Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[LancerStaff]

I'm thinking Corrin will be faster than we think because of the paralyzer. It would be completely stupid for there to be a move that stuns with absolutely no follow ups.

I'm not understanding why you use logic to say how Corrin might be bad, but you completely avoid logic when it will benefit Corrin. I do not understand. Also, I must have missed the post of you comparing Corrin to Zelda because I see zero similarities. And if I have to hear you validate one of your reasons because "it would make sense cause FFA" one more time I'm gonna go insane.

Lucas's Nair exists. There's worse designed moves in Smash. I mean, DFS looks safe on hit at least.

I'm not really ignoring it, I'm just not mentioning it... Prefer to talk about the negatives because the positives have been done to death.

I don't understand why you think them balancing for FFAs is silly. If they really cared about 1v1 balance they would of fixed Sheik and Zelda a looooong time ago for starters.

Zelda's known for having a lot of FFA tools and nothing else. It's not hard to draw similarities when many of his main moves are similarly designed... No, really, even if you can follow-up on DFS, how well can you? They didn't imply that he'd have any significant grab reward in the trailer, not once did they show us any aerial combos, and dash attack is... A dash attack. If it's supposed to have easy follow-ups then it's going to have low damage itself, but then I don't see any of his other non-smashes having incredible damage output either. You're looking at like 16% total off of an insanely slow attack. You could just pick ZSS at that point and get like double off a grab.

I think he compares them because they're both slow characters with powerful moves.

What he forgets is that Zelda has to use her terrible mobility to get in your face to deal damage, which isn't feasible. Corrin can just F-smash you from halfway across the stage whenever he wants, and he might even stay safe while doing so.

You know that's not happening... Fsmash isn't going to be a spacing move. May be safe on shield, but if the startup and endlag are bad it just won't matter. Considering that a character's Fsmash is almost always a character's slowest and most powerful move I have my doubts.

You're kinda proving my point, actually. Zelda can technically space with her specials from across the stage, but none of them put up any real pressure. Corrin's specials and the aforementioned Fsmash look just as reactable.

We don't even know if Corrin is actually slow or not. We can't gauge run speed from a 30 fps trailer.

Why are we still hanging tightly to this false belief?

Don't recall saying he has slow movement. Saying he's fast... I could just as easily call that a false belief.

 

[Delzethin]

We don't even know if Corrin is actually slow or not. We can't gauge run speed from a 30 fps trailer.

Why are we still hanging tightly to this false belief?

Might be fear. It'd be really disappointing if Corrin was too slow to properly use all of those interesting tools, wouldn't it? So naturally, there's a desire to get his mobility figured out to put those fears to rest.

At the very least, his frame data looks unusually fast for a swordsman. That'll make him better in disadvantage than what you'd expect from someone with a disjoint. We're thinking his nair and fair come out like Frame 5 and his jab Frame 3, aren't we?

 

[alguidrag]

Well, looking at the bad points of a character that not been released is never a good thing, do what i say about the persons "try to look at the good things because the bad will appear naturality and good will not"

 

[OceloT42]

I was thinking of ways to justify that they would make Corrin fast or atleast moderate speed, but then I thought of this.
We know that Robin has a projectile that traps and shoots the opponent away(That X-Bolt thingy). We also know that Robin is the slowest character in game. So, speaking purely from an observers point of view(having never mained Robin myself but faced him a couple of times),I say that it's the weapon least suited to be in his arsenal, because unless you fire it at point blank range, you can't get anything out of it.
So what if they do the same to Corrin? What if the only followup is that bite? What if they make him very slow?
If anyone can dispute this and put forth their theories,I'd only be too pleased to be proven wrong.
Thoughts?

 

[Wolfheart77]

You get around 11% damage, a fairly horizontal knockback, and it works wonders in doubles. I've caught someone in Arcthunder before to have my partner stick a Fusion Sword through them. Also, dthrow->Arcthunder is a thing and they are close enough to follow up. It's possible if dthrow is a combo throw that dthrow->DFS would work.

 

[alguidrag]

Well, in mid distance Robin can go to follow ups after arc thunder (one of patch lowered the lag) or even predict the DI to a levyn aerial
Maybe the only planned folow up is the bite, but you know that who will main him will make even a shot-shot combo by baiting the oponents air dodge, he looks the same run speed as Marth in my vision, so everything will be based on his lag, that seems very low(at least lower than of most of my characters), so i think if you are that guy that play sonic/zss/sheik you will find him slower than a turtle, but if you play a character in average speed, his speed will look good or at least aceptable, and remember Corrin in humam form is fast and omega yato gives him boost in speed so i think he will be at least average

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, looking at the bad points of a character that not been released is never a good thing, do what i say about the persons "try to look at the good things because the bad will appear naturality and good will not"

There's a fine line between optimism and just completely dreaming. I've had people say that you could pin somebody forever and time people out... I mean, really?

You get around 11% damage, a fairly horizontal knockback, and it works wonders in doubles. I've caught someone in Arcthunder before to have my partner stick a Fusion Sword through them. Also, dthrow->Arcthunder is a thing and they are close enough to follow up. It's possible if dthrow is a combo throw that dthrow->DFS would work.

Arcthunder comes out on f11... DFS looks more like a 15 or 20. Maybe it could, but that'd also be with no charge. Doing anything after it is unlikely.

 

[alguidrag]

Well dreaming in something like that is realy bad, but somethings can surprise us so lets wait to Kamui entrance

 

[Zult]

The reason Robin is slow is not only because of all the projectiles he has, but also the smash attacks in the air. Do we really want Robin moving everywhere with that thing in his hand. It would be cool if Robin became faster when the levin sword ran out though.

Now look at Corrin's aerials. He has one aerial that looks like it will kill at reasonable percents which is back air. That's normal considering most back airs (all?) kill. Some just kill earlier than others. And he has only one projectile. While it seems at the very least usable, that does not give any reason to make Corrin as a slow a snail considering there is Sheik, Zss, Mario, Pit, the list goes on. Having one projectile doesn't mean you'll be slow. And the one projectile he has stuns. So would it not make sense to make Corrin fast enough to follow up after it? Corrin looks to be average weight and size. Why are people predicting him to be as slow as someone like Dedede or Ike.

You could say they'll make him slow because of the range. But, are we forgetting that's what start up lag is for? And end lag. Shulk has the monado arts to help him, so bringing that up as a counter point is useless. At the very least, Corrin will have average run speed. Maybe a little bit faster, who knows. You can even tell a little bit from the trailer.

 

[Wolfheart77]

Arcthunder might come out that soon but the projectile itself is still fairly slow and doesn't hit for a few frames after from dthrow. I've missed a few from people jumping from my grabs. That doesn't mean Arcthunder isn't viable; it just means it's slow and requires either a read or a setup (or someone being really really dense). There's a reason Elthunder is better for spacing and Thoron is better for sniping.
I would love to have Robin with Marth's speed and grab range (keeping Robin's personal grab game) but then he'd be way too overpowered.
I'd rather confirm our throw game and air game atm, personally. Throw games are incredibly important in the meta from what I can tell and I prefer to take any of my characters to the air. Watching Delzethin's video makes me think that dthrow won't be a combo throw; it seems to throw way too far. Might be good to rack up damage. Up throw being a potential kill throw means it's probably like Marth's up throw (way too high to follow up on) or Robin's back throw (perfect spot for a well-timed Thoron... not much else unless you go offstage to spike as they recover). Fthrow or bthrow seems our best options for potential combo throws but I think fthrow will also be too bad. Maybe a quick fsmash after that (or after dthrow like was shown in the direct) will be the most viable from that. But we didn't see how far away Samus was launched after the bthrow so that's what I'm holding out on. Hopefully it's not like Marth's grab game.
As for air game, I like to see that our bair aids in recovery and is a potential kill move. I enjoy bair kills, personally (and hey, it shows off draconic elements <3). Fair and up air seems pretty standard for sword characters. I wonder if we'll get another aerial kill move besides bair; all of Robin's Levin aerials have kill potential but he does have two sets of aerials (his bronze aerials suck for killing), Marth's tippered fair can kill and dair can spike, and Roy can kill with fair and dair as well, and I'm not sure about Ike but doesn't his up air kill? and his dair is also a spike. I know Lucario also has two killing aerials (bair and up air) and Cloud has up air, with fair and dair both spiking. Out of Corrin's options, I don't see fair or up air killing (Dragon Fang was flashed extensively in in the trailer so the sword-based aerials I don't think would be as strong) and honestly, dair is looking like more of a suicidal divekick than anything. I can see me at least needing to adjust to this. If it's like Greninja where you pop up after hitting someone, then yeah I'd see it as a spike but the multi-hit properties tell me that won't be the case. Nair looks like a fairly good spacing move, though, and I can't wait to see its use after Corrin's meta develops. Probably be labbing things myself.
I'd love to share my own personal thoughts on his specials but I'm heading to class. Will check back later.

 

[OceloT42]

The reason Robin is slow is not only because of all the projectiles he has, but also the smash attacks in the air. Do we really want Robin moving everywhere with that thing in his hand. It would be cool if Robin became faster when the levin sword ran out though.

Now look at Corrin's aerials. He has one aerial that looks like it will kill at reasonable percents which is back air. That's normal considering most back airs (all?) kill. Some just kill earlier than others. And he has only one projectile. While it seems at the very least usable, that does not give any reason to make Corrin as a slow a snail considering there is Sheik, Zss, Mario, Pit, the list goes on. Having one projectile doesn't mean you'll be slow. And the one projectile he has stuns. So would it not make sense to make Corrin fast enough to follow up after it? Corrin looks to be average weight and size. Why are people predicting him to be as slow as someone like Dedede or Ike.

You could say they'll make him slow because of the range. But, are we forgetting that's what start up lag is for? And end lag. Shulk has the monado arts to help him, so bringing that up as a counter point is useless. At the very least, Corrin will have average run speed. Maybe a little bit faster, who knows. You can even tell a little bit from the trailer.

Your words comfort and soothe.
I shouldn't be too pessimistic about DLC characters after all. Look at Cloud(I main him like mad)

 

[Merfect]

There's a fine line between optimism and just completely dreaming. I've had people say that you could pin somebody forever and time people out... I mean, really?

With that logic, we might as well throw all speculation out the window and write it off as "dreaming". I think, for the most part, we've made fairly realistic predictions in this thread. But the fact is that we won't truly know anything until the character is released. So what's wrong with some optimistic speculation?

 

[LancerStaff]

The reason Robin is slow is not only because of all the projectiles he has, but also the smash attacks in the air. Do we really want Robin moving everywhere with that thing in his hand. It would be cool if Robin became faster when the levin sword ran out though.

Now look at Corrin's aerials. He has one aerial that looks like it will kill at reasonable percents which is back air. That's normal considering most back airs (all?) kill. Some just kill earlier than others. And he has only one projectile. While it seems at the very least usable, that does not give any reason to make Corrin as a slow a snail considering there is Sheik, Zss, Mario, Pit, the list goes on. Having one projectile doesn't mean you'll be slow. And the one projectile he has stuns. So would it not make sense to make Corrin fast enough to follow up after it? Corrin looks to be average weight and size. Why are people predicting him to be as slow as someone like Dedede or Ike.

You could say they'll make him slow because of the range. But, are we forgetting that's what start up lag is for? And end lag. Shulk has the monado arts to help him, so bringing that up as a counter point is useless. At the very least, Corrin will have average run speed. Maybe a little bit faster, who knows. You can even tell a little bit from the trailer.

Robin definitely needs some work... Realistically if his Levin aerials had the expected start-up of such a move (minus some because of durability) then his mobility wouldn't have to be garbage to compensate, and he really wouldn't lose anything either.

I think you need to stop with the "the move only makes sense if you could combo with it" bit... There's literally nothing stopping Sakurai from giving the move the stun effect for flavor. If it were supposed to be a good combo tool they would of mentioned it when they were talking about the move, and you're just ignoring how improbable it appears to be to land the move and then act upon it. Even if it did like 30% from a combo regularly it's looking more and more like you'd have to be pretty touched in the head to get hit by it.

With that logic, we might as well throw all speculation out the window and write it off as "dreaming". I think, for the most part, we've made fairly realistic predictions in this thread. But the fact is that we won't truly know anything until the character is released. So what's wrong with some optimistic speculation?

Frame 3 jab is realistic? Camping with side B (explicitly to mess with Sheik and ZSS's gameplans) is realistic? Fsmash being a zoning move? Heck, what about the whole "the other DLC newcomers were good so Corrin has to be good" thing is incredibly unrealistic.

There's optimism, then there's the blind hope that Corrin's going to have some OP aspect to abuse like Melee Marth range on fast normals. I mean, come on now. You have to admit there's a lot of ridiculous ideas are floating around.

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

Frame 3 jab is realistic? Camping with side B (explicitly to mess with Sheik and ZSS's gameplans) is realistic? Fsmash being a zoning move? Heck, what about the whole "the other DLC newcomers were good so Corrin has to be good" thing is incredibly unrealistic.

There's optimism, then there's the blind hope that Corrin's going to have some OP aspect to abuse like Melee Marth range on fast normals. I mean, come on now. You have to admit there's a lot of ridiculous ideas are floating around.

how is F-smash not a zoning tool?

 

[Merfect]

Frame 3 jab is realistic? Camping with side B (explicitly to mess with Sheik and ZSS's gameplans) is realistic? Fsmash being a zoning move? Heck, what about the whole "the other DLC newcomers were good so Corrin has to be good" thing is incredibly unrealistic.

There's optimism, then there's the blind hope that Corrin's going to have some OP aspect to abuse like Melee Marth range on fast normals. I mean, come on now. You have to admit there's a lot of ridiculous ideas are floating around.

There are some ridiculous theories, I'm not saying that I agree with all of them. But I'd like to see a bit less pessimism. With the footage that we're presented with, Corrin is a character that's showing a lot of promise. You can't ignore that.
Let me ask you, are you looking forward to anything in particular when Corrin comes out?

 

[meowmere]

There are some ridiculous theories, I'm not saying that I agree with all of them. But I'd like to see a bit less pessimism. With the footage that we're presented with, Corrin is a character that's showing a lot of promise. You can't ignore that.
Let me ask you, are you looking forward to anything in particular when Corrin comes out?

To forestall his answer, he will probably try to find out about every single one of Corrin's bad aspects. Or see if Corrin can go under final destination.

Jokes aside though, it's good to have a bit of pessimism. But like Merfect said, a bit less of it would be beneficial.

And to be honest with you guys: If you are really into that one specific character and you want to make him work, you'll find a way. There's always one. No, I'm not iving in a dream land, Of course, a Shiek has it easier than, let's say, a Zelda or a King Dedede. But if you play one of those characters, you will find a weakness in the top tier characters that you can actually exploit.

loolololol just kidding can't win against Shiek lololol

 

[Deleted member]

ITS TIME FOR NEW COMPARISONS!

Spoiler: Dragon Fang Shot (shooting)

By the look of it, Corrin's projectile comes out faster than ZSS para shot, but ZSS return faster to normal position.

LET'S BE OPTIMISTIC and say Diddy is at 0% in the trailer FOR COMPARISON SAKE.

Spoiler: Dragon Fang Shot (Stun)

Corrin's projectile puts Diddy in a longer stun than ZSS. Mostly because there is some sort of landing lag added, because Corrin's projectile sends you flying.

 

[theyellowflash26]

Stun is based on charge not percent.

 

[LancerStaff]

how is F-smash not a zoning tool?

It's a laggy smash attack. Most likely reactable with that range... Second part of Shulk's Fsmash is f23. Mii Gunner Fsmash is f17, but it's not even that powerful. Megaman's Fsmash is f19 at point blank, f40 at the end of it's range. Even if it's just the tip that kills I'm not expecting anything better then f20, and charging it for mix ups wouldn't work against most characters either.

There are some ridiculous theories, I'm not saying that I agree with all of them. But I'd like to see a bit less pessimism. With the footage that we're presented with, Corrin is a character that's showing a lot of promise. You can't ignore that.
Let me ask you, are you looking forward to anything in particular when Corrin comes out?

Believe it or not I'm trying to see the potential... Just don't see what the character's supposed to actually do. I see a lot of zoning moves that won't zone against an opponent with a brain, some decent at best normals, average mobility, and an iffy looking grab game. If you're looking for the safeish swordsman with good-to-great everything else, he already exists. And there's two of him. I mean, for the most part they're trying to make everybody stand out and do their own thing... Corrin's thing as far as I can tell is being a safer Zelda with protective hitboxes on whatever laggy move he's using.

Mostly looking forwards to the patch itself. Probably the last real chance for any significant shake-ups... Wondering if they'll tone down Dark Pit's side B after the ridiculous buff, or if they'll buff anything on Pit to "compensate" or something. Unless you count removing a largely useless tech of sorts they haven't been nerfed so I'm fairly optimistic.

ITS TIME FOR NEW COMPARISONS!

By the look of it, Corrin's projectile comes out faster than ZSS para shot, but ZSS return faster to normal position.

The stun is dependant of the % of the target but LET'S BE OPTIMISTIC and say Diddy is at 0% in the trailer FOR COMPARISON SAKE.

Corrin's projectile puts Diddy in a longer stun than ZSS. Plus there is some sort of landing lag added, mostly because Corrin's projectiles sends you flying.

Uh, dude... The gif of DFS starts with him already with the move out.

Diddy flying back was probably because he took more knockback, could be an angle difference that could be jumped out of too. Him being stunned longer doesn't mean much because ZSS gets her follow-ups off her tether grab and great mobility... DFS still looks laggy.

 

[Deleted member]

My bad then. On the second gif they had the same amount of stun when I went frame by frame so trailer was very likely uncharged too.

Uh, dude... The gif of DFS starts with him already with the move out.

Actually, it doesn't

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

It's a laggy smash attack. Most likely reactable with that range... Second part of Shulk's Fsmash is f23. Mii Gunner Fsmash is f17, but it's not even that powerful. Megaman's Fsmash is f19 at point blank, f40 at the end of it's range. Even if it's just the tip that kills I'm not expecting anything better then f20, and charging it for mix ups wouldn't work against most characters either.



Believe it or not I'm trying to see the potential... Just don't see what the character's supposed to actually do. I see a lot of zoning moves that won't zone against an opponent with a brain, some decent at best normals, average mobility, and an iffy looking grab game. If you're looking for the safeish swordsman with good-to-great everything else, he already exists. And there's two of him. I mean, for the most part they're trying to make everybody stand out and do their own thing... Corrin's thing as far as I can tell is being a safer Zelda with protective hitboxes on whatever laggy move he's using.

Uh, dude, I'm sorry, but what are you doing in this thread if you apparently care about the patch more than Corrin?

edit: I went through the video, and yeah, Corrin has ~24 frames of ending lag on F-Smash, but we don't know the IASA frames on the move.

 

[alguidrag]

I think lancer loves zelda, he mentioned her here more than corrin itself

Jokes aparts if we would compare corrin to a alredy character in game, we would compare to the swordsman and charizard (becuase dragon things)

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

I think lancer loves zelda, he mentioned her here more than corrin itself

Jokes aparts if we would compare corrin to a alredy character in game, we would compare to the swordsman and charizard (becuase dragon things)

Corrin has literally nothing in common with Charizard.

 

[Nu~]

Corrin has literally nothing in common with Charizard.

He has as much in common with Charizard as he does with Zelda :^)

alguidrag was joking btw

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

He has as much in common with Charizard as he does with Zelda :^)

alguidrag was joking btw

they said "jokes aside" before saying Charizard though

 

[Planty]

So now Corrin's F-smash is react-able? LancerStaff , you read the competitive impressions thread, don't you? Wasn't it agreed upon in like June or something that you can't even react to stuff like ZSS's grab? Do you think that you could react to Cloud's F-smash? You can't. You can't react to Corrin's F-smash either. You're laughing at people for making unrealistic statements, but just read over some of the stuff you say.

 

[Merfect]

Believe it or not I'm trying to see the potential... Just don't see what the character's supposed to actually do. I see a lot of zoning moves that won't zone against an opponent with a brain, some decent at best normals, average mobility, and an iffy looking grab game. If you're looking for the safeish swordsman with good-to-great everything else, he already exists. And there's two of him. I mean, for the most part they're trying to make everybody stand out and do their own thing... Corrin's thing as far as I can tell is being a safer Zelda with protective hitboxes on whatever laggy move he's using.

On the contrary, I think Corrin's zoning tools actually look pretty decent. A lot of his attacks also seem to knock his opponent upwards, even his Fair and Ftilt surprisingly. This could lead to a lot of juggle setups and putting the opponent into a disadvantageous position off of one hit from neutral.

Another thing worth noting is that Corrin appears to have some really fast normals for a sword character. Things like jab and Nair which appear to come out as early as frame 3, as people have stated before. And Nair appears to auto cancel out of a short hop too. I know you have a hard time believing that kind of frame data on sword character, but what if Corrin does have moves that fast? That's a big plus! It's not that ridiculous anyways considering that characters like Little Mac and ZSS have even faster jabs.

What I'm most worried about with Corrin is kill setups. We don't know enough about his throws to determine if they can lead to a kill, but Ryu and Cloud have shown that you don't need good throws to be a good character. I guess it then comes down to how early he can kill with an aerial and/or how reliable his Smash attacks are. Other than that, I can see Corrin be pretty good at edge guarding. Dropping off the ledge and throwing out a Nair could be enough to kill a lot of characters when they recover low, and Bair has been shown to kill offstage. He can probably even score a tipper Fsmash against an unsuspecting opponent when recovering considering it's reach. If they airdodge to avoid it, then they're probably forced to recover low, leading to a potential Nair edgeguard.
Just speculating.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

ITS TIME FOR NEW COMPARISONS!

Spoiler: Dragon Fang Shot (shooting)

By the look of it, Corrin's projectile comes out faster than ZSS para shot, but ZSS return faster to normal position.

LET'S BE OPTIMISTIC and say Diddy is at 0% in the trailer FOR COMPARISON SAKE.

Spoiler: Dragon Fang Shot (Stun)

Corrin's projectile puts Diddy in a longer stun than ZSS. Mostly because there is some sort of landing lag added, because Corrin's projectile sends you flying.

Don't want to be a negative nancy, but isn't the ZSS gif from 60fps footage and the Corrin is 30fps or did you make the ZSS in 30fps? Also looks like Diddy vs DFS stun could of jumped away instead of hitting the ground.

If real since Corrin's has more endlag the few extra seconds of stun look like the only follow up would be a dash attack that diddy could probably shield... maybe dash grab, but dont have example of dash grab range.

Me personally I feel like Sakurai only wants DFS used at close-mid range and offstage. How often does full charge ZSS para or Greninja shuriken land in high level play. ZSS uses full charge to get you to block and gets a grab. I think greninja barely gets a grab from full charge on block.

I still think If your opponent shields in your face a Non/or Charged DFS will be safe if bite (which most likey will) pushes them back.

Edit: Also wanted to add alot of High tiers like Mario/Rosa/Ness have anti procetile skills so that lag at the end of DFS could be do or die and since it moves faster it gives you less time to react on deflect.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't want to be a negative nancy, but isn't the ZSS gif from 60fps footage and the Corrin is 30fps or did you make the ZSS in 30fps?

Don't worry about this.

Trailer is 30fps. Replays are 30fps. I wouldn't make a comparison and post it here if the framerates were not the same.

 

[Deleted member]

Edit: Also wanted to add alot of High tiers like Mario/Rosa/Ness have anti procetile skills so that lag at the end of DFS could be do or die and since it moves faster it gives you less time to react on deflect.

Mario is the only one of those characters that can cause a serious problem since he can just cape reflect DFS on reaction, Ness will likely just absorb it (and he'll still have to close the distance afterwards since he doesn't possess an incredibly fast projectile); yeah Ness can F-Smash reflect, but that's a bit different because the startup frames make it harder for him to do it unless he sees it coming (AKA it's less likely that Ness will Fsmash reflect on reaction as opposed to PSI Magnet on reaction). Rosalina will just negate it, but after she does negate it its not like she'll be able to punish very well either since she also doesn't possess a fast (or long-range) projectile.

Unless your opponent's character has a limited OoS game or punish-after-projectile-negation game (aka after Gravitational Pull, PSI Magnet, etc) I foresee it being rather unsafe to use DFS in the short-mid range generally speaking, as long as a player is good at power-shielding it could be risky, I don't think the target character will necessarily require an anti-projectile option in order to be able to punish it in the short-mid range.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I'm not very worried about DFS being reflected. The subsequent bite may be able to clank it out.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Mario is the only one of those characters that can cause a serious problem since he can just cape reflect DFS on reaction, Ness will likely just absorb it (and he'll still have to close the distance afterwards since he doesn't possess an incredibly fast projectile); yeah Ness can F-Smash reflect, but that's a bit different because the startup frames make it harder for him to do it unless he sees it coming (AKA it's less likely that Ness will Fsmash reflect on reaction as opposed to PSI Magnet on reaction). Rosalina will just negate it, but after she does negate it its not like she'll be able to punish very well either since she also doesn't possess a fast (or long-range) projectile.

Unless your opponent's character has a limited OoS game or punish-after-projectile-negation game (aka after Gravitational Pull, PSI Magnet, etc) I foresee it being rather unsafe to use DFS in the short-mid range generally speaking, as long as a player is good at power-shielding it could be risky, I don't think the target character will necessarily require an anti-projectile option in order to be able to punish it in the short-mid range.

Luma and Ness dash grab if you jump cancel the absorb... If you're close mid range you have to power shield the shot then you have to shield the bite which can be mixed up.

Edit: Rosa can lunar land if you SH grav pull

I'm not very worried about DFS being reflected. The subsequent bite may be able to clank it out.

Thought all electric/stun moves are transcendent and cant be clanked with.

 

[theyellowflash26]

Thought all electric/stun moves are transcendent and cant be clanked with.

Lol no. You can clank ZSS paralyzer and Robin Thunder spells besides Thoron.

 

[ARGHETH]

Thought all electric/stun moves are transcendent and cant be clanked with.

I wish. Thunder variants clanks with everything.
Also, I tested Paralyzer in training mode and arrows and Spin Attack clank, so I'm presuming unless DFS is specifically stated to be transcendent, it'll clank with projectiles/hitboxes.

 

[Pazzo.]

*Looks through thread*

The rumors were true.

 

[Deleted member]

Luma and Ness dash grab if you jump cancel the absorb... If you're close mid range you have to power shield the shot then you have to shield the bite which can be mixed up.

Edit: Rosa can lunar land if you SH grav pull



Thought all electric/stun moves are transcendent and cant be clanked with.

Notice that I said:

Unless your opponent's character has a limited OoS game or punish-after-projectile-negation game (aka after Gravitational Pull, PSI Magnet, etc) I foresee it being rather unsafe to use DFS in the short-mid range generally speaking, as long as a player is good at power-shielding it could be risky, I don't think the target character will necessarily require an anti-projectile option in order to be able to punish it in the short-mid range.

Ness/Lucas can only dash-grab you if they're in that range and Rosalina can't do anything with Lunar Landing unless she is also in that range, at which point you're taking the risk that I mentioned.

I was meaning their ability to punish from about mid-range length away and greater, at which distance a reflector can cause issues for any projectiles with some lag but a simple negation cannot unless the character can punish from that distance or close the gap in a very short amount of time, which neither Ness, Lucas or Rosa can do.

Regardless of the fact that you can mix up charge timing for the bite, unless it does DK level shield damage a character can just hold shield and may still be able to punish it afterwards, it certainly doesn't have the endframes of Ganon's Usmash.

And no, ZSS's paralyzer is not transcendent.

See here. for the list of transcendent moves.

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

*Looks through thread*

The rumors were true.

w-what rumors?

 

[alguidrag]

I seeing the day that a ness will absorve DFS and be killed by the bite

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

I seeing the day that a ness will absorve DFS and be killed by the bite

it's going to be a gifycat (edit: meant gfycat) on r/smashbros, mark my words

 

[alguidrag]

Gifycat? What is this?