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Mr. Doom's Ike Needs More Critiquing, Please!

Mr. Doom

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Hello, everyone, these are some videos from NO KOAST 2/21/2009 in Wichita, KS. There were a lot of good players from Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, and Texas.

Critiques would be great. :)

Mr. Doom (Ike) vs ChaosXTheory (Lucas) 1
Mr. Doom (Ike) vs ChaosXTheory (Lucas) 2
Mr. Doom (Ike) vs ChaosXTheory (Lucas) 3

There are more videos that I would like for someone to watch and critique. Sorry for the worse quality, though...

Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 1
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 2
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 3
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 4
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 5
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 6
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 7

I may have to go back and repost the vids in better quality. Critiques (other than the poor quality) will be appreciated.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,

- Mr. Doom
 

Melfice z

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in match 1:
many unecessary counters led to excess damage and near ko's which simply could have been sh f-aired and some close calls sould have been solved with a throw and a follow up instead of insisting on the jab combos so much. other than that great ike :)
 

Melfice z

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for match 2:
great start, good uses for u-smash, eruption could have punished all that rolling spot dodging,
and at 1:40 you could have easily gone for the d-tilt for a free kill =\
 

Marauder

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Too. Much. Counter. Apart from that though, you're pretty ok. Nice jabs, nice Fair. But seriously, lay off the counter.

In the second match, why you didn't use the Dtilt and insisted on the counter is beyond me...
 

PentaSalia

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second match
i say you could have killed him much earlier
he reached 130%
more tilts at certain situations would have been better
as said already
1:40 was a perfect time to tilt:p

good ike though
i like how you approached with the jabs at times
 

Mr. Doom

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Thanks, guys.

So, an up-tilt would suffice if they're coming from above, and a down-tilt would do if they're coming from below, right?
 

Nidtendofreak

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You should have abused the grab release on Lucas.

Grounded release = free jab after all. I personally would have gone for ground release -> jab1 -> grab -> ground release, and see how long I could keep it going. Obviously Lucas can escape this, but not as easily as Ness can, and it would still deal a good amount of damage. At the very least Ground Release -> Jab Combo if you didn't want to gamble with how many times you could grab -> jab -> grab him.

Less Counter. Save it for those slower, stronger attacks you see coming, only use it once or twice, just enough to throw them off balance.
 

Palpi

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Yeah, way too counter, in those situations that you used counter you could've shielded and punished a lot more than just a counter hit. I only use counter maybe once per 3 matches.
 

Melfice z

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Thanks, guys.

So, an up-tilt would suffice if they're coming from above, and a down-tilt would do if they're coming from below, right?
this, or a short hopped up-air, and no, downtilt is a spike used on someone close to the stage `below` you or someone hanging on the edge with no invincibility frames. *edit* Your welcome :) *edit*
 

PentaSalia

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counter isn't bad lol
just it's hard to time it right
it's not bad to use it once in a while
 

doom dragon 105

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o_O Doom Ike...... titles taken! xD

I'm at school so I'll edit this what I think of the videos when I get home
 

Mr. Doom

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I need opinions: what would be the best way to "step up" my Ike in gaming? How would you go about "leveling up" your Ike? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

PentaSalia

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simply start learning how to jab cancel, faster
mix it around
make it unexpected

start learning how to space a lot better

but
don't start getting predictable and start spamming a certain attack like fair

there is no fast way on"leveling up" your ike
just have to keep playing man o.o
 

voomm

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Try using the u-air more often and less down-b's other than that your awesome!
 

Shin Ike

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Too much counter (way too much, although i hate to repeat what everyone else has already stated) Also, you should use nair more as well as bair. i'm really surprised no one mentioned you not using these two moves within Ike's arsenal. I like the jab cancels, although sometimes you do them at odd moments such as when he's not even facing you or is behind you that matter, and you go on to do it 2 or 3 times. i also like some of your fairs as well. as stated tho, try to pretty much not counter at all unless an obvious attack is coming and you can make use of it, and also use more nair and bair. and try less aether spikes as well as if you try to use it too often smart players will pick up on this and avoid it easily or even turn things in their favor.
 

DMG

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I played you at No Koast/was your pool leader. (Sorry for gettting your name wrong at times lol, I'm so used to everyone calling me Doctor Mario Guy or DMG that I start adding Doctor onto their tags. Especially if their tag starts with a D.)

I haven't seen these vids, but I can tell you one thing I can think of to improve on based on when we played:

Try empty short hops/short hop airdodges towards opponents sometimes. They usually expect you to try to attack them while you are in the air and you can throw them off guard doing that smart with Ike.

IDK about using too much counter, I don't remember you using it that much when we played (although granted I was Diddy so you probably didn't wanna try that much vs him). But mostly just don't get too aggressive, if you get a lead make them approach you, etc.
 

Mr. Doom

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Say I were going against King Dedede, Falco, Fox or any other projectile spammer. What chance would I have against those guys? Is there like a specific way to attack them without being punished (i.e. DDD's butt-stomp chain grab), or am I asking a little too much?
 

KevKK

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like what everyone said, too much countering can cause decay but in many of the matches, alot of them could have been solved through many different attacks. Countering can be very predictable and also has very slow start up which can cause you to be screwed up if you time it wrong. However if you can become good enough, aether spiking can be very helpful instead of counter guarding which is somewhat limited. But everyone elses information is probably better since i havent really learned the words of SWF XD
 

KevKK

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Say I were going against King Dedede, Falco, Fox or any other projectile spammer. What chance would I have against those guys? Is there like a specific way to attack them without being punished (i.e. DDD's butt-stomp chain grab), or am I asking a little too much?
No matter what, you will be punished for ANYTHING & EVERYTHING. The main thing is to being able to read youre opponents gamestyle, however if theyyre the usual kind of players then, its probably best to go for land aerials ( aerials on the stage) and besides, countering is usually used for countering incredibly strong attacks that you KNOW you can totally punish. But yea, its best to have some distance so try using N-air and b-air as a spacer but use any random move when they're off stage to refresh all your other moves otherwise the kb will be too weak to kill them. Hope this helped
 

PentaSalia

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i don't find ike vs DDD so hard
except for the projectile spam

you can pretty much see DDD's approaches coming from a mile away
just space well as usual and you're fine

don't get too aggression either obviously

IMO at least
 

Mr. Doom

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There are more videos that I would like for someone to watch and critique. Sorry for the worse quality, though...

Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 1
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 2
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 3
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 4
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 5
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 6
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 7

I may have to go back and repost the vids in better quality. Critiques (other than the poor quality) will be appreciated.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Points from watching the first game:

Don't Jab thin-air so much. Learn the size of the hitbox.
When being sent to the sides of the screen, Air Dodging works better then any aerial attack with Ike, because all of his aerials are that slow. >_> Bair and Dair work when being knocked off the top of the screen though.

Stop Rolling behind the enemy. Ike should almost never be rolling, unless it's to roll away.

Edgeguarding attempt at :50 was too late, done wrong, and could have cost you if it wasn't for the SAF kicking in.

You should of stopped attempting to get on stage with QD @ 1:55. It was obvious what you were trying to do by the 4th time. >_>

You got too predictable with your recovery as well, so you got punished for it.

EDIT: First Snake match.

Why did you QD approach? Worse thing to do. And then you threw the grenade and just sat there to get blown up by it.

Should of stopped the jabs when he was out of range at 25ish

You placed yourself in a bad position, which costed you your 2nd stock.

Nair was a stupid idea, cost you your third stock.
 

metroid1117

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There are more videos that I would like for someone to watch and critique. Sorry for the worse quality, though...

Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 1
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 2
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 3
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Marth) Game 4
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 5
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 6
Mr. Doom (Ike) VS Clel (Snake) Game 7

I may have to go back and repost the vids in better quality. Critiques (other than the poor quality) will be appreciated.
I didn't notice anything about the quality, but I've only watched the first video so far.

1st match:
0:36 - With the amount of hitlag there is in Brawl, you should've been able to DI the tipper better with the given visual and audio cues from the attack.
0:44 - Rather than going to the edge of the stage and FSmashing, you should just go to about 3/4ths of the stage and USmash instead; while it does not have nearly as much power as the FSmash, it covers a much wider range, hitting on all sides. An FSmash at that percent would not have killed anyway, so I personally thing your primary goal should've been to tag on extra damage.
0:50 - Aetherspiking doesn't work very well on Marth; he can easily meteor cancel it or just use his invincibility frames during Dolphin Slash to break out of it. Not only that, but more competent players can just DI out of it.
0:53 - At that high percent, you should be focusing on knocking out your opponent for the edgeguard or going for the kill. Rather than FThrow, you should've either done another jab combo to send him out farther or go for the UTilt or BAir.
1:06 - You knew he airdodged, so why didn't you kill with UAir instead of hitting him with FAir, which can be easily DI'd and doesn't kill very well? You did kill him with UAir right after that, I'm just pointing out that you should've gone for the kill with a more powerful attack.
1:19 - He had broken out of the jab combo earlier in the match (0:15), so rather than trying to get extra jabs you should've known he would DI out as soon as possible and finished the combo rather than trying to get more hits in. Also, you had seen him jump out of the combo, but you still held jab; even if you were going for the combat walk / jab lock, you should stop when they break out and go on the defensive.
1:26 - FSmash is a funny move to hit with now and then, but you should be using it for kills, not for damage. He was only at 8%; you should've just FAir'd him rather than going for the FSmash.
1:36 - If you wanted to get the dash attack, you should've used BThrow; it's better than FThrow because it has less lag. I understand that you were closer to that side of the stage, but most players will DI the dash attack wrong the first time anyway, so that would've compensated for the distance away from the left side of the stage.
2:13 - At such low %s, it's very unlikely that you'll need to DI upwards for survival; you should've DI'd away during the Dancing Blade combo rather than upwards, since it set him up for the FAirs.
2:20 - Marth's landing lag during his up+B is horrendous; you were trying to get ready to punish it, but you should've known that he would avoid landing on the ground and try to land on the edge instead. USmashing would've covered both options, but you could also have gone for the FTilt or maybe even the DTilt spike over the FSmash (which probably wouldn't have hit anyway, but I could be wrong).
2:25 - Again, it's not smart to Aetherspike Marth. You also should've landed on the edge rather than the stage, but it was just a human mistake; you know that already. The DI on the FSmash was very bad; any time you find yourself open for a hit, you should at least hold a direction to DI in or try and SDI the hit if you expect it.

General comments: I didn't see much punishing on either side for it, but there were too many rolls from both you and your opponent. Try to cut down on this, since better players will punish you for it. Against Marth, you should get him off the stage and then pressure him by edgehogging him every time he tries to get back; it's free damage for you when he touches down on the stage. You didn't really land any BAirs if I recall correctly; try getting yourself in better position for those by turning your back to him before shielding, allowing you to BAir out of shield. Against spot-dodging opponents, you can jump with your back towards them to bait the spot-dodge, then BAir them after it's done.

Of course, that's only what I saw from the first game; I'll look at more of the videos later.

One last thing - you should edit the original post+title and add these videos so that people will know there's new material to critique.
 

PentaSalia

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In response to PentaSalia, even if you space correctly, DDD can grab you. His grab range is obscene. DDD doesn't have to approach at all, he can force you to approach with his Side B projectile.
yea actually figured that out while i was fighting a DDD the other day....
ike isn't fast enough to avoid those projectiles, so you have to approach....

that's why picking a stage with ledges should help then
 

Mr. Doom

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So, with DDD, a place to take him would be something like Battlefield, right? I'm sure there are more stages than just Battlefield, but that's the only place I can think of right now.
 

metroid1117

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So, with DDD, a place to take him would be something like Battlefield, right? I'm sure there are more stages than just Battlefield, but that's the only place I can think of right now.
Battlefield is generally your best bet, I'd say; it's easily Ike's best neutral stage. Pirate Ship is another good stage to take him, since he has no spikes and, given his size, you can easily get an Aetherspike off and then proceed to go for the spikes. Or, if he starts airdodging, you can just bait the airdodge and BAir him out or, if he's low enough, DAir him.

2nd match:
0:13 - Good job getting him in the jab combo, but you should've stopped after he got out.
0:22 - Something similar to this happened in the previous match (you got stagespiked, but your opponent was going for the same thing); when recovering against Marth, try to Aether such that you land on the stage and not the edge, since Dolphin Slash can get there VERY quickly.
0:24 - Rather than come down with a FAir, you should've dropped down and quickly pressure him with your invincibility by just running at him and forcing a reaction. They can either jump, shield, roll behind you, roll away from you, or spot-dodge. Charging an USmash covers three of those options, making it generally the best form of punishment for re-establishing control.
0:37 - Why did you just stand there after he used Counter? You could've easily punished with a jab combo or a USmash at the very least.
0:42 - You read him properly, but you messed up your spacing; if you're baiting an airdodge, try to keep your opponent behind you but slightly above you; that way, you have the option of either UAir'ing or BAir'ing them.
1:06 - He had airdodged at 0:42, so you should've been able to guess that he would airdodge your DAir. Most of the time, your opponent will only switch strategies if they get punished for it, so keeping a mental record of what they did helps a lot in baiting defensive maneuvers. You also got impatient at 1:12 and missed the kill because of this.
1:21 - You probably did it out of frustration, but you should not be using FSmash when you're opponent's that high; you should've used another move that is much faster and has a better chance of hitting (like USmash).
1:25 - DSmash? I'm just going to contribute that to simple player error.
1:36 - If your opponent shields the jab combo, you should either stagger the hits or go for a grab rather than try continuing it.
1:45 - Airdodging is better than BAir when it comes to stopping your momentum if you're getting hit towards the horizontal kill zone.
1:46 - Again, you didn't really use the invincibility frames upon return very well; rather than going for the grab you should be going for a way to deal a lot of damage while establishing momentum.
1:53 - You were DI'ing out of the FAirs, which is good, but you failed to DI the FSmash at all; you should've been prepared for it, since he uses FAir -> FSmash a lot and because of the audio+visual cues of the attack.
1:57 - Your opponent's % was far too low for FSmash to be a good option; it feels good when you land it, but the risk of missing, especially this late in a match, outweighs the potential gains of hitting with it.
2:18 - Your opponent likes to airdodge through your attacks a lot; you should've realized this and, instead of jumping up with the BAir, either wait for the airdodge and BAir or use an USmash to cover most of his landing options.
2:20 - Bad DI; you should've realized you would be hit as soon as you rolled and your opponent didn't attack.
2:29 - You missed an opportunity to Aether him through the tree to punish for the DSmash.
2:34 - Again, bad DI on the FSmash.
3:00 - On the last throw, you should've pummeled for extra damage and then use BThrow instead of FThrow so you can attempt the BThrow -> dash attack combo rather than just throwing him and letting him go.
3:13 - Why did you roll after his airdodge? You should've ground-stalked him with an USmash.

General comments: You played too impulsively, missing a lot of opportunities to punish for airdodging. If I recall correctly, the only time you made a huge profit by waiting for the airdodge was at the very end with FSmash. Use USmash a lot more, it covers the most area out of Ike's other attacks (Eruption's area might be greater than or as good though) and is much faster than his FSmash. Although it's your style to hit your opponents with aerials, I suggest that you stalk your opponent on the ground more; it makes landing those USmashes and tilts much easier, and they generally do more damage and knockback than Ike's aerials (UAir being the exception). You also need to work on your DI; every time you leave yourself open, you should be instinctively ready for the incoming attack and DI'ing appropriately. A lot of the times you got hit with the FSmash, you just went straight out at a roughly 30 degree angle.
 

Mr. Doom

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Pirate Ship is banned in Wichita, Kansas, although Isle Delfino is a neutral stage.

Yes, Pirate Ship would be my best counterpick if it weren't banned, but I am thinking of some other counterpicks like Luigi's Mansion, Green Greens, and Pokemon Stadium 2.

Pokemon Stadium 2: The ice field gives Quick Draw a huge advantage, and you can slide with the F-Smash as well. The flying field makes is nearly impossible to gimp Ike since everyone becomes so floaty. The earth field has an infinite chain grab for Ike on possibly most characters. I still have to see how I'm going to deal with the electric field

Green Greens: My crew has been told to ban this stage should they ever face me, because of two factors: several recovery ledges and "lagless Ike." Those squares give Ike numerous possibilities, for example D-Smash to b-air. The only problem is the bombs.

Luigi's Mansion: This is best in my opinion to stop projectile spammers in their tracks. Plus, I can use the columns to lag Ike if they want to spot dodge me, setting up a Smash attack. Also, Quick Draw will go through the columns, so this can be used as a surpriser to KO people. As a matter of fact, I won a match doing this.
 
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