Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Invicibility around start up

Edit: was from frame 11-19 (used sony vegas to count) better to wait for datamine

 

[Naragacu]

So, about dair. Before the niconico match, there was some speculation that dair could be used to escape juggling since it's disjointed. That theory was generally not accepted then, I think, but that exact situation actually occured in the match: https://youtu.be/oPLNKCfoPUw?t=1m10s
Bayonetta had an aerial hitbox out, but Corrin's dair broke right through.

I lack the competitive knowledge to judge, so I'd like to ask, is this something that could establish itself as a situational juggling breaker? Or did it only happen because neither player was familiar with the characters? It looked like it might be punishable, at least by characters with fast startup moves, but again, I can't say.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

So, about dair. Before the niconico match, there was some speculation that dair could be used to escape juggling since it's disjointed.

<--------
It depends because if something like Cloud's Uair will stop it then not so much.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

yay

edit: o wait this was posted last page lol

question, though, is Corrin actually sticking into a wall?

now that I look at it more, it looks like he's sticking into one of those corners of the Smash Run stage

 

[Maraphy]

Well, considering that Corrin can only reasonably cover tech in place and roll in with her kit, it's likely she'll want to look towards potential damage from those tech options, i.e. she'll be looking to cover them, so if I tech in place I risk eating tipper F-Smash or charged DFS -> possible (but limited) followups on the getup frames, at lower percent's I'm in CQC range for any of Corrin's CQC options, at which point if those options actually happen, which are fairly likely, I take damage and lose stage control anyways. If I roll in I risk getting punished even harder since I am then in DFS's optimal range as well as in even closer range of Corrin's CQC, so then I take even more damage and lose stage control or am placed in an otherwise disadvantageous position. Hell, even in the GIF you posted Bayonetta got punished with a Dash Attack for rolling in and lost stage control anyways.

Bair's pushback means I can just walk and powershield and eventually I'll be back near center stage since Corrin is moving away from me (granted a player probably won't just spam AC Bair, but my point stands), DFS has a trivial amount of shield damage/stun , is very easy to react to, and because of its albeit slight however still existent endlag that won't stop me from moving back towards center stage either.

Fsmash is also potentially reactable.

The point is, why would I tech in place or roll in and risk getting punished hard (since that is the range in which Corrin can effectively and should effectively punish), take damage, and then lose stage control, when I can temporarily relinquish stage control and work to get it back while only taking minimal (if any) damage?

You said it yourself, "Tech Chase Throws," if I can roll away and easily escape a tech chase why wouldn't I choose to do that?

I never said it couldn't be used for setting up edge situations, I made a point to state that positioning from the throw itself seems its major practical utility.

I'll let you take center stage all day long if I have a percent lead and can avoid the risk of losing it because I chose to tech to within punishable range. Especially if I can pester you with stuff from a distance, if not, then you still have to approach me anyways. If I don't have a percent lead, then yeah I'll have to approach after giving up stage control, that's life, but it's better than being down by additional percent in the process.

All of this is sound, but did you consider b-throwing someone from center stage, throwing them towards the ledge? In that scenario if they roll away from Corrin they won't gain any distance and could potentially eat an F-smash / aerial / dash attack. It'd require some precision and knowledge of the move's knockback so that you don't just throw them onto the ledge.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

yay

edit: o wait this was posted last page lol

question, though, is Corrin actually sticking into a wall?

now that I look at it more, it looks like he's sticking into one of those corners of the Smash Run stage

Yep! Our wall pinning dreams seem to be coming true on Wednesday. I never thought this would actually be a thing, so I'm hyped for the recovery mix-ups. I would imagine only the jump and cancel options will be available from wall pin; do you all think Kamui will get an extra jump if she pins Dragon Lunge offstage? Now that I think about it, does onstage Dragon Lunge jump count as her normal grounded jump or her double jump? The former seems more likely, but it's another one of those small details we don't know for sure yet (unless it was shown in the footage and I missed it).

This will make things very interesting offstage though, for sure. Will we Bair over to the underside of the stage, pin, and then play mindgames with whether we'll jump to ledge or cancel to Dragon Ascent? Will we Dragon Ascent to the ledge -> ledge drop -> pin just below the ledge -> jump -> Dragon Lunge pin onstage -> even more mixups? It might not actually be this versatile in practice, but it's very fun to think about the possible shenanigans. This move is really shaping up to make Kamui a slippery, hard-to-predict swordie.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I want to know if we can pin recovering opponents into the wall. If that's possible, we could set up for some eZ edgeguards. Maybe kick them into the stage, jump back and B-Air?

Also, if it's possible to pin in the wall, does that mean Dragon Lunge is one-time use in the air (ie: Bouncing Fish), or can it only pin one time in the air?

 

[sunfallSeraph]

I want to know if we can pin recovering opponents into the wall. If that's possible, we could set up for some eZ edgeguards. Maybe kick them into the stage, jump back and B-Air?

Also, if it's possible to pin in the wall, does that mean Dragon Lunge is one-time use in the air (ie: Bouncing Fish), or can it only pin one time in the air?

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if the pin mechanics are intact on the wall. There's no telling on what limitations might be imposed on the aerial version; wall-cling stalling shouldn't be a problem for most characters in theory because planking isn't a thing anymore, but then you have your Little Macs who can't actually go offstage to punish Kamui for timeout trolling. So even though the move doesn't have invincibility or dramatic burst movement like BF, there might still need to be a cap on it to prevent degenerate stall tactics that certain characters can't deal with.

Then again Sonic is a thing but we don't talk about that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, I've heard Pit mains say that most of his matchups are between -1 to +1.

You could just ask, yaknow... I'm right here.

Outside of the tippy top tiers Pit's worst matchups are -1, yeah. Saying he doesn't have anything better then +1 though, that's an exaggeration. Pit's a high tier and there's some veeery bad characters in this game still. Next other viable characters though, Pit doesn't have a lot of +2s, if any at all.

Oooo, nice point. DL > let go > ftilt reset > DL > let go > ftilt reset > DL > let go > ftilt reset.... lol? Well, until ftilt stops resetting. I wonder if you will have enough time to punish a missed tech though since letting go of the DL looks like it has some end lag https://youtu.be/_qj8O07Kg_I?t=320

If I'm understanding the mechanics of DL correctly that'd technically be an infinite, so I kinda doubt that'll be a thing...

LancerStaff
You insist on assuming his grab is bad when we have not seen the full range of it.
A Samus and a Robin could both grab that opponent at that range. You gonna tell me that they have the same grab range?

I said it wasn't special judging from the animation... Can't think of a standing grab that doesn't match the animation in a positive way. Mostly they're worse then they appear.

No, because I quite literally never said that. Make sure the point you're arguing against actually exists next time.

 

[Deleted member]

All of this is sound, but did you consider b-throwing someone from center stage, throwing them towards the ledge? In that scenario if they roll away from Corrin they won't gain any distance and could potentially eat an F-smash / aerial / dash attack. It'd require some precision and knowledge of the move's knockback so that you don't just throw them onto the ledge.

I was referring specifically to cases where a tech option enables the opponent to get away from potential tech chases (almost) completely, which was the case in the GIF in question since Bayonetta was thrown from the edge towards center stage, and thus had the space to tech roll away and avoid most if not all of Corrin's punish options.

In the case where you're thrown towards the ledge and cannot escape before hitting the ground, well, then it's different, at that point it becomes more of a game of "pick an option and pray that Corrin doesn't cover it" since you can't get away with a tech option. But considering Corrin can cover all of the tech options or missed tech in that position with low angle Fsmash you'll probably just have to hope that Corrin mistimes it.

 

[Nu~]

I said it wasn't special judging from the animation... Can't think of a standing grab that doesn't match the animation in a positive way. Mostly they're worse then they appear.

No, because I quite literally never said that. Make sure the point you're arguing against actually exists next time.

It's not exactly my fault if you can't understand what I meant by that. The point I am arguing against is your assumption that Corrin's grab is unimpressive based on where we saw him grab. It could be more or it could be equal to what we saw.

Considering we haven't seen the full range of it (just recycling my point) you can't exactly make that claim. Literally all we can say is "we don't know yet"

My example was Samus and robin. It wasn't a different claim

 

[Aunt Jemima]

i thought raziek told you guys to stop replying to lancer

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Spoiler: Does this help

 

[Brandybuck]

Corrin looks pretty fine with ground/air movement

Spoiler: DFS shield stun

Spoiler: More stuff

Fair > Uair could be kill confirm... DFS has so much momentum shift

In the first GIF, what's that one aerial move Corrin uses right as the percentage resets? It has some kind of water thing so it's not Dair... The only moves I can think of that have a water thing around him are a landed counter (which ...no) or an Up-B but...it doesn't look like it?

Shiek counter?
Also, how many here are 3ds players? I'm one.Just asking.

I've been one ever since Xenoblade X decided to never leave my WiiU lol

 

[LancerStaff]

It's not exactly my fault if you can't understand what I meant by that. The point I am arguing against is your assumption that Corrin's grab is unimpressive based on where we saw him grab. It could be more or it could be equal to what we saw.

Considering we haven't seen the full range of it (just recycling my point) you can't exactly make that claim. Literally all we can say is "we don't know yet"

My example was Samus and robin. It wasn't a different claim

I don't
see
anything
impressive
about
the grab.

What's hard to understand about what I said? Fat chance it's going to be heavily disjointed... If you really want to know what I think about the grab I think it's going to physically comes out slow like most swordsman's. Every swordsman's grab but the Pits, the Links, and Mii Swordfighter's comes out f7. The Pit's and Swordfighter get f6, the Links at 12 since they're tethers. Marth and Roy's have good range to make up for it, but everybody else, not so much.

i thought raziek told you guys to stop replying to lancer

Then everybody else came in to say I'm not full of horse****.

Does this help?

Kinda, but the camera's zoomed out quite a ways and the gif's not a good resolution. Hard to tell if that's a standing grab or a dash grab. Can't really watch the video right now...

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

In the first GIF, what's that one aerial move Corrin uses right as the percentage resets? It has some kind of water thing so it's not Dair... The only moves I can think of that have a water thing around him are a landed counter (which ...no) or an Up-B but...it doesn't look like it?

I think is was blue glow for kill count update

 

[TheLegendaryFoxFire]

Not sure if this is Move-set related or not but in the Smash Direct Overview of Corrin when they are going back to stage and one is doing Back-Air you can see that the Female Corrin's Dragon wings are actually the same color as her skin! So I guess that is something cool!

 

[Raziek]

Frame 7 is not slow for a grab, just what game are you even playing?

Sheik's is frame 6.

A WHOLE ONE FRAME, HOLY GODDAMN, CALL KOTAKU.

i thought raziek told you guys to stop replying to lancer

Take this guy's advice, people.

 

[Planty]

Not sure if this is Move-set related or not but in the Smash Direct Overview of Corrin when they are going back to stage and one is doing Back-Air you can see that the Female Corrin's Dragon wings are actually the same color as her skin! So I guess that is something cool!

Yup. We've known that for a bit. Contributions are always welcome though.


Also can we talk about her jab 1? If you look at the pictures, the range is absolutely bonkers. We know it's fast but I'm curious about the endlag. Because if it's low then jab 1 on shield will be hilariously good.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Some thoughts on Corrin:
-D-Tilt looks really good as a combo starter. The Huge Disjoint and low amount of endlag and startup makes me believe that this move can be very useful in the neutral as an approach (assuming Corrin has a good walk speed that is).
-Side-B looks pretty good as a landing / recovery option. One interesting application of it is using it on the stage instead of sweetspotitng the ledge, which can screw over a lot of character with good ledge guard games (ie Sheik).
-F-air looks solid as a spacing tool due to its great range. Might be a good combo starter as well (saw it combo into Uair a few times in the matches).
-Neutral-B seems pretty solid as a projectile since it has an insanely large hitbox. It looks really nice as an edge guarding move vs characters with Linear recoveries due to that ridiculous hitbox size.
-Down-b looks like one of the best counters in the game. From what I have seen so far, it has the same slow down effect as shulk's counters and hits from both sides, allowing corrin to punish crossups.
-U-tilt looks like a solid juggling tool due to its amazing active frames and range.

 

[OceloT42]

Anyone getting Corrin straight upon release?
I can't till Thursday ;_;

 

[Spark31]

Anyone getting Corrin straight upon release?
I can't till Thursday ;_;

Actually wednesday

Anyways, I just realized something kinda cool.

DL hanging above ledge + Cancel = EZ ledge trump on reaction (even if they mix up their recovery).

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

Anyone getting Corrin straight upon release?
I can't till Thursday ;_;

this is more appropriate for the social thread.

 

[OceloT42]

this is more appropriate for the social thread.

I know, I was just bored.
On another note, I'm considering Fair>Uair>Dragon Ascent/Counter Surge(depending on their reaction) as a viable combo.Thoughts?

 

[LordShade67]

DL hanging above ledge + Cancel = EZ ledge trump on reaction (even if they mix up their recovery).

I actually had something similar to this. Like:

Walk off -> DL the ledge/wall/whatever -> read their action(be it airdodge or whatever) -> Cancel(Or Back Kick) -> Double Jump -> Dragon Lunge(At the recovering opponent)/BAir/etc.

 

[Deleted member]

I know, I was just bored.
On another note, I'm considering Fair>Uair>Dragon Ascent/Counter Surge(depending on their reaction) as a viable combo.Thoughts?

To be frank, "boredom" is no excuse for making posts that are irrelevant to the topic of a thread AKA off-topic.

In regards to your combo question, I doubt Uair's endframes will be incredibly short and on top of that Dragon Ascent has very notable startup, so it will very likely not be able to true combo out of aerials.

Both of the things you mentioned do exist as options (and I use that term in the strictest dictionary sense, as should be noted), but unless the opponent is at low percent I can't see the counter or Dragon Ascent being useful since the opponent will be sent too far away unless you'd be willing to DJ after them... and counter, in which case you're better off going for aerials if their in range, Dragon Ascent does exist as an airdodge read option and its large hitboxes certainly help, but there is still a notable risk in choosing to go for it and be left in helpless if you miss, since the opponent will be out of hitstun and able to punish you if they're close enough at that point. At lower percents you may as well get the free percent with more aerials instead of trying to go for a hard counter read or Dragon Ascent read.

 

[Kadc]

something small to note here is how good the speed at which the para travels at and how fast it comes out seems so good to be after look at the vid a couple times also it seems even when sweet spotted corrin might have a hitbox at the edge with the wing being a disjoint i saw bayo take 1% from standing on the ledge when corrin sweet spotted back up

 

[OceloT42]

To be frank, "boredom" is no excuse for making posts that are irrelevant to the topic of a thread AKA off-topic.

In regards to your combo question, I doubt Uair's endframes will be incredibly short and on top of that Dragon Ascent has very notable startup, so it will very likely not be able to true combo out of aerials.

Both of the things you mentioned do exist as options (and I use that term in the strictest dictionary sense, as should be noted), but unless the opponent is at low percent I can't see the counter or Dragon Ascent being useful since the opponent will be sent too far away unless you'd be willing to DJ after them... and counter, in which case you're better off going for aerials if their in range, Dragon Ascent does exist as an airdodge read option and its large hitboxes certainly help, but there is still a notable risk in choosing to go for it and be left in helpless if you miss, since the opponent will be out of hitstun and able to punish you if they're close enough at that point. At lower percents you may as well get the free percent with more aerials instead of trying to go for a hard counter read or Dragon Ascent read.

Oh all right,I'm sorry.
You're right, it would be better to go for more aerials than to actually commit to a special,but having played MK, up-Bing after a string is sort of hardwired into me now.
But a Counter read is still a solid option, especially against Dair-happy players.I can wreck Cloud's Dair combo breaker with this.
Was there a slowdown mechanic,though?I haven't noticed it.Can somebody post a GIF?

 

[Spark31]

Don't have the gif, but I have a slight question. How exactly did that dragon lunge come out during the Bayonetta 60fps 1v1. We all assume that Corrin auto-canceled his back air and then immediately used a short hop dragon lance. However, has anyone considered that this dragon lance could have been a special canceled landing? Some moves in the game can be special canceled instead of auto cancelling. It would explain the immediate dragon lance.

EDIT: Found the clip

 

[OceloT42]

Don't have the gif, but I have a slight question. How exactly did that dragon lunge come out during the Bayonetta 60fps 101. We all assume that Corrin auto-canceled his back air and then immediately used a short hop dragon lance. However, has anyone considered that this dragon lance could have been a special canceled landing? Some moves in the game can be special canceled instead of auto cancelling. It would explain the immediate dragon lance.

Jolt Haymaker comes to mind, as I mentioned a few posts back.
Though I dont know whether that's "special cancelling", but probably Dragon Lunge has early release,like JH.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh all right,I'm sorry.
You're right, it would be better to go for more aerials than to actually commit to a special,but having played MK, up-Bing after a string is sort of hardwired into me now.
But a Counter read is still a solid option, especially against Dair-happy players.I can wreck Cloud's Dair combo breaker with this.
Was there a slowdown mechanic,though?I haven't noticed it.Can somebody post a GIF?

Well, the thing about Meta Knight's Stairway to Heaven is that it is guaranteed if the MK gets the inputs right due to the workable endframes of his Uair and the relatively low startup of Shuttle Loop (6 frame startup with 27 FAF for Uair, 7 frame startup on Aerial Shuttle Loop).

Fun fact: Meta Knight's aerials apparently have bad landing lag, lowest is Nair with 16 frames and highest is Dair with 22, I never would have guessed.

Yes you'll be able to punish Dairs with Counter, but it can still be risky because it leaves you open if you guess the opponent's reaction wrong, at which point they can get free damage. That said, the fact that Corrin's counter kills vertically means that it's that more imposing when juggling near the top of the screen, but it's still risky nonetheless.

 

[OceloT42]

Don't have the gif, but I have a slight question. How exactly did that dragon lunge come out during the Bayonetta 60fps 1v1. We all assume that Corrin auto-canceled his back air and then immediately used a short hop dragon lance. However, has anyone considered that this dragon lance could have been a special canceled landing? Some moves in the game can be special canceled instead of auto cancelling. It would explain the immediate dragon lance.

EDIT: Found the clip

Definitely Dragon Lunge without shorthop, look at his feet, they are surrounded by that whirlpool that appears when he performs grounded DL.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

It came out frame 10 every time I checked, but I'm still waiting on release and dataminers.

 

[Pedker]

I wanted to take a look at some pictures in this album (that haven't already been discussed, of course)

Spoiler: Picture Analyses

The range on his jabs look just amazing...

D-Smash looks like it has amazing range, too.

How is Corrin taking this stance? Is it a certain move? Shielding, maybe?

The posting thingie is saying that I can only upload 3 pictures, which makes absolutely no sense. I'm going to double-post (or more than double). I'm sorry; If anyone knows how to upload more photos in a single post, please let me know.

 

[Trainer_Nate]

Unsure if anyone has seen this video. Any ways I think Corrin's Dthrow derives from where he is on top of Azure/Aqua. It can be found at 0:15. I just find it very creative haha. What do you guys think? Obviously Corrin does not hit her in the actual scene... (I think? I imagine not lmao)

@0:15

@1:12

 

[Pedker]

Part 2 of picture analysis:

Spoiler: Picture Analyses 2

What move is Corring using here? It kind of looks like a D-tilt, but it might be going in the wrong direction..?

His counter stance is THE OWAIN POSE!!! I'll probably use this as a taunt instead of his actual taunts

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Mechaglacier]

when corrin does release does anyone else think there will be any chance of having any footstool combos such as Up-air to footstool like falcon's

 

[Deleted member]

I wanted to take a look at some pictures in this album (that haven't already been discussed, of course)

Spoiler: Picture Analyses

The range on his jabs look just amazing...
View attachment 94686

D-Smash looks like it has amazing range, too.
View attachment 94683

How is Corrin taking this stance? Is it a certain move? Shielding, maybe?
View attachment 94689

The posting thingie is saying that I can only upload 3 pictures, which makes absolutely no sense. I'm going to double-post (or more than double). I'm sorry; If anyone knows how to upload more photos in a single post, please let me know.

You can mass upload the pictures to Imgur.

That said, the link to the Imgur album of all of these images was posted earlier today, so you can just copy the image links over and use the image embed button, which doesn't have such a tight limit if it does at all.

EDIT: The link to the Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/8ZFlT

 

[Delzethin]

when corrin does release does anyone else think there will be any chance of having any footstool combos such as Up-air to footstool like falcon's

That could have some potential. Since Corrin's dair is a divekick, we could do some footstool->dair->other stuff kind of like what Greninja does.

 

[Raziek]

Unsure if anyone has seen this video. Any ways I think Corrin's Dthrow derives from where he is on top of Azure/Aqua. It can be found at 0:15. I just find it very creative haha. What do you guys think? Obviously Corrin does not hit her in the actual scene... (I think? I imagine not lmao)

@0:15

@1:12

Does not warrant its own thread. Merging to moveset thread.