Montage's List of Stage Bans!

[Nikumatic]

Don't post these things until you've played the game, and you understand it, plz.

For the record, having PLAYED Brawl (and actually, I just finished unlocking all the big things this morning character and levelwise), I agree with a lot of his classifications. Until I can get my Wii working with my router again or get my friends over unfortunately, I can't do a whole lot of playtesting that's not against the CPU. Don't dismiss informed opinions entirely based on a lack of hands-on experience.

 

[Rakath]

I gotta laugh, I gotta, I'm non-competetive most of the time, and don't give much care to tourney rules except for the fact that as a Moderator for a forum I'll be running some tourneys... but I gotta laugh.

Pikachu's big effect on the tournament meta is his FREAKIN' HEADBUTT JAB!?

I'm sorry, but the most basic and simple moves, useless except for comboing into itself, is the big breaking stages move... Hilarious. Anyway, since as far as I know Thunders is out, I think in 1v1 it'll be fairly easy to avoid the walls of Onett and Stadium 1... I mean, in 2v2 you can team set-up to abuse that aspect of the field, but in 1v1 avoiding the wall and the rat shouldn't be that hard.

I will be testing all that's said in a month, and if concensus here is that those two are heavily trashed and banned I'm cool with it, but ya gotta admit its a lil' funny.

 

[Keitaro]

I hope you're not still banning those wall stages DM!! If so, I may have drink from the Iced Tea drink left downstairs since Saturday night again.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Magus420:
Trapping people with rapid A attacks works because it no longer pushes the attacker away from them when doing it. You CAN, however, ASDI into them when pinned in it so that you yourself push them away from the wall, and then ASDI back towards the wall where the attack no longer reaches and you can escape.

Is this true? If so, does it mean we can have the wall stages?

 

[Keitaro]

Shadow Moses Island: (MGS)
The walls on the side can be used to camp out the time limit. If you trap someone with a rapid natural against the wall, you can keep them there (Fox's DB spam, Pit's SB on some characters) for the entire Match. DI, Airdodging, and everything else has been tried for escaping.

Fox's db spam is near impossible to get someone into with the amazing DI in this game. The neutral a thing is disproven so that shouldn't be considered anymore but the walls cause random ******** KO's so it should be banned anyway.

Cornaria. (/cry)[/COLOR]
See: Onett. v_v

Corneria was allowed last time so it should definitely be fine this time. Onett was banned last time do to random kills by cars and the stage just being ******** in general.

Norfair.
At one point, you'll have to take shelter under a small, metroid-esque tenty thing. You have to fight to keep people out, in hopes to gain a stock advantage. In teams, there's not enough room for two people to be under, and one attack to keep the others out. You'll kill your teammates much too much. IMO it's a fair singles stage, because that lava wave will only happen every 3-4minutes.

This sounds confusing, show me next time.

Yoshi's Island (pipes):
Until a rapid shine-like approach is found, I'd say it's cool to release this ban. While the charatcers are a bit bigger, the stage feels more accessible.

This stage is also simply ********. It wasn't banned for rapid shine but for largely uneven floors and the breakable blocks in the middle that caused near instant death. Should be banned.

Pokemon Stadium.
The Walls in the Construction, and burning areas will provide the same crappy rapid A stalling. This will force players to ban this constantly, so I feel this should have a perma ban. Not everyone agrees. (Discussion in thread, please read before posting.)

This rapid a thing has been disproven by Eazy so shouldn't this be allowed now especially since the walls aren't there half the time anwyay?

The Summit: The New Ice Climber stage:
The bottom area doesn't have ledges. Characters with tether only recovery (Ivysaur, ZSS, Olimar) lose their recovery. Also has a wall.

Isn't the bottom slippery or something? If so it should be an automatic ban. The wall shouldn't matter as stated for Shadow Moses. If characters with Tether recover lose their recover it should be an auto ban also.

Being killed randomly accounted for alot of the stage bans last game, you gotta put that into account.

I remember when you were pending the Wario Ware stage. 0_o

You gotta see that stuff like that should be auto banned just by pics of the stage.

 

[Keitaro]

I personally think all walk-off stages should be banned un-less it's only a portion of a moving stage (Battle Ship Halberd). So, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Distant Plantet, Bridge of Eldin, and pretty much all walk-offs should be banned.

Yes Yes YES!!

This guy is completely right too. That's what they did in Melee also.

 

[Rakath]

But Auto-Walk off was banned because of Waveshining someone off the side of a stage. Without Wavedash there is no waveshine, and no waveshine means there is no reason to Auto-ban Walk-offs.

If Dedede Chaingrab is hard to DI out of, then we have a reason to ban walk-offs...

 

[D1]

Why isn't Skyworld banned? I played plenty of Wifi matches against formidable players where we end up falling through the clouds and SDing not being able to come back. WTF is up w/ that stage? You can't even attempt a dsmash (I'm well aware you can use the C stick as an alternative, but not everyone uses the c stick) or dtilt w/ worrying that you'll fall through. What if you're under heavy laser spam from Falco or Arrow spam from Pit and you're a Snake player trying to crawl underneath all that BS? You'll accidentally fall through as well. X_x

Pokemon Stadium's good IMO.

Leave Onett alone.

Let Shadow Moses breathe in competitive play until you realize the brokenness of it in tourney play.

Isn't it relatively easy to get accustomed to the annoying but new F-Zero stage?

I'll throw Onett, Shadow MOses, Corneria, and Yoshi's Island (Pipes) into the counterpick stage bin, I wouldn't want those stages on random.

Summit could suck horse d!ck I hate stages w/ stupid slippery crap and flying in the sky like PS2...if you don't like PS2 b/c of ppl flying in the air...why would you allow Summit? Plus there are the stupid icicles...and the big Fish. I mean its like a more hazardous Jungle Japes...X_x.

I wish Japes would get banned for once...even tho we can swin in this game now.

 

[dmbrandon]

I hope you're not still banning those wall stages DM!! If so, I may have drink from the Iced Tea drink left downstairs since Saturday night again.

DeDeDe can chaingrab against the wall as well. More testing needed, but it can happen

Why isn't Skyworld banned? I played plenty of Wifi matches against formidable players where we end up falling through the clouds and SDing not being able to come back. WTF is up w/ that stage? You can't even attempt a dsmash (I'm well aware you can use the C stick as an alternative, but not everyone uses the c stick) or dtilt w/ worrying that you'll fall through. What if you're under heavy laser spam from Falco or Arrow spam from Pit and you're a Snake player trying to crawl underneath all that BS? You'll accidentally fall through as well. X_x

Pokemon Stadium's good IMO.

Leave Onett alone.

Let Shadow Moses breathe in competitive play until you realize the brokenness of it in tourney play.

Isn't it relatively easy to get accustomed to the annoying but new F-Zero stage?

I'll throw Onett, Shadow MOses, Corneria, and Yoshi's Island (Pipes) into the counterpick stage bin, I wouldn't want those stages on random.

Summit could suck horse d!ck I hate stages w/ stupid slippery crap and flying in the sky like PS2...if you don't like PS2 b/c of ppl flying in the air...why would you allow Summit? Plus there are the stupid icicles...and the big Fish. I mean its like a more hazardous Jungle Japes...X_x.

I wish Japes would get banned for once...even tho we can swin in this game now.

Sorry, but from this, you've done nothing but show me your ignorance of tournament play. I can't take your advice into account.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

DeDeDe can chaingrab against the wall as well. More testing needed, but it can happen



Sorry, but from this, you've done nothing but show me your ignorance of tournament play. I can't take your advice into account.

You can roll out of Dedede's chaingrab. It is only slightly better in wall stages.

Edit: Since you can roll out, you can probably jab as well if DDD doesn't shield fast enough, though I'm not sure. If jab cancelling is in, that would mean a safe getaway by jabbing->roll/spot dodge.

 

[dmbrandon]

You can roll out of Dedede's chaingrab. It is only slightly better in wall stages.

Edit: Since you can roll out, you can probably jab as well if DDD doesn't shield fast enough, though I'm not sure. If jab cancelling is in, that would mean a safe getaway by jabbing->roll/spot dodge.

I'm about 80% sure you have to reach the end of the slide before you can roll/jab.

 

[Kruton]

I agree with most of it. I think you're [to thread creator] making to big of a deal out of walls though...

 

[dmbrandon]

Perhaps I am, but the first tourn is in a week or so, so I guess we'll find out.

 

[Kruton]

We had a tourney at TGP on Tuesday, and no one seemed to use the walls to lock people in (no more than you would in any fighter). This was after I told them about Fox's block in too.

I would love to have Shadow Moses and Corneria available in tourneys. I can imagine walls being taken advantage of on higher levels of play, but at the same time characters can be aware of it.

 

[Fonz]

Onett was banned last time do to random kills by cars and the stage just being ******** in general.

Onett was one of those bans that came along years after the competitive scene had been established that I stongly opposed and still do. First of all the cars were pretty minor. In melee you can simply hold down and you bounce around down there for all but the black car. Since the black car spikes you can just jump before it hits you and you'll be fine. The other option is to notice the giant yellow warning that appears before a car comes and use that time to get out of the pit. You have a good 5 seconds to do so. The likes of Bowser can easily get out in time. It was first banned after MLG NY in the spring of 06 due to a teams match between KDJ/Tope and an opponent who I can't remember. Basically for the entire match Tope ran away while KDJ fought 2v1 in the middle. While they won the match, this is generally an awful strategy if you teammate isn't KDJ. When one partner runs the entire time their teammate is open to a 2 on 1 and should hemorrhage stock. The stage was banned after this for its campability. While it may be campable in 1v1 matches. For 2v2, the reason it was initially banned, this certainly isn't an issue. 1 person running away is not a broken teams strategy. MLG doesn't always know what stages are best (Great Bay? Really?).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I'm about 80% sure you have to reach the end of the slide before you can roll/jab.

I.T.P. has confirmed that you can roll out of the CG. In melee, roll became invincible on exactly the same frame that many jabs came out (frame 3) so it would def. work, but Brawl is a new game, so this will have to be tested.

Onett was one of those bans that came along years after the competitive scene had been established that I stongly opposed and still do. First of all the cars were pretty minor. In melee you can simply hold down and you bounce around down there for all but the black car. Since the black car spikes you can just jump before it hits you and you'll be fine. The other option is to notice the giant yellow warning that appears before a car comes and use that time to get out of the pit. You have a good 5 seconds to do so. The likes of Bowser can easily get out in time. It was first banned after MLG NY in the spring of 06 due to a teams match between KDJ/Tope and an opponent who I can't remember. Basically for the entire match Tope ran away while KDJ fought 2v1 in the middle. While they won the match, this is generally an awful strategy if you teammate isn't KDJ. When one partner runs the entire time their teammate is open to a 2 on 1 and should hemorrhage stock. The stage was banned after this for its campability. While it may be campable in 1v1 matches. For 2v2, the reason it was initially banned, this certainly isn't an issue. 1 person running away is not a broken teams strategy. MLG doesn't always know what stages are best (Great Bay? Really?).

That, and the the fact that fox was overall broken on onett.

Waveshines offstage, against walls, low ceiling for uairs and usmashes, camping, and no edgeguarding make fox nearly undefeatable on onett.

BTW, the cars are on a timer, so anytime during the match, you can know when the next car is coming.

 

[Fonz]

Falco does quite fine against fox on onett. While it is certainly an advantageous stage for space animals, they are not invincible there.

Those reasons were used after the initial banning, but a campy sheik was the initial reason. =)

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wh-what it we just banned Fox's wall shine infinite? =O

 

[thesage]

You have *some* valid points but you certainly aren't speaking for the whole community here. You seem to confuse "banning" with "making counterpick." There is a difference. Ever tried to play Ness in Melee on Japes? No? Well it pretty much swept him away.

LOL @ Ness losing on jungle japes. The water helped his recovery in my opinion. But with the New swimming thing, he's definitely gimped. This was my favorite counterpick for both Peach and Ness.

Yo, can you test if Ness can absorb the guns on Corneria while he's camping them?

Is it really easy for characters to get pinned against walls? Do they have an equivalent to waveshining that can force other characters to walls? I know about Falco's lock lazar but I'm talking about that jab combo infinites. Though if there is a way to set up the lock laser then that insta bans all stages with permanent walls.

 

[dmbrandon]

LOL @ Ness losing on jungle japes. The water helped his recovery in my opinion. But with the New swimming thing, he's definitely gimped. This was my favorite counterpick for both Peach and Ness.

Yo, can you test if Ness can absorb the guns on Corneria while he's camping them?

Is it really easy for characters to get pinned against walls? Do they have an equivalent to waveshining that can force other characters to walls? I know about Falco's lock lazar but I'm talking about that jab combo infinites. Though if there is a way to set up the lock laser then that insta bans all stages with permanent walls.

It's called camping. If you mess up once, you're screwed. That and dedede can chaingrab against the wall. v_v

 

[Endless Nightmares]

That and dedede can chaingrab against the wall. v_v

Do we know this for sure or are we just basing things off Ikki's videos >_>

 

[thesage]

It's called camping. If you mess up once, you're screwed. That and dedede can chaingrab against the wall. v_v

LOL, Can't believe I forgot about camping. I love camping lol, but just camping the walls is weird... then again it's a new game... I think I'll wait until I have the game until I say anything, but some stages are obviously banned (Jungle Falls or w/e).

*cough* plzplzplzplzplzplzplzplzyoshipipesbannedplzplzplzplzplzplzplz *cough*

And DM could you please test if Ness can camp the guns on Corneria and heal with them by standing on them?

 

[Sanu]

I hope you're not still banning those wall stages DM!! If so, I may have drink from the Iced Tea drink left downstairs since Saturday night again.

Why are people acting like this list is final? These guys are just players too, their not some administration team or some ****. lol @ their opinions, they're ********.

See my reasons previously posted.

 

[dmbrandon]

Why are people acting like this list is final? These guys are just players too, their not some administration team or some ****. lol @ their opinions, they're ********.

See my reasons previously posted.

You're a bit tooooo cocky:

MM me. You can have stage picks. 100$ plz.

 

[dmbrandon]

I.T.P. has confirmed that you can roll out of the CG. In melee, roll became invincible on exactly the same frame that many jabs came out (frame 3) so it would def. work, but Brawl is a new game, so this will have to be tested.



That, and the the fact that fox was overall broken on onett.

Waveshines offstage, against walls, low ceiling for uairs and usmashes, camping, and no edgeguarding make fox nearly undefeatable on onett.

BTW, the cars are on a timer, so anytime during the match, you can know when the next car is coming.

Then you can grab them after the roll is done.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Then you can grab them after the roll is done.

Because you're still stunned from the jab. Uh-huh, exactly.

If they don't jab and just buffer a roll, then you have to predict the direction of the roll. Also, they might sidestep and grab you while you're lagging from your missed grab.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I do not own the game so there is probably something else that I am missing but I think that spear pillar could be counter-pickable. The lasers charge for a couple seconds, so you can dodge them, and it seems that every other effect affects each character equally. Camping would also be impossible because there is a laser that goes through the entire lower part and sometimes the ceiling of the lower part will break.

 

[zestypizza]

I'm not to up on the tournament scene, (I went to two melee ones, and won one) but can someone explain what a counter-pick is?

 

[Rakath]

Counterpick is when the stage isn't part of the 'neutral random' but you can pick it to handicap your opponent. It's an intermediary between Legal and banned. I think I got that right.

 

[dmbrandon]

Counterpick is when the stage isn't part of the 'neutral random' but you can pick it to handicap your opponent. It's an intermediary between Legal and banned. I think I got that right.

Textbook. ^_^

 

[S2]

I agree with some of your prospective bannings, but I don't think many of the stages you listed should be banned until they get some fair tournament time.


Many of Melee's stages got banned because 1 or 2 characters had such a huge advantage on them (or an exploit) that essentially the stage was unplayable at tournament level because it was practically an instant win.

Stages with hazards aren't banned for not being neutral. Even radical stages - that's why we have counterpicking.

Even "neutral" stages in Melee favored certain characters simply based upon the size of the stage/walls/ceilings.

If a stage has a ridiculous amount of hazards, but is evenly fair for both players, then its the player's fault for not knowing how to battle on that given stage.

Of course, by nature most of the ridiculous stages get banned because they have an exploit on them. But its the exploit and not the hazards that gets a stage banned.

 

[Nilok]

Currently I think it is pointless to announce "Banned Stages" before the game has been released. True we are getting information now from people who are playing it now, however creating a list based on what really is minimal information may in the end backfire, and thing may change quickly when more and more people get their hands on it and discovered things that may make some of your points mute.

Really, we need to calm down and create our lists after a month or so after Brawl comes out, when people start to pull out some of the advanced tricks from each of the characters and game play.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I agree with some of your prospective bannings, but I don't think many of the stages you listed should be banned until they get some fair tournament time.


Many of Melee's stages got banned because 1 or 2 characters had such a huge advantage on them (or an exploit) that essentially the stage was unplayable at tournament level because it was practically an instant win.

Stages with hazards aren't banned for not being neutral. Even radical stages - that's why we have counterpicking.

Even "neutral" stages in Melee favored certain characters simply based upon the size of the stage/walls/ceilings.

If a stage has a ridiculous amount of hazards, but is evenly fair for both players, then its the player's fault for not knowing how to battle on that given stage.

Of course, by nature most of the ridiculous stages get banned because they have an exploit on them. But its the exploit and not the hazards that gets a stage banned.

Not quite true. If there are too many hazards, they interfere with the gameplay. Also, if the hazards are random, then you can't really counter them that well, meaning *random* hazards tend to get a stage banned. Look at Icicle Mountain, and why it was banned.

 

[MetalGearLink]

Just gonna post some observations.

The Green Hill Zone random floor collapse happens very quickly and with no visible prior warning. Ness or Lucas would probably have no chance of recovering from that. Even the Peach in the posted video had literally no chance to react to it at all.

Frigate Orpheon. You have about two seconds to react, and you can easily be killed if you're trying to recover. Again, I could see the stage flip really screwing up a Lucas/Ness Recovery.

Jungle Japes. Water forces you into a swimming animation for a few seconds. You can't jump out as fast as you could in melee and it's alot easier to die from it now. It's a lot more unforgiving than the racers on the Fzero stage.

Rainbow Cruise. Characters with tether recoveries can get screwed. You can no longer jump through the floating blocks as well.

Picto Chat. The hazards are rampant and do an extreme amount of damage and knockback.

Opponents having an equal chance to get destroyed by the stage may be fair, but that doesn't make it competitive. The stages in brawl are a lot less forgiving. The banned stages in Melee were mostly banned because of exploits, not because of random nonsense or painful hazards ****** your characters.

hazards don't ban stages, frigate orpheon is fine, rainbow cruise was legal in melee, so no reason yo ban it now

 

[MetalGearLink]

on one side we see people who doesn't want any stage banned...they have not enought tornuamente experience.....READ A LOT ABOUT WHY THEY ARE BANNED, IN A TOURNAMENT NO LUCK SHOULD BE INVOLVED

on the other side some people want every hastage that moves or has hazards to be baned...just because they dont't like them....JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE A STAGE DOSN'T MEAN IT SHOULD BE BANNED, IF YOU SUCK AT MOOVING LEVELS GO TO PRACTICE, HAZADS DON'T BAN STAGES UNFAIR ADVANTAGES AND RANDOMNES DO, IT YOU WANT THE HALBERT BANNED FOR THAT EASY TO PREDICT LASER, THEN PRACTICE HOW YO AVOID IT

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

I honestly hope Spear Pillar doesn't get banned. I mean, I know it's likely as all heck (reverse controls with Palkia), but it's such a beautiful stage with epic music.

 

[KishSquared]

This is KishPrime...oops.

I am completely unconvinced that Rapid-A spamming is worth banning stages for.

Mushroomy Kingdom will unfortunately have to be treated separately, which will make tournaments complicated. The 1-2 version is horrible, but the 1-1 version (so far) makes for a nice moving stage.

I have not had any problems with tether recovery on Electroplankton, and I actually still think the stage may work competitively.

Interesting opinions.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I am completely unconvinced that Rapid-A spamming is worth banning stages for.

Mushroomy Kingdom will unfortunately have to be treated separately, which will make tournaments complicated. The 1-2 version is horrible, but the 1-1 version (so far) makes for a nice moving stage.

I have not had any problems with tether recovery on Electroplankton, and I actually still think the stage may work competitively.

Interesting opinions.

Rapid A spamming has been confirmed to be escapable, so yeah, it's not a valid reason anymore.

 

[Collective of Bears]

What of Distant Planet?

 

[zestypizza]

what about the laser lock with Falco?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3UTpaKhElhk