Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Can anyone make 30fps gifs of clouds jab 1/uptilt/and Ftilt frame by frame side by side of Corrin's? Also with the same stage like the DFS gif and ZSS?

Would that help solve the how fast is jab problem?

Same could be done vs Marth fair / ike Dtilt for better frame estimations.

 

[Merfect]

(Obv. just theorycrafting from the trailer but stay with me):

While I think it is certainly reasonable to assume that it will have strong KO power because tippers (Like Marth's tipper U-Smash, although I assume Corrin's tippers will have larger hitboxes and not be dumb hard to hit somewhat consistently), I feel like it may somewhat struggle in regards to being able to catch landings simply because it's hitbox is so vertically focused, certainly Corrin's mobility seems decent, which means she'll probably be able to follow airborne opponents as they come back down decently enough, but once again because the move's hitbox seems so vertically focused it will require Corrin to position directly underneath the opponent as they're landing, which is of course often harder to do than it sounds.

Contrarily other characters like Ike and Dedede who have horizontally-wide-reaching arc hitboxes can catch landings (with U-Smash) much more easily because they don't require as much precision in regards to spacing for the U-Smash.

Granted, ROB exists as a possible counter-example because his U-Smash is also rather vertically focused but I would contend that ultimately his U-Smash hitbox is still notably horizontally wider than Corrin's.

Making the assumption that all of Corrin's Smashes will have tipper sweetspots, I imagine that the U-Smash sweetspot will be located at the very top, which I feel could potentially pose some problem in the sense that the tipper will be located so vertically high (because Corrin's range seems to be so long) that opponents who are airdodge -> fastfalling down/airdodging down (which isn't the best but sometimes the only option in desperate situations) will literally fall past it and simply get caught by the base of the U-Smash, which will likely have notably less knockback than the tipper. But again I feel like even that case (of weighing the effects of base vs. tippered U-Smash) is situational considering that Corrin's U-Smash seems so vertically focused hitbox-wise.

I was just kinda thinking that we could catch people with Usmash in the same way that Sheik does during a string, even
assuming that it has a tipper effect to it.

*raises hand* That was most likely moi. It's merely a speculation of mine, but hey.

That was definitely you. I thought it was some good speculation.

 

[Nu~]

Yes, the game conceptualized and advertised as the FFA fighter isn't going to give priority to FFAs, and it's completely nutso to think otherwise. Like... Really.

I seem to recall Pazzo. defending my stance on the issue, or at least being much more accepting then you're being. Thinkaman came another time and had to tell everybody my opinion's not the horse**** you're making it out to be, too. I think we all agree it's time to move on and just accept each other's opinions for what they are.

It's the fact that you aren't considering 1v1 at all when it comes to game balance in smash. As if Sakurai didn't say himself that he balances the game around both game modes. There is also the fact that the dev team continues to makes changes according to what is oppressive in 1v1s. Tell me how luigi's pre patch throw game was more oppressive in FFAs than 1v1s, or villager's pre patch exploding balloon trip.

I'm not denying that FFA has more of a lean, what I'm saying that you are blind to the fact that 1v1 has a place in smash balance as well. With everything you have said so far, FFAs were the only support you had. 1v1 balance was kicked to the wayside.

And alright, that's fine if you have other people supporting you. Don't see what that has to do with my stance though. Even then, yes, while thinkaman has said that FFAs have a place in game balance (which I agree with), he never said that FFAs have as MUCH of an impact that you are implying


But this is going too far off topic. Let's get back to constructive speculation

 

[LancerStaff]

Can anyone make 30fps gifs of clouds jab 1/uptilt/and Ftilt frame by frame side by side of Corrin's? Also with the same stage like the DFS gif and ZSS?

Would that help solve the how fast is jab problem?

Same could be done vs Marth fair / ike Dtilt for better frame estimations.

Kinda sorta... Lost information is lost information. We wouldn't concretely prove anything. Losing up to even three frames is within reason. One at the beginning, one right before the move comes out, and potentially a randomly dropped frame in there too.

And, uh... How exactly was the frame data gathered again? Was it all on hit or just going by the visual? Because if it's the visual, well, Mewtwo doesn't exactly have a f4 Nair.

 

[Pedker]

Kinda sorta... Lost information is lost information. We wouldn't concretely prove anything. Losing up to even three frames is within reason. One at the beginning, one right before the move comes out, and potentially a randomly dropped frame in there too.

I agree, wholeheartedly. However, Corrin's release is very close; February is three days away, and the translation from the direct said something along the lines of "You'll be able to become familiar with Corrin before you play FE Fates" Fates releases on the 19th, so a release date should be dropping soon, and it's likely to be before the 19th. I think doing a comparison like this would be a fun thing to do. It's ok if it's not 100% accurate, for now.

I'm not experienced in video scrapping of the sorts, so I can't do it. Maybe someone else can come through, though

 

[Zult]

(Obv. just theorycrafting from the trailer but stay with me):

While I think it is certainly reasonable to assume that it will have strong KO power because tippers (Like Marth's tipper U-Smash, although I assume Corrin's tippers will have larger hitboxes and not be dumb hard to hit somewhat consistently), I feel like it may somewhat struggle in regards to being able to catch landings simply because it's hitbox is so vertically focused, certainly Corrin's mobility seems decent, which means she'll probably be able to follow airborne opponents as they come back down decently enough, but once again because the move's hitbox seems so vertically focused it will require Corrin to position directly underneath the opponent as they're landing, which is of course often harder to do than it sounds.

Contrarily other characters like Ike and Dedede who have horizontally-wide-reaching arc hitboxes can catch landings (with U-Smash) much more easily because they don't require as much precision in regards to spacing for the U-Smash.

Granted, ROB exists as a possible counter-example because his U-Smash is also rather vertically focused but I would contend that ultimately his U-Smash hitbox is still notably horizontally wider than Corrin's.

Making the assumption that all of Corrin's Smashes will have tipper sweetspots, I imagine that the U-Smash sweetspot will be located at the very top, which I feel could potentially pose some problem in the sense that the tipper will be located so vertically high (because Corrin's range seems to be so long) that opponents who are airdodge -> fastfalling down/airdodging down (which isn't the best but sometimes the only option in desperate situations) will literally fall past it and simply get caught by the base of the U-Smash, which will likely have notably less knockback than the tipper. But again I feel like even that case (of weighing the effects of base vs. tippered U-Smash) is situational considering that Corrin's U-Smash seems so vertically focused hitbox-wise.

Yes, all of Corrin's smashes have tippers. Down smash only has a tipper on the back hit though. You can see the sparks of where it's located.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

why are people here trying to judge a character's viability when all we have is a 2 minute trailer with a bunch of random camera angles, altering speeds and is only at 30fps

wtf

 

[Pedker]

why are people here trying to judge a character's viability when all we have is a 2 minute trailer with a bunch of random camera angles, altering speeds and is only at 30fps

wtf

Because a thread exists that is titled "Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread."
Because it passes time.
It creates wonder and excitement.
It makes the release day come to us more quickly.
That's it lol

 

[ARGHETH]

why are people here trying to judge a character's viability when all we have is a 2 minute trailer with a bunch of random camera angles, altering speeds and is only at 30fps

wtf

Because we have nothing better to do until Corrin comes out.

 

[LordShade67]

why are people here trying to judge a character's viability when all we have is a 2 minute trailer with a bunch of random camera angles, altering speeds and is only at 30fps

wtf

BECAUSE IT'S FUN! :D

But in all seriousness, there's not much we can do other than wait, so why not. *shrugs*

 

[meleebrawler]

why are people here trying to judge a character's viability when all we have is a 2 minute trailer with a bunch of random camera angles, altering speeds and is only at 30fps

wtf

Because Corrin costs money, and some no-fun-having people don't want to spend on an "unviable" character.

 

[Pazzo.]

We can really only run in circles at this point.

LancerStaff seems to think that similar moves = similar gameplay.

In any case Corrin, in my opinion, seems to be a specialized zoner. The long range smashes seem to be able to cover him up close, as the Omega Yato seems to have a hitbox while charging.

That's not even counting N-air's range, or the quick "get off me" f-tilt, which will probably make him someone whom you want to stay away from, lest you grabbed, countered, etc.

Just my two cents. I'm not interested in debating something so subjective with little experience in the subject (Corrin).

 

[sunfallSeraph]

We can really only run in circles at this point.

LancerStaff seems to think that similar moves = similar gameplay.

In any case Corrin, in my opinion, seems to be a specialized zoner. The long range smashes seem to be able to cover him up close, as the Omega Yato seems to have a hitbox while charging.

That's not even counting N-air's range, or the quick "get off me" f-tilt, which will probably make him someone whom you want to stay away from, lest you grabbed, countered, etc.

Just my two cents. I'm not interested in debating something so subjective with little experience in the subject (Corrin).

What do you all typically define as a zoning playstyle in this game, as opposed to one revolving around spacing ala Marcina & Roy? When I hear zoning I typically think of projectile zoning such as how Robin, Tink, ROB, etc. use their projectiles to limit both the 'zone' the opponent can safely occupy and the options they can use to retaliate. Whereas with spacing I'm thinking about Marth attempting to control the neutral game by denying approaches with his disjoints, which I would personally differentiate from zoning since Marth can only try to control the area immediately around him rather than other parts of the stage. From that perspective, I'm seeing Kamui as the more reactive spacing type like most of the FE swordies (Ike seems able to be more proactive through the use of safe aerials and differently tuned mobility, but that's an aside) with the added twist of having particularly large and long-reaching disjoints. Of course, Shulk has this too, but he also has access to the Monados and some particularly junky frame data, meaning he has to play more defensively in vanilla and then use his rebalanced stats to... do other things. It's possible Kamui could also end up having junk numbers too, but like others I'm currently leaning more towards her being balanced with poor or otherwise finicky KO options. Her gameplan would then lead into attempting a reactive spacing game that's capable of both stuffing bad approaches and harassing opponents in the midrange that is normally a deadzone for this type of character. When opponents get in, Kamui still has suitable get-off-me buttons, burst mobility for escapes, and potentially stock ending gambits with Dragon Lance.

What do you all think? Does that gameplan mesh with your visions of the trailer?

 

[meowmere]

In any case Corrin, in my opinion, seems to be a specialized zoner. The long range smashes seem to be able to cover him up close, as the Omega Yato seems to have a hitbox while charging.

I really don't really think Corrin will be protected up close by charging his f-smash. The hitbox on Omega Yato seems way to small to effectively cover Corrin. You could easily attack him from the back or from above.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because Corrin costs money, and some no-fun-having people don't want to spend on an "unviable" character.

Actually I have to buy him for testing and an impulsive need to have everything sans Mii costumes but yaknow, whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you all typically define as a zoning playstyle in this game, as opposed to one revolving around spacing ala Marcina & Roy? When I hear zoning I typically think of projectile zoning such as how Robin, Tink, ROB, etc. use their projectiles to limit both the 'zone' the opponent can safely occupy and the options they can use to retaliate.

Spoiler: Zoning Stuff.

I take the same general view myself, as I consider "zoning" to be the definition of "space control" in its strictest sense, and multiple projectile options can most easily allow for the most influence over the most amount of space on the stage (in the usual case).

I play Link of course, who falls into this "strict" definition of a zoner well (IMO) although he has to rely on his CQC (which has unfortunate high damage potential but low speed meaning he gets out-boxed (read out-boxed as in "losing a boxing match" AKA CQC) more often than not when he has to do so) when his projectiles don't confirm well into any of his reliable CQC kill options, which is an unfortunate circumstance (whereas Tink's bombs are very confirm friendly, but part of that is because Tink is way more mobile than Link so he has an easier time confirming).

If I were to get technical I would call Link a "dichotomous zoner" since IMO his gameplan is usually to force people out of his space and then keep them out, i.e. offensively zone and then defensively zone although he should be ready to take advantage of any opportunities where his projectiles allow him to follow with his strong CQC options.

Other projectile characters fall a bit differently into this "offensive/defensive zoning" dichotomy of course, but a full discussion of my thoughts on that would be a rather extreme digression from the topic of this thread.

It's possible Kamui could also end up having junk numbers too, but like others I'm currently leaning more towards her being balanced with poor or otherwise finicky KO options. Her gameplan would then lead into attempting a reactive spacing game that's capable of both stuffing bad approaches and harassing opponents in the midrange that is normally a deadzone for this type of character. When opponents get in, Kamui still has suitable get-off-me buttons, burst mobility for escapes, and potentially stock ending gambits with Dragon Lance.

What do you all think? Does that gameplan mesh with your visions of the trailer?

Spoiler: I typed a lot of words, sort of.

I agree with that general view.

IMO, Kamui seems like a character that most others will really need to respect in the mid-range simply because Kamui's range is so large and because she has so many options that can, as you said, harass the hell out of other characters who don't have the options to deal with that sort of stuff in the midrange.

What comes to my mind is Kamui's ability to harass projectile characters/zoners in this midrange. Certainly, some zoning characters in Smash 4 I feel may be more comfortable in the mid-long to long range (Duck Hunt comes to mind, and R.O.B. too, although R.O.B can usually mix his zoning projectiles with aggression to be more active in the mid range. I would say Robin to an extent, although depending on the opponent's character I feel Robin prefers to be in the mid-range since Arcfire is still fairly low-risk (as well as the mid-range being the extent of Arcfire's effective range in general anyways) and because it allows Robin to follow up from Arcthunder, while also maintaining Elthunder as a good general projectile because it charges so quickly and has improved cooldown now); that said, I feel like they will often like to step into the midrange at least some of the time.

Using Link as an example (because he's my character), I consider him to be a midrange/mid-long range zoning character because his go-to projectiles (bomb/boomerang) are only effective (bombs because limited throw distance) or most effective (boomerang, IMO) in this range. In the long-range game Link only has Smash Input Boomerang (which isn't that threatening because the damage dissipates at the edge of its range and because it's very easy to react to) and charged Arrows, which deal good damage/are fast when charged but are otherwise situational outside of when Link can get full charge in the long-range (and that said, arrows straight-up lose to shield and with practice can be power-shielded effectively).

The issue that Link's midrange game has, however, is that his (best) midrange projectile options have notable startup, Gale Boomerang has it's first active hitbox frame on frame 27 and bomb pulls take 17 frames.

So, often I can see a situation where Link is just trying to do Link projectile stuff in the mid range and then Kamui can just walk up and be like "Oh you're going to throw your boomerang [or pull a bomb], go ahead and hold this DFS, Dragon Lunge or tipper F-Smash in the process."

I feel generally that Kamui has the potential to be a "harassing character" in the midrange, having the reach to harass and space further than characters like Marth (this space which is one where most characters can't do anything but shield to deal with it) while also carrying DFS as a longer-range "harass" option.

I feel that one of her fundamental problems (aside from the aforementioned potential KO problem) will be dealing with rushdown characters since Kamui has to space even further than Marth does in order to get the highest reward out of her Smash Attacks while also not having much in the way of options that can fend off hard rush down. Kamui's hitboxes look notably large but I'm doubtful that they'll have stellar IASA frames and I feel like they may have mediocre startup and be general commitments to an extent outside of Dtilt which seems like Kamui's go-to poking/disrupt option (as well as the option for confirms into aerials, of course) in the short-range as well as her jab.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see but those are my thoughts atm.

 

[OceloT42]

Huh everyone's already said what I was thinking. Oh well.
February is only a few days more guys!!
RESERVE YOUR BADASS ANIME DRAGON NOW FOR ONLY 4.99!!!!
seriously tho, I wish everyone the best of luck.I hope Corrin lives up to most(optimistic) expectations!!
I'll be buying him and then going to a place without Internet for a week or so, so I look forward to coming back to this thread and seeing cries of joy.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Spoiler: Zoning Stuff.

I take the same general view myself, as I consider "zoning" to be the definition of "space control" in its strictest sense, and multiple projectile options can most easily allow for the most influence over the most amount of space on the stage (in the usual case).

I play Link of course, who falls into this "strict" definition of a zoner well (IMO) although he has to rely on his CQC (which has unfortunate high damage potential but low speed meaning he gets out-boxed (read out-boxed as in "losing a boxing match" AKA CQC) more often than not when he has to do so) when his projectiles don't confirm well into any of his reliable CQC kill options, which is an unfortunate circumstance (whereas Tink's bombs are very confirm friendly, but part of that is because Tink is way more mobile than Link so he has an easier time confirming).

If I were to get technical I would call Link a "dichotomous zoner" since IMO his gameplan is usually to force people out of his space and then keep them out, i.e. offensively zone and then defensively zone although he should be ready to take advantage of any opportunities where his projectiles allow him to follow with his strong CQC options.

Other projectile characters fall a bit differently into this "offensive/defensive zoning" dichotomy of course, but a full discussion of my thoughts on that would be a rather extreme digression from the topic of this thread.

Spoiler: I typed a lot of words, sort of.

I agree with that general view.

IMO, Kamui seems like a character that most others will really need to respect in the mid-range simply because Kamui's range is so large and because she has so many options that can, as you said, harass the hell out of other characters who don't have the options to deal with that sort of stuff in the midrange.

What comes to my mind is Kamui's ability to harass projectile characters/zoners in this midrange. Certainly, some zoning characters in Smash 4 I feel may be more comfortable in the mid-long to long range (Duck Hunt comes to mind, and R.O.B. too, although R.O.B can usually mix his zoning projectiles with aggression to be more active in the mid range. I would say Robin to an extent, although depending on the opponent's character I feel Robin prefers to be in the mid-range since Arcfire is still fairly low-risk (as well as the mid-range being the extent of Arcfire's effective range in general anyways) and because it allows Robin to follow up from Arcthunder, while also maintaining Elthunder as a good general projectile because it charges so quickly and has improved cooldown now); that said, I feel like they will often like to step into the midrange at least some of the time.

Using Link as an example (because he's my character), I consider him to be a midrange/mid-long range zoning character because his go-to projectiles (bomb/boomerang) are only effective (bombs because limited throw distance) or most effective (boomerang, IMO) in this range. In the long-range game Link only has Smash Input Boomerang (which isn't that threatening because the damage dissipates at the edge of its range and because it's very easy to react to) and charged Arrows, which deal good damage/are fast when charged but are otherwise situational outside of when Link can get full charge in the long-range (and that said, arrows straight-up lose to shield and with practice can be power-shielded effectively).

The issue that Link's midrange game has, however, is that his (best) midrange projectile options have notable startup, Gale Boomerang has it's first active hitbox frame on frame 27 and bomb pulls take 17 frames.

So, often I can see a situation where Link is just trying to do Link projectile stuff in the mid range and then Kamui can just walk up and be like "Oh you're going to throw your boomerang [or pull a bomb], go ahead and hold this DFS, Dragon Lunge or tipper F-Smash in the process."

I feel generally that Kamui has the potential to be a "harassing character" in the midrange, having the reach to harass and space further than characters like Marth (this space which is one where most characters can't do anything but shield to deal with it) while also carrying DFS as a longer-range "harass" option.

I feel that one of her fundamental problems (aside from the aforementioned potential KO problem) will be dealing with rushdown characters since Kamui has to space even further than Marth does in order to get the highest reward out of her Smash Attacks while also not having much in the way of options that can fend off hard rush down. Kamui's hitboxes look notably large but I'm doubtful that they'll have stellar IASA frames and I feel like they may have mediocre startup and be general commitments to an extent outside of Dtilt which seems like Kamui's go-to poking/disrupt option (as well as the option for confirms into aerials, of course) in the short-range as well as her jab.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see but those are my thoughts atm.

That was a very well-thought-out and detailed response. Thanks! Always a pleasure to read stuff like this.

I feel that one of her fundamental problems (aside from the aforementioned potential KO problem) will be dealing with rushdown characters since Kamui has to space even further than Marth does in order to get the highest reward out of her Smash Attacks while also not having much in the way of options that can fend off hard rush down. Kamui's hitboxes look notably large but I'm doubtful that they'll have stellar IASA frames and I feel like they may have mediocre startup and be general commitments to an extent outside of Dtilt which seems like Kamui's go-to poking/disrupt option (as well as the option for confirms into aerials, of course) in the short-range as well as her jab.

Yeah, that's the main thing I'm afraid of since it's such a prevalent trend with characters of this archetype. I have some hope because of the manner in which Cloud defies this tradition, but he could very well end up being an outlier as a swordie that can go toe-to-toe with rushdown (I suppose Ike also has some success here, but he doesn't have the raw numbers Cloud has afaik). I just hope we have more to work with than Shulk level frames. Even with Monados Shulk appears to suffer from 'Lipstick on a Pig' syndrome in that no matter how you change his base parameters he's still coming at you with overall poor moves, and I hope Kamui doesn't suffer the same fate in exchange for her range and disjoint.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, that's the main thing I'm afraid of since it's such a prevalent trend with characters of this archetype. I have some hope because of the manner in which Cloud defies this tradition, but he could very well end up being an outlier as a swordie that can go toe-to-toe with rushdown (I suppose Ike also has some success here, but he doesn't have the raw numbers Cloud has afaik). I just hope we have more to work with than Shulk level frames. Even with Monados Shulk appears to suffer from 'Lipstick on a Pig' syndrome in that no matter how you change his base parameters he's still coming at you with overall poor moves, and I hope Kamui doesn't suffer the same fate in exchange for her range and disjoint.

Dunno how much other swordsmen struggle with rushdown, but Pit can take it just fine. Sheik's bad because of needles, namely. If anything it's Cloud who struggles with rushdown because his Dtilt ain't exactly a safe poke, jab isn't really safe either, and his disadvantage (namely offstage) is pretty bad.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Spoiler: Zoning Stuff.

I take the same general view myself, as I consider "zoning" to be the definition of "space control" in its strictest sense, and multiple projectile options can most easily allow for the most influence over the most amount of space on the stage (in the usual case).

I play Link of course, who falls into this "strict" definition of a zoner well (IMO) although he has to rely on his CQC (which has unfortunate high damage potential but low speed meaning he gets out-boxed (read out-boxed as in "losing a boxing match" AKA CQC) more often than not when he has to do so) when his projectiles don't confirm well into any of his reliable CQC kill options, which is an unfortunate circumstance (whereas Tink's bombs are very confirm friendly, but part of that is because Tink is way more mobile than Link so he has an easier time confirming).

If I were to get technical I would call Link a "dichotomous zoner" since IMO his gameplan is usually to force people out of his space and then keep them out, i.e. offensively zone and then defensively zone although he should be ready to take advantage of any opportunities where his projectiles allow him to follow with his strong CQC options.

Other projectile characters fall a bit differently into this "offensive/defensive zoning" dichotomy of course, but a full discussion of my thoughts on that would be a rather extreme digression from the topic of this thread.

Spoiler: I typed a lot of words, sort of.

I agree with that general view.

IMO, Kamui seems like a character that most others will really need to respect in the mid-range simply because Kamui's range is so large and because she has so many options that can, as you said, harass the hell out of other characters who don't have the options to deal with that sort of stuff in the midrange.

What comes to my mind is Kamui's ability to harass projectile characters/zoners in this midrange. Certainly, some zoning characters in Smash 4 I feel may be more comfortable in the mid-long to long range (Duck Hunt comes to mind, and R.O.B. too, although R.O.B can usually mix his zoning projectiles with aggression to be more active in the mid range. I would say Robin to an extent, although depending on the opponent's character I feel Robin prefers to be in the mid-range since Arcfire is still fairly low-risk (as well as the mid-range being the extent of Arcfire's effective range in general anyways) and because it allows Robin to follow up from Arcthunder, while also maintaining Elthunder as a good general projectile because it charges so quickly and has improved cooldown now); that said, I feel like they will often like to step into the midrange at least some of the time.

Using Link as an example (because he's my character), I consider him to be a midrange/mid-long range zoning character because his go-to projectiles (bomb/boomerang) are only effective (bombs because limited throw distance) or most effective (boomerang, IMO) in this range. In the long-range game Link only has Smash Input Boomerang (which isn't that threatening because the damage dissipates at the edge of its range and because it's very easy to react to) and charged Arrows, which deal good damage/are fast when charged but are otherwise situational outside of when Link can get full charge in the long-range (and that said, arrows straight-up lose to shield and with practice can be power-shielded effectively).

The issue that Link's midrange game has, however, is that his (best) midrange projectile options have notable startup, Gale Boomerang has it's first active hitbox frame on frame 27 and bomb pulls take 17 frames.

So, often I can see a situation where Link is just trying to do Link projectile stuff in the mid range and then Kamui can just walk up and be like "Oh you're going to throw your boomerang [or pull a bomb], go ahead and hold this DFS, Dragon Lunge or tipper F-Smash in the process."

I feel generally that Kamui has the potential to be a "harassing character" in the midrange, having the reach to harass and space further than characters like Marth (this space which is one where most characters can't do anything but shield to deal with it) while also carrying DFS as a longer-range "harass" option.

I feel that one of her fundamental problems (aside from the aforementioned potential KO problem) will be dealing with rushdown characters since Kamui has to space even further than Marth does in order to get the highest reward out of her Smash Attacks while also not having much in the way of options that can fend off hard rush down. Kamui's hitboxes look notably large but I'm doubtful that they'll have stellar IASA frames and I feel like they may have mediocre startup and be general commitments to an extent outside of Dtilt which seems like Kamui's go-to poking/disrupt option (as well as the option for confirms into aerials, of course) in the short-range as well as her jab.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see but those are my thoughts atm.

I believe Kamui/Corrin will be a Anti-spacing/zoner I can see F-smashing Luma hard for Rosa, A few Multihit skills vs Ryu, my ZSS/Shiek DFL stall theory shut down for now (First thing i test)...

I agree with alot of what you said, but lets hope Corrin has some Cloud IASA frames.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, that's the main thing I'm afraid of since it's such a prevalent trend with characters of this archetype. I have some hope because of the manner in which Cloud defies this tradition, but he could very well end up being an outlier as a swordie that can go toe-to-toe with rushdown (I suppose Ike also has some success here, but he doesn't have the raw numbers Cloud has afaik). I just hope we have more to work with than Shulk level frames. Even with Monados Shulk appears to suffer from 'Lipstick on a Pig' syndrome in that no matter how you change his base parameters he's still coming at you with overall poor moves, and I hope Kamui doesn't suffer the same fate in exchange for her range and disjoint.

Spoiler: I type too much.

I don't find myself too worried in regards to Kamui's potential frame issues, and a lot of that comes from the fact that, yes, Kamui has range of an echelon close to Shulk's, but at the same time Kamui's general style and options seem to be fundamentally different than Shulk's.

IMO Cloud serves as a good example of this, considering that (afaik) Cloud actually has the second-highest overall disjointed range (losing only to Shulk), and yet, because his design is notably different (I at least consider that to be a significant factor) from that of Shulk's he isn't cursed with trash frame data and actually has some of the best raw overall frames for a swordfighter (especially when take his disjointed range into account).

Shulk's design is essentially buff-based, his Arts are meant to boost his damage, movement, or damage-tanking attributes to the point that he can be offensively threatening or defensively hard to KO (art-dependant of course), unfortunately none of this is enough to overcome is awful frame data, since more often than not it doesn't matter how hard you can hit your opponent or how well you can maneuver around them if none of your attacks are fast enough or safe enough to land/use very reliably (and this is why Sheik is so dominant, because her frame data is amazing, and she has all sorts of ways to get hits/damage).

Cloud on the other hand, while being buff-based to an extent because of his Limit charging, is more than capable of being threatening without resorting to Limit-Charged specials to the extent that Shulk must depend on his Arts. Cloud has the ability to be aggressive because of the relative speed and great reach of a lot of the tools in his kit and because he has high mobility capabilities. Cloud also has an ability to force approaches and benefit from playing defensively since he can sit back and charge limit or (situationally) camp some characters with Blade Beam. Contrarily, Shulk has no reliable way to force opponents to approach him and has to take risks when playing offensively because each of his moves are such heavy frame commitments.

Like Cloud, Kamui's design is also notably different from Shulk's, Kamui can camp to an extent/force an approach with DFS and is not buff-based at all. As such, I feel her shortcomings will arise in areas other than her frame data simply because her design does not revolve around boosts to her raw movement and damage attributes (this is not to say that Shulk's frames are bad purely because his design is buff-based, although I feel like that was a significant factor for it). We already have one potential area which is Kamui's consistency/reliablity in killing ability due to the space she requires for full damage/knockback from her Smash attacks and due to the fact that we have no idea if she has killing throws, kill-setup throws or dangerous aerial options (yes, we know that Bair seems to kill decently, but what matters more is how well it can be set up to be landed on the opponent). The aforementioned potential problems with rushdown is another.

Thankfully, I don't feel like her offstage game will be as bad as Cloud's (in terms of recovery capability, and by extension, edgeguarding options), I feel that because of her seemingly large aerial hitboxes, at least decent double jump and seemingly far-reaching recovery Kamui can be threatening offstage, and having decent gimp options will certainly help her overall KO troubles.

Other areas such as her general ground-game and general air-game performance will obviously have to wait until she's released (since we've only seen snippets of her) but I feel like this (what I've said) is a decent start from a theory perspective based on what we have with which to work.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Some more speculation... If im standing at the ledge and I fsmash at a shiek's bouncing fish which do you think is more likely to occur?

1. Fish and Fsmash does a weird clank
2. Shiek gets hit and dies
3. Shiek bounces off Fsmash

(Assuming both hitboxes collide)

 

[Nu~]

Some more speculation... If im standing at the ledge and I fsmash at a shiek's bouncing fish which do you think is more likely to occur?

1. Fish and Fsmash does a weird clank
2. Shiek gets hit and dies
3. Shiek bounces off Fsmash

(Assuming both hitboxes collide)

They probably clank if Corrin's fsmash is anything like Marth's sword.

Now if it's transcendent...I doubt it, but if it was we could challenge anything in mid range with it

 

[LancerStaff]

Considering that (afaik) Cloud actually has the second-highest overall disjointed range (losing only to Shulk)...

Number one is , two is . may be third, not sure. Then there's this of swordsmen all around the same area, being and . Then and kinda tie, and another tie I think between and. can be anywhere between and depending on the size. Then there's a bunch of characters with different amounts of disjointed moves and, well, disjoint, being (most everything is technically a disjoint anyway)(durhur Fair)and.

Keep in mind thatis physically smaller in this game,'s Buster Sword is pretty short in this game and he keeps it close to his body (Jab 3, Ftilt, Dash attack, and Uair come to mind),swings his sword around like a doofus on every move besides like Fsmash,'s Bronze Sword is basically a dagger and didn't lose range on anything from Brawl besides Fsmash and Dolphin Slash.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

They probably clank if Corrin's fsmash is anything like Marth's sword.

Now if it's transcendent...I doubt it, but if it was we could challenge anything in mid range with it

Hmmm... I want February to come faster because i want to to test forward/back throw Fsmash at ledge frame trap set ups kinda like melee marth (Sorry I made a melee marth refrence don't get mad at me ;__; ) or even downthrow. Dthrow looked like it sent dark pit more horizontal seen

Spoiler: here

Edit: just watched frame by frame might just be how pit DI'd also cool thing how Corrin's hand turns into a dragon claw to grab... maybe will help with grab range or not still cool.

Nvm that kinda just looks like a bigger hand.

 

[Deleted member]

Number one is , two is . may be third, not sure. Then there's this of swordsmen all around the same area, being and . Then and kinda tie, and another tie I think between and. can be anywhere between and depending on the size. Then there's a bunch of characters with different amounts of disjointed moves and, well, disjoint, being (most everything is technically a disjoint anyway)(durhur Fair)and.

Keep in mind thatis physically smaller in this game,'s Buster Sword is pretty short in this game and he keeps it close to his body (Jab 3, Ftilt, Dash attack, and Uair come to mind),swings his sword around like a doofus on every move besides like Fsmash,'s Bronze Sword is basically a dagger and didn't lose range on anything from Brawl besides Fsmash and Dolphin Slash.

Link isn't third, I can assert that much.

Uair, Fsmash, and Utilt are notable, and maybe jab, but he certainly loses the overall disjointed range game to at least Ike and Cloud.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Have we talked about this hand doe? WTF is it... a claw or a hand with broken fingers?

 

[LancerStaff]

Have we talked about this hand doe? WTF is it... a claw or a hand with broken fingers?

Ever see Lucina's Shield Breaker animation? Breaks every joint in her body to pull the move off.

 

[Empyrean]

Like some others have pointed out, i feel that DFS/neutral-b won't have enough stun to consistently combo into other moves, going off the trailer footage.

Doesn't necessarily mean that the move will be entirely useless though. Let's say Corrin lands neutral-b (how feasible that will be remains to be seen; maybe catching landings?). The stun, while not enough to combo, might give him/her enough time to advance towards the opponent and get back to the range where Corrin can threaten with fsmash/side-b/etc, basically taking stage control while still being close enough to space/pressure. Without the stun holding the opponent in place for a moment, they would be able to act faster by the time Corrin can move and would have more room to reset to neutral and escape possible traps. I don't know what Corrin's archetype is supposed to be yet, but I heavily doubt they intended him/her to be combo-oriented and neutral-b's above description seems to reflect that. Of course, it's entirely possible that the stun is only there to allow the bite to connect but I feel there's more to it than just that.

This is obviously raw speculation, and i wouldn't be mad in the slightest if the move DID combo. I guess the point i'm trying to make is that it would be wiser to keep your expectations in check in case DFS doesn't end up as what we'd like it to be.

 

[LancerStaff]

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that it would be wiser to keep your expectations in check in case DFS doesn't end up as what we'd like it to be.

Needs to be said. Mewtwo's Confusion anyone?

 

[OceloT42]

Needs to be said. Mewtwo's Confusion anyone?

Dp you mean Mewtwo's Disable or Confusion?
And his explanation actually makes sense

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Can't tell if this is good or bad grab range... first image is 1 frame before 2nd image.

 

[Nu~]

Can't tell if this is good or bad grab range... first image is 1 frame before 2nd image.

We wouldn't be able to tell if it's bad or good because we don't have the full range of it.

That looks awfully short, but even then, we don't know if it can reach further.

 

[Delzethin]

Like some others have pointed out, i feel that DFS/neutral-b won't have enough stun to consistently combo into other moves, going off the trailer footage.

Doesn't necessarily mean that the move will be entirely useless though. Let's say Corrin lands neutral-b (how feasible that will be remains to be seen; maybe catching landings?). The stun, while not enough to combo, might give him/her enough time to advance towards the opponent and get back to the range where Corrin can threaten with fsmash/side-b/etc, basically taking stage control while still being close enough to space/pressure. Without the stun holding the opponent in place for a moment, they would be able to act faster by the time Corrin can move and would have more room to reset to neutral and escape possible traps. I don't know what Corrin's archetype is supposed to be yet, but I heavily doubt they intended him/her to be combo-oriented and neutral-b's above description seems to reflect that. Of course, it's entirely possible that the stun is only there to allow the bite to connect but I feel there's more to it than just that.

This is obviously raw speculation, and i wouldn't be mad in the slightest if the move DID combo. I guess the point i'm trying to make is that it would be wiser to keep your expectations in check in case DFS doesn't end up as what we'd like it to be.

It does look to stun for a decent amount of time, though, at least when charged. During the footage near the end of Corrin's part of the Direct, there's a bit where a fully charged one catches Ryu and holds him in place for as long as a Paralyzer shot!

Going off that, I could see DFS landing traps->pivot tipped fsmash being a thing.

 

[Nu~]

Is anyone gonna talk about the possible B reverse mixups with DFS?

Being able to suddenly B reverse DFS into an approaching character's face can lead to heavy damage.

 

[Korrin]

I noticed in the trailer that corrin does an up throw at about 1:23 on ness. When he does it he turns into his dragon form to perform the throw.

 

[Zult]

Like some others have pointed out, i feel that DFS/neutral-b won't have enough stun to consistently combo into other moves, going off the trailer footage.

Doesn't necessarily mean that the move will be entirely useless though. Let's say Corrin lands neutral-b (how feasible that will be remains to be seen; maybe catching landings?). The stun, while not enough to combo, might give him/her enough time to advance towards the opponent and get back to the range where Corrin can threaten with fsmash/side-b/etc, basically taking stage control while still being close enough to space/pressure. Without the stun holding the opponent in place for a moment, they would be able to act faster by the time Corrin can move and would have more room to reset to neutral and escape possible traps. I don't know what Corrin's archetype is supposed to be yet, but I heavily doubt they intended him/her to be combo-oriented and neutral-b's above description seems to reflect that. Of course, it's entirely possible that the stun is only there to allow the bite to connect but I feel there's more to it than just that.

This is obviously raw speculation, and i wouldn't be mad in the slightest if the move DID combo. I guess the point i'm trying to make is that it would be wiser to keep your expectations in check in case DFS doesn't end up as what we'd like it to be.

Not a combo character? They show him performing what looks like combos multiple times o_O
And there will definitely be follow ups from DFS at mid range. Where Ryu gets hit on that castle siege clip I don't even think ZSS could follow up from that far. I don't even know if her paralyzer can reach that far in the first place. A charged DFS at mid range will definitely lead into something, even if it's just a fsmash. Now one might ask who would get hit by that thing. That's what we call set ups. If you look at ZSS' paralyzer by itself you might ask yourself how people get hit by that. But they do.

I noticed in the trailer that corrin does an up throw at about 1:23 on ness. When he does it he turns into his dragon form to perform the throw.

We know. Welcome to SmashBoards though.

Is anyone gonna talk about the possible B reverse mixups with DFS?

Being able to suddenly B reverse DFS into an approaching character's face can lead to heavy damage.

Shooting a DFS in the air will stall you for a moment. So I'm not sure about that. If they get caught by it though, the bite afterwards will be deadly for sure.

 

[LancerStaff]

Dp you mean Mewtwo's Disable or Confusion?
And his explanation actually makes sense

Confusion, since everybody thought it was going to be an easy insta-combo and continually whines that it isn't made to combo every patch.

He basically elaborated to say it'd be safe on hit... Actually, there's an idea. The stun might be there so the move is safe on hit while the bite goes off.

Can't tell if this is good or bad grab range... first image is 1 frame before 2nd image.

Grab range usually matches the animation well enough... Judging from his legs he's taking a small step forwards. Probably average. IDK, if he whiffed like that I'd be worried.

Not a combo character? They show him performing what looks like combos multiple times o_O
And there will definitely be follow ups from DFS at mid range. Where Ryu gets hit on that castle siege clip I don't even think ZSS could follow up from that far. I don't even know if her paralyzer can reach that far in the first place. A charged DFS at mid range will definitely lead into something, even if it's just a fsmash. Now one might ask who would get hit by that thing. That's what we call set ups. If you look at ZSS' paralyzer by itself you might ask yourself how people get hit by that. But they do.

Wouldn't be the first time they show us combos that don't actually work...

"Definitely?" Again, if it was an easy-bake combo tool they would of shown us. Don't assume or you'll be deeply disappointed.

ZSS could. Dashgrab is ridiculous, although yeah she can't stun somebody that far away.

ZSS can create pressure with her ranged tools, namely Zair and her grab. Corrin has Fsmash, easily jumped over, and Dragon Lunge which doesn't look crazy fast or have enough range to even pressure at a distance where DFS would be safe to throw out with the effectiveness of the average dash attack being what it is.

Really, so long as Corrin lacks a Zair his zoning tools aren't remotely comparable to ZSS's because you can jump over everything. Judging from the trailer everything of his has much more start-up then ZSS too...

 

[Pedker]

Shooting a DFS in the air will stall you for a moment. So I'm not sure about that.

DFS does keep you still while in the air, but only when you release the projectile/charge the bite. You should be able to SH B-reverse it, but you'd have to charge it a little. Check it out:

First time using Gfycat, I'm learning things!

Also, some things to note in this single .gif:
-Corrin was able to F-Smash right when he landed. This information could potentially be used to calculate the cooldown on his bite; we might be able to figure out if he can follow up from a DFS stun.
-Corrin on the right side used a falling N-air, it appeared to have minimal landing lag. Still no idea on whether or not it will auto-cancel on a SH, but at least the landing lag is looking fresh.

ZSS can create pressure with her ranged tools, namely Zair and her grab. Corrin has Fsmash, easily jumped over, and Dragon Lunge which doesn't look crazy fast or have enough range to even pressure at a distance where DFS would be safe to throw out with the effectiveness of the average dash attack being what it is.

I don't think F-Smash will be easily jumped over. Remember that you can angle that move upwards. Is it as good of spacing as ZSS grab/Z-air? Probably not. Is it easily jumped over, though? I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[OceloT42]

DFS does keep you still while in the air, but only when you release the projectile/charge the bite. You should be able to SH B-reverse it, but you'd have to charge it a little. Check it out:

First time using Gfycat, I'm learning things!

Also, some things to note in this single .gif:
-Corrin was able to F-Smash right when he landed. This information could potentially be used to calculate the cooldown on his bite; we might be able to figure out if he can follow up from a DFS stun.
-Corrin on the right side used a falling N-air, it appeared to have minimal landing lag. Still no idea on whether or not it will auto-cancel on a SH, but at least the landing lag is looking fresh.



I don't think F-Smash will be easily jumped over. Remember that you can angle that move upwards. Is it as good of spacing as ZSS grab/Z-air? Probably not. Is it easily jumped over, though? I'm not 100% sure on that.

I'm not sure whether I saw correctly but his dragon helmet doesn't vanish while he's switching from DFS to Fsmash. Does this mean we can switch between dragon moves with minimal lag?