Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[Camalange]

Can we Z-drop while in a ball, lol

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Can we Z-drop while in a ball, lol

We still can but I don't know if it's useful for anything.

Now, if only we could still grab the item while in the roll state..

 

[Camalange]

We still can but I don't know if it's useful for anything.

Now, if only we could still grab the item while in the roll state..

Man...

That'd be so hype. At least having Z-drop still is good I guess. Our banana control game is so much weaker now though :/ Can't roll over them, can't catch them while in roll…

 

[Sonic Orochi]

@ Sonic Orochi
Don't suppose we can get some frame data for our standing/running/pivot grab? as in when the grab-box is actually out? thanks in advance bro

According to this:

• Grab: frame 6
• Dash and pivot grab: frame 10

 

[Gregory2590]

Something that I want to share that may be worthless and well known but will be shown anyway:

Remember that slowed down spin dash/charge thing that happens when the spinning aura goes from an oval to a circle shape?(now known as the lyric dash apparently) It apparently can be chained into a grab. The game doesn't acknowledge it as a true combo though, so I think DI can mess it up. Plus, it only works 0-22~%, so I only see it as a starting move or some nonsense. I can't test DI's effect with this since I don't have a living reliable test dummy.

EDIT: This was tested on Mario.

 

[Heartstring]

LYRIC DASH YEEEAAAAHHH
Best name ever

 

[Camalange]

We shall dub the slow variant of Spin Dash/Spin Charge as the Lyric Dash.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

We shall dub the slow variant of Spin Dash/Spin Charge as the Lyric Dash.

Sounds awesome.

 

[Heartstring]

hohohold the **** up, @ True Blue Warrior AND @True Blue are both people? This needs to get fixed right now it's going to confuse the **** out of me.

Also TBW I hope you joined smashuk

 

[Camalange]

hohohold the **** up, @ True Blue Warrior AND @True Blue are both people? This needs to get fixed right now it's going to confuse the **** out of me.

Oh yeah, I've addressed this before. They know.

 

[Tenki]

Anyone know about the mechanic to have someone bounce up with you when you use a midair spring?

It's confused me a few times. I thought it was a footstool but I accidentally saved a DK in this situation:
- I get a low % D-throw > D-air spike
- DK uses up-B to delay death
- I jump back and miss a footstool
- I use Up-B to recover, but instead of a spring hit/miss, he goes flying up with me and round continues

So...

Things I'm interested in:
- Can you interrupt moves with spring?
- Can you interrupt airdodge with spring?
- Skydragon with (sp)wings?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

- Can you interrupt moves with spring?

Yes.

- Can you interrupt airdodge with spring?

As in bypass the airdodge invincibility frames? I don't think so.

- Skydragon with (sp)wings?

It's so surprisingly fast that even you won't expect it.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

aerial spring might bypass airdodges as grounded spring does

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Now that you mention it, it does seem like a possible scenario..

 

[Camalange]

That'd be pretty godlike to steal airdodge's invincibility and set them up for a spring > uair kill instead lmao.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

only problem with our aerial spring is that it bounces them higher than us making aerial spring > uair hard to pull off unless it's vs someone who falls fast.

 

[Tenki]

- Can you interrupt airdodge with spring?

Tested.

Yes.

 

[Camalange]

Even though we'd interrupt invincibility, they'd still be able to act out of the spring faster than us.

 

[Tenki]

ay, mixup option though lol.

 

[Camalange]

lmao it's definitely cool to know, jussayin' tho.

Sonic is pretty boss at punishing airdodges as it is. Uair and Nair are godlike.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

or you can dair them off the top :3

 

[Sonic Orochi]

You know, we should start using BSBS in our favor. Short hopping the spin jumps do catch a lot of people off guard and with BSBS we don't even need to time the jump: just mash the button and it will happen.

 

[cerealkiller]

Have any of you guys been able to incorporate some of the advanced moves in more competitive matches? I can now execute the Spinshot and Instant Spin Dash Jump quite easily but then when I'm fighting they are rarely ever used.
Only when the opponent is clearly inferior do I fool around and pull the tricks off but when they are good I just play fast a stick with the basics... To be fair, latelly I've been trying to incorporate Instant Spin Dash Jump which works with floaty characters.
I once got a nice kill off of a spinshot, I think I have the replay I should post it sometime!
Not once have I pulled the ledge snap thing off once....

So, is someone making real use of them?

 

[Camalange]

Have any of you guys been able to incorporate some of the advanced moves in more competitive matches? I can now execute the Spinshot and Instant Spin Dash Jump quite easily but then when I'm fighting they are rarely ever used.
Only when the opponent is clearly inferior do I fool around and pull the tricks off but when they are good I just play fast a stick with the basics... To be fair, latelly I've been trying to incorporate Instant Spin Dash Jump which works with floaty characters.
I once got a nice kill off of a spinshot, I think I have the replay I should post it sometime!
Not once have I pulled the ledge snap thing off once....

So, is someone making real use of them?

I think the most important thing to note about a lot of Sonic's AT's is that they're mix-up options. That's really all they are. None of them are particularly breaking the meta or anything.

I do think Spinshot and ISDJ are very important to learn for Sonic players though, as Sonic is so reliant on utilizing all of his assets to approach, recover, etc. None of them are particularly reliable, but knowing what you can do in any given situation is the mark of a top Sonic.

I'd say I use Spinshot the most, but I've been playing since Brawl so executing and knowing when to do it is something pretty deeply ingrained into my style. ISDJ is a tech that I'd like to incoporate far more often, as of right now it's something I really only do if I think about it and see a really good scenario for it… I'd like it to become stronger muscle memory.

I still suck at punishing ledgesnaps. I need someone to hit up the lab with me for proper practice.

 

[Tenki]

+1 @ noting they're there for mixups.

Spinshot can be a recovery option near ledges.

For me:
- Spindash cancels are still part of my playstyle, though it feels like Sonic slides a little more before the charge so sometimes my spacing is off. Partly charged cancels can get someone to reduce their shield, or sound-training them to react to dash attacks or released spindashes can psyche them into a spotdodge or other reaction when you need the kill move.

- I love foxtrot for the same reason. Train someone to spotdodge or do a grab-avoidance move, then punish with foxtrot F-smash

- Same way, retreating forward smash (try a manual back-forward-A) can punish someone who tries to grab/do a tipper-spaced move.

- I wish I could pull off ISDJ better. I can see it as a good option to cover/pressure someone who may airdodge.

- I like punishing ledgesnap with d-air > footstool.

 

[Camalange]

I really dislike that, even with tap jump turned off, Sonic still jumps out of a spin roll if I input a tap jump...

 

[Sonic Orochi]

That happened on Brawl too, IIRC. I'm way more annoyed by the fact that pressing B during a roll now activates a jump.

 

[Camalange]

It might've, but I don't remember tbh. I just noticed I'd sometimes jump out of a spin too early and be confused if I accidentally pressed a button or not...

The B thing doesn't bother me as much but it is counter intuitive, considering that's the charge button which shouldn't also be the jump button.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So, does anyone know what's the timing needed in order for the reversal Spindash to make you pivot slide? I've been messing around with SDSC a lot and found that if you shield cancel the SD ASAP, you'll slide in the direction you were running, regardless if you reverse the SD or not (already knew that it existed but never bothered to check its timing).

This is a safer alternative to running shield grab, since we can have the shield up way before entering the opponent's reach.

I think that SDSC and reverse SDSC will play a vital role in the future, due to Sonic's lack of good approach options in Sm4sh. Spacing while faking SDs seems good in theory but I've yet to test it in a real match.

I think we would benefit greatly if we could get the pivot slide timing 100%. Running away and then reverse pivot slide into shield sounds like a great tool, tbh, specially with our running speed.

On a side note, how do you guys reverse your SD? Just run in one direction and then reverse the SD? Or just run and then SD the other way (it's way slower, though)? I've used to do the first option but it's killing my left arm, so I've implemented the C-Stick into the equation now, by flicking it with my right index finger, and it works awesomely well (guess it works better on the Pro Controller, though). I just need to get used to the timing to leave the analog back to neutral in order to not accidentally roll.

 

[Camalange]

I'm going to try to use SDSC grabs instead of running grabs and see how it goes.

I can't get the slide every time on the pivot version though. I'm sure it's a frame specific thing...

 

[Tenki]

This is a safer alternative to running shield grab, since we can have the shield up way before entering the opponent's reach.

I don't believe this is true, because SDSC isn't an instant shield - there are some startup frames that you might as well just run and (power) shield. The majority of the slide happens during startup frames.

So, does anyone know what's the timing needed in order for the reversal Spindash to make you pivot slide? I've been messing around with SDSC a lot and found that if you shield cancel the SD ASAP, you'll slide in the direction you were running, regardless if you reverse the SD or not (already knew that it existed but never bothered to check its timing).

...

I think that SDSC and reverse SDSC will play a vital role in the future, due to Sonic's lack of good approach options in Sm4sh. Spacing while faking SDs seems good in theory but I've yet to test it in a real match.

I think we would benefit greatly if we could get the pivot slide timing 100%. Running away and then reverse pivot slide into shield sounds like a great tool, tbh, specially with our running speed.

So since you brought up SDSC, I finally decided to look into it because of that annoying (forward) slide and figured out the timing for the pivot slide.

1) Must be full dash (so startup and fox trot will not give you a slide - however, doing it there will give you a full stop on momentum).
2) Must be B-reversed (Forward-B-Back, not just Back-B)
3) Good timing on B-reversal, 3 results:
- Too Early: Instantly hitting Back after Forward-B will make you slide forward while facing backwards. (Warning: you can slide almost 1/4 FD before your shield comes up)
- 3-5 frame delay?: Reverse sliding shield
- Too Late: Momentum stop, facing backwards.

4) Good timing on Shield Cancel:
- Too Early (hitting shield before you B-reverse): You'll roll
- Good (Held down during startup): Slide
- Too late: Momentum stop

Meeting all the conditions should get you a reverse sliding shield about your F-tilt distance.

Some nice implications of the conditions though:
- Full run momentum reversal on the ground
- You can do it right after a turnaround
- You can do it from a slow run (lol, foxtrot -> slow run -> reverse sliding shield)

On a side note, how do you guys reverse your SD? Just run in one direction and then reverse the SD? Or just run and then SD the other way (it's way slower, though)? I've used to do the first option but it's killing my left arm, so I've implemented the C-Stick into the equation now, by flicking it with my right index finger, and it works awesomely well (guess it works better on the Pro Controller, though). I just need to get used to the timing to leave the analog back to neutral in order to not accidentally roll.

Manually, with B and Control stick.
B-reversal on the ground must be done with Forward-B-Back.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Awesome work on the timings, Tenki. Much appreciated.

I don't believe this is true, because SDSC isn't an instant shield - there are some startup frames that you might as well just run and (power) shield. The majority of the slide happens during startup frames.

Well, I dunno the real frame data but it seemed safer because you can start the SD much earlier and then have your shield up before entering the opponent's attack range. Then again, I might be wrong because I did not test this thoroughly.

Oh, yeah, we can also slide spotdodge with this lol

 

[Tenki]

Couple of random other notes:

B-reversed SD can lead to ISDJ with opposite momentum too.

I still can't perform ISDJ with any consistency, and I don't see much use for pulling one out of a B-reversed spindash, but just wanted to point out that it's a thing too.

It also does have 'variations' depending on how early you B-reverse:
- Too early acts like a RAR ISDJ.
- Right timing will do ISDJ in the opposite direction ("back")
- Too late acts like a RAR SDJ.

so really, for both slide and ISDJ, your stick timing determines how it acts.

Early B-reverse SD cancel can lead to a reverse sliding shield grab. Not sure if the tradeoff between speed/distance is worth anything to Sonic though.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yep, reverse ISDJ was already known but seeing how it's already stupidly difficult to do it normally, reversing it is just making it even more stupid.

RAR ISDJ was a thing that interested me, though. Too bad the amount of stupidity involved in actually pulling it off kinda makes me want to never have discovered that it existed in the first place.

However, the reverse sliding shield grab is kinda fun. You can make your opponent think you're going away and then you suddenly come back with a shield grab. Again, too bad it's also stupid to pull off (a little less stupid, though). Also, running past them and grabbing using that is really cool-looking.

 

[Jords2Good]

If only someone can make a really good sonic guide video. If only 6WX would do it as he is one of the best sonics out there who is showing how good sonic is in this game.

 

[Camalange]

There's been a lot of talks, but part of my issue with making a full guide this early is that there's still a lot to learn...

... Which is why I want to make short videos covering individual aspects of his metagame. Would there be an interest there? First one I'm working on is how to spinshot but I've been super busy.

 

[Jords2Good]

Well that is true and were most likely gonna get another update especially with mewtwo coming in and all the other stuff like tourneys and Miiverse stage.

It would actually be nice having individual videos learning certain parts of sonic cause I guess long videos wouldn't do good with most people.

If you plan on making those kids I would definitely be interested in seeing them.

Maybe have videos about Sonic's down air spike , how does it work? What are the risk? All I know is when it works its frickin' cool. Although I somewhat have an idea on how it works.

 

[Gregory2590]

Is it me or is SDH/SCH into HA underused? Basically:

1. It works at low and high percentages.

2. It can kill.(when it looks like it friggin shouldn't, but it does. I somehow got it to kill from near the center of FD with SC>HA at some high percentage)

3. For some reason, A LOT of people drop their shield at the homing attack portion if they're still grounded. Probably because they're at your HA's charging speed's mercy.

4. It does decent damage.(i think around 30%?)

5. It can essentially be used as a hit and run combo since the bounce from HA sends you away quite a bit.

6. It's so damn fun to use.

 

[Heartstring]

I thought b-reverse SDSC slide was already a thing? I've been using it since before apex, if I knew that I would have wrote it down in here o.o

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I've been holding off on working on a tutorial video mainly because of the Mewtwo patch (and laziness. Mostly laziness). I am definitely going to make one eventually, though.

HA on shield heavily depends on the MU. Sheik, for instance, can easily drop the shield and aerial chase us after the HA (as if that MU wasn't bad already).

Reverse SDSC was already a thing but I just brought that up again because, aside from the fact that I'm really gonna try to implement that more into my playstyle, I think it's gonna be crucial to work on our spacing and baiting options since our good approaches were reduced to zero.