Moveset Speculation and Discussion Thread

[OceloT42]

Guys don't fight,just support Kamui.
Or worship Arceus.
On a more serious note, does anyone feel that landing tipped fsmash will be like Marth's,with early kills? I think it should be.

 

[exnecross]

Seems to be quite a bit of endlag on most of his moves.

Fair has a hard landing like Marth's; it may be safe if used at the start of a jump but definitely no combo potential. Uair seems like it has a ton of endlag, but that doesn't matter quite as much since uair is typically a kill move or combo ender. Dair seems the worst for competitive, with the only outcome being a hard punish if your opponent's shield trigger is working properly. Nair appears to be safe, but with how long it stays out I'd be surprised if you could combo off of it.

Ftilt is ridiculously laggy unless it has IASA frames, which it very likely doesn't. Dtilt looks amazing, and from my observation it appears to be her best move. It's hard to tell how much endlag it has, but it doesn't appear to have much. The angle they are sent is perfect for combos, at low percents you could utilt and mid percents uair. It seems like they made this move to be a combo starter, so let's hope they don't screw this one up. If it can lead into uair kills like Sheik's dair does then that is a big positive for this character.

Dragon lunge comes out quite slow, but it looks like a good option for catching rolls. Appears to be unsafe in neutral otherwise. Definitely won't lead into any kill combos, but perhaps you could chase them after canceling or something. Doesn't seem that great to be honest.

Throws are also a bit disappointing since you have to wait for that dragon animation to end before following up, which leads me to think there won't be many throw combos. Hopefully one of them is a kill throw.

Those are just my thoughts after watching the trailer a lot. I am not too hopeful for this character being that great due to the endlag on most of his moves.

 

[Spark31]

Seems to be quite a bit of endlag on most of his moves.

Fair has a hard landing like Marth's; it may be safe if used at the start of a jump but definitely no combo potential. Uair seems like it has a ton of endlag, but that doesn't matter quite as much since uair is typically a kill move or combo ender. Dair seems the worst for competitive, with the only outcome being a hard punish if your opponent's shield trigger is working properly. Nair appears to be safe, but with how long it stays out I'd be surprised if you could combo off of it.

Ftilt is ridiculously laggy unless it has IASA frames, which it very likely doesn't. Dtilt looks amazing, and from my observation it appears to be her best move. It's hard to tell how much endlag it has, but it doesn't appear to have much. The angle they are sent is perfect for combos, at low percents you could utilt and mid percents uair. It seems like they made this move to be a combo starter, so let's hope they don't screw this one up. If it can lead into uair kills like Sheik's dair does then that is a big positive for this character.

Dragon lunge comes out quite slow, but it looks like a good option for catching rolls. Appears to be unsafe in neutral otherwise. Definitely won't lead into any kill combos, but perhaps you could chase them after canceling or something. Doesn't seem that great to be honest.

Throws are also a bit disappointing since you have to wait for that dragon animation to end before following up, which leads me to think there won't be many throw combos. Hopefully one of them is a kill throw.

Those are just my thoughts after watching the trailer a lot. I am not too hopeful for this character being that great due to the endlag on most of his moves.

During cloud's trailer we thought his F tilt looked stupidly laggy. He actually had a lot of IASA frames. I can see the same happening to Corrin.

 

[OceloT42]

Whats IASA?

 

[Glory Blaze]

Whats IASA?

Interruptible as soon as

 

[LevinViolin]

Whats IASA?

IASA stands for "Interruptible as soon as" and it is used to describe moves that can be acted out of before they "finish" normally.
IASA frames, frames where the move can be acted out of, are usually after the actual function of the move has ended. This is usually just to keep animations looking nice without adversely affecting the gameplay.

Cloud's side tilt, which was used as an example earlier, has IASA frames on the latter half of the animation. When you use his side tilt, he swings his sword downwards, then spends time pulling it back up into his idle stance. During the part of the animation where he is pulling his sword back up you can input anything to act out of that section of the animation.

You can see the same thing in Lucina's down taunt. She puts on her mask, and then she tosses it to the side. As soon as she starts to move her arm up to pull her mask off you can shield, walk, run, attack, or do anything you want.

 

[alguidrag]

Ftilt laggy? Looks like corrin can move after his swing the blade, so all laggy would be the animation itself (because would be strange to he move away when he is swing the sword right?)

The Fair i'm seeing more like a fusion of marth and cloud, both give me the same impression (his and cloud's)

Dair could be really good if he had a disjoint to catch in surprise some oponents

Dragon lunge seems pretty fast to me (but maybe not for players that play a lot with "flash" characters like sonic) a safe aprouxe because even if the oponent shield/roll you can still go away/chase

The throws I see the down as a read throw (the combo that you will need to read your oponent first not just YAY TRUE COMBO I GONNA SPAM THIS FOREVER)the up as a kill throw and maybe his back throw can surprise me and have the same knockback as robin's

 

[OceloT42]

True dat,I play Marth and comboes should be read combos,not "durr down throw to Blazer/Psychic fairs/Cross Slash durr durr"
No offence,just fg spammers...ugh

 

[OceloT42]

But, do you think tipped fsmash will have the same power as Marth's? For damage and knock back?

 

[meowmere]

But, do you think tipped fsmash will have the same power as Marth's? For damage and knock back?

I think Corrin's tipped fsmash will be a bit weaker than Marth's, but a lot weaker than Marth's when you don't hit at the tip. The range is just too long. One possible way fsmash could be absurdely powerful is if it has a ton of ending lag, but we can't really tell from a 30fps video, plus it could have changed anyway when Corrin will be released. And honestly, the chances are pretty low for us to get another showcase of the character before he releases.

 

[meowmere]

Switching topics, has anyone of you played FE Fates yet? And do you think it's as good as Awakening?
And, most importantly, to stay at the topic of the thread, have you noticed anything Corrin does in Fates that was adapted to Smash Bros., Like taunts or some moves?

Please, if your answer will contain spoilers, make it recognizable or don't even post! Thanks

 

[OceloT42]

Switching topics, has anyone of you played FE Fates yet? And do you think it's as good as Awakening?
And, most importantly, to stay at the topic of the thread, have you noticed anything Corrin does in Fates that was adapted to Smash Bros., Like taunts or some moves?

Please, if your answer will contain spoilers, make it recognizable or don't even post! Thanks

I'd really like to know this to buy I can help out slightly
Neutral b is an attack from Fates, but the original doesn't have the bite.
Dragon lunge and ascent and counter surge take inspiration from his dragon form but I don't they're in the original game.
All his taunts are from in game(battle finish pose etc)
that's all I guess.
oh and his original voice actor is in too.

 

[OceloT42]

I picked Marth so that I could main Corrin and practice tipping and spacing
Now I'm maining both, because Marth is just so graceful and FABULOUS

 

[alguidrag]

Switching topics, has anyone of you played FE Fates yet? And do you think it's as good as Awakening?
And, most importantly, to stay at the topic of the thread, have you noticed anything Corrin does in Fates that was adapted to Smash Bros., Like taunts or some moves?

Please, if your answer will contain spoilers, make it recognizable or don't even post! Thanks

First i think the untiped F-smash would be similar power do lucina's and tipped for marth

Second o think fates a amazing game (by the videos at least)

 

[LordShade67]

The throws I see the down as a read throw (the combo that you will need to read your oponent first not just YAY TRUE COMBO I GONNA SPAM THIS FOREVER)the up as a kill throw and maybe his back throw can surprise me and have the same knockback as robin's

For DThrow, I dunno. It looks like you MAY have enough time to do an aerial to true combo afterwards, since Dark Pit's still in hit animation after Corrin reverts. Wishful thinking since obviously we don't know how much hitstun it has(Ike's DThrow has loads of it compared to Roy's. Which is why unlike Roy's, Ike's has the potential to true combo better.), but hey. We'll just have to see February.

 

[OceloT42]

dammit Feb come faster

 

[Spark31]

Ftilt laggy? Looks like corrin can move after his swing the blade, so all laggy would be the animation itself (because would be strange to he move away when he is swing the sword right?)

The Fair i'm seeing more like a fusion of marth and cloud, both give me the same impression (his and cloud's)

Dair could be really good if he had a disjoint to catch in surprise some oponents

Dragon lunge seems pretty fast to me (but maybe not for players that play a lot with "flash" characters like sonic) a safe aprouxe because even if the oponent shield/roll you can still go away/chase

The throws I see the down as a read throw (the combo that you will need to read your oponent first not just YAY TRUE COMBO I GONNA SPAM THIS FOREVER)the up as a kill throw and maybe his back throw can surprise me and have the same knockback as robin's

I really don't see what you have against true throw combos. Like, at all. They take at least a certain amount of skill to learn the percents for, and grab hitboxes are usually pretty small unless they're tethers, on which case they're really laggy. Read combos are just inconsistent damage output.

 

[alguidrag]

I really don't see what you have against true throw combos. Like, at all. They take at least a certain amount of skill to learn the percents for, and grab hitboxes are usually pretty small unless they're tethers, on which case they're really laggy. Read combos are just inconsistent damage output.

Personaly i dont have much against them, just trying to see in a good way if down trhow is not a true

 

[LancerStaff]

For DThrow, I dunno. It looks like you MAY have enough time to do an aerial to true combo afterwards, since Dark Pit's still in hit animation after Corrin reverts. Wishful thinking since obviously we don't know how much hitstun it has(Ike's DThrow has loads of it compared to Roy's. Which is why unlike Roy's, Ike's has the potential to true combo better.), but hey. We'll just have to see February.

There's a mechanic that allows you to airdodge out of hitstun... Basically the last X% of hitstun can be cancelled with an airdodge. (Don't remember the number...) So we end up with situations where CPUs don't airdodge out of hitstun and makes things that definitely aren't true look like it. (Easy example would be Pit's Dthrow. CPUs make it look like Dthrow > double jump > Uair is a kill combo when in reality it isn't.)

Hitstun is directly related to knockback, meaning that there's really no such thing as a high hitstun move. (ZSS's stun moves are slightly different and not really relevant here since Corrin's throws aren't projectiles.) Wether or not a throw combos is dependent on how far the opponent is launched (so they're not launched too far) and how quickly a character can act compared to when the opponent is launched. Ike can act fast and thus can combo for a while, and Zard, DK and Bowser's throw buffs were mostly FAF changes. Roy's doesn't launch far but then his feet are glued to the ground so long he can't get much. Dthrow > Blazer only works as well as it does because there's no jumpsquat frames like an aerial would have to sit through. So if Corrin can't act fast out of a throw, it's not going to be a good combo starter. Simple as that.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Forward smash would honestly be more useful if the sour spot is stronger than Marth's. As great as the tipper is with Marth, Corrin's F smash has so much potential for punishing rolls and covering ledge options.

 

[Zult]

Mac was the biggest loser, remember? The only conceivable reason they'd nerf such a character is because the people actually doing things right were winning a lot. Even his best players weren't winning 1v1s... Mac was definitely way overtuned for FFAs though. Lived waaay too long for the kills he got.

Ike I brought up because somebody else claimed there hasn't been any changes that'd effect FFAs when that's clearly not true. Weren't you agreeing with me on that point previously?

You really think Sakurai would go out and say something that'd **** off the part of the fanbase that hated him already? I mean, come on now, they're trying to mend bridges by supporting various tournaments. He said a month later to go off and play a more competitive game if SSB4 didn't suit you... Basically saying that he's not going to bend the whole game for a minority. Wether he's talking about mechanics or balance is up for interpretation.

And that's all mostly kill power buffs and nerfs. Diddy was broke in FFAs too, and saying Dorf is the FFA god is as unintelligent a claim as saying Roy's a high tier. Most of the changes that actually mattered had significant effects in FFA performance, whereas many of the other big ones were inserted in ways specifically as to not alter FFAs such as the heavies' hoo haas tied to horrendously slow throws. Heck, Dorf just got a pretty big buff that literally only matters in FFAs unless you count abusing patch unawareness.

Main reason I'm posting this here:
Unless you're attempting to disprove my ideas about Corrin I don't see why it's so insane to think this. Nobody really tried calling me out before this, but instead only asked for an explanation... Now here I am being attacked for said explanation, which you've heard already and didn't say much of anything about. I'm not entirely sure why you're perpetuating the conversation.

So, can we resume our previous discussion? At the very least you could take it somewhere else.

I'm pretty sure it's more than Sakurai making all these detailed changes lol. And why are we talking about FFA for 3pages. You do know casuals to 1v1s too? And I don't know about the casual players to competetive players ratio on sales of DLC, but I'm pretty confident that it's the competitive/serious players downloading all these DLC characters day 1. So it wouldn't be so far fetched to say they make the DLC characters for the hardcore audience.

Here is a quote from Trela

I'm with ya man. You're not alone.

I believe Sakurai created Ryu with a purpose, and that purpose is us, the competitive players. A character who was given "special development time", a character who not a lot of people even truly wanted in this game compared to many other options, but because we wanted characters who could compete under our specific way of playing Smash, he was given to us, a character who's entire meta centers on combos and strings mixed with special inputs that lead to shockingly early KOs.......Ryu was MADE to compete.

I know a lot of players who have said that they don't agree with Sakurai's decisions on how he makes Smash 4, or how they don't like how he thinks that we are all wasting our time playing in tournaments.......but when you see what Ryu can do in this game.......there's just much more to it.

If I were to recommend a character to play in tournaments to anyone, it would be Ryu. His meta is developing fast, and more Ryus are showing up in noteworthy tournament results. All of his match-ups are manageable. Do not be ashamed to switch from Jiggs to Ryu, Mr. Box.

I'll make a vid of all this one day. A lot of people are missing out on what Ryu can teach you as a Smash player. I can assure you that you will probably never look back on your lowered tiered character once you KO someone with a frame 2 Dtilt into a guaranteed Shoryuken as early as 50%, which by the way, is like four hits previously to get them to that percent.

I wanna keep going but I can't right now LOL

Anyways, I don't understand why you think a characters that rely on spacing automatically makes them defensive. You can space and still be aggressive.


As for a completely different topic. I hope Corrin's jab 1,2 is good. Every character with both jab finishers and multi hit jabs (like the Pits or Greninja) have really good jab 1,2s into something else. Although you don't need both to have a good jab 1,2, but every character that does have both has a good jab 1,2. So if Corrin's jab ends up being really fast like everyone is saying then I could see Jab>Jab>Dtilt>Utilt>Uair(?) being possible. Just a theory. You could probably add some other things in there and make some frame traps.

There's a mechanic that allows you to airdodge out of hitstun... Basically the last X% of hitstun can be cancelled with an airdodge. (Don't remember the number...) So we end up with situations where CPUs don't airdodge out of hitstun and makes things that definitely aren't true look like it. (Easy example would be Pit's Dthrow. CPUs make it look like Dthrow > double jump > Uair is a kill combo when in reality it isn't.)

Hitstun is directly related to knockback, meaning that there's really no such thing as a high hitstun move. (ZSS's stun moves are slightly different and not really relevant here since Corrin's throws aren't projectiles.) Wether or not a throw combos is dependent on how far the opponent is launched (so they're not launched too far) and how quickly a character can act compared to when the opponent is launched. Ike can act fast and thus can combo for a while, and Zard, DK and Bowser's throw buffs were mostly FAF changes. Roy's doesn't launch far but then his feet are glued to the ground so long he can't get much. Dthrow > Blazer only works as well as it does because there's no jumpsquat frames like an aerial would have to sit through. So if Corrin can't act fast out of a throw, it's not going to be a good combo starter. Simple as that.

The fact that Corrin changes into a Dragon makes me believe there will be a lot of end lag, which is why I'm not that optimistic about a combo throw, but still hope for one. The lag also looks bad on Fthrow and Bthrow. But at the same time, if I'm going by logic, a move like that should kill, right? He changes into a dragon after all. So I'm more confident in a kill throw being a possibility. Having both would be crazy. Atleast Corrin's Upthrow and Dthrow might be crazy in doubles if the throw hits all around him.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

As with what we saw with Cloud, good moveset would result in bad recovery for Corrin. Or possible even his moves would be very weak or not combo viable. Corrin might have that terrible downside that would just ruin him in the metagame.

#MakeCorrinAWESOME

 

[Planty]

As with what we saw with Cloud, good moveset would result in bad recovery for Corrin. Or possible even his moves would be very weak or not combo viable. Corrin might have that terrible downside that would just ruin him in the metagame.

Nah. Corrin's recovery looks really solid. Combo game is nice too off of good pokes like D-tilt. Moveset overall is pretty amazing when viewed in a vacuum. They have great range and seemingly good frame data.

I think she'll just have a bad throw game and will struggle killing (unless she could get an edgeguard, which she appears to be good at.) Oh and terrible mobility too (but honestly I don't think that it'll matter too much just because Corrin can control space. Olimar or Villager, for example, have horrendous mobility, but control space which makes their neutral good)

 

[Pedker]

Guys don't fight,just support Kamui.
Or worship Arceus.
On a more serious note, does anyone feel that landing tipped fsmash will be like Marth's,with early kills? I think it should be.

I don't believe it will be so. I feel like the main balance point of having a ridiculously long F-smash will be to have the launch power less than the average smash attack.

 

[alguidrag]

Or workship kamui

 

[Athrel]

I'm still worried about whether F-special will be a command grab or not. It seems like it should be mechanically, but aesthetically, it looks like something that a shield would be able to block. The only evidence I can see that supports it being one is at around 2:33 in the gameplay video where you can hear the sound of Corrin's arm hitting the ground before you hear the sound of mario getting pinned in place which leads me to believe that the move works by having the tip be a hitbox and when the tip registers as touching the ground when the arm is fully extended, the rest of the arm becomes a grab hitbox, but that's all just a guess. I don't see much use for the move if it isn't a command grab.

 

[Zult]

I'm still worried about whether F-special will be a command grab or not. It seems like it should be mechanically, but aesthetically, it looks like something that a shield would be able to block. The only evidence I can see that supports it being one is at around 2:33 in the gameplay video where you can hear the sound of Corrin's arm hitting the ground before you hear the sound of mario getting pinned in place which leads me to believe that the move works by having the tip be a hitbox and when the tip registers as touching the ground when the arm is fully extended, the rest of the arm becomes a grab hitbox, but that's all just a guess. I don't see much use for the move if it isn't a command grab.

I feel like they would have emphasized if it was a command grab or not. But who knows. The guy keeps saying "pin" and not grab or hit.

 

[Athrel]

I feel like they would have emphasized if it was a command grab or not. But who knows. The guy keeps saying "pin" and not grab or hit.

Maybe, but I feel like pin implies grab and neither nosferatu nor confusion (yeah it was already in melee, but still) were shown as being command grabs.

 

[Zult]

Maybe, but I feel like pin implies grab and neither nosferatu nor confusion (yeah it was already in melee, but still) were shown as being command grabs.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's a command grab, but I think I'm gonna keep my expectations low and assume it isn't a command grab. Seems to good to be true, but a possibility. It would be really good.

 

[Spark31]

Maybe, but I feel like pin implies grab and neither nosferatu nor confusion (yeah it was already in melee, but still) were shown as being command grabs.

Gotta agree with Zult here. I really don't think it will be a command grab. Also, I can totally see the application for the move. You could use it to recover (if it sticks in walls) you can use it to cover options, as the options you can do out of pin aren't just limitted to if you hit someone. I can see it covering roll options nicely, at least from the air. We have f-smash for ground punishes. Also, even if it's not a command grab it'll be stupidly good in teams. Imagine Pin -> Focus punch -> Pin -> Focus punch -> Pin -> Shoryuken. I honestly don't even think it'd be that difficult.

 

[Delzethin]

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's a command grab, but I think I'm gonna keep my expectations low and assume it isn't a command grab. Seems to good to be true, but a possibility. It would be really good.

Hm...does Ryu's Focus Attack hit through shields? That'd probably be our best point of reference.

 

[LordShade67]

Hm...does Ryu's Focus Attack hit through shields? That'd probably be our best point of reference.

Only fully charged. However, the weaker versions do a crapton of shield damage.

 

[False Sense]

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's a command grab, but I think I'm gonna keep my expectations low and assume it isn't a command grab. Seems to good to be true, but a possibility. It would be really good.

You know, I do have to wonder...

Assuming Dragon Lunge isn't a command grab, what happens if you pin the ground an opponent is standing on while they shield? Do you still pin the ground? If so, can the opponent just walk out of it once they drop their shield?

And speaking of Dragon Lunge, what happens when you hit an opponent with it without pinning any surface? I assume it would just work like an ordinary attack, but how potent will that attack be?

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

You know, I do have to wonder...

Assuming Dragon Lunge isn't a command grab, what happens if you pin the ground an opponent is standing on while they shield? Do you still pin the ground? If so, can the opponent just walk out of it once they drop their shield?

And speaking of Dragon Lunge, what happens when you hit an opponent with it without pinning any surface? I assume it would just work like an ordinary attack, but how potent will that attack be?

Probably spikes at tip in air.

Also it would be better if it wasn't a C-grab because it could have good shield damage and still pin the ground and hang above them to bait OOS options.

 

[Centicerise]

Switching topics, has anyone of you played FE Fates yet? And do you think it's as good as Awakening?
And, most importantly, to stay at the topic of the thread, have you noticed anything Corrin does in Fates that was adapted to Smash Bros., Like taunts or some moves?

Please, if your answer will contain spoilers, make it recognizable or don't even post! Thanks

I liked fates better than awakening.

A good amount of the iconic moves in corrin's smash moveset are from triggering the skill dragon fang. Though dragon fang has a static animation on a normal proc, it has flashy variants if triggered in conjunction with a critical hit. E.g. side b, dragon lunge can be seen in this video:

https://youtu.be/wgpp257en9A?t=18s

It's only when kamui/kanna is in their original darkblood/white blood class line that the dragon fang animations occur. Most people don't know that a skill + crit changes the animation because frankly it's quite rare.

 

[OceloT42]

Just a thought but do you think the very tip of dragon lunge could meteor smash like ryu's dair?
Just thinking but i highly doubt it

 

[meowmere]

Just a thought but do you think the very tip of dragon lunge could meteor smash like ryu's dair?
Just thinking but i highly doubt it

To me it seems like the tip of the lance spikes opponents in the air, but only at high percents. It seems easy to hit, but in reality it's probably gonna be quite difficult (as with most spikes).

 

[Zult]

Good lord. Look how quick and lagless this down tilt is. And look how it's comboing Luigi who is a floaty. Imagine heavies/fastfallers. Down tilt to grab might be legit. Also, down tilt into charged fsmash? If they air dodge or throw out a move after the down tilt then the hit box in front of you while chaging fsmash will hit them. If this is a thing, then most people will learn to jump after down tilt at high percents and knowing that you can take advantage. Oh, but also, if they don't air dodge then they run this risk of getting comboed from dtilt since jump is slower than air dodge out of hitsun. These are just theories, but still. Look how quick that down tilt is. I knew it was quick, but not that quick lol. Uptilt seems decent (not sure if that follow up in the video after utilt is true though) and ftilt just looks like a move for spacing only, I think. Look how Luigi went no where from ftilt. It makes me believe it could be a combo starter, but then I see Luigi have basically no hitstun. Maybe at high percents it can be able to combo?

 

[OceloT42]

Yeah down tilt looks like the king of combo starters
Still the trailer tho,so I haven't gotten my hopes up

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm pretty sure it's more than Sakurai making all these detailed changes lol. And why are we talking about FFA for 3pages. You do know casuals to 1v1s too? And I don't know about the casual players to competetive players ratio on sales of DLC, but I'm pretty confident that it's the competitive/serious players downloading all these DLC characters day 1. So it wouldn't be so far fetched to say they make the DLC characters for the hardcore audience.

Here is a quote from Trela

Anyways, I don't understand why you think a characters that rely on spacing automatically makes them defensive. You can space and still be aggressive.


As for a completely different topic. I hope Corrin's jab 1,2 is good. Every character with both jab finishers and multi hit jabs (like the Pits or Greninja) have really good jab 1,2s into something else. Although you don't need both to have a good jab 1,2, but every character that does have both has a good jab 1,2. So if Corrin's jab ends up being really fast like everyone is saying then I could see Jab>Jab>Dtilt>Utilt>Uair(?) being possible. Just a theory. You could probably add some other things in there and make some frame traps.




The fact that Corrin changes into a Dragon makes me believe there will be a lot of end lag, which is why I'm not that optimistic about a combo throw, but still hope for one. The lag also looks bad on Fthrow and Bthrow. But at the same time, if I'm going by logic, a move like that should kill, right? He changes into a dragon after all. So I'm more confident in a kill throw being a possibility. Having both would be crazy. Atleast Corrin's Upthrow and Dthrow might be crazy in doubles if the throw hits all around him.

They do, but they're more likely to choke on Little Mac Fsmash spam and ZSS dash attacks and other easy things before they get to the point that'd matter.

Mewtwo, rebuilt and for a while required both versions to even get was bottom tier for a looong time. Roy, created almost entirely for Melee fans and revamped, is terrible. I agree that Ryu being good in 1v1s isn't a coincidence, being Mr. 1v1 fite me IRL himself. Although just his 1v1 powers aren't enough to compete in FFA environments... His throws being crazy powerful attacks wasn't just thrown in as a joke, yaknow.

I think we've long passed the point where we could say Corrin's not a defensive character. He's at best not particularly fast and has multiple "charge" moves with defensive hitboxes. All his moves have significant range.

Good lord. Look how quick and lagless this down tilt is. And look how it's comboing Luigi who is a floaty. Imagine heavies/fastfallers. Down tilt to grab might be legit. Also, down tilt into charged fsmash? If they air dodge or throw out a move after the down tilt then the hit box in front of you while chaging fsmash will hit them. If this is a thing, then most people will learn to jump after down tilt at high percents and knowing that you can take advantage. Oh, but also, if they don't air dodge then they run this risk of getting comboed from dtilt since jump is slower than air dodge out of hitsun. These are just theories, but still. Look how quick that down tilt is. I knew it was quick, but not that quick lol. Uptilt seems decent (not sure if that follow up in the video after utilt is true though) and ftilt just looks like a move for spacing only, I think. Look how Luigi went no where from ftilt. It makes me believe it could be a combo starter, but then I see Luigi have basically no hitstun. Maybe at high percents it can be able to combo?

Dtilt seems rather lacking in the hitstun department... Luigi fell way too far for that to be true on him. The move seems fast at first, but note that the video is much faster then normal gameplay. None of that looks true or particularly fast, to be honest.

And on Fsmash... The charging hitbox isn't necessarily frame 1. DDD's Fsmash is the most apparent example of not charging on like f3 or whatever it usually is. Especially if the charging hitbox links into the main attack of Fsmash, I don't see the hitbox coming out before frame 10.