-Smash
Total: 7
Hit: 3
Miss: 4
Accuracy: 43%
Punished: 2
Danger: 57%


F-Smash
Total: 6
Hit: 2
Miss: 4
Accuracy: 33%
Punished: 5
Danger: 83%






The following attacks have been separated by me so I can make notes on them!

D-Tilt
Total: 50
Hit: 29
Miss: 21
Accuracy: 58%
Punished: 6
Danger: 12%

Note: 1 of the punished D-Tilts was actually a "nerves" input and wasn't meant to be an attack, he was punished with some needles which is why I included it. Another of of the punished D-Tilts was actually a mis-input on Trella's part as he performed the D-Tilt backwards, if he had performed it towards the correct side then he would have actually hit instead of being punished, this is why I would like to do a recalculation with the following!

Total: 49
Hit: 30
Miss: 19
Accuracy: 61%
Punished: 4
Danger: 8%

I think this reflects the true nature of D-Tilt much better and with more accurate figures!




U-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 18
Miss: 15
Accuracy: 55%
Punished: 2
Danger: 6%

Note: U-Air has extremely inflated values because Trella likes to follow up all of his D-Tilts with U-Air which is a TRUE COMBO. Most Mewtwo players I know instead like to follow D-Tilt with F-Air (some like to follow up with U-Tilt->N-Air), but Trella likes to try and perform U-Air strings at which he was only succesful about 2 times through all 4 games. Nevertheless, the fact that he ALWAYS goes for U-Air after D-Tilt inflates the "accuracy" and the "safety" of the move since it's a true combo.




N-Air
Total: 31
Hit: 19
Uncompleted (Landed before last hit): 11
Completed (Hit with last hit): 8
Miss: 12
Accuracy: 61%
Punished: 22
Punished LANDING BEFORE LAST HIT: 6
Punished WHILE BEING HIT: 6
Danger: 71%
Danger of Landing Before Last Hit: 55%
Danger FOR LANDING the Attack: 63%
Follow Ups From Landing Before Last Hit: 2
Follow Up From Landing Before Last Hit: 6%

Note: This is a really interesting one. Many people have been clamoring N-Air as the godsend of Mewtwo's kit. It's also a move I see spammed by Mewtwo's very much. Even @ Browny has it as his TOP ONE move in his list. Yet look at that. He was punished almost every single time he missed it. Even when LANGING the attack Trella STILL got punished 63% of the time.

Basically the move has an 71% punish ratio on miss and an 63% punish ratio on HIT. I understand that there are better ways to use the move than how Trella was using it, but even then the ratios are way too horrible.

It's good to note that the when "punished" on hit the move normally does 1-4% so you almost ALWAYS end up losing that trade.




Dash Attack
Total: 32
Hit: 15
Miss: 17
Accuracy: 47%
Punished: 3
Punished %: 10%

Note: While @ Browny wants to make this move seem much better than it truly is, it is imperative to take in mind that Trella was using Dash Attack as a tech chase read from D-Throw. This means that these numbers, just like U-Air numbers are inflated. The thing is Trella could have been using Kara-Forward Smash, Dash Down-B or JC U-Smash instead of Dash Attack and they would have also connected every single time as it was a tech chase. There was nothing exactly explicit about Dash Attacks' own attributes outside of this chase, just the fact that Trella was choosing Dash Attack as his option in that specific scenario.

About a little less than half of the "hits" were actually tech chases, which would mean that the actual TRUE dash attack hits are around the 8-10. Let's do a pass with 9 (just to make it fair).

Total: 26
Hit: 9
Miss: 17
Accuracy: 35%
Punished: 3
Danger: 12%

These numbers better reflect the nature of using Dash Attack outside of an assured Tech Chase, which is what we should be evaluating the move with, instead of inflated numbers.








And for the last one, the "controversial" on for @ Browny .

F-Air
Total: 47
Hit: 14
Miss: 33
Accuracy: 30%
Punished: 14
Danger: 30%

Note: Now here's the thing, I took note of EVERY single punishment he got for performing F-Air and I noticed that some of the punishments were actually NOT punishments as Trella was already out of lag and had ENOUGH frames to perform another F-Air, an N-Air, land, shield or air dodge. There were also several times when Trella threw an F-Air at random for NO reason, I labeled those as "Not Neutral" as the value me and the other members of the board are putting on F-Air is how safe it is to space in neutral, we are not advocating that you spam the move everytime you jump, just that you use it correctly. You can check the video yourself, I was very fair with what was considered as performing it to attack and what wasn't, if the attack was performed randomly for no reason then that will be labeled as such.

Here are my notes for every single punish:

1. Performed the F-Air while completely out of range (was at the blastzone) and was out of lag by the time he was punished with a Bouncing Fish, could have easily air dodged, he was just surprised.
2. Grab->D-Throw Possible Follow Up. This was a real punish, no way to evade it.
3. F-Air. Real Punish. He missed the attack itself (it's Trella's fault for miscalculating his second jump speed, he could have landed the F-Air)
4. Was already out of the lag of the attack, could have dodged, don't know why he didn't pretty obvious when Sheik short hopped
5. B-Air. Real Punish. He missed the attack itself (again Trella's fault for miscalculating, he could have landed it if he has timed his jump correctly)
6. Grab->B-Throw into F-Air. Death. Real Punish
7. Threw a completely random F-Air at nothing, Sheik was behind him. Real Punish. - Not Neutral
8. He went into Sheik's Up-B in order to hit with F-Air and missed - Not Neutral
9. F-Air. Real Punish
10.He was out of lag AND he had already landed, he could have shielded, dodged, rolled or anything, he just didn't.
11, 12.N-Air. Real Punish
13. B-Air. He got out of lag before Sheik, he could have N-Aired or U-Aired, or he could have also DIed away from her beforehand.
14. Real Punish

First, number 3 and 5 where MISTIMINGS on punishments by Trella. If he has timed his momentum correctly he would have landed both F-Airs, but for FAIRNESS sake I will count both of those towards the end result (even though it should have been a hit instead of a miss + punish).

Moving forward, number 1, 4, 10 and 13 were all NOT punishes. In all 4 of those cases Trella was already out of lag and could have acted with an air dodge or something similar. He didn't because he either thought he didn't need it or didn't react fast enough. Since he was not in end lag this will not be counted as "punishment".

Number 7 and 8 were 2 completely random F-Airs. Trella F-Aired in front of him while "drifting" away from Sheik who was behind him. I suspect he wanted to B-Air and not F-Air, but the F-Air was obviously going to miss since Sheik was behind him.

That's a total of 6 (should be 8 but whatever) occasions where the punishments should not be taken into account (with 2 of the F-Airs being completely random), that leads us to a total of:

Total: 45
Hit: 14
Miss: 31
Accuracy: 31%
Punished: 8
Danger: 18%

These numbers better reflect the nature of the move we are trying to analyze.





According to the previous analysis that was done, we shouldn't be using Jabs or Grabs almost at all since they have a horrible hit-punish ratio. N-Air, Side-B and Down-B or any of our smashes should never be used with those HORRENDOUS ratios, according to his rules, since those moves ALWAYS end up getting punished. Neutral-B, D-Tilt, U-Air, U-Tilt, F-Air and Dash Attack is where it's at apparently and it's the only thing that should be used since it's the only attacks with decent enough ratios to guarantee not losing a match.




According to me though these ratios are meaningless.

D-Tilt, Neutral-B, Jab and Grabs (Throws really, our grab is actually very crappy) are godlike and is your bread and butter that you should be using for everything. F-Air, B-Air, Side-B and U-Air are our combo moves and it's what you should be using all the time. N-Air and Dash Attack are good for mix ups every now and then. Down-B or Smashes should be used on reads or frame traps. U-Tilt and D-Air have niche utility but are both AWESOME moves at what they are meant to do.

I agree that F-Tilt is mostly useless.




TL;DR:

Browny's table was all wrong, it did not have correct values of what happened in the match. The correct values do not support his theory and instead make it look like Jab and Grab are horrible choices for Mewtwo with N-Air and Mewtwo's Smashes being the worst attacks ever to be in Smash.

This is in no way an analysis that should be done to "evaluate" a move's viability and this was an exercise to prove just how wrong this "analysis" was.

Even though I do not believe this to be a valid analysis of an attacks viability, it is still VERY interesting to see N-Air's value and just how horrible it fared in the match. more than 70% of the times Trella performed an N-Air he ended up losing a trade (normally 1% damage for around 6-12%) and being edge guarded right after.

Also for those of you who thought N-Air had legit follow-ups, you can clearly see Sheik turn around and jab Mewtwo before Mewtwo can grab Sheik out of a land cancelled N-Air, which makes it an 100% fact that Mewtwo does not have any guaranteed follow ups from N-Air, at least not from what we know (there might be some very specific scenario we do not know of yet, like landing during an specific hit).

 

[Browny]

I made that list in my first viewing of the video, I was going blind I didnt know what to expect, I did it to see myself. In fact I have been watching a lot of logics mewtwo and the playstyles are quite different with logic using, and landing, A LOT of usmashes and his bair hits way more often than trela does. Honestly I didnt do this to push some agenda, I just wanted to point out how much 'mileage' trela got from dtilt and dash attack while his overuuse of fair and bair cost him a lot.

I only counted attacks that were INTENDED to hit. Throwing out attacks all day long and missing by 2 characters lengths is not a safe move, it means you spaced it wrong. I only counted attacks that hit, or were near misses. missing an attack because of horrible spacing is not a flaw of the attack, its a flaw of the player.

I did NOT include shielded or perfect shielded attacks, since they are like a neutral reset half the time, its better to just ignore them altogether.

Regarding getting punished for nair, its not so simple. Sometimes him landing the nair allowed him to stop a fair/bair/nair and then got punished with a jab or something. Like shielding its an even split. if to me it was clear he was going to cop a harder punish but chose to trade a nair for a jab instead, I didnt count it as a punish OR a hit.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ftilt may be useless in terms of what you get out of it (edgeguarding and late kills aside), but it can be pivoted like
all ftilts and is relatively safe with good spacing so it's still an okay defensive move.

For nair, of course with larger characters you stand better chances of getting clean hits, as does moving up towards
your opponent when you do it. Under no circumstances should you expect to get followups from it on grounded opponents
so you should generally retreat if using nair defensively. That said, a glancing blow can be quite effective against poor
recoveries... The best niche of nair in juggling is anticipating airdodges.

 

[Chiroz]

I made that list in my first viewing of the video, I was going blind I didnt know what to expect, I did it to see myself. In fact I have been watching a lot of logics mewtwo and the playstyles are quite different with logic using, and landing, A LOT of usmashes and his bair hits way more often than trela does. Honestly I didnt do this to push some agenda, I just wanted to point out how much 'mileage' trela got from dtilt and dash attack while his overuuse of fair and bair cost him a lot.

I only counted attacks that were INTENDED to hit. Throwing out attacks all day long and missing by 2 characters lengths is not a safe move, it means you spaced it wrong. I only counted attacks that hit, or were near misses. missing an attack because of horrible spacing is not a flaw of the attack, its a flaw of the player.

I did NOT include shielded or perfect shielded attacks, since they are like a neutral reset half the time, its better to just ignore them altogether.

Regarding getting punished for nair, its not so simple. Sometimes him landing the nair allowed him to stop a fair/bair/nair and then got punished with a jab or something. Like shielding its an even split. if to me it was clear he was going to cop a harder punish but chose to trade a nair for a jab instead, I didnt count it as a punish OR a hit.

No, your list was wrong altogether. Just in the first match he is punished twice for jabs that were missed near the opponent and you did not count those.

You also have much less punishes for Dash Attack than what really happened, even if you completely ignore all the times he went for a Dash Attack read at the edge of a platform and missed because Sheik didn't jump. You also failed to clarify that he uses Dash Attack for Down-Throw tech chases instead of other much better alternative, it inflates dash attack "stats", but Dash Attack is not the optimal attack in that scenario (In the same way, Trella likes to use U-Air after D-Tilt at all times, intead of F-Air. Maybe it's a matchup thing against Sheik since Sheik has a hard time landing but F-Air is normally better due to more damage and edgeguarding possibilities).

I only counted attacks meant to hit too, but if Trella does a Double Jump B-Air expecting Sheik to jump and Sheik just fast falls then I will count it as a miss, otherwise if I don't obviously the slow, circumstancial attacks will have extremely inflated values as you will only count those when they hit.

As for counting shield or not, sometimes landing an attack on a shield gets punished, like a dash attack or an N-Air but guess what F-Air does not get punished when you land it on shield, which is one of the reasons it's good for spacing which is why in order to do an analysis of which move to use on neutral you should obviously count hits on shield.



As for the N-Air part, Sheik's jab combo deals more damage than any of her aerials (except maybe U-Air). Trella also never stops a combo with N-Air that I can remember and about half of the punishes out of N-Air are actually grabs which leads into aerials anyways.

If you watch closely the only times N-Air actually does anything useful in the match is when he surprises Sheik with one AND hits with the while move. Whenever he does it predictably Sheik is able to DI slightly and punish with an N-Air herself and about 70% of the time Trella lands while in N-Air he gets grabbed or jabbed right as they both land.

I get that there are certain ways to approach with N-Air that are safe (like a Falco approaches with N-Air or a Mario with D-Air), I use them myself and Trella wasn't using N-Air that safely but honestly the fact that Sheik was just punishing his hit N-Airs is what I was saying from the beginning.

I honestly don't think N-Air should ever be used as a "setup" because it leaves Mewtwo at a worse position that the opponent. Once the opponent understands the move you will almost always get punished if you try to use it like that. I think N-Air is supposed to be used for mix ups in approaches, as an anti-air and for gimps outside the stage mostly. But the go-to option should mostly be F-Air.

That said, it has less uses than F-Air, slower startup, smaller hitbox, greater endlag, less damage and less knockback. The one thing going for it is the lingering hitbox which allows for many situations such as catching an airdodge or dragging your opponent downwards offstage. But why do you consider it better than F-Air for the neutral game?

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the reasons nair gets used more than it should is either a) Melee players who still haven't shaken the
habit of nair being the go-to aerial for safe damage outside of fair juggles, or b) the long duration making it relatively
easy to get hits, even small ones, causing people to go for it due to instant gratification (and possibly the general coolness
of the move).

The new hitbox placement and knockback angle of fair makes it more distinct from nair in utility, and much more
useful overall instead of just a strict combo and juggling tool. Nair, even in Melee where it outdamaged his other aerials
by a margin, isn't about maximizing damage from juggles or setting up things but rather getting easier hits in ambiguous
situations.

 

[Browny]

As for counting shield or not, sometimes landing an attack on a shield gets punished, like a dash attack or an N-Air but guess what F-Air does not get punished when you land it on shield, which is one of the reasons it's good for spacing which is why in order to do an analysis of which move to use on neutral you should obviously count hits on shield.

Im going to focus on this part. We had different methods for determining what counts as a hit or not, and using dash attack as a tech chase option should count as a hit because its actually really damn good at it with the long lasting disjointed box, much better than any other option for catching people as they land. He used it almost entirely in situations where it could not be avoided due to catching landing lag or some other type of lag. Im not quite sure why you keep going on about nair though, I dont think I even mentioned nair once in my original post, I was focusing on other attacks.

Compare M2's fair to marths fair when spaced on on shield. They are both safe on block, both good for spacing but they key difference is Marths fair hits, and hits often. Trela managed 9 hits in 4 matches and these are 3 stock games, so thats less than 1 fair per stock on average. Trelas a very good player, but sheiks mobility and fairs small hitbox made it very difficult for him to hit with.

Thats... really bad, for a supposedly good attack. Look at any other character and see how many times in a match they will land a hit with their good moves, its a lot more than that.

If you are landing a move that is safe on shield, yet at the same time are barely landing it at all and keep getting hit for trying it when not vs a shield, it might be better to just something else.

 

[meleebrawler]

...I'm starting to think you two are putting too much into the statistics of ONE GAME.

Yes Marth's fair is easier to hit, but it doesn't kill like Mewtwo's does even when tippered. @ Browny , you probably
do have a point about shadow claw not being that great at spacing since it can definitely be punished if used recklessly
and it has a small hit area, but the sheer speed of startup and power is enough to get people to respect Mewtwo when
facing him in the air. One whiffed aerial or mistimed air dodge can easily spell doom. I can't count how many close games
I've clutched out with it. That's the thing with fast startup moves; they may be tricky to hit, but if you get in the right spot
you're very likely to get the hit.

I'd like to make a point that using short-hopped aerials against ground opponents, or even just using aerials against
ground opponents period is not a great idea. Retreating fairs can work, and you should definitely see if your opponent
will leave themselves open, but in general Mewtwo just wants to stay rooted to the ground to use his real spacing options
like dtilt, jab and shadow balls, and only take to the air when the opponent is there as well. His slow falling speed hampers
his ability to surprise with attacks, so he must aim to misdirect his opponents when landing in order to get the chance.

One last tidbit about nair: it probably actually has less endlag than fair in the air (though greater lag on the ground), but
due to it's long execution fair is usually faster in practice.

 

[Chiroz]

Im going to focus on this part. We had different methods for determining what counts as a hit or not, and using dash attack as a tech chase option should count as a hit because its actually really damn good at it with the long lasting disjointed box, much better than any other option for catching people as they land. He used it almost entirely in situations where it could not be avoided due to catching landing lag or some other type of lag. Im not quite sure why you keep going on about nair though, I dont think I even mentioned nair once in my original post, I was focusing on other attacks.

Compare M2's fair to marths fair when spaced on on shield. They are both safe on block, both good for spacing but they key difference is Marths fair hits, and hits often. Trela managed 9 hits in 4 matches and these are 3 stock games, so thats less than 1 fair per stock on average. Trelas a very good player, but sheiks mobility and fairs small hitbox made it very difficult for him to hit with.

Thats... really bad, for a supposedly good attack. Look at any other character and see how many times in a match they will land a hit with their good moves, its a lot more than that.

If you are landing a move that is safe on shield, yet at the same time are barely landing it at all and keep getting hit for trying it when not vs a shield, it might be better to just something else.

Yet F-Air was his 4th best move in the game. According to you all of Mewtwo's moves are bad and we should only use D-Tilt, U-Air and Dash Attack (and the ocassional U-Tilt) since they are all worse than F-Air in stats in that ONE set.

...I'm starting to think you two are putting too much into the statistics of ONE GAME.

Yes Marth's fair is easier to hit, but it doesn't kill like Mewtwo's does even when tippered. @ Browny , you probably
do have a point about shadow claw not being that great at spacing since it can definitely be punished if used recklessly
and it has a small hit area, but the sheer speed of startup and power is enough to get people to respect Mewtwo when
facing him in the air. One whiffed aerial or mistimed air dodge can easily spell doom. I can't count how many close games
I've clutched out with it. That's the thing with fast startup moves; they may be tricky to hit, but if you get in the right spot
you're very likely to get the hit.

I'd like to make a point that using short-hopped aerials against ground opponents, or even just using aerials against
ground opponents period is not a great idea. Retreating fairs can work, and you should definitely see if your opponent
will leave themselves open, but in general Mewtwo just wants to stay rooted to the ground to use his real spacing options
like dtilt, jab and shadow balls, and only take to the air when the opponent is there as well. His slow falling speed hampers
his ability to surprise with attacks, so he must aim to misdirect his opponents when landing in order to get the chance.

One last tidbit about nair: it probably actually has less endlag than fair in the air (though greater lag on the ground), but
due to it's long execution fair is usually faster in practice.

No he is. My WHOLE point was showing him how wrong that table is. Analysing a game in such a way means absolutely nothing. But what got to me the most is that his data is not accurate complete, it's biased towards showing the points he wants to show, plus let's not forget how he has Jab as 5 hits with 0 punishes (which isn't true, it was punished several times) or how he has dash attack with much better stats (less misses and less punishes) than what it truly had.

Anyways, I am done, at some point he will realize that F-Air is one of Mewtwo's best moves (top 5 definitely), he just needs to get there.

Also while your last bit is technically true, just as you said the execution being so long makes it worse overall to use in the air as if you miss it gives your opponent a greater window to punish.

 

[Browny]

I really dont see why you keep trying to discount my point by saying I am biased.

I had uair as dead last in my list, yet trela made really good use of it. Confusion was his third best move in my list, but trela got a grand total of 2 hits across 12 stocks. Heck I even originally said fsmash was higher than dsmash.

Seriously I wasnt biased, just pointing out what I saw. You defined punishes different from me, thats all.

 

[Chiroz]

I really dont see why you keep trying to discount my point by saying I am biased.

I had uair as dead last in my list, yet trela made really good use of it. Confusion was his third best move in my list, but trela got a grand total of 2 hits across 12 stocks. Heck I even originally said fsmash was higher than dsmash.

Seriously I wasnt biased, just pointing out what I saw. You defined punishes different from me, thats all.

Yea man but that's my point! U-Air is very good, but niche. Confusion is one of Mewtwo's best moves for sure, Trella really, really doesn't know how to use it correctly. F-Smash is better than D-Smash, D-Smash is just safer but has much less range.

My whole point is that your list doesn't really mean anything and that F-Air is definitely a good move. Those stats don't make the move bad, and even if they did, F-Air was still a top move, your numbers are inaccurate.

As I said, you will realize how good F-Air is later on, it's just like how everyone kept saying Confusion and Disable were both useless and Mewtwo's worse moves, yet now people understand how good Confusion is (I think Disable is also great, but I need to prove it before claiming it. I am working hard on introducing it into my play).

 

[meleebrawler]

Also while your last bit is technically true, just as you said the execution being so long makes it worse overall to use in the air as if you miss it gives your opponent a greater window to punish.

Fitting into the anti-air usage of the move you mentioned earlier, it can sometimes work as a deterrent against
characters who spend a lot of time in the air and/or don't have much reach or damage in their aerials.
Situational of course, but in the right circumstances it can help him control the pace of the game.

As I said, you will realize how good F-Air is later on, it's just like how everyone kept saying Confusion and Disable were both useless and Mewtwo's worse moves, yet now people understand how good Confusion is (I think Disable is also great, but I need to prove it before claiming it. I am working hard on introducing it into my play).

Disable's greatest asset is it's attribute as a special letting it be used on both the ground and the air, which helps to mask it's startup. It can be used in a lot of situations fair would normally be used, but with much greater potential. Stun people standing on platforms, or stun them as they chase your landing; used correctly it can be his most dangerous landing tool. It also seems to have more range than it appears (unless it's a weird mechanic where jumping backwards gives more range, like Ness's old fair).

...Perhaps there could some hidden, double-jump cancelling-like tech hidden in the move?

 

[Tito Maas]

Why are y'all so angry

 

[Spirst]

Disable's greatest asset is it's attribute as a special letting it be used on both the ground and the air, which helps to mask it's startup. It can be used in a lot of situations fair would normally be used, but with much greater potential. Stun people standing on platforms, or stun them as they chase your landing; used correctly it can be his most dangerous landing tool. It also seems to have more range than it appears (unless it's a weird mechanic where jumping backwards gives more range, like Ness's old fair).

...Perhaps there could some hidden, double-jump cancelling-like tech hidden in the move?

Disable has the most range out of any of Mewtwo's moves other than Shadow Ball. It really is a good move and I've been working it into my own game. I sometimes do retreating DJC Disables to catch people trying to approach me or to read a ledge roll. Also, seeing as how it's active frame 15, it's a faster punish than either his fsmash (f19) or dsmash (f21). I also just tested whether aerial Disable has any special properties to it and from what I can see, it's identical to the grounded one in terms of stun time, range, etc.

 

[meleebrawler]

It has occurred to me that Mewtwo might have one of the most versatile platform pressure games, at least on
Battlefield's low platforms. He can surprise them with the speed of shadow claw, beat shields with the confusion
command grab, punish spot dodges or early shield drops with nair (and possibly usmash if the platform is low enough,
potentially set up kills with disable...

Speaking of which, does it really outrange dtilt in lateral reach?

 

[Chiroz]

It has occurred to me that Mewtwo might have one of the most versatile platform pressure games, at least on
Battlefield's low platforms. He can surprise them with the speed of shadow claw, beat shields with the confusion
command grab, punish spot dodges or early shield drops with nair (and possibly usmash if the platform is low enough,
potentially set up kills with disable...

Speaking of which, does it really outrange dtilt in lateral reach?

Ummm. D-Tilt I don't know. I'll test, but I know for sure it outranges F-Smash and has the same range as Marth's F-Smash.

I think F-Smash has more reach than D-Tilt right? So that would mean it does outrange it.


Edit: Yes Disable has more range than D-Tilt

 

[meleebrawler]

Ummm. D-Tilt I don't know. I'll test, but I know for sure it outranges F-Smash and has the same range as Marth's F-Smash.

I think F-Smash has more reach than D-Tilt right? So that would mean it does outrange it.


Edit: Yes Disable has more range than D-Tilt

Ah. But then again, there's always the risk of ducking. Whether proper usage of dtilt will mitigate that risk
is up in the air.

 

[---]

Good stuff with Confusion/Disable, will open this up to Mewtwo's Jabs and Tilts now.


So?:
F-Tilt - Can decently kill (best use I can think of)
U-Tilt - Combo Strings
D-Tilt - Poking & Combo Starter

 

[Enoki]

Here's one thing I found: an down-angled f-tilt actually hits lower than a d-tilt. If a character regrabs the ledge, a d-tilt often won't hit but an f-tilt can.

Obviously, F-tilt deals more damage and knockback than d-tilt and has a higher vertical hitbox, so it can potentially be better for opponents approaching from the air (but of course U-tilt could potentially be more useful in that situation) and when you predict the opponent landing behind you when you need to force them away.

 

[Chiroz]

Good stuff with Confusion/Disable, will open this up to Mewtwo's Jabs and Tilts now.


So?:
F-Tilt - Can decently kill (best use I can think of)
U-Tilt - Combo Strings
D-Tilt - Poking & Combo Starter

A few things before we change the topic.

While I haven't delivered on the Confusion guide, I am going to try and finish it up as soon as I can, honestly haven't had much time what with learning everything else Mewtwo has to offer.



As for Disable, here are some key points for those who still don't know:

Disable is Mewtwo's longest range attack (except for Shadow Ball obviously). It outranges every tilt, smash and aerial. Disable even outranges about 80-90% of Marth's attacks (F-Tilt, Side-B, F-Air, etc) just so you guys have an idea how good of a range it has.

Disable is Mewtwo's quickest kill move (Yes, Disable is effectively a kill move). Technically there is one kill move that's quicker and that is Up-Smash but because you are required to perform Jump Cancelled Dash (unless your opponent somehow is standing inside you or something), it is actually slower than just Disabling.

Disable is Mewtwo's strongest kill move. What's that? U-Smash is Mewtwo's Strongest kill move? Well even at 0% you can Up-Smash an opponent who was disabled, and guess what he is now at 1% instead of 0% so it was stronger than just Up-Smashing. Plus the more % they have the more you can charge that U-Smash (or whatever you want to end the stock with, D-Smash for style points).

While not the safest move, a well spaced Disable is a relatively safe Kill Move. The range and frame data on Disable is actually quite decent. Think of Marth's Forward Smash (as Disable is very close in Range and Frame Data from what I can tell at eye value). As long as you space it correctly it should be hard for your opponents to get a satisfying punish.

Jab1 can string into Disable on a huge portion of the cast without any options for your opponent BUT shield. If your opponent is prone to shielding then you can go for Jab1s to grabs or Confusion. Disable is also a good surprise mix up when either you or your opponent is landing. It is extremely easy to bait an air dodge into a Disable.

While aerial Disable isn't exactly the best of moves it's Mewtwo's longest range aerial (longer than B-Air). It is extremely hard to land and the knockback on it is quite weak BUT against characters with really bad recoveries this might be just what you need to gimp them. The fact that it has good range and it's disjointed also means you can do this while safely staying away from some really strong aerial move (like say Dr's Up-B, Ganon's F-Air, Little Mac's Up-B. These 3 were chosen as an example because they are 3 of the characters who can be abused the most by aerial Disable). Always remember you have this as an option.

In summary, it is Mewtwo's fastest and strongest kill move and it also has the longest range of any of his moves (excepting Shadow Ball). It is just as safe/unsafe as any of his other kill moves (again excepting Shadow Ball) and actually has quite a number of setups that lead into it (with Jab1, D-Tilt (on Fast Fallers) and Falling U-Air all setting up into Disable) which no other of his kill moves has.





So with all this said, why is Disable considered to be bad?

Well, as we know, Disable has a lot of restrictions set in place to make it specially hard to land.

Disable Stun does not work on opponents who are ducking, in the air or facing backwards.

It can also be reflected.

Disable isn't very versatile, it doesn't have many uses or different scenarios where you would want to use it. Using it at low % doesn't really reward you with anything but an extra 1% and honestly at low % you should be using your tilts which come out faster, have less end lag, have no arbitrary restrictions for them to work and are overall safer in every single sense.

But as long as you think of Disable like it was Mewtwo's best kill option (apart from Shadow Ball and Throwing) then you will understand that the move is actually quite good.





Some good tips to using Disable.

If your opponent likes to Dash Attack or Grab a lot try using Disable when you see him running towards you. Remember that Disable has incredible range plus it's a projectile so start the attack when your opponent is still too far to grab of Dash Attack, this will net you good kills.

There are certain distances from the ledge where you can punish all grounded options with Disable, the problem with this is each option requires a different timing (I am still trying to master this). So there is an specific range where you can cover regular get up, attack get up or roll get up without having to move an inch, you just have to time your Disable depending on which get up they choose. This can net you very early kills with F-Smash since they will be standing right at the edge of the stage.

When you shield a laggy move, punish with Disable! It not only adds 1% damage to your opponent but it will also allow you to charge your smash slightly making it an even harder punish! This will allow you to net early kills from shielded smashes, specially when you perfect shield a smash (which causes no shield push and allows you to drop shield instantly). Your opponent should fear smashing your shield in this way.

Remember that you can dash into Disable (unlike smashes). If your opponent likes to wait for you to approach a lot, remember that this is a valid option. You could even bait a smash into disable by dashing into your opponent and stopping short. Depending on what character you're fighting if you have a good sense of Disable's max range this becomes an extremely safe tactic (IE: Mario, who CANNOT punish a shielded max range disable with anything, as none of his smashes, tilts or specials reach Mewtwo and going for a dash attack or an aerial gives Mewtwo enough time to shield or just run away).

I'd like to emphasize the above again, there are certain characters who cannot punish a max range disable with any of their moves. This should be looked into further honestly as it might prove very handy for specific matchups.

You can also short hop->DJC Disable. This works just as dashing into a Disable but it gives you a few extra forward momentum (basically increasing your range slightly but making the strategy more dangerous/riskier). You can also trick your opponent into thinking you're going into an aerial if you allow them to see you jump.

You could also short hop->DJC Disable while going backwards. Basically the inverse of what was discussed above. You give up a little range in order to make the move safer. If you know your opponent likes to be inside your zone a lot then this might be a good option to go for, allowing you to perform Disable while spacing out his attacks or approaches.





One thing I am trying to figure out is how fast is Mewtwo's DJC from the ground. What I mean is, how long does an input perfect Jump into Double Jump + Disable (Frame one DJC) take? Is it faster than just dropping shield? This is something that I would like somehow to help me figure out because I think that it might be optimal to just frame 1 DJC Disable instead of dropping shield but I can't really tell at eye value.



A good thing to remember is to not spam Disable. With all the arbitrary restrictions set in place it is quite easy to dodge this move so if you spam it too much your opponent will start to expect it and then you probably will never be able to land it anymore.



I might have missed some things pertaining Disable, if I did I might add them later on.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good stuff with Confusion/Disable, will open this up to Mewtwo's Jabs and Tilts now.


So?:
F-Tilt - Can decently kill (best use I can think of)
U-Tilt - Combo Strings
D-Tilt - Poking & Combo Starter

Dtilt is Mewtwo's offensive spacing tool, while Ftilt is his defensive one. Dtilt is fast and can lead to some big damage,
whereas ftilt can be pivoted, knocks people a good distance away to get some breathing room (and kill late as a bonus) and causes relatively decent damage. Utilt works as a faster anti-air alternative to usmash.

 

[Yaargh!]

Guys, is Nair supposed to do a thing where Mewtwo rises by himself?

'Cause I hit someone with it in a match while I was falling after using my double jump then he rose again a little bit while it was dealing out damage.

It was pretty weird. O_o Sorry if this came up already but I didn't see it in the move descriptions in the second post or anything.

 

[Spirst]

Guys, is Nair supposed to do a thing where Mewtwo rises by himself?

'Cause I hit someone with it in a match while I was falling after using my double jump then he rose again a little bit while it was dealing out damage.

It was pretty weird. O_o Sorry if this came up already but I didn't see it in the move descriptions in the second post or anything.

No, the only way to rise with nair or any of his aerials is to use it in tandem with a jump. You must've forgotten you had a jump or had it refreshed somehow to be able to do that. If you have a replay, you should show us what happened exactly.

 

[pikazz]

Good stuff with Confusion/Disable, will open this up to Mewtwo's Jabs and Tilts now.


So?:
F-Tilt - Can decently kill (best use I can think of)
U-Tilt - Combo Strings
D-Tilt - Poking & Combo Starter

I would say that F-tilt is a counter/defensive poke since you can Pivot it and it deals 10% each hit IIRC. thats pretty much for a tilt and should be used defensive pokes/punishes thanks by the end lag

 

[Chiroz]

Guys, is Nair supposed to do a thing where Mewtwo rises by himself?

'Cause I hit someone with it in a match while I was falling after using my double jump then he rose again a little bit while it was dealing out damage.

It was pretty weird. O_o Sorry if this came up already but I didn't see it in the move descriptions in the second post or anything.

It shouldn't make you rise. Are you sure you weren't hit with a windbox or something similar?

I would say that F-tilt is a counter/defensive poke since you can Pivot it and it deals 10% each hit IIRC. thats pretty much for a tilt and should be used defensive pokes/punishes thanks by the end lag

I feel you. I've been using F-Tilt a lot to intercept opponents who are charging at me.

 

[Yaargh!]

Turns out I *was* hit by a windbox. After watching the replay again I noticed a Mr. Game & Watch using his Uair below me.
-_-;

Welp, sorry for wasting your time with this nonsense.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone notice how fthrow shadow balls fire slower or faster depending on weight?