Monty Python's Flying Mafia - SCUM VICTORY, Vult/Doop win the game!

[Dooplissity]

Town read.

Because?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because?

I've liked your content even at parts where I disagree with it.

You are in the Fand/Vult area of I want you to stay around.

 

[Dooplissity]

Downgrading Ryu from Town to slight town lean. I asked him about me to see if I was accidentally left out or intentionally omitted for some reason. Replying "town read" is the easiest way to get me off his back, (because I would press him on a null read) and also avoids giving solid reasoning. When pressed, "I've liked your content even at parts where I disagree with it." is super vague and allows him to go back and pick and choose what he agrees or doesn't agree with based on what's convenient at the time, rather than locking himself into anything concrete.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Downgrading Ryu from Town to slight town lean. I asked him about me to see if I was accidentally left out or intentionally omitted for some reason. Replying "town read" is the easiest way to get me off his back, (because I would press him on a null read) and also avoids giving solid reasoning. When pressed, "I've liked your content even at parts where I disagree with it." is super vague and allows him to go back and pick and choose what he agrees or doesn't agree with based on what's convenient at the time, rather than locking himself into anything concrete.

I didn't fully agree with your push on Ran is what I was referring to from way earlier if you want something concrete. A lot of it echos what Gheb said at one point which I think he doesn't really stand by anymore based on his more recent post talking about Ran but it's something I still agree with.

Ran's behavior this game has a lot of good and bad with it, and many points where I can see where someone would come from disliking his slot like when you voted him way earlier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate how you guys have to make everything so complicated >_<

Ranmaru's #91 sums up why Kouse is scum pretty accurately and concisely. Especially the way he parroted Defene's reasoning on why he finds Vult to be suspicious is noteworthy because he literally parrots the usage of the word 'blackmailing' - a word that I find very unfitting to describe what Vult's been doing. It's a massive parrot to just re-use such a specific word in this fashion and it reeks very opportunistic ... to me it seems like he couldn't find a better answer as to why he'd be suspicious of Vult and decided to just use whatever happened to be easily avilable.

I'm not sure why Kouse choose to selectively interpret Ran's play as dubious via him "trying to push other people into the spotlight". Specifically the accusation that he just "really wants other people to look scummy" is pretty hefty and 100% enough a reason to push for his lynch. If that's what Kouse actually thinks about Ran then I have no clue why Kouse was satisifed doing nothing and just keeping his vote on Vult. To me it seems Kouse was just happy to have the discussion move somewhere else and then dip - he hasn't posted since then I believe even though he's been on yesterday according to his profile and he ignored Ryu's very legitimate question in #87.

That's honestly good enough to justify a lynch at this point. Kouse has made himself pretty suspicious without any pressure on him and he has been fairly inactive overall. He interacted with Ran and Ryu and other people [Fanny, myself] have taken stances on him over the course of the Day as well. We should lynch the slot imo.

Are you suggesting a slot with their first game not doing many of the things you are saying here.

I agree the slot has done poor things and I'm not gonna give him a free pass either, but a lot of it really isn't as bad when you remember. "Oh right it's his first game"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not just leaving, it's doing what he did and then leaving during questioning. I'm comparing Kouse's reaction to my own in my first big game, where I screwed up pretty bad and it looked like I was backtracking a LOT and constantly changed my story, but then I stuck with it and almost got to endgame (until I got killed off by an Indie). Kouse, on the other hand, ran away from pressure and hasn't come back for most of the phase; that looks pretty scummy to me, considering he also showed that he was paranoid about being in the spotlight by his defensive reaction of "nobody was ever suspicious of me" when nobody implied that he was under pressure.

Anyways, going to get my teeth pulled out of my mouth (and trying to push someone who won't post/respond is like pulling teeth lol). See ya in a few hours?

Holding him to not being here really shouldn't be anyone's focus, rather what he posted. If anyone jumped away and ran away from the game I would say it was your slot when it replaced out when pressured. I find that to be far worse and be a strong scum tell for some Dgamers around here. Especially Soup who tried to use it as a pity tactic as scum for a game.

You and Gheb are treating him like he knew what he was doing in the first place.

 

[Dooplissity]

The clarification is appreciated, but doesn't earn you any points, since it comes after i called you out for possibly wanting to avoid it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The clarification is appreciated, but doesn't earn you any points, since it comes after i called you out for possibly wanting to avoid it.

I'd rather be made clear where I am coming from.

Don't care about town cred.

 

[Fandangox]

I'm at work, I haven't re-read the whole game yet, but first:

Between post #95 and post #104 Fanny tries to discredit Ran's case by questioning the 'parroting'-part of Ran's argument. Given my current position on Kouse I'm very doubtful of Fanny's intentions here. He seems pretty eager to discredit not only Ranmaru's case on Kouse by consistently calling his reasoning weak [without explaining why they're weak either] but Ran's play as a whole by saying he was trying to control the flow of the game as it that were something negative. Fanny uses two weak points himself between those none posts - one is that Ran supposedly is using weak reasoning to push new players [similar as in Kouse's case that I mentioned in the above post, this is a very heavy accusation that you'd normally push a lynch for!], the other is the claim that Ryu's questions make him look like actively hunting for scum - that doesn't seem justify at all. So I think Fandangox should probably explain both things. a) what exactly is wrong with Ran's callout on Kouse's parroting? Why is it weak and why did you have to bring up the fact that Kouse is a new player in order to discredit Ran himself rather than his arguments? b.) where the heck are you getting the idea from that Ryu's been legitimately hunting for scum? I know you said it's a soft read but even soft reads need to have at least some sort of basis.

I definitely think there's a connection between Kouse and Fanny. Kouse made himself look suspicious and Ran pointed out the how and why about it. Then Fanny comes in, discredits Ran and his case based on what I consider poor reasoning and tries to deflect the pressure elsewhere. After that Kouse magically disappears and stops posting as soon as he's off the hook. Ran also pointed out both slots as individually scummy. I'm going to operate under the assumption that they are a scumteam until I see a good rason to think otherwise.

This is all great reasoning Gheb, really. I mean aside if you ignore the fact that I already explained these things. I brought up Kouse being a new player because I thought Ran was preying on a weak player, I thought his "parroting" excuse because I read both defen's and Kouse's post and I just didn't see it. So you know A+ for effort.

Oh wait, there's another tiny problem with your case.

YOU ARE WORKING UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT KOUSE IS SCUM

WHY ARE YOU WORKING UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT A PLAYER IS SCUM, YET VOTE ANOTHER PLAYER ON CONNECTIONS THAT DON'T EXIST?

Everyone ask yourselves this question and you will realize Gheb's case is whack. Think why is he sos ure that Kouse is scum and yet has no explained why and votes someone else for it under connections when there's no flip?

(Hint: is because Kouse is inactive and he'd look back pushing the player that isn't posting)
(Another Hint: he's doing it out of self preservation)

Vote: Gheb

 

[Fandangox]

Kind of interested in previous questions from Fand as to his read of Doop and why he had an issue with someone having a town read on Doop. Fandangox

I explained on my #125, Vult said two negative things about him, yet had him as a town read on his post, and didn't elaborate on why, it was made more confusing because he butchered who he was answering to on his multi quote post.

 

[Fandangox]

That wouldn't be enough to make him instantly change alignment (because Kouse may be scum and thought that would be a legit route to go down vs Ran, not knowing much about forum Mafia), but it would certainly make scum!Ran more plausible in my mind.

What's your take on Ryu vs Ran, how does that affect your reads on both of them?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I feel like town!nabe's version does those things, but scum!nabe doesn't actually have to care about it. Scum!nabe would actually rather not suggest new topics to talk about, because he'd rather let discussion stagnate, then go "I told you so! Look how Town I was!"

That's not a viable scum strategy as you've described it. Scum can coast without actually contributing, but they can't coast and then call attention to that coasting and attempt to take credit for the content of other players. That is to say, assuming that every player plays to win as scum and be even somewhat believable as a cute townie. If you think I'm scum, then you can't think that's my endgame if you've properly thought things through.

If I were scum in Day 1, I'd be turning it on and faking interactions in line with what towns expect of a townie. I'm not too bad at that. Instead, as town in Day 1, I sit and watch people's interactions, and I step in when people aren't asking the questions that I want the answers to. I'm in it to observe people and solve the great puzzle, and 6/8 players are putting in the nudgework to make that happen. Thanks for that. If more people pressure me to act like a townie "should", then I will (as if I were scum) turn it on and fake interactions to appear just "proper townie" enough for people to leave me alone. I'll do it just for you, bae. But not for me.

@Nabe: Full reads list please.

No.

 

[Vult Redux]

i haven't caught up fully because you guys post too much (lookin at you Nabe) but i'm 90% sure I'm on board with a gheb wagon.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

What no, I didn't play that game if I recall correctly, I don't know why you'd equate "last game" to something from 2014.

You played Battle Network (you were the D1 lynch) and it's the "last game" that you and I played together, 2014 or not.

What are your thoughts on Vult?

We have nothing to say to the press on this matter at this time.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

EBWOP: nudge

 

[Fandangox]

You played Battle Network (you were the D1 lynch) and it's the "last game" that you and I played together, 2014 or not.

Yeah I already said I confused you with Rake's shenanigans on Revival of Dgame's mafia.

I don't really remember battle network though, was that the one I was voted off for being just generally polite which came off as me trying to be non-confrontative?

We have nothing to say to the press on this matter at this time.

Thanks Nabe you are the real MVP.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

This comes across as fake, and you get no points for stating this, this late in the game.

What was the purpose of saying this? (Context: Ran to Ryu re: Ran/Kouse)

 

[Dooplissity]

That's not a viable scum strategy as you've described it. Scum can coast without actually contributing, but they can't coast and then call attention to that coasting and attempt to take credit for the content of other players. That is to say, assuming that every player plays to win as scum and be even somewhat believable as a cute townie. If you think I'm scum, then you can't think that's my endgame if you've properly thought things through.

If I were scum in Day 1, I'd be turning it on and faking interactions in line with what towns expect of a townie. I'm not too bad at that. Instead, as town in Day 1, I sit and watch people's interactions, and I step in when people aren't asking the questions that I want the answers to. I'm in it to observe people and solve the great puzzle, and 6/8 players are putting in the nudgework to make that happen. Thanks for that. If more people pressure me to act like a townie "should", then I will (as if I were scum) turn it on and fake interactions to appear just "proper townie" enough for people to leave me alone. I'll do it just for you, bae. But not for me.




No.

Ew. This whole post is terrible. It proceeds to say that Scum don't ever attempt to provide minor help, watch a situation go wrong, and then claim they helped. They do - I've seen this firsthand and I would wager most of the game has too.
It then devolves into the biggest pile of WIFOM I've seen in a while.
After that, it gives Nabe an out later on - if he starts taking heat and interacts badly, he can claim he was faking interactions as he said he would do.
Finally, it ends on a completely uncooperative note as he refuses to give reads (and then doubles down on it with Fand)

I'm sold. This guy needs to hang.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doop, whose alt-account are you?

 

[Dooplissity]

Doop, whose alt-account are you?

If I wanted that to be public information, I wouldn't be using at alt, now would I? That would ruin the fun. You could guess, though. That would amuse me.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Ew. This whole post is terrible. It proceeds to say that Scum don't ever attempt to provide minor help, watch a situation go wrong, and then claim they helped. They do - I've seen this firsthand and I would wager most of the game has too.

That's not what I said, however. I said that scum can't do that if they intend to win, not that they never do it. It's an eggshell strategy. Of course, I'm working under the basic assumption that you think I'm smart enough / care enough to employ 10 minutes of my time to come up with a tenable strategy.

After that, it gives Nabe an out later on - if he starts taking heat and interacts badly, he can claim he was faking interactions as he said he would do.

Let's spend as little time on bull**** as possible, by imagining the game you posit where I have an "out" for bad play.

- Nabe says, "I'll pretend I'm a brownie townie if people pressure me into it."
- Scum!Nabe gets pressured (presumably by Detective Inspector Dooplissity in this scenario)
- Scum!Nabe acts more townie to throw town off the scent
- Scum!Nabe takes heat for bad fake town play (nailed to the wall again by the Doopster)
- Scum!Nabe says, "It wasn't bad town play, it was bad fake town play!"
- Everybody says, "there's nothing we can do, he told us earlier he'd act like town..."
- justasplanned.jpg gets posted by Scum!Nabe in the scum chat, they all praise him
- Dooplissity frowns as he contemplates the failings of the justice system

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

EBWOP: nudge

 

[Vult Redux]

gheb why do you have me as town

also i think RR and Doopliss gave the same criticism about your post. I'd like to know what you think of that since i was thinking (i think i mentioned it somewhere) the same thing

#HBC | Nabe your like on my post was liking support for a gheb wagon..... right? if Dooplissity and #HBC | Red Ryu are on board like they should be (based on their posts - if they back out then they are #exposed as gheb's buddy ), we have enough votes to lynch. i for one am not going to let scum!gheb buddy me all game just to trick the rest of you into quicklynching me while I'm V/LA again. nope nope nope

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I approve.

Vote: Gheb

 

[ranmaru]

I am drinking with friends. I might not post tonight.

 

[Vult Redux]

I am drinking with friends. I might not post tonight.

who's your scumbuddy

 

[Maven89]

Deadline is set for midnight Thursday, central time

 

[Dooplissity]

That's not what I said, however. I said that scum can't do that if they intend to win, not that they never do it. It's an eggshell strategy. Of course, I'm working under the basic assumption that you think I'm smart enough / care enough to employ 10 minutes of my time to come up with a tenable strategy.

I don't know why you think Scum pretending to be helpful while really not being helpful is such an exotic strategy. It's one of the oldest, most basic tricks in the book. Sure, you can't do that for the entire game, but doing it on D1 is extremely common.

"I wouldn't X because X is bad scum play" is pure WIFOM and I'm not going to stand for it.

Let's spend as little time on bull**** as possible, by imagining the game you posit where I have an "out" for bad play.
- Nabe says, "I'll pretend I'm a brownie townie if people pressure me into it."
- Scum!Nabe gets pressured (presumably by Detective Inspector Dooplissity in this scenario)
- Scum!Nabe acts more townie to throw town off the scent
- Scum!Nabe takes heat for bad fake town play (nailed to the wall again by the Doopster)
- Scum!Nabe says, "It wasn't bad town play, it was bad fake town play!"
- Everybody says, "there's nothing we can do, he told us earlier he'd act like town..."
- justasplanned.jpg gets posted by Scum!Nabe in the scum chat, they all praise him
- Dooplissity frowns as he contemplates the failings of the justice system

I think it's a lot more subtle than that, and I'm really not fond of you creating an entire Sherlock Holmes story and putting words into my mouth in an attempt to discredit my case.

It's very simple psychology. When you tell someone to expect something, the mental impact of it is lessened. Telling the Town you will possibly fake interactions means that if/when you do, it jumps out less and is less likely to get called out in the thread (or even consciously noticed) in the first place.


Anyway, yeah, I can get behind Gheb wagon, but I think Nabe's a better target. If the rest of you get Gheb to L-1 without me, I'll swap for the hammer, but I'd rather be pushing Nabe rn.

 

[ranmaru]

who's your scumbuddy

I am town, and therefore have no scumbuddy. Would like your take on Ryu over this page and last page. Also would like your thoughts on recent Gheb too.

Vote: Gheb

I'd like some more reads then just Gheb. You have asked alot of questions in thread and I want to see where else your head is at.

 

[ranmaru]

Doop, whose alt-account are you?

Possibly someone who has not played with me before.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

also i think RR and Doopliss gave the same criticism about your post. I'd like to know what you think of that since i was thinking (i think i mentioned it somewhere) the same thing

There's no 'criticism' in these posts, at least not contstructive criticism. All they're saying is that they think Kouse's posts are newbTown. They're free to have that opinion if they want to.

But I don't have to share it. Especially if they don't even try telling me where specifically they see the town intent.

 

[ranmaru]

Gheb, read on Nabe and Ryu? Also, can you explain your read on me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nabe is a nuisance and lynching him is never a bad thing in my book. Ryu hasn't done a whole lot of note, he's pretty null to me.

 

[ranmaru]

Reads:

Nabe null scum lean, since his question to Spak about my questioning towards Fandango reads as malicious, only to open up a distraction of my slot before I even provide a conclusion on my questioning towards Fandango. More on Fandango below. Anyway, besides that, I really have trouble reading nabe and can't really garner a solid read on him. As someone once said, he's an enigma. Him supporting wagons of people doesn't help people read him either. Yet I guess we can think of reasons why he has not followed myself and only Vult and others.

Gheb read as null to me. His read on me has been pretty weird, as this is the first time I have seen him read me in this way. It has me skeptical, which is why I ask for his reasoning. Compared to everyone else this game, that was the most extreme town read that has been given. I'd like to see him flesh out why he reads me so strongly. His reasoning for his Kouse Scum resonate to me only because it is a reflection of what I said, and I still believe it, but I do consider other's criticism. I can see the points of Kouse genuinely thinking I was only out to take advantage of him, and I can understand some mistakes of his possibly being null because it can be mistakes that he wouldn't know how to fix as either alignment (since it is his first game). Finally, I don't see an actual reason to lynch Gheb besides Deadline scramble. I'm not convinced by Fandango, a current scumread who has yet to help me develop my read on him further. I'd rather see others like Vult explain why Gheb should go at this point. The only thing that is key to considering Gheb is his like towards Fandango's push/entrance to pushing me. In some way he may have agreed entirely or partially with what he was saying at the time. Even so, it can be possible he really was just lazy (regardless of alignment) and simply realized he changed his mind. This is why he is null to me.

Fandango, again, seems to have a nice gheb vote/read. Yet, I do not know about his reads on others, especially myself and Spak. He has never really gotten to a broader reads list even though he said he'd do it, and it's day of deadline. I think he is tunneling a bit on Gheb now and not really doing much else but questioning. Fandango seems to have a good vote on Gheb but I still have yet to see reads from on on others, which is concerning to me. I would like others who have played with a town and scum fandango before tell me how his play compares to past games. I am not sure how Dooplis actually sees why Fandango wanted Defen to answer again. He was wrong to disagree and somehow wanted a different answer to his question, which I can't imagine what answer he'd want Defen to pull out of her butt. If Fandango could construct a hypothetical answer that he was looking for that might help me understand his thought process here because again, to me, that question seemed to have been answered. I take back my like of Fandan's #181, because Gheb clarified why that wasn't the case. That was entirely my fault in creating that misunderstanding. I was not for the Fandango wagon at the time because I agreed with Vult that Gheb's hop was a bit weird, but his reasoning did alleviate it. I'd only notch Fan up to null-scum, since he has a good point on Gheb. I do not think Gheb is aligned with Fandango.

Ryu is still suspicious to me. His reactions seem a bit more than I'd expect from a Scumryu, but that could be my bias of never seeing a more invested Ryu scum. What still keeps me on him is his initial reasoning stating that he did not like my play earlier, without stating anything about it, at all. He supported it, in fact, since he was questioning along with me. If he had some problem he would question me, instead of liking my #71 and continuing pressure on Kouse. I also do no like his initial reads on myself, Nabe, and Gheb. Nabe/Gheb he relegates as PL's, and myself he puts as 'can die' which is very easy to do as scum and needs no committal. It shows no attempt at reading my play, therefore no interest to determine alignments, when you would want to do that as town, since you don't know alignments as town. Let us not forget him mixing up two players somehow, and now he switches a read.

Kouseband is null to me. I did not like his early play, but can see other's perspectives on this. The one thing I'm considering here is why he has yet to come back, and it makes me think that he may not be connected to another mafia or even cares to survive, due to the pressure he received. He's been prodded and has yet to post in game. This shows no sign of wanting to survive. I would think his partner would be yelling at him to get back in. If his partner was playing optimally he'd instruct his buddy to replace out as well. I wouldn't give him a pass for this but at the moment I see no reason to lynch him at the moment, but definitely need to replace his slot and read him as soon as that happens.

Dooplis, I feel has some weird reads. Me (early game), Nabe, Gheb (Recenty). Which makes me think town. Yet his read on Fandango is a little forced, I again, can't see why he sees Fandango's angle in questioning me. I have not disliked him at all this game, though. I think he's just wrong on Ryu especially. I can see his reasoning wrt Kouse, and that is more fleshed out. I have no problem with him.

Vult, I like. I had problems with him early game, but his play improved vastly and had some reads I liked. I am displeased with him not really trying as hard after Ryu posted last page though, as I can't really back a Gheb Lynch without any case especially since Gheb posted more content to read by. I think it's a little lazy of Vult and I'd like to see some case as soon as possible.

Spak I still like, only because of his predecessor and him not really letting me down. He had a dentist appointment so Spak is missing in action now, which sadly does not help me read him further. If he hadn't been busy I'd be worried about his alignment. His read on Kouse seems genuine, and seems like he believe in it, therefore I have no problem with him at the moment. I'd like an update from him as soon as possible as well. I would warn people to be wary of Spak though, as he can play scum well, even though he's a relatively new player.

 

[ranmaru]

I would think the most fruitful lynch toDay would be Ryu. Nabe/Gheb seem to be time crunch fall backs, and then I'd prefer a pool of Nabe/Gheb/Fandango being investigated. The pool will reduce by 1 if one of Nabe/Gheb is lynched. I don't think a Nabe/Gheb lynch would be the most optimal since Gheb is null to me, and Nabe is only null-scum. I cannot read Nabe solidly so I cannot with %100 confidence state a Nabe lynch is OK. I would need more time. Fandango still had his iffy start which I'm still wary of, and I retracted my dislike of his wagon due to a misunderstanding of his point against Gheb, and Gheb giving more content later on. Fandango I would also prefer more time to figure out, but I am not please with him not providing reads when he said he would. I also want to know what Vult's opinion of Ryu is.

That is my thoughts on the game state. It's 6:42AM. I'll be going to sleep now.

 

[ranmaru]

What was the purpose of saying this? (Context: Ran to Ryu re: Ran/Kouse)

To express my feelings of his post, it's easier to convey why I dislike Ryu's slot. Me stating he gets no points is because I want to show that that post gets him no credit for being a thought that has come much too late. I state it's fake since I don't believe he'd have that thought if he supported me early game, liked my #71, and did not even question me. He had me as null it seemed, but he never tried to develop a read on me either. Why did you ask me this? How do you read Fandango?

Nabe is a nuisance and lynching him is never a bad thing in my book. Ryu hasn't done a whole lot of note, he's pretty null to me.

I really want you to explain why you townread me that strongly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm really not getting how I'm in consideration for a lynch tbqh. I can understand why people think I'm null or something but even the idea that I'm supposedly a decent fall-back lynch seems really strange. If you just don't agree with how I read Kouse that's one thing but drawing a scum-read on me based on that seems pretty drastic and that's most, if not all, what seems to bother people about me. If it comes to fall-back lynches Nabe, Ryu and Kouse are still better choices and I'm not sure what Spak has done that makes him more worthy to keep around than me.

I'm not gonna change my stances on these issues just because you don't like them. I think Kouse is individually scummy and I can see where Ran is coming from when he says Fanny is individually scummy as well. I also see a connection between these two as I've pointed out before. It makes a lot of sense for me to look out for a Kouse/Fanny scumteam. It would make ZERO reason for me to not take a stab into that direction. No idea what you guys want from me.

Actually, it's quite hypocritical - on the one hand you guys accuse me of not trying to assume Kouse's point of a newbieTownie, on the other hand you yourself don't consider the possibility that I'm just pursuing my scumreads at all and just assume that I'm going after him because he's a new player.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vote: Kouseband

I'll stick with this unless you guys give me something better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd compromise Kouse only on the stance of he's not posting abd almost everyone has made a stance on him of some sort.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Still have near zero faith in him flipping scum but if needed later I'd switch for a deadline.