Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[Jords2Good]

Is it me or is SDH/SCH into HA underused? Basically:

1. It works at low and high percentages.

2. It can kill.(when it looks like it friggin shouldn't, but it does. I somehow got it to kill from near the center of FD with SC>HA at some high percentage)

3. For some reason, A LOT of people drop their shield at the homing attack portion if they're still grounded. Probably because they're at your HA's charging speed's mercy.

4. It does decent damage.(i think around 30%?)

5. It can essentially be used as a hit and run combo since the bounce from HA sends you away quite a bit.

6. It's so damn fun to use.

What sonic orichi said, I think it depends on the match up because when some characters do shield the HA, they can punish you after.

Personally I try to not use it a bunch because its possible that it could miss and then put me in a bad spot.

I have to agree though it is fun to use and its a very satisfying combo kill.

 

[Camalange]

I normally wouldn't risk HAing a shield... Unless I've conditioned them to drop shield a certain way then punish with HA.

I sometimes SDJ confirm into HA though, cuz it's a cute little combo.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

i've Ko'd people off the top/upper corner through SDJ into HA and it feels soooo satisfying. I also love landing with the tip of the first hit of Uair into a DJ Bair, depending on % it's a guranteed setup and seeing as the first hit comes out frame 5 it catches ppl off guard occasionally especially though who are attempting to intercept sonic's landing with a jump into an aerial.

 

[Camalange]

At mid-percents you can almost always guarantee the HA combo out of SDJ... But I usually don't risk it at higher percents, especially off-stage, because if you miss, it puts you in a really bad position.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

usually how i setup for it is i'll Spin dash into them continue rolling for a bit jump then semi charge HA and usually can KO around 140-160%

With SDJ i usually off the hit confirm go for the lowest charge HA around 130-140. I've also been experimenting with spin charge jump into dair spike as we can get it to guarantee into dair vs diddy as low as 40 and go into a HA to cover the jump they will likely do followed by a DJ fair for an easy gimp. We can get this setup guranteed off a spin dash >footstool spring reset. I haven't actually done it in tournament but thats mainly due to the fact i always forget that i have that option at my disposal whenever i land a spin charge due to constantly having to remember about the death reaper that is BSBS.....

If BSBS wasn't in the game aerial spin dash into DJ aerials would be soooo good. BSBS makes any hit confirms off an aerial spin attack almost pointless because we lose a lot of DJ out of spin attack followup options.

 

[Heartstring]

I normally wouldn't risk HAing a shield... Unless I've conditioned them to drop shield a certain way then punish with HA.

I sometimes SDJ confirm into HA though, cuz it's a cute little combo.

Really? I HA on shield all the time, it's actually really safe. if they decide to chase you can just spring out.
Admittedly, I do it too much but still

 

[Camalange]

Really? I HA on shield all the time, it's actually really safe. if they decide to chase you can just spring out.
Admittedly, I do it too much but still

It's safer than Brawl because of the better control over your follow-up movement and the cooldown isn't as bad... So yeah, you can risk it, but it's still definitely punishable.

 

[Heartstring]

It's safer than Brawl because of the better control over your follow-up movement and the cooldown isn't as bad... So yeah, you can risk it, but it's still definitely punishable.

I've honestly not been punish for it by anyone other than sheik. even then Im fairly sure I can spring out :/

 

[Camalange]

I've honestly not been punish for it by anyone other than sheik. even then Im fairly sure I can spring out :/

Maybe we should look into it on a character by character basis. I feel like Mii Brawler, maybe even Ike can get a hitbox there in time. They just need to react it to properly.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

wasn't sure if ppl are aware of this but it's possible for us to perform a floating spin dash/spin charge if we hit our opponent with an an uncharged spin attack and roll off the stage. Though its different for both spin dash and spin charge

SD version: simply use side B into an opponent from the ledge then turn around and let spin dash go offstage it should result in sonic not losing any vertical height at all.

SC version: this ones a bit trickier to pull off but basically you need to hit with just two hits as your falling through the opponent and land on the stage and then roll off the ledge. the same thing should happen where he keeps rolling but doesn't lose any vertical height.

I would record this if i had stuff to record with but i can't. Though this doesn't seem super practical at higher % although at lower %'s it can allow us a safer option than simply being afraid to roll off the ledge and SD due to BSBS.

 

[Camalange]

Do you mean like how iSDR travels in a straight line?

Jordan said before that he got that effect on BF and it confused the hell out of me. I think Espy recreated it very briefly on FD as well.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

yea it's basically like iSDR but minus the invincible part. it's easy (for me atleast) to perform consistently. I've even used it in a couple matches recently

 

[Kinzer]

I just noticed that there's no note mentioning how Back-Throw positions opponents' back towards Sonic.

This is an extremely helpful tool. Some character have terrible/good bairs, and those with rather poor coverage behind them have to commit some way to turning around.

 

[Heartstring]

Maybe we should look into it on a character by character basis. I feel like Mii Brawler, maybe even Ike can get a hitbox there in time. They just need to react it to properly.

We need to just look at actual frame data on it. @ Sonic Orochi can you perhaps find out the frame data on homing attack? Like just how much cooldown it has vs. shieldstun, non-cancelled version probably has a frame or two more shieldstun

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I still don't really >know< how to get accurate frame data, but I'll try to see what I can do.

Not anytime soon, though, because my external HDD decided to simply DIE on me out of the blue, taking with it a few hundred (srsly) replays spotlights I've recorded during the past month..

So, yeah, I'm too depressed to even reinstall my Wii U that I took to a friend's house last weekend..

Spoiler

And it was a 3TB drive as well..

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Updated with more frame data from here: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

I have no idea what the b/g means. I mean.. I think they stand for base knockback and knockback growth but I have no idea how to use that data.

There's also some info like hitlag and angles and SDI (?). Are those useful in any way?

Also, it's a whole mess when it comes to the Spin specials so I've left those with N/A frame data.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

i believe SDI will be useful in notifying us on how easy a specific move is to get out of (granted multihit moves re hard to escape).

 

[Crabman]

So for the sake of discussion, what do you all think is sonics least utilized move / tech used by the average sonic player?

Some examples would be ledge trumping, dair spikes, etc

 

[Sonic Orochi]

From what I've been doing:

Move: Utilt;
Tech: ledge trumping (we have practically zero options after doing this).

 

[Camalange]

I've actually gotten a lot better at Dair spiking.

It's still situational, but tricky.

Utilt is kinda just bad now. Really niche uses. VSDJ and Nair are like, better anti-air options lol.

Actually, Nair is godlike in general. I use Nair like, all the time. Everyone should Nair more.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

nair went from useless in brawl to godlike. Upsmash went from situational and bad to situational but great. Utilt went from a good juggle starter off dtilt to useless. Not to mention the move got no buffs at all and had it's range nerfed.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

nair went from useless in brawl to godlike. Upsmash went from situational and bad to situational but great. Utilt went from a good juggle starter off dtilt to useless. Not to mention the move got no buffs at all and had it's range nerfed.

I see what you did there.

Added the link to the spreadsheet containing data on which moves work on opponents hanging onto ledges. Nothing new, I just had forgotten to do so when I'd created it.

 

[Kinetik07]

Sorry if this is old or already mentioned somewhere,

noticed SC'ing out of a run causes a slide, so long as you SC before the skid. It takes little practice to get the timing right and you just have to remember to hold down so it actually charges. You can buffer a SCJ out of it by pressing c-stick up/left/right(the same way you would do a grounded SC spinshot[not actually spinshot]). The slide easier if you set c-stick to special.

I couldn't do this in Brawl, so I think it should be one of the [CHANGE]s?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDOQtvOzDA

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yep, I'd already mentioned it on the ISDJ topic, as an alternative to ISDJ and I think we could also do it in Brawl, but I'm not sure.

However, I still don't know any good uses for it yet (although I still haven't used it at all on any real matches so far).

 

[Kinetik07]

Ah, I figured

I wasn't able to replicate it in Brawl even with c-stick set to special, but I may have been doing it wrong. Wouldn't it be useful as a moving charge rather than charging in place?

EDIT: apologies for the low quality. I rerecorded it in 1/4th speed, because it was kinda hard to see the slide on the last video I linked.

If we only do 1 charge, there's no halting motion in the transition from run > SCR

It's pretty fun to use to keep a flow going imo, but I do agree it's not that practical because you might as well charge it fully beforehand. Maybe you can use it as a way to sneak in an SCR? After all, going into a ball reduces your vertical presence, although only slightly, and there's no glowing aura until you've already released it(but there is a sound cue).

 

[Funkermonster]

Good situations o use Fair? Been told I should try using it more in shorthops, but I'm still hung up on using SD and dash attack right now and wanna expand my options usage a little more. I like using it after an Utilt or sometimes offstage, but I dunno what else to do with it.

I'm also beginning to like Dtilt a little more now, helped me win a Sonic ditto at my last tournament.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Ah, I figured

I wasn't able to replicate it in Brawl even with c-stick set to special, but I may have been doing it wrong. Wouldn't it be useful as a moving charge rather than charging in place?

EDIT: apologies for the low quality. I rerecorded it in 1/4th speed, because it was kinda hard to see the slide on the last video I linked.

If we only do 1 charge, there's no halting motion in the transition from run > SCR

It's pretty fun to use to keep a flow going imo, but I do agree it's not that practical because you might as well charge it fully beforehand. Maybe you can use it as a way to sneak in an SCR? After all, going into a ball reduces your vertical presence, although only slightly, and there's no glowing aura until you've already released it(but there is a sound cue).

Don't get me wrong, I see it as a very good tool to "keep a flow going", but it's hard to execute it 100% of the time. I mean, if you stop and charge, people will see miles away what you're doing. Going into a SCR straight from running is way faster (and cooler), plus we can simply use the single charge and bait a shield then go for a grab/pivot grab.

Still, this is only theorycraft so far. I haven't tried using it because of its input inconsistency.

Good situations o use Fair? Been told I should try using it more in shorthops, but I'm still hung up on using SD and dash attack right now and wanna expand my options usage a little more. I like using it after an Utilt or sometimes offstage, but I dunno what else to do with it.

I'm also beginning to like Dtilt a little more now, helped me win a Sonic ditto at my last tournament.

Use it in SH, as you've said, specially against people who like to approach from the air, such as Jiggs.

I also tend to use it after a mid-high percent Uthrow (after using a Spring, of course).

 

[ROOOOY!]

Jiggz will knock you out of fair with anything. Its probably my least used move outside of dtilt. I only use fair against people with **** recoverys like falcon. I don't know how to use fair onstage either, apart from against fatties like bowser. You certainly don't use fair against people with legit air games like jiggz anyway.

 

[Kinetik07]

In terms of consistency, yea, I guess it's another one of those frame perfect things, you just gotta be quick to move the analog stick from forward to down so he doesn't skid first. However, I'd argue that it's at least easier than SD spinshot. You need to hit the attack button on a certain frame window to spinshot; if it's too early, it doesn't register, if it's too late, it's a regular jump. On the other hand, you just need to do SC immediately out of a run to slide. Plus, I bet most of us are used to spinshot from brawl anyway(unless you guys only used the air SC spinshot)

Also, I noticed if you do a VSDJ out of the slide, it retains some momentum depending on how early you hit jump. These are less inclined than regular VSDJ, but more inclined than the almost instant SDJ.

Spoiler

On a different subject, as if reverse ISDJ wasn't hard enough, did you guys know you could reverse that twice? lol
You ISDJ backwards but face forwards(hits enemy the opposite direction of where you're going, so pretty much useless, but you know, style points). If you mess it up and double reverse forward ISDJ, it becomes regular forward-facing forward ISDJ..

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's not like you're gonna challenge Jiggz in the air with Fair. Bait the aerial, the shorthop.. and then Fair. That kind of stuff.

Yeah, we can ISDJ while facing away from the direction we're travelling but, again, it's so stupid to get it correctly that I wouldn't even bother.

Edit: after some testing, I couldn't help but notice that the new SDJ/SCJ property of sending opponents the way Sonic's facing actually gets in the way of the idea of using a reversed ISDJ to Bair. The ISDJ just sends the enemy the other way, rendering this tactic useless and adding another point to the "do not waste time trying to use this tech" category.

 

[Kinetik07]

Was messing with reverse pivot shenanigans

Spoiler

Reminds me of a retreating wavedash, but you can only shield/grab/ISDJ or just SD. Honestly, the input is kinda like a perfect pivot: run > B > back > forward > shield/grab/attack. I found it easier to smash back in such a way that letting it return to neutral bounces the stick forward a bit so he does that double reverse(still ridiculously hard though)

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Still not really applicable in a real match, though. I'm starting to consider using ISDJ (VSDJ, actually) more and it's still a chore (and its timing is WAY more lenient than the "slide-pivot-reverse SD")..

So, uncharged HA seems to be a guaranteed hit after a VSDJ at lower percents and a fully charged one kinda acts like a trap if the opponent spams airdodge (locks on before the air dodge, follows enemy, hits when airdodge finishes).

Need more people to confirm/deny this, since I can only test this in training mode..

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

People really need to try using springing headbutt. We trade the ability to uthrow spring uair for uthrow double jump springing headbutt bair. for KO's at around 100. We also can do a 50% combo off the move. Fastfall uair > full hop bair > double jump uair >springing headbutt > bair we also get a 43/48% combo off BSD > BSDJ > uair >fastfall > springing headbutt > bair/fair. We can also edgeguard with springing headbutt off stage as the hitbox i believe activates on frame 1.

 

[Camalange]

So the in-game tips refer to Sonic's jump after a Spin Charge as a Spin Jump…

Can we just say Spin Jump more? I know sometimes it's important to specify whether or not it's out of a SD or SC but just food for thought on trying to make our terminology a little less of an eye/earsore.

 

[Myst_R]

Can anyone explain me why the Burning Spin Dash lower the SCJ height ?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

it's because both SC and SD go into the same SDR(spin dash roll) except their damage is different. Thus because of this their jumping heights are the same so Hammer Spin Dash will cause SCJ to jump higher while Burning Spin Dash will cause it to jump lower.

Hope that this makes sense.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's just terribad programming.

I mean, SHSDJ and SHSCJ have different heights ffs.

 

[Kytos]

I want to share something with you guys.

Not sure if this has been discovered or not, but I recently realized this interesting mechanic in Sonic's spring.

When the spring is on the ground, there's 1 frame in which Sonic can use the spring and warp the player to him when the other player uses the spring.

You have to use use the spring at the same time they bounce off the spring. You just need one spring on the ground. This works in the air too.

Not sure how useful this might be, but it's rather interesting, nonetheless.

I'll see if I can provide a video. It's hard to record it with a phone while playing 3DS.

 

[Camalange]

Warp?

I think I'll need a video.

 

[Kytos]

Warp?

I think I'll need a video.

It was a bit hard to do this when holding my phone between my legs and playing, but I managed to get it.

The spawn of the spring makes them warp to you.

I have yet to confirm if it works with Megaman as well, considering Rush doesn't last as long.

Edit: It's very strict timing. I'm sure there's only a 1 frame window.