Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[Ixisnaugus]

Whichever variation Canpy uses, he seems to be executing it consistently and using it practically. It's worth pursuing, I think.

 

[iSpiN]

Ok, I have no way to record it, but we can kind of wavebounce on the ground with our SD. I guess it works the same way as a wavebounce, but grounded. All you have to add is a shield cancel.

Dash > SD > Reverse Sd > Shield Cancel

I don't know if you already knew it, if it can be usefull but I found it nice to see.

My explanations may not be clear and I'm not sure I can record it properly so I hope someone will get it or already knows it to make a proper footage.

EDIT: I can not do it consistently, but I can confirm it acts like a wavebounce but on the ground : I slide in the opposite direction of my initial dash

Came here to report this. I found this Monday and found to use it consistently by B-Sticking it. The distance you run before you SD seems to be a huge factor on the direction. I've come across multiple weird results such as extending Spin Slide and performing the dash SE while grabbing.

Just want thoughts on how to further develop this.

 

[Myst_R]

I really look forward to see someone explaining it perfectly, I can't give more feedback for now as I stopped trying to execute it.

But since I'm not alone on it, I'll try again and we'll be able to share the exact timing/input to master it, I'm sure it can be useful

 

[cerealkiller]

I think they secretly keep nerfing Bthrow a little bit everyday... it's useless. I'd rather use Fthrow and chase them in the air now. In the meantime, every time I fight Ness it's a Bthrow kill-fest.

 

[Camalange]

I think they secretly keep nerfing Bthrow a little bit everyday... it's useless. I'd rather use Fthrow and chase them in the air now. In the meantime, every time I fight Ness it's a Bthrow kill-fest.

If you want Bthrow kills, you'll pretty much need rage, have your back to the ledge, and have your opponent at least be 120%.

yay

 

[Myst_R]

As we're speaking about finishers, how do you finish your opponent now that 1.0.8 ended to kill all our powerful kill moves ?

Do you have any particular set up to land a finisher ? Something like the S.O's SD/SC to Dair+footstool.

I'm really looking for some ways to kill characters with a powerful recovery like the villager or ROB

 

[cerealkiller]

As we're speaking about finishers, how do you finish your opponent now that 1.0.8 ended to kill all our powerful kill moves ?

Do you have any particular set up to land a finisher ? Something like the S.O's SD/SC to Dair+footstool.

I'm really looking for some ways to kill characters with a powerful recovery like the villager or ROB

To be honest, practicing how to land a solid Fsmash is a valuable thing these days. Other than that, gimp with springs, Dair off stage, Bairs offstage and stuff. Knowing him from 1.0.1...Sonic kinda sucks now

"SD/SC to Dair+footstool" -> I never managed to do these things

 

[Crabman]

To be honest, practicing how to land a solid Fsmash is a valuable thing these days. Other than that, gimp with springs, Dair off stage, Bairs offstage and stuff. Knowing him from 1.0.1...Sonic kinda sucks now

"SD/SC to Dair+footstool" -> I never managed to do these things

I agree sadly, has anyone else noticed how, since the patches, 6WX hasn't been doing so hot in big tournaments, but more defense oriented Sonics like Static Manny have? it could just be a coincidence.

 

[Luig]

Yes, I have been noticing that.(I have to do magenta because reasons)

 

[Sonic Orochi]

1. Sm4sh heavily favors a defensive style over an offensive one.
2. People asked for Sonic nerfs.
3. Sonic was nerfed.
4. Sonic now has no good approaches AND less low percent KO options.
5. Playing defensively is better because the risk/reward now is ****.
6. People whine but it's their own fault, really.
7. **** them, camp more.

 

[Camalange]

1. Sm4sh heavily favors a defensive style over an offensive one.
2. People asked for Sonic nerfs.
3. Sonic was nerfed.
4. Sonic now has no good approaches AND less low percent KO options.
5. Playing defensively is better because the risk/reward now is ****.
6. People whine but it's their own fault, really.
7. **** them, camp more.

Basically... This.

The more they complain about Sonic and he gets nerfed, the more annoying he'll become. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't want to adapt? Fine, then **** you. We'll play your stupid game.

Sonic has a longer time building up damage with Spin Dash nerfs, minimal safe and early KO options, so do you really think these nerfs are going to encourage us to stop running away? It's disgusting, really.

I'm hoping 6WX and others adapt to the nerfs, because this is not a future I want to see again for Sonic.

Even Joe recently tweeted that he wants to get further in the game and doesn't believe Sonic can on his own anymore.

I hate this game.

 

[Gregory2590]

**** like this makes me glad I'm stuck playing casual-competitive if that makes any sense.

 

[cerealkiller]

I hate this game.

You hate Sakurai not the game...shhhhhh

 

[Damandatwin]

Get out your pocket Sheiks, everyone. /s

 

[Rucent]

Whichever variation Canpy uses, he seems to be executing it consistently and using it practically. It's worth pursuing, I think.

I really want to tinker with this technique. I am thinking of all the possibilities you could maybe do with it, like you do that WaveSpinDash thing, slide from it, then go into a VSDJ, or Spin Shot. Or Spin Dash/Charge, or go in for the grab or pivot grab. Dash Attack even.. I am going to try and experiment a bit tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqszrBoNew This is another video of Kyanpi utilizing this tech, and its so cool.

 

[Camalange]

You hate Sakurai not the game...shhhhhh

There are a lot of people to blame, not just Sakurai.

The community included.

 

[Damandatwin]

Oh that slide....i've done that many times. it's done the same way you would perform a reverse ISDJ except instead of trying to get the jump you shield cancel. The way it was done though in that video was a turn around reverse SDSC though which is somewhat harder because you have to do all those inputs but also pivot yourself the other way.

It's hard to explain in words

Confirmed.. I did the reverse shield-cancelled ISDJ a few times, the timing suuuucks though. I have not managed to do the turn-around version yet.

This is even harder than ISDJ but it seems worth it, it's great for spacing and faster than roll. Guess I'll have to work on it.

 

[Camalange]

****

I can barely even get reverse ISDJ ever...

gotta git gud

 

[Damandatwin]

I'm actually OK at it now. There are times I can get it like 4 or 5 times in a row on FG. It's still pretty hard though..

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I can do it 75% of the tine just i havent quite become confident enough to utilize it in actual matches yet. Same applies to that pivot SDSC. As for how he does that type of slide with it he must be doing some sort of buffered turn around while after inputting the pivot. Definitely gonna try to figure this out.

 

[cerealkiller]

There are a lot of people to blame, not just Sakurai.

The community included.

Yes but he is the face of the developing team, I don't know anybody else there, so he's to blame.
The community is also to blame but the dev. team "chooses" what to hear from the community so...

 

[Damandatwin]

Someone should make a thread to document these weird spin mechanics like spinshot, ISDJ, whatever this new wavebounce thing is... They don't really belong here IMO but they are important.

EDIT: Also the weird short hop you can do out of a SD by pressing A just as you land from the initial hop. I don't know how useful it is but it's there.

 

[J.APS]

Someone should make a thread to document these weird spin mechanics like spinshot, ISDJ, whatever this new wavebounce thing is... They don't really belong here IMO but they are important.

EDIT: Also the weird short hop you can do out of a SD by pressing A just as you land from the initial hop. I don't know how useful it is but it's there.

those are tech, produced by the move set so yeah, they belong here
btw, that short hop works for combos

 

[Camalange]

I don't know anybody else there, so he's to blame.

Flawless logic.

Someone should make a thread to document these weird spin mechanics like spinshot, ISDJ, whatever this new wavebounce thing is... They don't really belong here IMO but they are important.

EDIT: Also the weird short hop you can do out of a SD by pressing A just as you land from the initial hop. I don't know how useful it is but it's there.

those are tech, produced by the move set so yeah, they belong here
btw, that short hop works for combos

They're also literally already documented in my thread...

 

[Damandatwin]

Oh. Yeah that's exactly what I wanted lmao, I never thought to look there.

 

[Luig]

I just don't get why they nerfed bthrow when other kill throws like Mario's, Luigi's ness remain untouched. I get more kills with uthrow than with bthrow now.

 

[Crabman]

Does anyone else use SD + Fair + Double Jump + Fair? It's a true combo that works at low/mid % and it's great for carrying people offstage, especially characters with not the best recovery like Luigi or Falcon.

The only problem is Fair is so unreliable, people seem to fall out of it for no reason. Hopefully they fix that in the next patch instead of arbitrarily nerfing every good thing sonic has going for him.

 

[Damandatwin]

@ Ixisnaugus @ kid craft 24/sonic master @ Camalange

OK guys the Sheik boards figured it out for us. For context, what I'm talking about is how to do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Z2vqX0Q4k&t=11m15s

Deku Tree posted a video showing something called C-bouncing which allows Sheik to basically do a backwards wavedash:

https://youtu.be/vnPuibqUIuA?t=264

Look familiar? Well, the thing Kyanpi was doing in the first video is the same thing, just with side B instead of neutral B. The inputs are not even that hard compared to what we were thinking (assuming you use Deku Tree's control scheme). So anyway that's how you do it.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

well that made things somehow instantly easier. I can do this 90% of the time now. It's easier to than sheiks needles due to us having to just simply continue to hold to the side instead of letting go of the control stick.

 

[Myst_R]

@ Ixisnaugus @ kid craft 24/sonic master @ Camalange

OK guys the Sheik boards figured it out for us. For context, what I'm talking about is how to do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Z2vqX0Q4k&t=11m15s

Deku Tree posted a video showing something called C-bouncing which allows Sheik to basically do a backwards wavedash:

https://youtu.be/vnPuibqUIuA?t=264

Look familiar? Well, the thing Kyanpi was doing in the first video is the same thing, just with side B instead of neutral B. The inputs are not even that hard compared to what we were thinking (assuming you use Deku Tree's control scheme). So anyway that's how you do it.

I can't even do it with Sheik...

EDIT: When I try it with Sonic, he doesn't face the right way :/
EDIT2: Ok, didn't realise the C-stick had to be set to "Attack" and not Smash, indeed, it is really easier to perform now

 

[Sonic Orochi]

That's better, but still a frame perfect BS that seems to boil down to:

1. It works, yay. Nice mixup but not really the awesomest tool for approaching/baiting we wanted (although it's really good, considering our lack of options);
2. It fails: ****. Either you get:
   • a stationary SDSC. Nothing gained, nothing lost;
   • a forward roll. You're ****ed;
   • a forward sliding SDSC. Kinda okay but you're probably ****ed (considering the distance a retreating SDSC should be used from);
   • a HA (really). Not okay and you're probably ****ed.

If you already use attack on C-Stick (I don't), go for it. I don't think it's essential, though.

 

[Camalange]

Wow, lucky day.

Great find, Damandatwin! I fortunately already have my C-Stick set to Attack because of Spinshot, so this is something I will definitely need to practice. I may have to set a shoulder button to Special as the video suggests... Which is fine since I literally never use R. It will just take some getting used to.

I wonder if that would help make things like reverse ISDJ easier too...

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

It kind of does based on me trying this out earlier today.

 

[Myst_R]

Hmm, I think I discovered something about this tech.

I was wondering how we could do this "C-bounce" with our B-side using the same execution shown in the video while it works for Bneutral.

In fact, when we try to "C-bounce" and we perfectly time C-stick+B we obtain a HA, that apparently doesn't benefit from the slide of the "C-bounce" as the HA is not on the ground. But, if we time our C-stick+B with the same timing as a Jump cancel I guess, we obtain our Bside "C-bounce"

Knowin this, it becomes really easier to get the result we expect and not the HA =)

 

[JamesUK7]

Hmm, I think I discovered something about this tech.

I was wondering how we could do this "C-bounce" with our B-side using the same execution shown in the video while it works for Bneutral.

In fact, when we try to "C-bounce" and we perfectly time C-stick+B we obtain a HA, that apparently doesn't benefit from the slide of the "C-bounce" as the HA is not on the ground. But, if we time our C-stick+B with the same timing as a Jump cancel I guess, we obtain our Bside "C-bounce"

Knowin this, it becomes really easier to get the result we expect and not the HA =)

Yeah I keep getting Homing Attacks when trying to C-Bounce...

 

[Camalange]

I get homing attack occasionally too...

The window is weird for the C-bounce. It's not like, super difficult, just strange. I don't know how to explain it.

I think you're supposed to hit C-Stick the opposite direction of Side-B at the same time you input Side-B, but with the way Sonic winds up during the Side-B, I feel like for some reason it works if I hit C-Stick with a very small delay after Side-B. I could just be delusional/experiencing placebo/etc.

Also, Orochi, if you haven't already, I think a link to this data belongs in the OP.

http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-applications-ft-stomp-dair-spike-now-with-video.412410/

 

[Damandatwin]

It definitely is more consistent with a tiny delay between the side B and the c stick. I used to play drums so I think of it as a flam.

 

[Camalange]

It definitely is more consistent with a tiny delay between the side B and the c stick. I used to play drums so I think of it as a flam.

That kind of makes me want to call it the Spin Flam.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I get homing attack occasionally too...

The window is weird for the C-bounce. It's not like, super difficult, just strange. I don't know how to explain it.

I think you're supposed to hit C-Stick the opposite direction of Side-B at the same time you input Side-B, but with the way Sonic winds up during the Side-B, I feel like for some reason it works if I hit C-Stick with a very small delay after Side-B. I could just be delusional/experiencing placebo/etc.

Also, Orochi, if you haven't already, I think a link to this data belongs in the OP.

http://smashboards.com/threads/footstool-applications-ft-stomp-dair-spike-now-with-video.412410/

Will do, eventually. FSJ to Dair spike character list has been in the OP for like months, though.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

So apparently sonic and megaman can cancel their trumping animation with a wall jump the easiest out of the entire cast. When you grab the ledge so long as you hold away from the ledge when or if you do get trumped it will auto wall jump preventing you from getting trumped. This could prove really useful vs characters with large or fast bairs as it means we can punish them or recover before they can hit us

This doesnt work on battlefield though