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Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

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This has been a thing since brawl. If you footstool off sonic during any point of his up-b it allows him to up-b again. Also because your able to footstool off people while they have invincibility that would explain why you managed to get 3 springs. The same thing happens to Mega Man and it also happened to Snake in brawl. It's the same way that if mario or doc use cape on sonic during his special fall animation that he can activate spring again.
 

carrotstien

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I'm not following... at 3:13, sonic uses a third spring. Even though he was footstooled once. It looks like maybe the game registered sonic as reaching the ground as he passed the edge for some reason.

update:---

-thanks Reddit for this gem:
https://gfycat.com/BeautifulWhirlwindBeagle
what was stated there by user "Jrzfine"
"Notice how Mario doesnt seem to lose any of his upwards momentum that entire time? It's really hard to tell but it looks like Mario footstooled Sonic again after he initiated his second spring, giving him a third one."

basically, mario was mashing jump and managed to footstool twice off of sonic. Once during his invincible frames of spring 1, and the second time at the first invincible frame(s) of spring 2. By the time spring 3 came, the last event wasn't spring 2, but footstool.

yep...that explains everything. :)
 
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Camalange

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so

things that we already knew and said

thanks for clarifying our clarification internet

:093:
 

Ixisnaugus

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When you start charging ASD or ASC with no double-jump, I notice if you're close enough to the ground - such that you end up charging a significant portion grounded - when you release, you can DJC the spin, whereas if you're too high when you start charging ASD/ASC before landing, you're of course denied this luxury. The timing appears to be more lax for ASC than ASD.

I couldn't see this mentioned in the OP, though I didn't check the following pages so I apologize if it was mentioned earlier. Does ASD/ASC literally become a grounded SD/SC if only a small amount of the minimum charge time is done in the air before landing and charging the rest? Do we know the reasoning or the numbers behind this?
 

Sonic Orochi

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When you start charging ASD or ASC with no double-jump, I notice if you're close enough to the ground - such that you end up charging a significant portion grounded - when you release, you can DJC the spin, whereas if you're too high when you start charging ASD/ASC before landing, you're of course denied this luxury. The timing appears to be more lax for ASC than ASD.

I couldn't see this mentioned in the OP, though I didn't check the following pages so I apologize if it was mentioned earlier. Does ASD/ASC literally become a grounded SD/SC if only a small amount of the minimum charge time is done in the air before landing and charging the rest? Do we know the reasoning or the numbers behind this?
Hmm, weird, any kind of ASD/ASC that touched the ground during charging would always end up activating BSBS in my tests for the BSBS vid (still in the making..).

I won't be able to test this stuff until like.. the weekend. Are you sure you're not just activating the Spin Special but only actually being in the Spinball form (charging phase, to be more specific*) after you hit the ground?

*Although for SC it's possible to be in the Spinball form without actually having any charges.
 
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Ixisnaugus

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Hmm, weird, any kind of ASD/ASC that touched the ground during charging would always end up activating BSBS in my tests for the BSBS vid (still in the making..).

I won't be able to test this stuff until like.. the weekend. Are you sure you're not just activating the Spin Special but only actually being in the Spinball form (charging phase, to be more specific*) after you hit the ground?

*Although for SC it's possible to be in the Spinball form without actually having any charges.
I was leaning towards this being the reason before I posted. When I use ASD in particular, the timing is tight enough that it kind of looks like Sonic's feet touch the floor while transitioning to the ball form. When I use ASC though, you can start a lot earlier - so he doesn't exactly touch the ground before entering ball form - and get the same result.

It's not a hard thing to do at all though, which is why I don't think I've stumbled on anything new or without explanation. When you get to try it, just use ASD/ASC as close to landing as possible, then ease up your timing each time until it won't allow you to double-jump cancel after releasing anymore. Unless I'm on crack, it really does appear as though you can start charging ASD/ASC a short distance before landing, and on release you can djc the spin state as normal.
 

Sonic Orochi

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I was leaning towards this being the reason before I posted. When I use ASD in particular, the timing is tight enough that it kind of looks like Sonic's feet touch the floor while transitioning to the ball form. When I use ASC though, you can start a lot earlier - so he doesn't exactly touch the ground before entering ball form - and get the same result.

It's not a hard thing to do at all though, which is why I don't think I've stumbled on anything new or without explanation. When you get to try it, just use ASD/ASC as close to landing as possible, then ease up your timing each time until it won't allow you to double-jump cancel after releasing anymore. Unless I'm on crack, it really does appear as though you can start charging ASD/ASC a short distance before landing, and on release you can djc the spin state as normal.
Well, got to try it real quick and yeah.. it's just being in spinball form after touching the ground.

With SC.. pressing down will make you fastfall and then it'll be way easier to get this to work.

I wouldn't rely on this too much though. Maybe only for a few running short hops into ASC but that's about it. Also, if you train well enough, you should also take advantage of this when running off platforms like those on BF.
 

Ixisnaugus

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Well, got to try it real quick and yeah.. it's just being in spinball form after touching the ground.

With SC.. pressing down will make you fastfall and then it'll be way easier to get this to work.

I wouldn't rely on this too much though. Maybe only for a few running short hops into ASC but that's about it. Also, if you train well enough, you should also take advantage of this when running off platforms like those on BF.
Yea you're right, it's nothing particularly noteworthy, just something that was really curious to me so I wanted to know the cause. I figure if it's consistent enough, then it's nice to know that on those occasions you'd like to start charging ASD/ASC before landing, you'll have access to the djc after releasing.
 

Camalange

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Well, it's finally here. Pretty much one year in the making..


Well worth the wait.
Can everyone upvote the reddit post for this.

I know its a long shot but if it becomes popular enough it might get noticed at Nintendo and get patched.
It's a shame it's not getting more traction on Reddit...

I doubt it'll ever get patched, but at least the information is out there now.

:093:
 
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Well I mean unless this makes the front page in smashboards......it could fibd its way into the general publics view at some point given its out there now.
 

Myst_R

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Well, it's finally here. Pretty much one year in the making..


Really really really really thank you for this amazing job ! I am really glad to be part of a community with people who are so invested ! Thank you again !
 

Sonic Orochi

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Magic percentages:
0~35%: SDH to footstool to Spring lock. Repeat. Then finish with weak hit Nair to grab to pummel to uthrow to Nair. Should end with 50%ish.
50%ish: SCR to SCJ (to footstool) to Dair spike. If it doesn't kill, should end with 70%ish.
Few hits to 75%.
75%~90%: dtilt to jab lock follow up.
90% onwards: good luck getting a read/grab for a kill.

What do you guys think?

Some quick info:
  • for jablocking, do NOT use jab at maximum range. It will pop the enemy up instantly;
  • AFAIK, using the GC Controller will hinder some inputs. For example, when using the Pro Controller, I'm able to grab the ledge, SD away, jump cancel into Fair/Bair while still holding B down. With the GCC, I have to let go of the B button, otherwise no aerial will come out whatsoever;
  • if you have A+B Smash active, failing to ISDJ will result in a SD, even if you're still holding B down. Initially, I thought this was because of the point above but it seems to be just A+B Smash.
 
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Ixisnaugus

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Magic percentages:
0~35%: SDH to footstool to Spring lock. Repeat. Then finish with weak hit Nair to grab to pummel to uthrow to Nair. Should end with 50%ish.
50%ish: SCR to SCJ (to footstool) to Dair spike. If it doesn't kill, should end with 70%ish.
Few hits to 75%.
75%~90%: dtilt to jab lock follow up.
90% onwards: good luck getting a read/grab for a kill.

What do you guys think?
Looks good enough. Bit of a disconnect between the first two points [0~35% 50%ish] and the third point [75%~90%] (guaranteed setups vs relying on a failed tech) but I get the overall point.

Possible low percent alternative:

0-20%: Uair (2nd hit) Autocancel > advancing Bair > Nair for ~30% (~25% if hit with Nair 8% box) sets up a strong Spin Dash frame trap so start charging, then go into grab > X follow up or release into etc. You can get upwards of 50% depending on how you choose to follow up.

Might make a small video of the above to test some new recording equipment. In general, Uair ac is a great starter, and we have something guaranteed up to typical death percents. Though I don't know the advantage values just yet, I'm pretty sure it's safe when used as close to the ground as possible, and puts us in a really good position if used while crossing over the opponent, assuming they're shielding. It sucks against tiny characters and form factors though.
 

Sonic Orochi

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Interesting. Looking forward to that video!

I too find that an autocancelled Uair is good but it's so difficult to time it correctly. Well.. training, training, training..
 

Ixisnaugus

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Probably the easiest way to use it practically is on the descent of the SD small hop against someone conditioned to shield against the threat of SD/SC. The small hop itself is hard to time if you have your double jump, so I like to use SD to land if I don't have my dj, and if they shield, I just try to hop over them to cross them up; assuming you hit it, the SDJ hitbox generated when you hop keeps them in shieldstun, so you can hit Uair on the way down (I don't think it's a true blockstring technically, though most characters shouldn't be able to OoS with anything that can hit us between the hits. I'll have to test this properly at some point).

Funnily enough, if you're in BSBSK you can do this from a grounded SD really easily since you don't have to time anything and just mash jump after you release SD.
 
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There's also starting at 15% on most middle weights on BF and Dreamland auto cancelled 2nd hit uair full hop bair > frame cancelled nair > bair > bair for a guaranteed 60%. Kind of hard to pull off consistently though.
 

Sonic Orochi

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Funnily enough, if you're in BSBSK you can do this from a grounded SD really easily since you don't have to time anything and just mash jump after you release SD.
Interesting. That's pretty much the only application I see of activating BSBS&K at will. You can buffer the short hop SDJ during the SDH too, so no need to mash.

There's also starting at 15% on most middle weights on BF and Dreamland auto cancelled 2nd hit uair full hop bair > frame cancelled nair > bair > bair for a guaranteed 60%. Kind of hard to pull off consistently though.
So, I know someone has to land on a platform at some point but who is it? Sonic or opponent? And when?
 
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You have to land on the platform with the Nair and have it frame cancel in order to get the full hop bair to connect fast enough to true combo. In order to get the 2nd bair you would have to have started this combo from a platform and land on the center platform.
 
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Okay..I watched the BSBS video. so...is there anything cool I can do in BSBS? All I learned from the video is how to get out of it avoid sding.
 

Camalange

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Yeah.

It's pretty much learning how to not **** yourself over.

Isn't Sonic cool?

:093:
 

Ixisnaugus

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Possible low percent alternative:

0-20%: Uair (2nd hit) Autocancel > advancing Bair > Nair for ~30% (~25% if hit with Nair 8% box) sets up a strong Spin Dash frame trap so start charging, then go into grab > X follow up or release into etc. You can get upwards of 50% depending on how you choose to follow up.

Might make a small video of the above to test some new recording equipment. In general, Uair ac is a great starter, and we have something guaranteed up to typical death percents. Though I don't know the advantage values just yet, I'm pretty sure it's safe when used as close to the ground as possible, and puts us in a really good position if used while crossing over the opponent, assuming they're shielding. It sucks against tiny characters and form factors though.
Finally got around to doing this! You should be able to get the idea. Everything after the Nair depends on your opponent and what they may be able to do, but there isn't much time for them to make an informed decision of how to respond, so following up isn't difficult. Some characters can just get grabbed outright, but Spin Dash can help with frame trapping.

 
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Camalange

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I've done the start-up, but haven't extended it with Nair.

Nice. I'll try doing that now.

:093:
 

Kytos

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Long time no see guys!! It's been a while. I was playing Smash online when I recently started experimenting with Sonic, and then something interesting came up. I'm not sure how practical this is, or how this will improve Sonic's meta, but I think it's something I need to share with you guys.

Not to mention, I've been gone a minute, so I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet.
 
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Camalange

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If you're referring to the spring shifting the momentum of a spin, it's known.

I did silly combos with it once.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

:093:
 

Kytos

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Yeah. It's that, but also the way he lands and slides to the opposite side while facing left, despite him facing right after the spin charge released.
 

ShadowLink84

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It's because of the way Sonic's spring is programmed. Iimagine when he bounced off it the game resets where he is facing. SO when you spin and you go left, the momentum is changing because its what he is facing now. Hence why you slide right while facing left.

Or its spaghetti code.

Btw nice to meet you.
 
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I won a tourney set just yesterday with that setup vs a diddy. He airdodge the spin charge but I managed to read it for the uair kill confirm
 

Sonic Orochi

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Yeah. It's that, but also the way he lands and slides to the opposite side while facing left, despite him facing right after the spin charge released.
The spin state lasts about (if not exactly) 2 seconds. Sonic just started to turn around right after he landed but then the spin ended, putting him in the screech stop animation while facing left.
 

Myst_R

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Hey guys, could you tell me what are the real Sonic's OoS options ?

I recently saw Komorikiri using a short hop Uair OoS but I can't figure out when to use it in my game :/
 

Camalange

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The real Sonic's?

That's deep.

:093:
 

Myst_R

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The real Sonic's?

That's deep.

:093:
I made a mistake ? :/ I'm not english, I know I don't perfectly speak english ^^

By this, I meant "do we have viable options OoS ?" I don't really know how the OoS works in Sm4sh. Do we call OoS any move executed right after releasing the shield or a move necessarily done right after jump cancelling the shield ?

Given the right definition, what are the good/best options Sonic has OoS and when do you use attacks OoS ?
 

Camalange

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I made a mistake ? :/ I'm not english, I know I don't perfectly speak english ^^

By this, I meant "do we have viable options OoS ?" I don't really know how the OoS works in Sm4sh. Do we call OoS any move executed right after releasing the shield or a move necessarily done right after jump cancelling the shield ?

Given the right definition, what are the good/best options Sonic has OoS and when do you use attacks OoS ?
That's quite alright, I was just teasing you a little. The way you phrased it makes it look like you were saying the real Sonic, as opposed to Sonic's real options.

I completely appreciate you asking questions, in your second language nonetheless.

OoS options are pretty reliant on the situation. There's no perfect solution. It depends on spacing, what the frame data is on move's that hit you, etc. These all change what will effectively punish something in time, or what may be the most optimal punish.

:093:
 

Myst_R

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That's quite alright, I was just teasing you a little. The way you phrased it makes it look like you were saying the real Sonic, as opposed to Sonic's real options.

I completely appreciate you asking questions, in your second language nonetheless.

OoS options are pretty reliant on the situation. There's no perfect solution. It depends on spacing, what the frame data is on move's that hit you, etc. These all change what will effectively punish something in time, or what may be the most optimal punish.

:093:
Oh ok I understand the thing with "real Sonic's" haha ^^

In term of terminology in Sm4sh, is a jab considered an OoS option ? I spoke with some melee players, and they seem to mean that in melee, what is called an OoS option, is a move that cancels shield lag. What about Sm4sh ?

I have an other question for everybody, what are the reliable options to pressure the shield with Sonic ? I guess none of our aerials are effective as they're too punishable but I hope I'm wrong ^^
 
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