Mosque near Ground Zero

[professor mgw]

~After what happened on 9/11, do you think a mosque should be built there?

Discuss.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Can you provide links to the story? (I know most of us know already just saying it would be nice that is all.)

I truly see no problem with it but I really do not have much to say beyond that.

Sorry if this post is not to debate hall level.

 

[Dre89]

Even if they are entitled to put it there, doesn't it seem a bit silly to put one here, consideirng all the hate, and possibly violence they're going to get?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Even if they are entitled to put it there, doesn't it seem a bit silly to put one here, consideirng all the hate, and possibly violence they're going to get?

I suppose it is illogical to put one their but haters are going to hate. For example it is illogical to be black in the south of north america in the Jim crow era. Regardless you do have a very good point there unlike my example they can avoid the trouble but I really do not know what to think.....

 

[professor mgw]

Even if they are entitled to put it there, doesn't it seem a bit silly to put one here, consideirng all the hate, and possibly violence they're going to get?

~I feel the same way, even on the news there was a little ruckus between the people of islam and the locals. 9/11 Caused much pain for A LOT of people, the fact that they think they can build a place of worship and expect nothing to go wrong is absurd.

Sorry, I'm on my phone right now, I won't be able to provide a link to the story at the moment:/

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

~I feel the same way, even on the news there was a little ruckus between the people of islam and the locals. 9/11 Caused much pain for A LOT of people, the fact that they think they can build a place of worship and expect nothing to go wrong is absurd.

I think it should be the local Islams choice. They should have every right to put a church where they wish to (With in legal limits of course.) Now are they being smart and doing the logical thing, not really (for reasons pointed out already)

Spoiler

(Should they build one there I do not know, should they have the right to build one there yes)

.The local people need to realized that we where attacked by extremist, not Islam. I know why they think the way they do, but to hate a complete group of people for what a small fraction of the people is more or less a religious equivalent of racism (What would that be called I do not know the word for that?). Now why they think the way they do is perfectly understandable, but that does not make it any less wrong.

I think we should clear up the argument and define it.

Argument one: Do they have the right to do so?

My answer: Yes.

Argument two: Is it the smart thing to do?

My answer: No.

Argument three: Should they do it?

My answer: I do not know.

 

[abhishekh]

Might help preach "tolerance" of Islam, especially since the event caused so much hate.

Kinda makes sense if you look at it like that.

 

[Aesir]

What people seem to fail to realize is a mosque appears 4 blocks away from ground zero. Yet no one cared.

I'm not getting the hatred at all really, unless you want to group all Muslims together as al qaeda operatives. In which case I can call all Christians West Borough Baptist church attendee's

 

[Dre89]

No one here hates the Muslims.

You don't have to say 'well then we can say all Christians are X', because yes, everyone gets that, everyone here knows that the strain of logic advocating hate of Islam is flawed.

What we're discussing whether it is an intelligent move on the Muslim's behalf to expose themselves to such hostiliy in this manner, but everyone here knows the hostility they will get is unjustified.

 

[Aesir]

^ Why don't we go ask African Americans why they did the things they did during the civil rights movement despite all the hatred felt toward them.

I realize that's an extreme example, but frankly to many Americans blame Islam rather than the real culprits of the crime. Far to often Muslim Americans are discriminated against and bullied around because they happen to have a similar religion to the extremist who tried to get even with America.

 

[professor mgw]

~That's the problem though, it's TOO similar, so the people who were affected by 9/11 aren't going to group the extremists and the people of islam differently, they look simliar, dress similar, behave (i certain ways) similar, and share alot of common ground for religon.

 

[Aesir]

^ Really how are they Too similar? You realize Al-quada has as much to do with Islam as the Christian right has to do with Christianity right? Al-quada is a political group comprised of MANY denominations of Islam, their religious doctrine is a joke, muslim scholars will attest to that, it's all political pragmatism and how much their willing to look the other way to further their "cause."

By calling American Muslims TOO similar to Al-Quada operatives shows how little you really know about the nature of the situation. Not really surprised most Americans probably couldn't tell the difference between a Muslim or a Hindu.

 

[Dre89]

He's not saying that they are similar, just that they'll appear similar to the ignorant Americans.

 

[professor mgw]

He's not saying that they are similar, just that they'll appear similar to the ignorant Americans.

Thank you. That's exactly why I said they LOOK and DRESS similar and things of the sort, you have to understand that not everybody is going to try and treat them fairly, people do not to when they are hurt inside, that's just how it goes unfortunately. Sorry if I word something wrong~

 

[BOB SAGET!]

I don't think you should be making excuses for racism. It's plain ignorance to blame a religon for a terrible crime because the organization shares (I'm not sure if I can even say shares, their views are completely different then most muslims) the same "religon."

There are christians who have done terrible crimes, should we blame the religon too?

 

[professor mgw]

I don't think you should be making excuses for racism. It's plain ignorance to blame a religon for a terrible crime because the organization shares (I'm not sure if I can even say shares, their views are completely different then most muslims) the same "religon."

There are christians who have done terrible crimes, should we blame the religon too?

Who said I'm making excuses? I'm simply explaining how a person who was effected would feel.

 

[Dre89]

Everyone knows the religion isn't at fault.

What he's saying is that it is a bad idea, because the ignorant Americans who can't distinguish between a true Muslim and a terroist will give them a hard time.

He never said the religion is at fault.

 

[Aesir]

And I'm saying go tell that to African Americans in the 1960's. Equality and the struggle to over come racism isn't easy. If ever group neglected to do something because of the possible "hard time" they might experience then no progress would ever be achieved.

 

[Deleted member]

What he's saying is that it is a bad idea, because the ignorant Americans who can't distinguish between a true Muslim and a terroist will give them a hard time.

Isn't that their choice?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

And I'm saying go tell that to African Americans in the 1960's. Equality and the struggle to over come racism isn't easy. If ever group neglected to do something because of the possible "hard time" they might experience then no progress would ever be achieved.

This is why I can not form a solid opinion on this subject. On one hand I agree with this point of view. On the other hand I do not like the idea of innocent people being put in danger or people getting needlessly hurt. I do agree with you Aesir but is it worth the potential cost?

 

[1048576]

I think it would be good for the mosque to be built there, for people to eventually see that choice of religion has no correlation with quality of character (if you choose any, you suck ). Also, it would placate the fuel that the actual terrorists are no doubt using to recruit new members.

 

[El Nino]

When you step into a fight, you're going to get hurt.

But is it always better to not fight?

What's worse than meeting ignorance and prejudice face to face?

Allowing public policy to be guided by concepts you acknowledge to be false.

 

[Bookworm]

Looking at this thread, perhaps one thing that may have been overlooked is that even though the Muslims are not at fault, their decision to build the mosque there may be considered disrespectful in light of 9 11.


Suppose it was passed that abortion was made legal. Would it be considered disrespectful to erect an abortion clinic next to the Vatican, or some other Christian community?

The point is here is that whilst the Muslims are not terroists, perhaps there is still a consideration for the pain that such a mosque will cause .

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

This country was founded of Freedom of Religion, If we were to take that away in this instance, it could cause some high strung chaos.

Then again, The Mosque could be used as a terrorist like base rather then a Mosque... Since Christians and such wouldn't be allowed inside...

If I offended any Muslims, please forgive me, It wasn't ment to sound hateful, but any Extreemists could take over the Mosque.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Looking at this thread, perhaps one thing that may have been overlooked is that even though the Muslims are not at fault, their decision to build the mosque there may be considered disrespectful in light of 9 11.


Suppose it was passed that abortion was made legal. Would it be considered disrespectful to erect an abortion clinic next to the Vatican, or some other Christian community?

The point is here is that whilst the Muslims are not terroists, perhaps there is still a consideration for the pain that such a mosque will cause .

That made absolutely no sense. How is a mosque disrespectful?

@ second paragraph

How would that be disrespectful?

 

[El Nino]

Looking at this thread, perhaps one thing that may have been overlooked is that even though the Muslims are not at fault, their decision to build the mosque there may be considered disrespectful in light of 9 11..

Consider if you had an adopted child who was abused by his mother, and now he fears all women. Perhaps it would make sense to minimize his contact with women in the beginning, but would it be wise to keep him away from 50% of the human population for the rest of his life? Or do you think it would benefit him to slowly be reacquainted with positive female influences so that he can hopefully overcome his trauma, rather than grow up with a permanent irrational hatred of women in general?

 

[1048576]

This country was founded of Freedom of Religion, If we were to take that away in this instance, it could cause some high strung chaos.

Then again, The Church could be used as a KKK like base rather then a Church... Since homosexuals and such wouldn't be allowed inside...

If I offended any Christians, please forgive me, It wasn't ment to sound hateful, but any Extreemists could take over the Church.

You and I completely agree, sir.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Looking at this thread, perhaps one thing that may have been overlooked is that even though the Muslims are not at fault, their decision to build the mosque there may be considered disrespectful in light of 9 11.


Suppose it was passed that abortion was made legal. Would it be considered disrespectful to erect an abortion clinic next to the Vatican, or some other Christian community?

The point is here is that whilst the Muslims are not terroists, perhaps there is still a consideration for the pain that such a mosque will cause .

But the issue here is not the mosque. It never was. The issue is the people who are stupid enough to be either fooled by the mainstream media into believing outright lies or caught up in the demagoguery or are flat-out islamophobic.

There is NO argument against the mosque that does not base in "people in america are ****ing ********". And when we bow down to the ignorant people, majority or not, then we are failing ourselves as a country.

Then again, The Mosque could be used as a terrorist like base rather then a Mosque... Since Christians and such wouldn't be allowed inside...

If I offended any Muslims, please forgive me, It wasn't ment to sound hateful, but any Extreemists could take over the Mosque.

There's so much wrong with this it's not even funny.

First of all, it's a community center open to all religions. There is no rule against christians being in there, it's just not the most common thing in the world-like getting muslims in a church. Would you say that christians shouldn't build a church in europe because they might use it to start the inquisition again?

Second of all, you are assuming that it would be frequented by terrorists, and that enough muslims are terrorists for that to be the case. This is disgustingly islamophobic and almost certain to offend someone. Like this sentence: I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you, but you're a ****ing idiot.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

You and I completely agree, sir.

If by KKK you mean the Klu klux Klan, they were against colored people.

Homosexual people are still allowed in churches.

Pointing out some flaws in your argument.

@TOS

You are thinking EXACTLY the way the terrorist want you to think. Does every Muslim have a bomb strapped to their back?

And besides, I'm pretty sure chunches around the world are planning to take down middle eastern countries.

 

[1048576]

Oh ffs

http://racialkiller.tripod.com/id17.html

Did you really think the KKK was okay with the gay?

And CHRISTIANS ARE ALLOWED IN MOSQUES. They'd just feel uncomfortable. The analogy fits perfectly.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

@TOS

You are thinking EXACTLY the way the terrorist want you to think. Does every Muslim have a bomb strapped to their back?

And besides, I'm pretty sure chunches around the world are planning to take down middle eastern countries.

No, not what I 100% ment.

It wasn't ment to sound hateful, but any Extreemists could take over the Mosque.

Not every Muslim is a terrorist, i'm not thinking that. I AM, however, thinking defensively. With a Mosque in our land, Some Muslim Extreemists can easily take over it and make it a small base. Probably unlikely, but still a possibility.

And I say where Christians aren't allowed inside, Technically, that's NOT true. The Bible doesn't say you can't go in a Mosque, but you know how people twist things around now adays. I'm sure Christians would think it's a sin to enter a Mosque.

 

[1048576]

Muslim:Al Queda::Christian:KKK

Mosques are just as legit as churches. You shouldn't build either of them, but if you allow one, you should allow the other.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Muslim:Al Queda::Christian:KKK

Mosques are just as legit as churches. You shouldn't build either of them, but if you allow one, you should allow the other.

Hence, Freedom of Religion.

 

[professor mgw]

Hence, Freedom of Religion.

~Correct, F.O.R. is important, and we know that it's legal for the muslims to build their mosque there, unfortunately there are just some americans who will always belive that the muslims have strong ties with the extremists and will therefore treat them as such, but of course not as harsh.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

~Correct, F.O.R. is important, and we know that it's legal for the muslims to build their mosque there, unfortunately there are just some americans who will always belive that the muslims have strong ties with the extremists and will therefore treat them as such, but of course not as harsh.

This x100. I have no true problem with Muslims, or the fact that they want a Mosque near Ground Zero, it is just the fact that the extremists might do something huge. I'm just thinking cautiously.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

This x100. I have no true problem with Muslims, or the fact that they want a Mosque near Ground Zero, it is just the fact that the extremists might do something huge. I'm just thinking cautiously.

No no no!

That's not right.

There is nothing that says more than "We give up!" than not letting this mosque be built.

The 9/11 Hijackers knew they couldn't destroy all of America by killing everyone. Rather, if you scare America sh**less into irrational thinking, then we are on the same level as they are. While we may have let this happen some (torturing sticks out), now is a good time to restore the trust we have in the 1st Amendment.

EE and Succum have stated this more eloquently than I on the DH version of this, so be sure to peruse that for more.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

No no no!

That's not right.

There is nothing that says more than "We give up!" than not letting this mosque be built.

The 9/11 Hijackers knew they couldn't destroy all of America by killing everyone. Rather, if you scare America sh**less into irrational thinking, then we are on the same level as they are. While we may have let this happen some (torturing sticks out), now is a good time to restore the trust we have in the 1st Amendment.

EE and Succum have stated this more eloquently than I on the DH version of this, so be sure to peruse that for more.

My post had nothing to do with us "giving up". I don't know where your idea here came from.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

My post had nothing to do with us "giving up". I don't know where your idea here came from.

When we remove our rights, our freedoms; when we alienate the moderate muslims and drive them away regardless of the moderate nature of their belief; when we are so scared of terrorists that we will do anything to appease a ****less public, the terrorists have won.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/30/taliban-using-mosque-controversy-to-recruit.html

 

[GoldShadow]

Not every Muslim is a terrorist, i'm not thinking that. I AM, however, thinking defensively. With a Mosque in our land, Some Muslim Extreemists can easily take over it and make it a small base. Probably unlikely, but still a possibility.

And I say where Christians aren't allowed inside, Technically, that's NOT true. The Bible doesn't say you can't go in a Mosque, but you know how people twist things around now adays. I'm sure Christians would think it's a sin to enter a Mosque.

"Thinking defensively"? What does that mean? "With a mosque in our land"? As if there aren't already thousands of mosques in America? How is this mosque any different from the numerous others? "Some muslim extremists can easily take over" and "make it a small base"? If you're going to debate something, you can't just throw every one of your thoughts out there. You should read up on the topic, do some research, and come up with a well-reasoned argument. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas from.

Moreover, why would Christians consider it a sin to enter a mosque? Why wouldn't Christians be allowed in a mosque? Why did you even bring up Christians, as if all US law enforcement and government personnel and potential whistle-blowers are Christian? What about Hindus, Jews, atheists, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc.?

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

"Thinking defensively"? What does that mean? "With a mosque in our land"? As if there aren't already thousands of mosques in America? How is this mosque any different from the numerous others? "Some muslim extremists can easily take over" and "make it a small base"? If you're going to debate something, you can't just throw every one of your thoughts out there. You should read up on the topic, do some research, and come up with a well-reasoned argument. Frankly, I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas from.

Moreover, why would Christians consider it a sin to enter a mosque? Why wouldn't Christians be allowed in a mosque? Why did you even bring up Christians, as if all US law enforcement and government personnel and potential whistle-blowers are Christian? What about Hindus, Jews, atheists, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc.?

When I say thinking defensivley, I mean, I'm thinking what would be best to defend the Country. You never know when the next huge threat could take place. And i didn't say EVERY Christian would think of it as a sin, but some might. Some Christians are more strict then others, they MIGHT think that going into a house of worship that is not there own is a sin.