Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[ZephyrYoshi]

I'm not sure whether I saw correctly but his dragon helmet doesn't vanish while he's switching from DFS to Fsmash. Does this mean we can switch between dragon moves with minimal lag?

that would be a weird mechanic.

 

[Brandybuck]

I'm not sure whether I saw correctly but his dragon helmet doesn't vanish while he's switching from DFS to Fsmash. Does this mean we can switch between dragon moves with minimal lag?

It's hard to tell but just for a jiffy on landing after the DFS Bite Corrin's helmet disappears (it reappares again right away for her F-Smash so really hard to see when for me without frame-by-frame). You can see it in the video if you put the speed to .25 (but would be easier with frame by frame). I remember that earlier in the thread there was a theory that Dragon moves cooldown eended when the mask disappears and this seems to agree with that.

IF that's the case, then the helmet disappearing on the ground means either the DFS bite (charged that long) cooldown last the amount of time corrin takes to fall from a full hop or it takes longer and autocancels (but the animation looked like it was ending anyway so it's probably the former)

I still cant really tell without frame-by-frame but male-Corrin's helmet disappears right above or as he lands from the Nair. Later in that sequence though (not in the GIF) he does a SH Nair and the helmet disappeared when he hit the ground so maye it autocancels? He didn't really act on landing though.

On the other hand, the SH Bair he does in that video sequence kept the helmet for a while so it probably doesn't (plus it just doesn't look like it).
That all depends if the mask theory is true though and I doubt it since in the sequence at around 31:36 Corin does a DL jump into Dair and his helmet disappears right at landing and I really don't see that move being quick to act out of.

Here's a video link for convenience because I don't have access to GIFing atm

(Just a random observation, it's strange that the first hit of jab doesn't have the mask since it uses Dragon Fang?)

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

I'm not sure whether I saw correctly but his dragon helmet doesn't vanish while he's switching from DFS to Fsmash. Does this mean we can switch between dragon moves with minimal lag?

Watched frame by frame mask comes off.

 

[LancerStaff]

DFS does keep you still while in the air, but only when you release the projectile/charge the bite. You should be able to SH B-reverse it, but you'd have to charge it a little. Check it out:

First time using Gfycat, I'm learning things!

Also, some things to note in this single .gif:
-Corrin was able to F-Smash right when he landed. This information could potentially be used to calculate the cooldown on his bite; we might be able to figure out if he can follow up from a DFS stun.
-Corrin on the right side used a falling N-air, it appeared to have minimal landing lag. Still no idea on whether or not it will auto-cancel on a SH, but at least the landing lag is looking fresh.



I don't think F-Smash will be easily jumped over. Remember that you can angle that move upwards. Is it as good of spacing as ZSS grab/Z-air? Probably not. Is it easily jumped over, though? I'm not 100% sure on that.

On DFS again... Not every special can be B-reversed. Samus's Charge Shot and Missiles can't, IIRC. Second is that some specials can be interrupted eariler in the air and can act instantly when you hit the ground after that point. Pit and Toon Link's arrows off the top of my head I know work this way. Since Corrin does have quite a bit of distance on Dragon Ascent DFS might have this function so it can be used offstage without effectively giving up a stock. ...On the flipside, I don't think it's likely. Just an example of yet another variable that would effect the data.

I don't think angling Fsmash will help much. It'll come down to staying away from the end. Refresh my memory... Have we seen it get angled up yet? Because there's nothing stopping them from just not letting you or otherwise making the upwards angle underwhelming.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't think angling Fsmash will help much. It'll come down to staying away from the end. Refresh my memory... Have we seen it get angled up yet? Because there's nothing stopping them from just not letting you or otherwise making the upwards angle underwhelming.

They definitely did a downward angled one (edgeguarding Wii Fit), and I think they showed an upward angled one out of a throw (though it didn't look like it comboed, unfortunately).

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

On DFS again... Not every special can be B-reversed. Samus's Charge Shot and Missiles can't, IIRC. Second is that some specials can be interrupted eariler in the air and can act instantly when you hit the ground after that point. Pit and Toon Link's arrows off the top of my head I know work this way. Since Corrin does have quite a bit of distance on Dragon Ascent DFS might have this function so it can be used offstage without effectively giving up a stock. ...On the flipside, I don't think it's likely. Just an example of yet another variable that would effect the data.

I don't think angling Fsmash will help much. It'll come down to staying away from the end. Refresh my memory... Have we seen it get angled up yet? Because there's nothing stopping them from just not letting you or otherwise making the upwards angle underwhelming.

Spoiler: here

Up angled

 

[Brandybuck]

...

I don't think angling Fsmash will help much. It'll come down to staying away from the end. Refresh my memory... Have we seen it get angled up yet? Because there's nothing stopping them from just not letting you or otherwise making the upwards angle underwhelming.

Yeah he angled it upwards in the Direct twice that I noticed. In the video I put up above, its 3:52 against Captain Falcon (zoomed in though) and then at around 4:12 against Roy

EDIT: beaten to the punch by a muuch better example lol. Is there no way to delete this now?

 

[LancerStaff]

Interesting enough... No, definitely not a combo lol. Pretty much know from instinct that Pittwo could of acted looong before the Fsmash.

Fairly easy way around it on the ground. Jumping airdodge. Airdodge is invulnerable f2, so basically you'll have 5-6 frames to hit on with jumpsquat. More importantly, characters noticeably crouch during jumpsquat frames. Most average characters would probably fit underneath while jumping, assuming there's no weird hitbox jank. Considering this is a swordsman the jank's probably in the opposite direction... Jumping airdodge may be completely immune to tipper upwards angled Fsmash. Much closer and it's probably not going to be reliable for frame data reasons.

 

[Pedker]

Jumping airdodge. Airdodge is invulnerable f2, so basically you'll have 5-6 frames to hit on with jumpsquat.

Yeah, that sounds like a really easy way to beat F-Smash. Then again, SHAD beats like every F-Smash, save things like .

Not every special can be B-reversed. Samus's Charge Shot and Missiles can't, IIRC

Those moves probably can't be B-reversed because their charge can be held. I'm 99.99% sure that Corrin will be able to B-reverse DFS because he can't hold the charge.

EDIT: Neutral-Bs that can't be B-reversed:

Spoiler: Y u B-Lyin

: Cannot on charging, can on full-charge
: Has turnaround mechanic
: Cannot be charged in air, therefore cannot be B-reversed. Cannot on full charge
: Has super armor, might be reason?
: CAN B-REVERSE: His spin changes direction, but has no real use
: Can on charging, cannot on Thoron
: Turnaround mechanic
: Has no animations lol
: Cannot for everything except key
: Locks onto targets

I don't want to test Mii Fighters or Side-B/Down-B/Up-B

So all the characters that Can't B-reverse Neutral-B either are charging based + can be held, or are spins. Only exception is Little Mac, Idk what's going on with that guy.
So I think Corrin will be able to B-reverse because his doesn't really meet any of these requirements

 

[Zult]

It's hard to tell but just for a jiffy on landing after the DFS Bite Corrin's helmet disappears (it reappares again right away for her F-Smash so really hard to see when for me without frame-by-frame). You can see it in the video if you put the speed to .25 (but would be easier with frame by frame). I remember that earlier in the thread there was a theory that Dragon moves cooldown eended when the mask disappears and this seems to agree with that.

IF that's the case, then the helmet disappearing on the ground means either the DFS bite (charged that long) cooldown last the amount of time corrin takes to fall from a full hop or it takes longer and autocancels (but the animation looked like it was ending anyway so it's probably the former)

I still cant really tell without frame-by-frame but male-Corrin's helmet disappears right above or as he lands from the Nair. Later in that sequence though (not in the GIF) he does a SH Nair and the helmet disappeared when he hit the ground so maye it autocancels? He didn't really act on landing though.

On the other hand, the SH Bair he does in that video sequence kept the helmet for a while so it probably doesn't (plus it just doesn't look like it).
That all depends if the mask theory is true though and I doubt it since in the sequence at around 31:36 Corin does a DL jump into Dair and his helmet disappears right at landing and I really don't see that move being quick to act out of.

Here's a video link for convenience because I don't have access to GIFing atm

(Just a random observation, it's strange that the first hit of jab doesn't have the mask since it uses Dragon Fang?)

I think that was me talking about that. http://smashboards.com/threads/move...iscussion-thread.426055/page-19#post-20769792 (post quoted below)

Corrin's face changes when he does the smash attack here https://youtu.be/_qj8O07Kg_I?t=108 (1:48 slow it down to 1/4 speed), so I'm assuming the time from when his face changes to when the attack is released is start up time. Seems like a reasonable start up time for a smash attack. Now look at the back air https://youtu.be/_qj8O07Kg_I?t=105 (1:45). As soon as his face changes, the back air comes out and is active. His back air might actually come out faster than what everyone is expecting. He does another one right after he hits metaknight and it looks actually really fast. If this thing is a disjoint, this might be potentially borderline broken in terms of spacing.

Here at 4:21 https://youtu.be/_qj8O07Kg_I?t=261 Corrin does multiple back airs in a row. End lag or start up lag does not look bad at all. Notice as soon as Corrin's face changes back to normal, he is instantly able to do another. This leads me to believe that it is possible act out of Corrin's dragon attacks as soon as his face changes back to normal.

OH and are we gonna completely ignore this? That seems to have really low end lag for a stall and fall. And yes, the mask does change before he does a taunt. So my theory still seems to be true so far. By the way, the dair is a disjoint if you look at it closely.

Interesting enough... No, definitely not a combo lol. Pretty much know from instinct that Pittwo could of acted looong before the Fsmash.

Fairly easy way around it on the ground. Jumping airdodge. Airdodge is invulnerable f2, so basically you'll have 5-6 frames to hit on with jumpsquat. More importantly, characters noticeably crouch during jumpsquat frames. Most average characters would probably fit underneath while jumping, assuming there's no weird hitbox jank. Considering this is a swordsman the jank's probably in the opposite direction... Jumping airdodge may be completely immune to tipper upwards angled Fsmash. Much closer and it's probably not going to be reliable for frame data reasons.

Then I will charge the fsmash and get them as they come out of the air dodge. Or if they SHAD right in front of me then they can get hit by my active hitbox while I'm charging the fsmash.

 

[Jink8]

I have noticed some slow moves in Corrins trailer for example.
Up Air
F Tilt
and some others. How do you think his slow animations can impact his tier placement. If I am wrong, please correct me. Thank you!

 

[Metallinatus]

He is a sword/lance character.... just space yourself right.

 

[Trainer_Nate]

I did not see too much lagg tbh. I would not overlook anything so quickly.

Pros:
1. Stun
2. Large hitbox on recovery/angle can be adjusted.
3. Seemingly strong counter that cannot be interrupted because attacks will go through it.
4. Pinning seems VERY versatile.
5. His frame data seems relatively normative to the rest of the cast.

I do not see too many cons tbh except that the male variant will not be used by anyone. His dash attack and nair seems trash. But everything else seems quite solid. My prediction will be top 20 assuming other characters do not get changes...which they more than likely will.

 

[Ridel]

I do not see too many cons tbh except that the male variant will not be used by anyone. His dash attack and nair seems trash. But everything else seems quite solid. My prediction will be top 20 assuming other characters do not get changes...which they more than likely will.

Ehh this seems way too early to predict. Also keep in mind that trailers and showcases are meant to show off the characters best attributes, so it's no surprise he looks like a good character atm. Until we get our hands on this guy there is no conceivable way to properly predict how good he will be.

 

[Ridel]

Then I will charge the fsmash and get them as they come out of the air dodge. Or if they SHAD right in front of me then they can get hit by my active hitbox while I'm charging the fsmash.

So it's a 50/50 then, not good odds tbh. Most will probably just jump out if you catch them with it once anyways.

 

[Ridel]

I think that was me talking about that. http://smashboards.com/threads/move...iscussion-thread.426055/page-19#post-20769792 (post quoted below)


OH and are we gonna completely ignore this? That seems to have really low end lag for a stall and fall. And yes, the mask does change before he does a taunt. So my theory still seems to be true so far. By the way, the dair is a disjoint if you look at it closely.

Well actually there is a thing in this game where taunting while landing from a move cancels all landing lag......I think at least. I remember hearing about it somewhere not sure if it was a Smash 4 thing though.

 

[meowmere]

I know this thread is about Corrin's moveset. But what do guys think Corrin's victory poses could be like? My guess is that they'll probably be similar to Marth/Lucina's. Also, Corrin will most likely (partially) transform into a dragon in one animation.

 

[alguidrag]

So it's a 50/50 then, not good odds tbh. Most will probably just jump out if you catch them with it once anyways.

Well, the lower the odds the better reward, expecialy if he have more than one thing to do (and sadly i think he don't) so read oponents is only bad when you fight a cpu


Edit: i think Kamui will use his victory animations off fates and tranform into a dragon

 

[Ridel]

Well, the lower the odds the better reward, expecialy if he have more than one thing to do (and sadly i think he don't) so read oponents is only bad when you fight a cpu


Edit: i think Kamui will use his victory animations off fates and tranform into a dragon

Another issue could be that the throw was showcased with no DI and if that's the case odds would probably worsen as DIing to the right in or up in this case would make it almost null and void.

 

[Trainer_Nate]

Ehh this seems way too early to predict. Also keep in mind that trailers and showcases are meant to show off the characters best attributes, so it's no surprise he looks like a good character atm. Until we get our hands on this guy there is no conceivable way to properly predict how good he will be.

I understand that but my assumption is based off a prediction by watching the video. Also the video may show off his best attributes but they did show nearly all of his attacks (His frame data is prob standard with the cast tbh). By observing what they gave us we can make quite possible predictions. Before we got the game in our hands, every newcomer seemed very good but its been over one year and we all understand the game.
But yeah anything could happen and we will just have to wait.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Noticed something weird about side-B/DFL... it looks like it skips jumpsquat frames so SH DFL and grounded DFL technically come out around the same time if true. (speculating)

OH and are we gonna completely ignore this? That seems to have really low end lag for a stall and fall. And yes, the mask does change before he does a taunt. So my theory still seems to be true so far. By the way, the dair is a disjoint if you look at it closely.

We talked about this and someone (sorry can't remember name will go back and find who) made a gif of Toon Link dair vs Corrin's landing lag. I brought up its' disjoint and some stated that aerials would beat it since its easy to react to.

Sheik has a 50/50 look how well that turned out... We see Corrin turn around after Back throw/Foward throw so those could have Fsmash/DFS 50/50... Lets say they do air dodge then they can't grab the ledge for a few seconds. Angled up would cover jump and angled down for low recovery while DFS covers ledge twice (Shot + Charge bite).

Even if Fsmashed won't be good in the nuetral i can see it being a good edge guard tool.

 

[Ridel]

The 50/50 might only work at low percents so unlike Shiek who gets a 50/50 kill option Corrin's is only a hard punish at low percents.

 

[Deleted member]

Noticed something weird about side-B/DFL... it looks like it skips jumpsquat frames so SH DFL and grounded DFL technically come out around the same time if true. (speculating)



We talked about this and someone (sorry can't remember name will go back and find who) made a gif of Toon Link dair vs Corrin's landing lag. I brought up its' disjoint and some stated that aerials would beat it since its easy to react to.

Sheik has a 50/50 look how well that turned out... We see Corrin turn around after Back throw/Foward throw so those could have Fsmash/DFS 50/50... Lets say they do air dodge then they can't grab the ledge for a few seconds. Angled up would cover jump and angled down for low recovery while DFS covers ledge twice (Shot + Charge bite).

Even if Fsmashed won't be good in the nuetral i can see it being a good edge guard tool.

@PommePatate made the GIF comparisons

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

The 50/50 might only work at low percents so unlike Shiek who gets a 50/50 kill option Corrin's is only a hard punish at low percents.

That could be early gimps... I hate to say it again but like melee marth and frame traps to set up maybe a ledge trump or dtilt to w/e (If your talking to me).

@PommePatate made the GIF comparisons

Thank you

Edit:

I know we can't see the hitstun to speculate these throws, but Bthrow seems to end quick and if you watch Captain falcon's shadow Fthrow seems to have a decent amount of hitstun for Corrin to untransform.

P.S. two more days til February!

 

[Jink8]

Frame data looks okay I guess

 

[Merfect]

February can't get here soon enough.
Edit: NNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Zult]

That back throw looks like it way less lag than the forward throw. And wouldn't it be weird for something like up throw to look so strong and up not sending people anywhere? That would just seem really odd to me lol.

And yeee, few more days until Corrin month. We'll finally be able to confirm or deconfirm things.

 

[meowmere]

My prediction is that there is going to be a Nintendo Direct (though not Smash specific) in the next two weeks, and Corrin will be made available after the presentation.

Also, I think back and forward throw will solely be used for positioning. They don't seem particularly strong to me and are just there to - well, be there.

 

[Brandybuck]

I think that was me talking about that. http://smashboards.com/threads/move...iscussion-thread.426055/page-19#post-20769792 (post quoted below)


OH and are we gonna completely ignore this? That seems to have really low end lag for a stall and fall. And yes, the mask does change before he does a taunt. So my theory still seems to be true so far. By the way, the dair is a disjoint if you look at it closely.

Then I will charge the fsmash and get them as they come out of the air dodge. Or if they SHAD right in front of me then they can get hit by my active hitbox while I'm charging the fsmash.

Ahh yeah it was you that I remembered.
The reason that the down-B made me unsure of the theory is because there are about 7 frames of that GIF between his mask disappearing and him leaving the landing pose (but maybe he could have overrided that with a move, seems unlikely to me though)
Definitely doesn't look like he sticks in the ground like Tink though so yay

Ohhhh that hitting Captain Falcon was an F-Throw oooops I thought it was an upward angled F-Smash orz

 

[LancerStaff]

Then I will charge the fsmash and get them as they come out of the air dodge. Or if they SHAD right in front of me then they can get hit by my active hitbox while I'm charging the fsmash.

Just SHAD/FHAD towards Corrin, then if he's charging jump over. A bunch of characters can jump out of a SHAD, and you're still looking at a small window of punishment if they go for another AD.

If Fsmash ends up being weak outside of tipper then at higher %s you're just going to be building rage... Still don't see the protective hitbox doing anything besides letting you get the move off in a FFA. Otherwise it'd be an extraordinarilly low startup Fsmash. The trailer shows it coming out f7, correct? Realistically the main move is going to come out a minimum of 7 frames after that. That gap seems a little too big to link properly, never mind the fact that they'd have to come up with a way to transition from the rapid hits holding people to the actual Fsmash.

 

[Zult]

 

[LancerStaff]

Dude, you can clearly see WFT return to his "normal stance" in the air. Never mind the fact that a real player is going to be SDIing the heck out of it.

 

[Ridel]

Yea there is no way you can hit confirm with the charging hits. I think it's there purely for cosmetic reasons and serves no real practical use.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Plot twist: the hitboxes on Kamui's moves don't match their animations. All of her aerials are actually cleverly disguised lightning kicks, and all of her grounded normals are Zelda jabs. Guess we'd better pack it up people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Raziek]

I have noticed some slow moves in Corrins trailer for example.
Up Air
F Tilt
and some others. How do you think his slow animations can impact his tier placement. If I am wrong, please correct me. Thank you!

This does not warrant its own thread.

Merged into moveset speculation thread.

 

[OceloT42]

This may be straying off topic a bit, but could someone properly explain...
a) What are IASA frames
b) Does Corrin look like he has any
c) Is it advantageous
Thanks fellows!

 

[Deleted member]

This may be straying off topic a bit, but could someone properly explain...
a) What are IASA frames
b) Does Corrin look like he has any
c) Is it advantageous
Thanks fellows!

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

Control F -> FAF or IASA to get a decent and succinct summary.

An elaboration of sorts:

IASA AKA "Interruptible As Soon As" frames refer to the frames of a move at which point you can interrupt the frames of the move's animation and proceed to perform another action/attack, etc.

Probably the best example of this is Melee Marth's D-tilt, which has the following frame data:

D Tilt

Total: 49
Hit: 7-9
IASA: 20 (CAN'T INTERRUPT W/ SHIELD)

Source

Translation: Melee Marth's Dtilt lasts a total of 49 frames, but it's animation can be interrupted by another action as soon as frame 20 of the move (hence "Interruptible As Soon As") into another option (save for shield as noted).

Considering the footage with which we have to work it is difficult to see if Corrin truly has any IASA frames, IMO. Although I haven't honestly been paying very much attention to any potential IASA frames in the footage.

A move having IASA frames is advantageous since it allows you to perform an action earlier than you normally would be able to, instead of having to wait out all of the frames of an attack you can do something else, so the move is not as much as a frame commitment. Such a capability becomes more significant if the IASA frames are notably early compared to the normal endframes of a move (e.g.: Melee Marth's case where it is a 29 frame gap between IASA and total frames).

 

[alguidrag]

Yeah he air dodge, receive the landing lag and get hit by Fsmash anyway happy ending

 

[Planty]

I'm not sure whether I saw correctly but his dragon helmet doesn't vanish while he's switching from DFS to Fsmash. Does this mean we can switch between dragon moves with minimal lag?

This would so cool. Unfortunately, I went through the gif frame by frame and you could see the helmet come off very briefly.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I've read the entire thread over the last couple of days and I'm loving the analysis. Is this the place where we will post our Kamui finds when he comes out?