Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[Armagon]

Pretty sure it does a mini quick bite and there is lag to untransform his/her arm.

Yeah, i noticed what looks like a mini-bite but it looks to fast to be an attack (to me at least). I can agree with the lag to untransform the arm. That's actually my biggest fear with Corrin, the transformation will result in end-lag that will prevent Corrin from doing a lot of things. That being said, you may able to act out of it before the transformations are finished. We won't know completely until Corrin's been released (which, BTW, February is in 2 weeks and we still don't have a release date for Corrin.).

 

[alguidrag]

Its still a bite(but is too quickly that you need to slow the video to notice) so i think that this mini bite dont differ in time of a hand retreat

 

[Zult]

Why would they have a projectile stun if you can't follow up with an attack? Think about that for a second

And I see no mini bite. Also, they say "can" follow up with a bite. Emphasis on "can"

 

[OceloT42]

I've noticed a lot of people on this thread say that Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot may not be able to follow up from a long range because of the mandatory bite afterwards. But i don't think the bit is mandatory. At around the 4:45 mark in the Direct, we see Corrin use an uncharged Dragon Fang Shot on Diddy Kong but we don't see the bite happen. Considering that the bite can be charged as well, this leads me to believe that the bite part of Dragon Fang Shot isn't required and Corrin may be able to follow up on a mid-range Dragon Fang Shot.

Regarding Corrin's overall strength and weakness, i decided to do a bit of research. Knowing that Sakurai designed the DLC newcomers to closely resemble their appearance and abilities in their original games, i decided to look up Corrin's raw stat growths (in other words, his stat growths without the player costuming their growth rates). His Strength and Speed seem to be his strong points while his defense is somewhat on the low side. This could mean that Corrin is potentially a glass canon. However, take this with a grain of salt as these stats could mean nothing in terms of his Smash Bros potential. What do you guys think?

(If any of the stuff i said here has been said before, i apologize. I'm new here).

It is true that he doesn't do the mini bite though for an uncharged DFS but Diddy Kong is hardly paralyzed for more than half a second. Even Sonic couldn't reach there fast enough.
Good job finding those stats though. Who knows it could be true, cos the trailer proves nothing.

 

[alguidrag]

But remember the dragonstone gives him a huge defense boost while lower his speed and since kamui looks like used to dragon power we can expect either 2 things
1 some of his dragon moves will be slow
2 some of his dragon moves will give him super/heavy armor (maybe)
Its Just a throught and probably wrong

 

[OceloT42]

Oh yeah important question, do you think any if at all, attack will have super armor or at least launch resistance?

 

[Zult]

Oh yeah important question, do you think any if at all, attack will have super armor or at least launch resistance?

Not really to be honest. Maybe the bite after DFS. Maybe, but I honestly doubt it

 

[Armagon]

It is true that he doesn't do the mini bite though for an uncharged DFS but Diddy Kong is hardly paralyzed for more than half a second. Even Sonic couldn't reach there fast enough.
Good job finding those stats though. Who knows it could be true, cos the trailer proves nothing.

Yeah Diddy Kong was barely paralyzed although that could be at 0%. Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that the paralyze effect lasts longer depending on how much damage the opponent has taken. If Diddy Kong was at 100%, maybe an uncharged DFS might give you enough time to follow up. I'm still thinking that the bite is optional because Sakurai mentioned that it could be charged.

Why would they have a projectile stun if you can't follow up with an attack? Think about that for a second

And I see no mini bite. Also, they say "can" follow up with a bite. Emphasis on "can"

Yeah, it wouldn't make sense to have a paralyzing move and not being able to follow up on it. Unless the projectile part of DFS deals like 20% but i highly doubt that.

 

[ARGHETH]

Why would they have a projectile stun if you can't follow up with an attack? Think about that for a second

And I see no mini bite. Also, they say "can" follow up with a bite. Emphasis on "can"

Umm...what? The entire point of stun is that you have time to punish your opponent.

The "mini bite" they're referring to is the animation for Corrin to close his arm mouth thing after he fires it. It has a similar animation to the actual bite, which is why they're referring it to as such. Also, if we're being that precise with the wording, be aware that this isn't the original trailer and announcer.

 

[TTYK]

Side b still looks incredible. In theory you could tech chase them with it as long as you cancelled.

 

[LancerStaff]

I thought Cloud's nair would be as slow as Ike's. I thought Ryu having a bad grab would make him mid tier at best. Sometimes you have to throw logic out the window and stop thinking they wouldn't do something because it's not balanced. Bowser now kills off a grab at 75. Ryu has kill confirms at 60 from 2 frame moves. Cloud has set ups into finishing touch to kill at at 50.

Is it to hard to believe Corrin would have a frame 3 or 4 jab?

I think things to be potentially really good (borderline OP) so far is his back air and down tilt. They just look way too good. Even if they are a frame or 2 slower than what we've predicted, they would still insanely fast.

The opposite is also true. People thought Mewtwo was going to even be decent and got burned for it. People thought (and still think apparently) that Roy's a high tier and he's trash for a number of reasons and hasn't gotten a single buff (IIRC). They freakin' nerfed Marth and Lucina a patch ago for no apparent reason. Like I've said, everything either fits into FFA balance or as a band-aid to make characters work in 1v1s without significantly effecting FFAs. Either Corrin's super OP for FFAs, which hasn't really happened in Smash 4 and definitely not to such a degree, or Corrin's just going to be a character that doesn't gel with 1v1s.

Frame 3? Yes. Frame 4? Wouldn't bet on it. And Cloud has a frame 4 jab, but it's underwhelming because the FAF on the individual hits is slow.

Actually, any number of things could ruin a move. Corrin's Dtilt for example... Let's say it does combo. What if Ftilt isn't safe on hit at combo percents and that's the only thing that reaches properly? What if it only combos at the base of the move and comes out too slow to be relevant that close? Heck, what if the first frame of the attack doesn't combo but only the second does? I mean, there's a ton of moves like this already. Lucas's Nair for example comes out quick, does a truckload of damage, has a huge hitbox, and isn't terribly laggy. Problem? Hilariously unsafe on hit due to being intentionally built to be easy to fall out of. Literally if not for the one problem it'd be great. There's a ton moves like this... Again, even Cloud's sporting one. Dsmash can be teched out of.

Why would they have a projectile stun if you can't follow up with an attack? Think about that for a second

And I see no mini bite. Also, they say "can" follow up with a bite. Emphasis on "can"

Because it makes the move harder to challenge without being harder to avoid. Even against a single player it works out...

Also sing and the uncharged waft exist.

 

[alguidrag]

Lancer i think your function here is balance things, because we all are looking pros about corrin, and you are balacing thay saying all cons i could think

 

[OceloT42]

Yeah Diddy Kong was barely paralyzed although that could be at 0%. Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that the paralyze effect lasts longer depending on how much damage the opponent has taken. If Diddy Kong was at 100%, maybe an uncharged DFS might give you enough time to follow up. I'm still thinking that the bite is optional because Sakurai mentioned that it could be charged.


Yeah, it wouldn't make sense to have a paralyzing move and not being able to follow up on it. Unless the projectile part of DFS deals like 20% but i highly doubt that.

Stun time (taking ZSS Paralyzer as an example) doesn't depend on damage but how much you charge it.I thought it was damage dependent too, but then my friend showed me a clip of him stunning Bowser at 0%,100%,and 300%.All were the same.
So the only way to get off an attack after max charge stun is the bite? I certainly hope not.
Also I like your profile picture

 

[ARGHETH]

Stun time (taking ZSS Paralyzer as an example) doesn't depend on damage but how much you charge it.I thought it was damage dependent too, but then my friend showed me a clip of him stunning Bowser at 0%,100%,and 300%.All were the same.
So the only way to get off an attack after max charge stun is the bite? I certainly hope not.

Nah, uncharged biteless paralyzer doesn't seem to have that much endlag. Corrin can probably get a dashgrab / Ftilt or something if they're outside of bite range.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would they have a projectile stun if you can't follow up with an attack? Think about that for a second

This. Plus if we look carefully on the Diddy sequence, the bite occurs. But it's a different version of the bite. My guess is that if you stun your opponent but he isn't in range of full bite, the bite just closes your hand. It looks quicker than the full bite, that may allow follow-ups.

Also jab 1 is dragon fang, jab 2 & 3 yato blade.

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

Taking a different approach, I don't think the bite is mandatory on neutral B because the animations in Fates don't always have a bite followup after the shot, the mouth just closes.

Also, will this thread be replaced with a proper moveset discussion thread when the character comes out?

 

[LordShade67]

TBF, Sakurai was......kinda vague on how the bite followup on DFS works. IE button press or otherwise. Just my opinion.

Also, I'd imagine so on the moveset discussion thing, yes.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Bite is 100% mandatory yes. Do you control if you charge the bite Y/N? If you watch every single scenario were Corrin full charges a shot its followed by a laggier bite. So maybe they mistranslated how bite works? Or maybe they charged the bite in all the footage just because? Also at that distance seems like there's barely a window for a follow up. It even looks like Diddy can shield/spot dodge/ or roll away. Shielding DFS seems very punishable so not the best projectile for neutral.

On the other hand ZSS uncharged paralyzer does jab lock. If you space it where the bite doesn't hit you should have a nice jab lock set up. If full charge DFS doesn't have a laggy bite then maybe there are follow ups.

Jab does kinda slightly look faster than Clouds or equal to Cloud's. Slowed down to frames it looked like a 2 frame, but the video is 30 fps so maybe frame 3-4. Frame 2 would be insane for a swordsman...

 

[LancerStaff]

Jab does kinda slightly look faster than Clouds or equal to Cloud's. Slowed down to frames it looked like a 2 frame, but the video is 30 fps so maybe frame 3-4. Frame 2 would be insane for a swordsman...

Looking at the range... Seems like quite a bit. Still not seeing f4. Then it leads to what looks like a rapid jab. Is there a normal/gentleman jab or no? Rapid jabs usually aren't that good because characters tend to fall out of them. If it is frame 4 then it's possible it's drawback is that the thing doesn't link properly, which we may of saw some footage of.

Again, it's all conjecture. I'd test the move ASAP if I were you guys. (I'm kinda in charge of the Pits patch notes not that it takes much effort to make a list of changes on them so that day's probably going to be busy for me.) See if it's escapable and then if so see if any of the early hits are safe on shield.

 

[Deleted member]

Looking at the range... Seems like quite a bit. Still not seeing f4. Then it leads to what looks like a rapid jab. Is there a normal/gentleman jab or no? Rapid jabs usually aren't that good because characters tend to fall out of them. If it is frame 4 then it's possible it's drawback is that the thing doesn't link properly, which we may of saw some footage of.

Again, it's all conjecture. I'd test the move ASAP if I were you guys. (I'm kinda in charge of the Pits patch notes not that it takes much effort to make a list of changes on them so that day's probably going to be busy for me.) See if it's escapable and then if so see if any of the early hits are safe on shield.

There is indeed a Gentleman jab:

 

[Athrel]

Bite is 100% mandatory yes. Do you control if you charge the bite Y/N? If you watch every single scenario were Corrin full charges a shot its followed by a laggier bite. So maybe they mistranslated how bite works?

Looking at the range... Seems like quite a bit. Still not seeing f4. Then it leads to what looks like a rapid jab. Is there a normal/gentleman jab or no?

Both a charged DFS followed by an uncharged bite and Corrin using a 3 hit jab are shown in the portion of gameplay on castle siege.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Looking at the range... Seems like quite a bit. Still not seeing f4. Then it leads to what looks like a rapid jab. Is there a normal/gentleman jab or no? Rapid jabs usually aren't that good because characters tend to fall out of them. If it is frame 4 then it's possible it's drawback is that the thing doesn't link properly, which we may of saw some footage of.

Again, it's all conjecture. I'd test the move ASAP if I were you guys. (I'm kinda in charge of the Pits patch notes not that it takes much effort to make a list of changes on them so that day's probably going to be busy for me.) See if it's escapable and then if so see if any of the early hits are safe on shield.

Edit: Oops i was too slow

Okay weird it wont let me quote you. Yeah but bite is mandatory so DFS getting shielded gets you punished so should test shield stun. Charged is easy to react to so follows ups yes, but in a Corrin ditto ill spot dogde the shot and counter the bite... Wait this skill is amazing at reading spot dodges if you delay the bite hmmm. Well So much testing to do.

 

[LordShade67]

Both a charged DFS followed by an uncharged bite and Corrin using a 3 hit jab are shown in the portion of gameplay on castle siege.

Said part for DFS in question.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah but bite is mandatory so DFS getting shielded gets you punished so should test shield stun. Charged is easy to react to so follows ups yes, but in a Corrin ditto ill spot dogde the shot and counter the bite... Wait this skill is amazing at reading spot dodges if you delay the bite hmmm. Well So much testing to do.

Ehh... Shot looks mighty slow to punish a spotdodge. Also electrical projectiles such as this do little to no shieldstun, meaning even if you can cancel the bite or whatever it's still not going to be remotely safe to throw out.

Best bet is that it tears through shields, but even then most decent characters can just jump over and Bair or something, and that's assuming it does enough shield damage to make it that scary.

Said part for DFS in question.

That's uncharged? Still looks painfully slow.

 

[LordShade67]

That's uncharged? Still looks painfully slow.

No. The BITE'S uncharged. The Shot's charged.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Ehh... Shot looks mighty slow to punish a spotdodge. Also electrical projectiles such as this do little to no shieldstun, meaning even if you can cancel the bite or whatever it's still not going to be remotely safe to throw out.

Best bet is that it tears through shields, but even then most decent characters can just jump over and Bair or something, and that's assuming it does enough shield damage to make it that scary.



That's uncharged? Still looks painfully slow.

Yea looks slow indeed I'm hoping it's treated as a Greninja water projectile with a status effect, but full charge does have follow ups, but who in there right mind will get hit by that. I can only see full charge hitting someone off stage into a free F-Smash?

Corrin has a tiny window to punish Ryu.

 

[Zult]

Okay weird it wont let me quote you. Yeah but bite is mandatory so DFS getting shielded gets you punished so should test shield stun. Charged is easy to react to so follows ups yes, but in a Corrin ditto ill spot dogde the shot and counter the bite... Wait this skill is amazing at reading spot dodges if you delay the bite hmmm. Well So much testing to do.

Eh, still not seeing the mandatory bite. If you guys are talking about that small tiny bite where it closes its mouth (the endlag of DFS) then I'm ok with it. If that really is a bite, then it basically has barely any lag. When Corrin hits an uncharged DFS, he is positive on hit (you can see his face change before Diddy gets out of hitstun). Which means when charged it definitely has follow ups. And they don't have to be stunned in one spot for you to make a follow up. You can follow their DI too like ZSS does with her dsmash into flip kick. And also, it shows the bite sending Falco to blast zone quite quickly and then make a note saying how strong it is. The last time Nintendo talked about move being strong was Cloud's finishing touch and forward smash along with Ryu's true shoryken. They don't joke when they say something is strong. If a charged bite will send people flying, then no doubt it will have some good shield pressure. So if you opponent is expecting to punish your bite after the DFS, you can mix it up and charge the bite while they are holding shield. If you hit the shield with the charged bite, it might be safe and might have decent shield push back. And considering this thing will kill early, I doubt anyone will want to risk dropping their shield early unless they are going for a read and guessing you will hold the bite until it's fully charged. Sort of like Toon Link's forward smash. People hold shield expecting the second hit. You shouldn't even be using DFS close range anyways. We have 2 really quick moves up close. Jab and down tilt.

You guys are saying why everything won't work using hypotheticals. Nothing works when it's seen coming. That's like saying "Sheik's fair is bad because everyone can trade with it". People are still getting hit by PK2s from Ness. There are things called set ups and traps. Nothing will look like it'll work when just used in a vacuum. Gotta use your imagination and think a little bit.

*Opponent is in the air without a jump and is about to land right next to me*
"Hmm, if I do a charged DFS, then he will have to air dodge or do something to not get hit by it. He will most likely air dodge to avoid it. When he does, I can use a charged bite to punish the landing lag from the air dodge! Great, let's try it"
*Gets a KO at 80% (or whatever the percent is when it kills)*

It's not that hard guys. Any move can be made to look bad when you name every scenario that beats it. Hindsight is 20/20

 

[LancerStaff]

No. The BITE'S uncharged. The Shot's charged.

That's what I ment... That bite takes forever. Unless the shot holds the opponent in place twice as long as ZSS can (which is impossible without a mechanical change BTW) not even Sheik's needles would work.

Yea looks slow indeed I'm hoping it's treated as a Greninja water projectile with a status effect, but full charge does have follow ups, but who in there right mind will get hit by that. I can only see full charge hitting someone off stage into a free F-Smash?

Corrin has a tiny window to punish Ryu.

Remember pre-patch Arcthunder? There was a sweetspot of sorts where you could follow-up... Too close and the attack would be over before Robin could react. To late and, while the opponent would be held long enough, Robin couldn't close the gap. Basically if it were closer then Corrin would still be in endlag.

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

Remember pre-patch Arcthunder? There was a sweetspot of sorts where you could follow-up... Too close and the attack would be over before Robin could react. To late and, while the opponent would be held long enough, Robin couldn't close the gap. Basically if it were closer then Corrin would still be in endlag.

there is a sweetspot somewhere, Corrin had time to jump and do an n-air before the stun ended.

 

[LancerStaff]

there is a sweetspot somewhere, Corrin had time to jump and do an n-air before the stun ended.

Ryu was at max range, and I don't think Corrin could reach. Closer and the hitstun would end sooner because the opponent would be hit sooner.

 

[ZephyrYoshi]

Ryu was at max range, and I don't think Corrin could reach. Closer and the hitstun would end sooner because the opponent would be hit sooner.

you're underestimating the shot speed.

 

[Armagon]

Ryu was at max range, and I don't think Corrin could reach. Closer and the hitstun would end sooner because the opponent would be hit sooner.

While that looked like a max charged DFS, we don't know if that was at max range (although it could be likely). Since Corrin appears to have decent speed, i think he could've reached Ryu in time. The only reason he didn't in the footage was because that footage was recorded using CPUs (Level 5s by the looks of it) and CPUs aren't very smart.

 

[False Sense]

While that looked like a max charged DFS, we don't know if that was at max range (although it could be likely). Since Corrin appears to have decent speed, i think he could've reached Ryu in time. The only reason he didn't in the footage was because that footage was recorded using CPUs (Level 5s by the looks of it) and CPUs aren't very smart.

Practically speaking, he might not even need speed. A few steps more and Corrin could hit Ryu with a tipper F-Smash.

 

[Armagon]

Practically speaking, he might not even need speed. A few steps more and Corrin could hit Ryu with a tipper F-Smash.

That is true although i have the slight feeling that the start-up lag on Corrin's F-Smash might give Ryu enough time to escape. I think a better option would be to jump towards Ryu and use Dragon Lunge. That or maybe a F-Air.

 

[False Sense]

That is true although i have the slight feeling that the start-up lag on Corrin's F-Smash might give Ryu enough time to escape. I think a better option would be to jump towards Ryu and use Dragon Lunge. That or maybe a F-Air.

Corrin's F-Smash doesn't have a long startup to it. Within that gif alone, Corrin has enough time to jump and use a full N-Air before Ryu is knocked out of stun (also worth noting: we can't accurately gauge how long the stun effect lasts due to Ryu being hit out of stun before it's finished). That's enough time to fire off an F-Smash.

 

[Armagon]

Corrin's F-Smash doesn't have a long startup to it. Within that gif alone, Corrin has enough time to jump and use a full N-Air before Ryu is knocked out of stun (also worth noting: we can't accurately gauge how long the stun effect lasts due to Ryu being hit out of stun before it's finished). That's enough time to fire off an F-Smash.

Yeah good point. Its just the fact that you mentioned an F-Smash and F-Smashes usually have small start-up lag. We don't know how fast Corrin's F-Smash comes out and while it looks to come out decently quick, it still may have start-up lag. Again, we won't fully know until we have Corrin in our hands.



Back to the question of whether the bite on DFS is mandatory, i watched the UK version of the Final Smash Direct. Unlike the American dub, there was no English speaking voice. When it got to the part where DFS hits Diddy Kong, the subtitles say "after firing, the transformed hand can also bite a nearby opponent". If the subtitles are a direct translation of what Sakurai is saying, then we can assume that the bite isn't mandatory.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Corrin's F-Smash doesn't have a long startup to it. Within that gif alone, Corrin has enough time to jump and use a full N-Air before Ryu is knocked out of stun (also worth noting: we can't accurately gauge how long the stun effect lasts due to Ryu being hit out of stun before it's finished). That's enough time to fire off an F-Smash.

Female Corrin doesn't hit ryu she jumps past him.

Back to the question of whether the bite on DFS is mandatory, i watched the UK version of the Final Smash Direct. Unlike the American dub, there was no English speaking voice. When it got to the part where DFS hits Diddy Kong, the subtitles say "after firing, the transformed hand can also bite a nearby opponent". If the subtitles are a direct translation of what Sakurai is saying, then we can assume that the bite isn't mandatory.

Charging the bite is the only option you're allowed... the small quick bite comes out after every DFS. (Watched every DFS footage all contain a bite... (benefit of the doubt could be a CPU thing) but bite is to Fox/falco putting laser away it's an animation with a hit box though.

 

[Zult]

I'm still not seeing a bite. Just looks like the ending animation to me.

And anyone who gets hit by a charged DFS at somewhat high percents should prepare to die because unlike ZSS Corrin actually has smash attacks that will kill. I think they are stunned long enough for you to do almost anything you want.

 

[meowmere]

When it got to the part where DFS hits Diddy Kong, the subtitles say "after firing, the transformed hand can also bite a nearby opponent". If the subtitles are a direct translation of what Sakurai is saying, then we can assume that the bite isn't mandatory.

I think the "can" refers to the possibilty of biting your opponent IF you are in range.

 

[OceloT42]

I don't believe they would have given you a stun projectile without the guarantee you would be able to act on it.
Trust Lord Sakurai, my dragons.Believe.

EDIT: I'm sure everyone has had this thought,but could the bite of DFS be optional?Like, say, Link's Fsmash?Or Climhazzard (Cloud up B)?
That's the only thing that makes sense to me,all other DFS possibilities look like silly gimmicks,with the exception of biting if an opponent is near (and what if they are small? Then I'm punished...).
I trust you Sakurai.
Thoughts?