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The inverse can also apply, where people get overhyped about the strengths of tools without considering the weaknesses even once.
So your rebuttal to what you believe is overly optimistic theory is overly pessimistic theory?
There are flaws in your argument.
To preface, I'm not so personally invested in Kamui's competitive viability that I'm going to show up in the CCI thread in six months calling everyone out for 'sleeping on' my special DLC snowflake. I'd love to see the character succeed in tournament to the degree where I can actually reasonably expect to see them make it into high-level brackets, but I understand that no amount of theorizing or wishful thinking will make that happen if the character simply doesn't have what it takes.
It seems to have the same range as the two combined, the move looks like it has some startup though, but he seems to travel as fast as Rosa's with a hitbox, It looks like an overall decent recover. Nothing really special.
Sakurai even said the up b has a "wide atk range" and its hitbox is big because of the large wings. I just said it just has startup, kind of similar to Rosa's up b where they pause for a moment before doing the move.
I know that. But where the hitboxes are matter. Like if they're only on the wings, and not his body then people can just drop in the middle and spike him or something. I wonder tho if angling the move would cover that though?
Whenever I use their dash attack when I'm playing them for funsies I ask myself... why?
Same. I dig characters with swords and wings of any type!
I must have missed it. But what exactly does Corrin have that will make her anything below mid tier?
I would think that angling might cover some of the blindspots above Corrin because the wings will be on top, but thats a spike though, a lot of characters are vulnerable to spikes, including Rosalina, who actually has a decent recovery. Plus, Corrins seems to be traveling pretty fast when he does it so it would probably be hard to hit him like Rosa when hes recovering. My point is that he might be vulnerable to spikes, but spiking a competent player isn't really easy to do because many dair have high start up and timing the atk and reading a tricky opponents direction isn't really easy to do. If it was, then everyone that would get knocked off stage would be spiked everytime.
Well, looks like we have to wait till February to know.
How is the idea that Corrin's going to be viable because two unrelated characters are sound in any way?
Range doesn't instantly make you good. See Shulk. Speed does, but trailers lie and the mould that Corrin fits doesn't allow for much of it. Rosalina? Not once did I say that she wouldn't be viable, just to wait and see how Luma functions. Luma functions well and so does Rosalina. Heck, it's the very fact that Luma can potentially die in one hit is why she's so good. Since Luma's going to be dead 70% of the time in a FFA he needs to be absurdly powerful.
It's one thing to convince somebody completely, but it's another to instill some doubt. If there's doubt then they ultimately won't explode on launch if things don't turn out. If they let things get out of control... Well, the Mewtwo boards would know since everybody was expecting PM Mewtwo for some god-awful reason.
Mewtwo has good disjoints (slightly less then Marth actually) and he was bottom for a long time. Shulk and DDD have a ton of disjoint but they're low and bottom. Marth, Lucina and Roy are low too. The projectile I still think will be trash in neutral. Fsmash probably has too much startup to react to rolls and honestly I'd rather dasg grab or dash Usmash. Trailer also made Shulk look like a combo machine and yet he couldn't be further from it. Bair, with that range and power, won't be fast for sure. Nair will probably be good, but Fair is definitely something we need to see the data on.
I'm not really seeing this. Most of Corrin's moves don't look like they have that much kill power and the ones that do seem to have drawbacks to make sure they're not that great in FFA's. Tipper F-smash didn't look like it was that impressive in any of the instances shown so untipped is probably very weak. Combine that with the fact that fishing for a tipper on a move that long would be tough to do consistently in an FFA and F-smash just looks like an OK move in both game modes. Dragon fang shot and its followup (which I agree doesn't look very usable overall) doesn't seem feasible to use for KO's in FFA's considering that you probably want to be able to charge it from a range, but paralyzing an opponent from far away might just lead to delivering a KO to someone else and it's unlikely that the followup would be able to be charged much in an FFA in the event that the shot did hit at close range. Dragon lunge doesn't look like any of its followups have real KO power and neither does Dragon ascent. Counter surge could be OK in FFA's, but it seems like Shulk's in the sense that it can probably be slipped out of. None of their aerials aside from B-air and potentially U-air look like they have any real KO power and U-air doesn't seem to have much more range than a Marcina one and probably doesn't KO till late. That pretty much leaves B-air (which I don't think will hit too hard based on its sound effect but also be decently quick) for a KO move that looks like it can be reliably fished for in FFA's and even then probably only at the edge or offstage. The other two smashes might be good also. They don't overall seem to have the FFA volatility that Zelda has with being able to sneak up and lightning kick or having a charge projectile that kills at range or being able to snipe with Farore's wind or being able to Din's fire two opponents that might be paying more attention to each other than rather than her. Corrin'll probably be more well rounded as a result which can mean passable frame data for 1v1. Also while Sakurai's stated that he wants to have characters have different strengths in the different game modes that doesn't always happen. Ryu and villager (not implying that Corrin'll be at their strength) are excellent in pretty much any mode and while pocket was nerfed for doubles they're probably going to be allowed to stay like that. We also don't know Corrin's weight which is an important factor.
Shulk has bad frame data due to Monando Arts changing them. Corrin doesn't have anything like the Arts, so he probably won't have that problem. Also, considering he has range on two moves, I really doubt they're going to go the Shulk route across the board.
Let's see...Side B is likely going to be mediocre at best in FFA due to stopping Corrin, which means any opponent can just hit him. Also, if another opponent is next to the speared one, they can just steal the hit. His regular sword moves will likely have frame data close to Marth/Robin due to having around the same range, and side smash's probably medium damage when not tippered and long animation means it's really risky in FFAs.
You are assuming they revolve this game around FFA because you probably heard that from someone else. When in fact, no one knows how they balance the game at all, especially DLC characters.How is the idea that Corrin's going to be viable because two unrelated characters are sound in any way?
Meanwhile I don't think I've had anybody deny the similarities to Zelda.
I could, but Zelda's definitely the most apt comparison. Palutena can kinda defend herself a bit but she lacks a bunch of strong chargable moves with horizontal range. (Note the mid tier status in Japan on Pally.) I still don't think Corrin will be as bad as Zelda either, but that's because Corrin lacks a long-ranged teleport that kills. Since he doesn't have an easy GTFO option for FFAs (that counter looks baaaaad lol) ultimately he needs to have at least some way of defending himself. Just won't be enough.
I mean, when you put it that way...
Range doesn't instantly make you good. See Shulk. Speed does, but trailers lie and the mould that Corrin fits doesn't allow for much of it. Rosalina? Not once did I say that she wouldn't be viable, just to wait and see how Luma functions. Luma functions well and so does Rosalina. Heck, it's the very fact that Luma can potentially die in one hit is why she's so good. Since Luma's going to be dead 70% of the time in a FFA he needs to be absurdly powerful.
You're telling me to be nice but you're claiming I bashed an unrelated character a year ago... That's not how it works. You're also not explaining why you think Corrin's frame data will be good besides an unreliable trailer. I mean, if Corrin has all these powerful moves and good frame data he's going to be OP as hell in FFAs, and then he's going to get nerfed hard in the inevitable post Corrin and Bayo patch.
It's one thing to convince somebody completely, but it's another to instill some doubt. If there's doubt then they ultimately won't explode on launch if things don't turn out. If they let things get out of control... Well, the Mewtwo boards would know since everybody was expecting PM Mewtwo for some god-awful reason.
Mewtwo has good disjoints (slightly less then Marth actually) and he was bottom for a long time. Shulk and DDD have a ton of disjoint but they're low and bottom. Marth, Lucina and Roy are low too. The projectile I still think will be trash in neutral. Fsmash probably has too much startup to react to rolls and honestly I'd rather dasg grab or dash Usmash. Trailer also made Shulk look like a combo machine and yet he couldn't be further from it. Bair, with that range and power, won't be fast for sure. Nair will probably be good, but Fair is definitely something we need to see the data on.
Hate to "break it" to you, but Pit's been considered a high tier pretty much since launch. Right now it's pretty much agreed upon. Against any other high tier he's like -1 at worst, and the only characters he (debatably) struggles against are Sonic, Sheik and ZSS. Most characters do too so it's not a big deal, and it's not like it's an instant loss for Pit either. But let's not turn this into a debate about Pit's viability, hm?
I think they've said somewhere that they balance between internal FFA/1v1 testing, Japanese tier lists, and FG data. Lancer's been arguing that they concentrate on FFAs for a while now, so you really shouldn't bother.
Looks like he has a bad run and air speed so will have a weak punish game, his throws look like they have high FAF, his specials look pretty mediocre..
How is the idea that Corrin's going to be viable because two unrelated characters are sound in any way?
Meanwhile I don't think I've had anybody deny the similarities to Zelda.
I could, but Zelda's definitely the most apt comparison. Palutena can kinda defend herself a bit but she lacks a bunch of strong chargable moves with horizontal range. (Note the mid tier status in Japan on Pally.) I still don't think Corrin will be as bad as Zelda either, but that's because Corrin lacks a long-ranged teleport that kills. Since he doesn't have an easy GTFO option for FFAs (that counter looks baaaaad lol) ultimately he needs to have at least some way of defending himself. Just won't be enough.
I mean, when you put it that way...
Range doesn't instantly make you good. See Shulk. Speed does, but trailers lie and the mould that Corrin fits doesn't allow for much of it. Rosalina? Not once did I say that she wouldn't be viable, just to wait and see how Luma functions. Luma functions well and so does Rosalina. Heck, it's the very fact that Luma can potentially die in one hit is why she's so good. Since Luma's going to be dead 70% of the time in a FFA he needs to be absurdly powerful.
You're telling me to be nice but you're claiming I bashed an unrelated character a year ago... That's not how it works. You're also not explaining why you think Corrin's frame data will be good besides an unreliable trailer. I mean, if Corrin has all these powerful moves and good frame data he's going to be OP as hell in FFAs, and then he's going to get nerfed hard in the inevitable post Corrin and Bayo patch.
Maybe its wrong for me to assume that you bashed a character like Rosalina a year ago, however, other people did, with similar reason why you think Corrin might be bad to. Honestly, both of us don't know for sure if Corrin is viable or not because we didn't play the character yet. Like you said, speculation doesn'tmean anything, Lets just wait and see.
You do realize they're not finish with the character right, they're are still balancing him. I played the Best Buy Demo of this game before it came out and played Rosalina. Her Fsmash had weak kill power in that Demo that I couldn't kill someone near the edge at 120%. Now Look at the move, the knockback is scary. My point is that you can't judge frame data and kill power from a demo/trailer because the devolopers are still working on the character and thats why they're are going to be released on February and not now.
Well obviously between the video being 30 fps, character percentages not being shown, certain visual effects like the rage steam potentially being edited out, and the fact that they're still balancing the character like you mentioned, getting an accurate picture of how Corrin's going to work from what's been shown is nearly impossible. This is a speculation thread so I'm doing just that and saying what I think of the moves will be like. I didn't mean to come off as if I knew for certain how the character would shape up overall. I also wasn't trying to imply that Corrin would be weak overall. I do think they might be lacking in reliable KO power and I don't think think they'll have many combo's like some have been hoping for, but I'm pretty optimistic about a lot of their moves.
FFA: Free for All, or 4 player mode
I'm pretty sure the A stands for active in FAF
I would be surprised if it didn't, and I hope it does have, I like to run cancel Usmash, as long as it's not as bad as Samus's i'll be happy
Yeah me too,it can be a good anti air and chase smash if I does have a feet hitbox
1. Zelda is very different from Corrin.How is the idea that Corrin's going to be viable because two unrelated characters are sound in any way?
Meanwhile I don't think I've had anybody deny the similarities to Zelda.
I could, but Zelda's definitely the most apt comparison. Palutena can kinda defend herself a bit but she lacks a bunch of strong chargable moves with horizontal range. (Note the mid tier status in Japan on Pally.) I still don't think Corrin will be as bad as Zelda either, but that's because Corrin lacks a long-ranged teleport that kills. Since he doesn't have an easy GTFO option for FFAs (that counter looks baaaaad lol) ultimately he needs to have at least some way of defending himself. Just won't be enough.
I mean, when you put it that way...
Range doesn't instantly make you good. See Shulk. Speed does, but trailers lie and the mould that Corrin fits doesn't allow for much of it. Rosalina? Not once did I say that she wouldn't be viable, just to wait and see how Luma functions. Luma functions well and so does Rosalina. Heck, it's the very fact that Luma can potentially die in one hit is why she's so good. Since Luma's going to be dead 70% of the time in a FFA he needs to be absurdly powerful.
You're telling me to be nice but you're claiming I bashed an unrelated character a year ago... That's not how it works. You're also not explaining why you think Corrin's frame data will be good besides an unreliable trailer. I mean, if Corrin has all these powerful moves and good frame data he's going to be OP as hell in FFAs, and then he's going to get nerfed hard in the inevitable post Corrin and Bayo patch.
It's one thing to convince somebody completely, but it's another to instill some doubt. If there's doubt then they ultimately won't explode on launch if things don't turn out. If they let things get out of control... Well, the Mewtwo boards would know since everybody was expecting PM Mewtwo for some god-awful reason.
Mewtwo has good disjoints (slightly less then Marth actually) and he was bottom for a long time. Shulk and DDD have a ton of disjoint but they're low and bottom. Marth, Lucina and Roy are low too. The projectile I still think will be trash in neutral. Fsmash probably has too much startup to react to rolls and honestly I'd rather dasg grab or dash Usmash. Trailer also made Shulk look like a combo machine and yet he couldn't be further from it. Bair, with that range and power, won't be fast for sure. Nair will probably be good, but Fair is definitely something we need to see the data on.
Hate to "break it" to you, but Pit's been considered a high tier pretty much since launch. Right now it's pretty much agreed upon. Against any other high tier he's like -1 at worst, and the only characters he (debatably) struggles against are Sonic, Sheik and ZSS. Most characters do too so it's not a big deal, and it's not like it's an instant loss for Pit either. But let's not turn this into a debate about Pit's viability, hm?
Considering he leans down as he crosses his arms over himself and shifts them, I'd be surprised if there wasn't. Whether it'll be like Lucario where the lower hit sends them into the sweetspot, or like Sheik's where the lower hit is just a sourspot, we won't know for another month.
And Shadow Ball.
I don't think Mewtwo had the kill power and combos to compensate for him being Jiggly weight and having above average lenght.
Name one combo that Mewtwo can do now that he couldn't before. Nair landing combos are just easier now, always was possible. Uair was a nice power buff but otherwise his kill power's the same.
